Ceiling insulation between floors R19 vs Roxul - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 01-28-2017, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Ceiling insulation between floors R19 vs Roxul

I'm debating on putting insulation in my basement ceiling before closing it up with Sheetrock. I have done so much reading on the subject that I'm more confused now then before. The area is 22x26 and will be a multi function family/tv/music area. I would like to limit noise transmission from going to the upstairs and from coming downstairs. I don't have the height and budget to go all out with clips/channel and DD/GG. I'm looking to possibly put insulation in the joist cavity and cover with 5/8 rock and at a later date add a second layer of Sheetrock when funds are available if it would be worth it.
I have read that using the cheapest fiberglass will give the same result as roxul safe and sound and it has been recommended to use R19 fiberglass. In my area roxul at one layer and R19 is a $30 difference, so pricewise it's a wash. What I'm not sure about is if r19 is equal to 2 layers of roxul or one layer of roxul when it comes to sound. If it's two layers of roxul then the fiberglass is the cheap way to go if it's comparable to one layer then I would go with roxul.

Also what has been anybody's experience with just using roxul SNS or r19 in there ceiling with just Sheetrock?

The ceiling also has recessed lights so I also wonder if any insulation would be worth the time and effort. Any input would be much appreciated. Thanks.
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post #2 of 18 Old 01-29-2017, 05:19 AM
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http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/ Is a great website to check out. I'm afraid this is an all or nothing situation when attempting this. Your recessed light should have backer boxes if you are going " all the way" with soundproofing. As for the insulation there is a chart somwhere that shows data for which is best. If you go only half way with this you are still going to hear footfall noise from upstairs and you will definately hear low bass frequencies from your room to the rest of the house . For myself, im in the country, no close neighbours to worry about and when its movies time, everyone will be listening whether they are in the room or not. I want to spend my $ in other areas of my theater. Hope this helps and doesnt confuse you anymore lol. I'm sure more seasoned members will chime in.
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post #3 of 18 Old 01-29-2017, 08:42 AM
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I'm in the same boat, I have will have a probably 8 canned lights in the tray of the ceiling, is it worth it to even insulate between the floors?
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post #4 of 18 Old 01-29-2017, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies guys.. Yea I'm setting my expectations that I would still hear foot fall noises and what not but that would only be an issue during the day and I don't get to chill and watch tv with 3 little ones running about anyways. I'm more worried about the night time when the kids are asleep. At that time there will be no one walking around up above. I know I won't be able to blast anything at high levels but if I could watch tv at a somewhat decent level to hear the speach, play an acoustic guitar and listen to some music I would be ok with that. Unfortunately I can't do the "all in approach" but looking to get the best it could be with what I have to work with. If the fluffy R19 is better than one layer of roxul then that's what I'm going to stuff in the ceilings. If it's the same then I would do the roxul. I used roxul comfort batt for the walls that are framed at the foundation and I liked the way it installed.
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post #5 of 18 Old 01-30-2017, 05:17 PM
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The difference in insulation is minor compared to other techniques. While denser insulations will provide some extra absorption and it comes in various densities from 2-9 pounds per cubic foot. In theory the denser one would be better for sound absorption and would go to a lower frequency. This is great if we are using them for acoustic panels. In this application sound is mainly transmitted by vibration from the floor above to the ceiling joist and through the ceiling drywall. There are 3 main method of reducing this transmission. One is decoupling it where the ceiling is not in contact with the floor above, this is not typically practical except for room in room construction. Two is add mass to make it harder to vibrate the structure and this is where the second layer of drywall and materials like mass loaded vinyl are used. Lastly is damping or reducing the vibration by using something like green glue, clips, etc.
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post #6 of 18 Old 01-30-2017, 05:39 PM
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I am finishing our basement and had the drywall professionally hung and muddeded/tapeded last week. I put R19 one layer vapor against the subfloor and a second with the vapor barrier facing down to the floor of the basement. This left what a 3-6in gap between the two. When the guys were hanging the drywall you could tell the screws/drills were quieter compared to the other parts of the basement. Not drastic but a slight noticeable difference.

I am in the same boat as doing it right would about double the budget of the entire basement. This phase of the HT was more define the space, put some decent entry/budget reviewed gear in it and in a phase 2 do some proper sound proofing. Was talking with my aunt over the holidays and where she works she does industrial sound proofing and like many of the pros on this board it was all about decoupling, weight, snot, and what have you.

If there is a movie it will be either all of us (wife, 3yr old daughter who is a sound sleeper and myself) or the two of us after the little one goes to bed and neither of us enjoy SUPER loud, would take quieter clear/crisp sound of loud any day. If the daughter when she is older is down there I kind of want to know it...not to be mean but you know what I mean.
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post #7 of 18 Old 01-30-2017, 05:53 PM
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I'm with Glamboy and plan to spend more on sound quality than isolation. I am taking a few measures that should help though. I decoupled the majority of the ceiling with a drop ceiling, and I'm installing R30 in the floor joists. Above the joists I've got 3/4" T&G then 1&1/2" of gypcrete for the second floor. The drop ceiling is made with 2X6's, so I will add a layer of R19 in there. I also ran 2X2's on the inside the floor joists and inserted 1/2" drywall. This was mainly for above my star ceiling, but I'm going to go ahead and do it throughout.

My brother and I helped each other build our houses. His was first and we didn't install insulation in some of the interior walls, and we made sure to install it in mine because of some of the noise transference that he gets. Simple R13 insulation in the walls made a noticeable difference versus nothing, so I don't necessarily agree with the "all or nothing" stance. I can't compare the Roxul with the standard fiberglass insulation, but I have had a comparison between some and none, and there is no way I'd just leave them open.
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DIY In Progress Home Theater Build: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...tic-build.html
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post #8 of 18 Old 01-30-2017, 09:08 PM
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I don't want to give you the impression that no insulation is needed, no it absolutely is! I the cavity is left empty it will have resonances. The difference between using regular pink fluffy stuff and roxul or other mineral fiber is not as a big of an improvement as adding a second layer of drywall and green glue. If your budget allows certainly use Roxul or other mineral fiber, it is slightly better. But if you are going for bang for the buck then use the pink fluffy stuff and use the extra money to add another layer of drywall, preferably with green glue. But even another layer of drywall alone adds quite a bit of mass which will have a greater effect than the other insulations.
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post #9 of 18 Old 01-31-2017, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klamnoos View Post
I'm debating on putting insulation in my basement ceiling before closing it up with Sheetrock. I have done so much reading on the subject that I'm more confused now then before. The area is 22x26 and will be a multi function family/tv/music area. I would like to limit noise transmission from going to the upstairs and from coming downstairs. I don't have the height and budget to go all out with clips/channel and DD/GG. I'm looking to possibly put insulation in the joist cavity and cover with 5/8 rock and at a later date add a second layer of Sheetrock when funds are available if it would be worth it.
I have read that using the cheapest fiberglass will give the same result as roxul safe and sound and it has been recommended to use R19 fiberglass. In my area roxul at one layer and R19 is a $30 difference, so pricewise it's a wash. What I'm not sure about is if r19 is equal to 2 layers of roxul or one layer of roxul when it comes to sound. If it's two layers of roxul then the fiberglass is the cheap way to go if it's comparable to one layer then I would go with roxul.

Also what has been anybody's experience with just using roxul SNS or r19 in there ceiling with just Sheetrock?

The ceiling also has recessed lights so I also wonder if any insulation would be worth the time and effort. Any input would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Buy whatever is cheaper and two layers of R-19 do not provide any improvement over a single layer according to Ted at the soundproofingcompany.com. As for not having the budget to do it right, I have to ask if it is the budget or the desire to deal with the extra effort. I say that because if you are already talking about adding a second layer of drywall at some point down the road, then you are already deferring the cost of drywall and green glue. The only extra cost now would be clips and hat channel. Hat channel is incredibly cheap, and the basic clip is like $1.25 -$1.50 per clip and you won't need a ton. If you look into it, I think you'll find the cost is probably not prohibitive and it would be significantly better than what you are planning now.
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post #10 of 18 Old 01-31-2017, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klamnoos View Post
Thanks for the replies guys.. Yea I'm setting my expectations that I would still hear foot fall noises and what not but that would only be an issue during the day and I don't get to chill and watch tv with 3 little ones running about anyways. I'm more worried about the night time when the kids are asleep. At that time there will be no one walking around up above. I know I won't be able to blast anything at high levels but if I could watch tv at a somewhat decent level to hear the speach, play an acoustic guitar and listen to some music I would be ok with that. Unfortunately I can't do the "all in approach" but looking to get the best it could be with what I have to work with. If the fluffy R19 is better than one layer of roxul then that's what I'm going to stuff in the ceilings. If it's the same then I would do the roxul. I used roxul comfort batt for the walls that are framed at the foundation and I liked the way it installed.
If you are worried about waking anyone, treat yourself to a kick-*ss set of headphones lol....with a long 1/4" cable. For the acoustic guitar? You might have to strum a little quieter
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post #11 of 18 Old 02-01-2017, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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So one layer of the roxul would be better or equal to one layer of the R19?
I wouldn't be saving anything using the R19 instead of one layer of roxul.
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post #12 of 18 Old 02-01-2017, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I seen Teds posts where he recommends the R19 being that it's cheaper than the roxul but couldn't find if he's comparing that to one layer of roxul or two. In my case a bag of R19 is the same as a bag of roxul with a 10sqft difference. I would have to get one extra bag of the roxul vs the R19 so it would only be a $32 difference. So price wise not much a difference at one layer.
As far as clips and channel go I would imagine I would have to also do the walls as well as ceiling and build out boxes for the recessed cans and put a solid door going to the upstairs. I didn't get to price it all out but from experience all those little bits add up quick and then the budget is dead and the project is delayed. I will take a look at the pricing to get an idea of how much more it would add. My ceiling height is only at 7'7" concrete to joists. With the channels/clips I'd prob loose ruffly 2 1/2" and then more depending on what goes on the floor I'd loose even more which also makes me think to not do the channels/clips.
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post #13 of 18 Old 02-01-2017, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Ha yea a nice pair of headphones would def be a cheaper way.
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post #14 of 18 Old 02-02-2017, 09:43 AM
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I am in exactly the same situation as you, not able to go all in - but still want to dampen the sound transmission, and trying to decide if Roxul vs Fiberglass is worth it. I was kind of leaning towards Roxul because I thought I read it doesn't actually insulate, which means I won't make the above room colder by not letting the heat rise from the basement. I am considering adding some drywall on the bottom of the floor above between the floor joist. This at least will add some mass to the floor and hopefully help.

Let us all know what you decide and the outcome of it all. I am a couple months away from drywall, so I would be interested to know
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post #15 of 18 Old 05-04-2019, 09:54 PM
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Examples of ceiling sound insulation

I know this is an old thread, but I just came across these ceiling sound proofing diagrams that I thought were extremely helpful.

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com...ofing-ceilings

To help answer the original poster's question, there's this article by John Brandt who tested the difference. His general conclusion was that mineral wool and fiberglass were about the same. Both help 6 STC. Mineral wool is slightly better, but in his opinion, it's not worth the extra money. If they cost the same, it sounds like mineral wool is the way to go.

Quote:
At low frequencies, the increase in the transmission loss of a partition obtained by adding absorptive
material inside its cavity is equivalent regardless of the material used. Above 250 Hz, mineral fiber and
blown cellulose give the best results; mineral fiber insulation provides slightly better transmission losses
than glass fiber, especially around the wall panel’s resonant frequency. Please note again that the
improved transmission loss occurs above 250Hz, and in a normally high STL partition built to contain
music this gain will be imperceptible, therefore using denser material at higher cost is NOT necessary.

With the exception of sprayed cellulose, the best transmission losses were obtained when the entire
cavity of the partitions were filled with a sound absorptive material. When the entire cavity is filled,
caution must be taken not to use a material that is too dense or too thick otherwise a mechanical
coupling could occur between the two sides of the partition which could result in a degradation of the
sound isolating performance of the partition, as was observed in the case of a partition whose cavity
was filled with sprayed‐on cellulose. Never compress fiberglass into a partition cavity.

Last edited by Steve017; 05-04-2019 at 10:07 PM.
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post #16 of 18 Old 05-04-2019, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve017 View Post
I know this is an old thread, but I just came across these ceiling sound proofing diagrams that I thought were extremely helpful.

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com...ofing-ceilings

To help answer the original poster's question, there's this article by John Brandt who tested the difference. His general conclusion was that mineral wool and fiberglass were about the same. Both help 6 STC. Mineral wool is slightly better, but in his opinion, it's not worth the extra money. If they cost the same, it sounds like mineral wool is the way to go.
That article I quoted gave me confidence that the pink insulation is just as good. But then I read this thread where people say Rockwool is definitely better: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...l-vs-pink.html

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post #17 of 18 Old 06-06-2020, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve017 View Post
That article I quoted gave me confidence that the pink insulation is just as good. But then I read this thread where people say Rockwool is definitely better: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...l-vs-pink.html

Steve, what did you finally do? Can you share your outcome.
I am in the same boat. I almost bought roxul. But after reading the nice article by (https://www.jhbrandt.net/wp-content/...-The-Quest.pdf), I am inclined to use pink fiber glass and two 5/8 drywall with green glue in between for my celling in my basement.
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post #18 of 18 Old 06-06-2020, 03:30 PM
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Steve, what did you finally do? Can you share your outcome.
I ended up going with the Level 2 option illustrated by the Soundproofing Company (here), which is basically the "pink fiber glass and two 5/8 drywall with green glue in between" that you mention, plus a hat channel. The hat channel adds some labor, but otherwise isn't all that expensive. So I'm glad I included that.



Initially, I was going to do Level 3 with sheetrock in the tops of the joist spaces as well, but too much of my ceiling had stuff in the joist spaces, and so that would have been too much work. Plus, I have an open stairway that I can't fully fix, so I knew if I overdid the ceiling, it would just be a waste of money.

I'm happy with how the ceiling turned out. Prior to the ceiling being done, it was hard to tell if noise was coming through the floor or up the stairs. Now it's obvious that it's coming up the stairs. That's not ideal, but at least I have peace of mind to know that I did the best that was reasonable. I'm glad I didn't spend several hundred more dollars on Roxul.
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