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post #91 of 215 Old 08-02-2017, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Curves View Post
What are you using for "reality"/"reference"?
That's the problem with different AVR and Calibration test tones - they all produce a different result.
On my Emotiva XMC-1 if I use the test tones the rear channels are too low.
I now use the REW test tones. I wonder why there can't be a standard test tone everyone uses?
There may be differences in philosophy, in purpose, and there may be lack of understanding or skill in the matter.

When it comes to rear speaker levels, that's a very subjective thing. Are you concluding they are too low based on how movies sound, or based on how the test signal sounds? The test signals should have the same subjective loudness across every speaker.

REW is a fantastic tool, I use it a lot. Unfortunately, it does not have the option to output bandlimited pink noise. Wideband noise leads to trouble in level calibration (but it's essential for equalization -- and that's REW's mission), so I do not recommend REW, or the AIX or Atmos test discs for the last word in channel balance calibrations. You can improve the measurement consistency from wideband pink by using A-wtg on the SPL meter instead of C-wtg, but then the absolute levels will be off a couple dB. That does not matter when you are trying to achieve channel balance. Check that out.

The internally generated noise is supposed to conform to bandlimiting defined by either Dolby or THX, which are functionally equivalent, but I have seen cases where the noise is wildly different. Not sure what XMC-1 outputs, but the core DSPs are Texas Instruments, and that at least means the hardware has exactly the right noise option available to it (among a variety). Since you have REW, turn on the XMC-1 noise, and look at it with the RTA mode. You should see a "haystack" noise spectrum spanning 500 Hz to 2 kHz, roughly. Then compare that with the wideband noise. Very different. If it is indeed bandlimited, that would be the more accurate reference. No need to read further unless the noise is not bandlimited.

Do you have any DVDs or BDs with a THX logo? If so, those carry a feature called THX Optimode or THX Optimizer. The instructions differ, but you can play those signals and compare the results to the others. I find they are very accurate. I also have the Spears & Munsil 2nd Ed Blu-ray test disc. Their noise signals are textbook perfect, and easy to use. Bit of an extravagance unless you want video test signals, too. There's a lot of other test discs out there. Most have errors of varying degrees.
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Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"

Last edited by Roger Dressler; 09-06-2017 at 11:57 PM. Reason: corrected noise BW comment
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post #92 of 215 Old 08-02-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
There may be differences in philosophy, in purpose, and there may be lack of understanding or skill in the matter.

When it comes to rear speaker levels, that's a very subjective thing. Are you concluding they are too low based on how movies sound, or based on how the test signal sounds? The test signals should have the same subjective loudness across every speaker.

REW is a fantastic tool, I use it a lot. Unfortunately, it does not have the option to output bandlimited pink noise. Wideband noise leads to trouble in level calibration (but it's essential for equalization -- and that's REW's mission), so I do not recommend REW, or the AIX or Atmos test discs for the last word in channel balance calibrations. You can improve the measurement consistency from wideband pink by using A-wtg on the SPL meter instead of C-wtg, but then the absolute levels will be off a couple dB. That does not matter when you are trying to achieve channel balance. Check that out.

The internally generated noise is supposed to conform to bandlimiting defined by either Dolby or THX, which are functionally equivalent, but I have seen cases where the noise is wildly different. Not sure what XMC-1 outputs, but the core DSPs are Texas Instruments, and that at least means the hardware has exactly the right noise option available to it (among a variety). Since you have REW, turn on the XMC-1 noise, and look at it with the RTA mode. You should see a "haystack" noise spectrum spanning 500 Hz to 2 kHz, roughly. Then compare that with the wideband noise. Very different. If it is indeed bandlimited, that would be the more accurate reference. No need to read further unless the noise is not bandlimited.

Do you haven any DVDs or BDs with a THX logo? If so, those carry a feature called THX Optimode or THX Optimizer. The instructions differ, but you can play those signals and compare the results to the others. I find they are very accurate. I also have the Spears & Munsil 2nd Ed Blu-ray test disc. Their noise signals are textbook perfect, and easy to use. Bit of an extravagance unless you want video test signals, too. There's a lot of other test discs out there. Most have errors of varying degrees.
The ONLY way I have been able to accurately validate speaker levels, is with frequency sweeps, usually smoothed to 1/3 octave. OmniMic provides the outputs for a 5.1 system but by using the digital inputs of my processor, I am able to check and adjust every channel. And for movies, getting each channel calibrated with that level of granularity does seem to improve the whole immersion thing.

Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][
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post #93 of 215 Old 08-03-2017, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN arrived/installed today. Very clean innards, nice sheetmetal. Looks like pride of workmanship.

Copied the SSP-800 EQ/gain/delay settings for the dual subwoofer channels into the 2x2 plugin.

The internal level meters helped me readjust the gain structure to prevent overdriving it. Needed to drop the SSP output and add 10 dB gain in the sub amps. Had plenty of range available.

Then ran ARC so the AVM 60 could operate on top.

I did notice a couple of times the EQ stopped working. Sound was still present, just no EQ applied. Yet the app showed it was still on. Finally realized the unit has switched away from Preset 1 to Preset 3 (not in use). But why? I caught it switch while I was changing tracks on my AppleTV with its tiny remote.

Two remedies adopted:
1) Put the unit into the equipment rack, out of the line of fire for the IR remotes.
2) Programmed all 4 presets with the same settings. Now it doesn't matter which is used.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #94 of 215 Old 08-04-2017, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN arrived/installed today. Very clean innards, nice sheetmetal. Looks like pride of workmanship.

Copied the SSP-800 EQ/gain/delay settings for the dual subwoofer channels into the 2x2 plugin.

The internal level meters helped me readjust the gain structure to prevent overdriving it. Needed to drop the SSP output and add 10 dB gain in the sub amps. Had plenty of range available.

Then ran ARC so the AVM 60 could operate on top.

I did notice a couple of times the EQ stopped working. Sound was still present, just no EQ applied. Yet the app showed it was still on. Finally realized the unit has switched away from Preset 1 to Preset 3 (not in use). But why? I caught it switch while I was changing tracks on my AppleTV with its tiny remote.

Two remedies adopted:
1) Put the unit into the equipment rack, out of the line of fire for the IR remotes.
2) Programmed all 4 presets with the same settings. Now it doesn't matter which is used.
That was a fast install. So you set the miniDSP PEQ's for the two sets of subs based upon the settings you had in the SSP-800 (which has dual sub outs?), then ran ARC. So, how does it sound? And now you plan to experiment to see how differently you can drive the subs with some additional tuning of the miniDSP?

That thing is one cool device, is it not?

Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][
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post #95 of 215 Old 08-04-2017, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
The ONLY way I have been able to accurately validate speaker levels, is with frequency sweeps, usually smoothed to 1/3 octave. OmniMic provides the outputs for a 5.1 system but by using the digital inputs of my processor, I am able to check and adjust every channel. And for movies, getting each channel calibrated with that level of granularity does seem to improve the whole immersion thing.
Same here. I got the best results ever and the most cohesive soundstage by verifying the frequency response of all speakers using Omnimic and it's 5.1 test signals.

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN arrived/installed today.
Nice!
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Two remedies adopted:
1) Put the unit into the equipment rack, out of the line of fire for the IR remotes.
2) Programmed all 4 presets with the same settings. Now it doesn't matter which is used.
3) Cover up or disable the IR receiver maybe?

I'd bet you'd like having the MiniDSP within reach so you can have a couple of movie bass settings and a couple of music bass settings.
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post #96 of 215 Old 08-04-2017, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN arrived/installed today. Very clean innards, nice sheetmetal. Looks like pride of workmanship.



Copied the SSP-800 EQ/gain/delay settings for the dual subwoofer channels into the 2x2 plugin.



The internal level meters helped me readjust the gain structure to prevent overdriving it. Needed to drop the SSP output and add 10 dB gain in the sub amps. Had plenty of range available.



Then ran ARC so the AVM 60 could operate on top.



I did notice a couple of times the EQ stopped working. Sound was still present, just no EQ applied. Yet the app showed it was still on. Finally realized the unit has switched away from Preset 1 to Preset 3 (not in use). But why? I caught it switch while I was changing tracks on my AppleTV with its tiny remote.



Two remedies adopted:

1) Put the unit into the equipment rack, out of the line of fire for the IR remotes.

2) Programmed all 4 presets with the same settings. Now it doesn't matter which is used.


You can teach it ir codes, sounds like the defaults conflict with something else, just teach it something else. Mine is programmed with number buttons and volume from an old panasonic VCR.
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post #97 of 215 Old 08-04-2017, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
3) Cover up or disable the IR receiver maybe?
That would be effective, too.
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You can teach it ir codes, sounds like the defaults conflict with something else, just teach it something else. Mine is programmed with number buttons and volume from an old panasonic VCR.
Great idea. I might be able to coordinate it so it calls up a particular setting when I am playing the AVM 60, f'rinstance. Lots of options.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #98 of 215 Old 08-04-2017, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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That was a fast install. So you set the miniDSP PEQ's for the two sets of subs based upon the settings you had in the SSP-800 (which has dual sub outs?), then ran ARC.
Yes. ARC only affects the AVM 60, and that is only used for Atmos/DTS:X content. Everything else runs through the SSP-800.

Quote:
And now you plan to experiment to see how differently you can drive the subs with some additional tuning of the miniDSP?
That would be useful only to optimize the subs for the AVM movies. The SSP is quite good as is.

I'm not sure the combination of ARC after PEQ is dong anything important, but certainly the added delays would only help as it improves the response for the rear seats that EQ alone could not fix. Since I cannot turn off the ARC EQ in only the Sub channel (which would give me identical Sub performance for both processors), I could set up the Mini to flat response + delay just for the AVM, and run ARC again. Then the subs would represent "pure ARC" FWIW. That's what I was hearing before the Mini install (in the MLP anyway) and the bass performance does not strike me as being much changed for AVM mode. In other words, it was fine before, and it's fine now with PEQ in the AVM chain. ARC may have somewhat neutralized the PEQ as it shoots for the same target either way.

If I were using the AVM for music listening, I would start with just the Mini doing just the rear subs delay, run ARC, then create a PEQ to aim for the same Sub response I'm getting from the SSP. But a) I do not plan to use the AVM for music, and b) it already sounds great on Atmos movies.

Quote:
So, how does it sound?
Just for sake of comparison, I ran a bunch of stereo music thru the AVM. The best upmixer it offers IMHO is AnthemLogic Music. Tried it with and without ceiling speaker outputs, and went without, even though it is happily quite subtle. As before, setting the Bass control -3 helps with midbass plumpness, but there's not enough control to get exactly the curve I prefer. And comparing AnthemLogic to PLIIx throws a rather big variable into the equation, even if I set PLIIx Center Width to Max so it too, does not use the Center speaker.

Pulled out the DVD-A of Linda Ronstadt's What's New and played the 5.1 96 kHz tracks. Massenburg did a wonderful job taking his stereo mix to surround. It really created an emotion response for me, partly in the knowledge that her beautiful voice is never to sing again. That was with the SSP. Played thru the AVM, it really paled in comparison -- I was rather surprised to discover. While there were no obvious faults, it just sounded rather pedestrian by comparison. I cannot put my finger on it. It involves the sense of space, the spectral balance, the detail/texture. I wish some of you could hear this comparison and help me identify what it is. I'd like to put it in a bottle!

If the AVM were my only surround processor, I might be persuaded to add a Q-Sys to give me full EQ control of every channel. Not sure how that would sound in the end. I know it could be good. But great? Maybe I am asking too much from a product of this calibre -- an unfair comparison to hold it up against a $10k benchmark.

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I'd bet you'd like having the MiniDSP within reach so you can have a couple of movie bass settings and a couple of music bass settings.
I already have my usual 6 dB sub gain offsets programmed into the SSP and the AVM for Music mode, so that seems adequate. If I do go ahead with a tailored EQ for the AVM, the IR would be able to reach it. Coordinating them would be the main challenge. Might have to dig out the Harmony!

I do have to say the MiniDSP is a slick piece of gear, and I'm sure it has more to offer my system than is currently implemented.

I'd also say the AVM 60 is a great unit -- nevermind my overly critical comments above. It does sound good, and ARC earns its keep. The menu structure is much more to my liking than the AV 7702. The AVM has total flexibility in defining virtual inputs and marrying them with different speaker configurations, different gain calibrations, and default processing modes. And it's easy to navigate, which is half the battle. Highly recommended.
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Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"

Last edited by Roger Dressler; 08-04-2017 at 12:52 PM.
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post #99 of 215 Old 08-04-2017, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Same here. I got the best results ever and the most cohesive soundstage by verifying the frequency response of all speakers using Omnimic and it's 5.1 test signals.
So after you see all the frequency responses, what do you do to set the channel balance?

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #100 of 215 Old 08-04-2017, 12:54 PM
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So after you see all the frequency responses, what do you do to set the channel balance?

Oh, I use the main trim controls on the AVR to dial in all the channels to each other.

I was just commenting that I got SO much better results when actually measuring all the channels frequency response and aligning them using onscreen tools like the Omnimic.

Before it was just, 'get the SPL meter and set the trims' and then fine-tune by ear. I like smooth transition from speaker to speaker but often I bump up the rear surrounds 1-2dB over the rest. You wouldn't get a sense that the sound was weighed towards any particular direction in my room though.
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post #101 of 215 Old 08-04-2017, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Before it was just, 'get the SPL meter and set the trims' and then fine-tune by ear. I like smooth transition from speaker to speaker but often I bump up the rear surrounds 1-2dB over the rest. You wouldn't get a sense that the sound was weighed towards any particular direction in my room though.
I have been known to add the 1-2 dB as well. Indeed, the goal being a level playing field.

Quote:
Oh, I use the main trim controls on the AVR to dial in all the channels to each other.

I was just commenting that I got SO much better results when actually measuring all the channels frequency response and aligning them using onscreen tools like the Omnimic.
Allow me to probe further, Scott. I'm trying to understand how the different procedure results in a different set of calibrations.

If all channels have very uniform frequency response, I'd think it would not matter whether one used an SPL meter or looked at the responses. (Not sure what other tools Omnimic offers. Does it let you choose a limited bandwidth to measure SPL?)

However, it's when the responses are not uniform that the question of how to set them arises. If you use the SPL meter with proper bandlimited pink, all the channels will be well balanced wrt the midrange frequencies. If you use overall frequency responses, you can pick whatever regions you like, or even do an eyeball average.

Is that what you're talking about?

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #102 of 215 Old 08-04-2017, 03:02 PM
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Hmm....

Likely, I had crap response before and now I actually have a half-decent one. Maybe it was that.

I guess my point is that I achieved the best most optimal results by going back and measuring for further fine-tuning.
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post #103 of 215 Old 08-04-2017, 03:12 PM
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I have been known to add the 1-2 dB as well. Indeed, the goal being a level playing field.

Allow me to probe further, Scott. I'm trying to understand how the different procedure results in a different set of calibrations.

If all channels have very uniform frequency response, I'd think it would not matter whether one used an SPL meter or looked at the responses. (Not sure what other tools Omnimic offers. Does it let you choose a limited bandwidth to measure SPL?)

However, it's when the responses are not uniform that the question of how to set them arises. If you use the SPL meter with proper bandlimited pink, all the channels will be well balanced wrt the midrange frequencies. If you use overall frequency responses, you can pick whatever regions you like, or even do an eyeball average.

Is that what you're talking about?
I'm not Scott, but I do the same thing. I use 1/3 octave smoothing when I do this and with OmniMic, you can save a response, for example, the left front speaker, show it on the screen and then do another speaker and adjust the trims of the second to align almost exactly to the left front speaker. I do every speaker exactly the same. I, too, bump up the surrounds a few db's and the ceilings as well.

The issue I have always had with using any kind of signal, bandwidth limited or not, is the constant moving meter (OmniMic has an SPL meter as well). The way I (and apparently Scott) do it, eliminates that variable.
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post #104 of 215 Old 08-04-2017, 03:14 PM
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I'm not Scott,
Aren't we all Well, except for Scott.

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but I do the same thing. I use 1/3 octave smoothing when I do this and with OmniMic, you can save a response, for example, the left front speaker, show it on the screen and then do another speaker and adjust the trims of the second to align almost exactly to the left front speaker. I do every speaker exactly the same. I, too, bump up the surrounds a few db's and the ceilings as well.

The issue I have always had with using any kind of signal, bandwidth limited or not, is the constant moving meter (OmniMic has an SPL meter as well). The way I (and apparently Scott) do it, eliminates that variable.
I see what you mean about the bouncing meter. I don't know how anyone uses a digital SPL meter! The analog ones at least let your eye/brain do some averaging. And if I went in there and doubled the integrating capacitor, it would really be solid.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #106 of 215 Old 08-05-2017, 05:21 PM
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Aren't we all Well, except for Scott.



I see what you mean about the bouncing meter. I don't know how anyone uses a digital SPL meter! The analog ones at least let your eye/brain do some averaging. And if I went in there and doubled the integrating capacitor, it would really be solid.


I used to use the analog SPL meter but I still found it less useful than what I do now.


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Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][
Jeremiah 4:1-2
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Great you're hearing Atmos again!
How is the immersive sound now - compared to Deadwood I?
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post #108 of 215 Old 08-10-2017, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gerchy View Post
Great you're hearing Atmos again!
How is the immersive sound now - compared to Deadwood I?
Considering all that is different between the two rooms, the Atmos result is quite similar. I did attempt to replicate the basic speaker geometry wrt the MLP, as I thought it sounded good before so did not want a major change.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #109 of 215 Old 08-11-2017, 02:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Because there are no Atmos processors with PLIIx, I keep the SSP-800 in the system alongside the AVM 60. In fact I use the SSP for all music and any other content that is not "immersive encoded" with height channels.

The integration of the dual processors is working out well. Signal flow is per the diagram.



The AVM produces a single subwoofer output channel, which is all that the SSP can accept through its 7.1 input. It's a pure analog path -- no harm comes to the AVM's audio. The subwoofer output channel feeds a MiniDSP processor which splits it into two outputs for the front and rear subs, each with its own EQ, gain and delay settings.

The SSP thus has its internal EQ operating for the 7 main channels, but EQ has been deactivated for the sub output, as that's been handed over to the MiniDSP.

The AVM provides ARC EQ in all 7.1.4 outputs, but the combination of ARC with the MiniDSP EQ proved counterproductive to the subwoofer's sound. Became anemic < 30 Hz. The ARC control panel does not offer an "opt out" for any of the channels, but I was able to find a way to effectively disable the ARC EQ for the sub output. On the target curve page, I set the Equalization Cutoff for the subwoofer to 120 Hz, and set the Minimum EQ Frequency to 100 Hz. Thus there's no EQ applied below 100 Hz, which I confirmed with REW electrical sweeps. The result is that the subwoofer bass quality is now virtually identical for both processors, which eliminates an audible deficit for the AVM until now.
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Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #110 of 215 Old 08-11-2017, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Because there are no Atmos processors with PLIIx, I keep the SSP-800 in the system alongside the AVM 60. In fact I use the SSP for all music and any other content that is not "immersive encoded" with height channels.

The integration of the dual processors is working out well.
Is the AVM connected to the SSP via HDMI or analog outs? So, do you or do you not make use of the height channels for music? Interesting that your only "EQ" for the subs does not make use of whatever the technology is in the AVM. I may put my miniDSP back into the system and try that as well. (Easy to not apply Dirac to the subs with the Datasat).

Mark 10:45 ][ Home Theater of The Month: The Oconee Theater ][ Music by Leslie Austin ][
Jeremiah 4:1-2
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post #111 of 215 Old 08-11-2017, 09:23 AM
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Because there are no Atmos processors with PLIIx



https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audi...k_u/index.html

I own it. Has PL2x and DSU and Neural:X and all that immersive audio crap.

It also has dual independent sub outputs.
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post #112 of 215 Old 08-11-2017, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I own it. Has PL2x and DSU and Neural:X and all that immersive audio crap.

It also has dual independent sub outputs.
Right you are! And I actually knew that at one point.

Now I'll add a bit more precision. I'm looking for something to replace the SSP-800 with same or better sonics, which I believe is because it not only upsamples 44.1/48 kHz sources to 96 kHz for all DSP processing, but also has superb DACs and analog stages. It's a pretty high bar.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #113 of 215 Old 08-11-2017, 12:03 PM
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Right you are! And I actually knew that at one point.

Now I'll add a bit more precision. I'm looking for something to replace the SSP-800 with same or better sonics, which I believe is because it not only upsamples 44.1/48 kHz sources to 96 kHz for all DSP processing, but also has superb DACs and analog stages. It's a pretty high bar.
Ahhh...

I think it sounds great but I don't do the same kind of critical listening that you do. I'd let you borrow it but... then I'll have no surround.

Excluding the requirement for PL2x, is there a product as such that has these qualities you're looking for?
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post #114 of 215 Old 08-11-2017, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Is the AVM connected to the SSP via HDMI or analog outs?
That's a 7.1-ch analog path so it carries the decoded and ARC processed audio intended for the power amps.

Quote:
So, do you or do you not make use of the height channels for music?
Do not. Tried AnthemLogic Music which does use them to a thankfully subtle degree, but that's not my cuppa tea as it is not at all enveloping like PLIIx. And I am already on record that DSU need not apply for upmixing stereo music. Atrocious. Neural:X, not much better. Auro-Matic, pretty good -- but irrelevant in the AVM.

Quote:
Interesting that your only "EQ" for the subs does not make use of whatever the technology is in the AVM. I may put my miniDSP back into the system and try that as well. (Easy to not apply Dirac to the subs with the Datasat).
Your processor gives you full control of target curve, right? If so, I see no need to mess with the added MniDSP.

Before the MiniDSP got here, I ran all 4 subs from the same signal, and ARC's tuning did not give me the result I prefer. How could it -- it cannot read my warped mind.

If I could control the target curve of ARC, that would have allowed me to achieve the desired response -- essentially the same result I got from 3 bands of PEQ (plus delays/gains) after hours of tweaking/tasting/tweaking. Even if ARC had flexible target adjustment, the AVM still does not have the dual outputs needed for delay offset (Seaton subs would have solved that ), so there was no need to force ARC to participate in a party it was clearly not wanting to attend. Very happy I could ask it to sit this one out.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #115 of 215 Old 08-11-2017, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Excluding the requirement for PL2x, is there a product as such that has these qualities you're looking for?
IIRC the Lyngdorf MP50 does not have upsampling SRC, nor does Trinnov. The Datasat RS20i has SRC, so if it upsamples 44.1 that would be a good start. Ideally, would be nice to have MQA and apodizing processing like Meridian or Ayre.

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #116 of 215 Old 08-11-2017, 12:49 PM
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Dang. Tall order there.

Well... good luck to you, sir!
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post #117 of 215 Old 08-11-2017, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Dang. Tall order there.

Well... good luck to you, sir!
Thanks, Scott. I have never had a YPAO system under my roof, so never explored its capabilities. I have the highest respect for the Yamaha crew, having visited them in Japan on several occasions. I really like their "renegade" attitude (as much renegade one can be in a Japanese corporation ). They avoid licensing in anything they can do on their own, be it room EQ, DSP processing, headphone surround, as opposed to the "off the shelf" technologies others use.

Some scoff at adding room simulation, but it can be a real bridge to a "theatrical experience" if the degree of effect is well tuned. Just as when you get a TV home, you take it out of store demo mode so you can put your eyeballs back in your head. Same for the various DSP modes. They are tuned to make an obvious difference in a demo. For long-term subtlety, one must readjust. And let's remember that the much vaunted Auro-Matic 2D/3D upmixer is indeed a room sim DSP -- it adds reverb!

Not sure you use any of these, but I remember the DSP modes in Sony AVRs of yore, and they had measured and emulated the acoustics of the Cary Grant and Kim Novak dubbing stages in Culver City. They sounded quite realistic. Would still be fun to have these DSPs on tap...

Deadwood II Theater (Previous Deadwood Theater HTOM)
Anthem AVM 60 7.4.4; Classé SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4; MiniDSP OpenDRC-AN
Oppo UDP-203; Oppo BDP-93; Win10 media PC w/Roon+Kodi; Roku Ultra; DirecTV Genie
Adam Audio S3V/S3H LCR, KEF Ci200QS 4 srrnd, Tannoy Di6 DC 4 hts, Hsu ULS-15 4 subs
JVC RS520; Stewart Cima Neve screen 125" diag 2.35:1, MLP at 115"
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post #118 of 215 Old 08-11-2017, 01:27 PM
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Aside from Sony, nobody makes a "room simulation" mode as good as CinemaDSP, imho. I use it every so often, when I think the soundtrack or my mood "needs" it. Everyone likes to believe they like the purest signal all the time. But it never hurts to process things sometimes. Make it the way we like it, amiright?

I played with Audyssey DSX a little bit but.... wasn't a fan.

I personally, do not use YPAO. I find all auto-REQ systems too limited. They do things the way they were programmed to. I prefer my own way so I am not using it. Full manual PEQ like you were doing.

Yes, I like the way Yamaha does things too. Just like Sony, they like to do their own thing and I like that. I am a long time fan as I'm sure you knew.
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post #119 of 215 Old 08-19-2017, 11:37 AM
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This theater rocks! Am loving reading through
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post #120 of 215 Old 08-19-2017, 03:18 PM
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I cannot put my finger on it. It involves the sense of space, the spectral balance, the detail/texture. I wish some of you could hear this comparison and help me identify what it is. I'd like to put it in a bottle!



Congratulations on the new built and apologies for being late to the party. I love the new look. It would be a pleasure going out for a visit. What is a good time to visit?
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