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post #61 of 82 Old 10-14-2017, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, 3 updates:

1. It just occurred to me that right outside on the west side of the room is a space underneath the deck which isn't really being utilized. As long as I'm digging up the foundation of the room and pouring a new one anyway, I may as well build out a bit. I'm going to take some measurements when my new fancy schmancy laser measure comes tomorrow.

2. I've been thinking more and more about Tedd's layout, and one issue with it is that I forgot to mention that the closet next to the stairs is actually under the stairs. As a result, it's suitable for storage but not as a hallway. Once I take measurements with the deck space, I'll take that into account when I redraw it based on Tedd's suggestion of a literal room within a room.

3. I've been looking at a bunch of other build threads and several of them go on for years and often over 100 pages. This thread may very well be one of them. I really don't like the name I gave this thread, so while it's still early on, I'm going to kill this one and start a new one, called "Basement Isolation Chamber Theater". Hope I don't lose all of the people who have been following this thread and giving awesome advice!

Edit: You can disregard point #3 . I was able to ask the mods just to change the name of this thread!

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post #62 of 82 Old 10-14-2017, 08:30 PM
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So I gather your stair diagram isn't properly scaled. I was counting stairs and looking at elevations.

Something close to a square isn't ideal but it also isn't something that can't be dealt with. You also could have some small soffits
in the room and now we're not talking about a square, nor something easily modeled. Or some alcoves can substantially change
the room in how it will behave acoustically.

Four way masking could be about older sources, and 4:3 content. But it could also simply be masking to accommodate
a constant area screen. 3 way masking might be suitable, depending on the source or scaler's ability to place an image on the
screen. I am not in the camp that believes scope is the ultimate screen format and from your viewing habits listed, your content
might be slightly skewed to 16x9 content. So depending upon a room and seating layout, I can see where a constant area screen
might be the better screen option. Neither format gets preference, they both get a solid size.

I still see the circulation spaces being the biggest challenge of all, in your basement.

My point re the two extra chairs, is how little it sounds like they'll see use. Those are insanely expensive seats if you could avoid
underpinning, and maybe the 7'10" ceiling then works with a relatively cheap rebuild, and utilize the library space with an S bend
rebuild. The joist cavity can now be used, to make the re-connections. The second row also is introducing those back windows into
the space, and they are going to act as low pass filters, and their effect is going to be audible. They also appear to be large windows
and the bigger they are, the bigger the problem. In essence, I question the (very nice) pros of the bigger volume, and that central
"money seat", versus the loss of seldom used seats 5 and 6, the higher noise floor, plus the low band pass issues of those windows
and the theater being used as a "hallway".

So maybe you just drag in two extra chairs for occasional seating when needed???

You might want to turn on your personal messaging notifications.
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post #63 of 82 Old 10-14-2017, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
So I gather your stair diagram isn't properly scaled. I was counting stairs and looking at elevations.
Sorry, yes, you are correct. The stairs were just a graphical template I was able to toss in. I'm going to start redrawing the whole thing much more accurately. In fact, my handy dandy laser measuring tool just came in the mail today, and it looks like not only were the stairs just an imprecise approximation, but also my measurements were off by quite a bit - and of course never in my favor. Some of the dimensions were off by around 4 to 6". Others were a lot closer.

As I mentioned in the above post, I'm going to start migrating this discussion to this one, since I don't like the title of this thread, and I'm afraid I'll cringe every time I post here, which may be more or less every day for the next year or two.

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Something close to a square isn't ideal but it also isn't something that can't be dealt with. You also could have some small soffits
in the room and now we're not talking about a square, nor something easily modeled. Or some alcoves can substantially change
the room in how it will behave acoustically.
I'm seeing the logic in that. If I'm going through the trouble of doing all this work to build a new room-in-a-room, I may as well just not make it square.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Four way masking could be about older sources, and 4:3 content. But it could also simply be masking to accommodate
a constant area screen. 3 way masking might be suitable, depending on the source or scaler's ability to place an image on the
screen. I am not in the camp that believes scope is the ultimate screen format and from your viewing habits listed, your content
might be slightly skewed to 16x9 content. So depending upon a room and seating layout, I can see where a constant area screen
might be the better screen option. Neither format gets preference, they both get a solid size.
You may be right. I do watch a lot of 16x9 content. But I think that decision can be made after I've got the room figured out. But the way I'm currently thinking of it (certainly subject to change) is that it's not about giving one format preference over the other as much as maximizing the screen size for each format. In general, I'm thinking bigger is better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
My point re the two extra chairs, is how little it sounds like they'll see use. Those are insanely expensive seats if you could avoid
underpinning
To be clear, the underpinning was never about adding the second row. It's more about giving myself the additional headroom to add in a lot of acoustic isolation and treatments in the ceiling as well as add Atmos speakers without being able to just reach up and touch them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
The second row also is introducing those back windows into
the space, and they are going to act as low pass filters, and their effect is going to be audible. They also appear to be large windows
and the bigger they are, the bigger the problem. In essence, I question the (very nice) pros of the bigger volume, and that central
"money seat", versus the loss of seldom used seats 5 and 6, the higher noise floor, plus the low band pass issues of those windows
and the theater being used as a "hallway".
Agreed. You make a VERY compelling argument for your design. I do have to think about the pathway to the garage, since that closet just west of the door coming in from the stairs is kind of only a half closet. It's directly under the stairs, so the ceiling in there is way too low for people to walk through. If I can build out under my deck, that could solve a lot of problems as it would add another 10' to play around with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
So maybe you just drag in two extra chairs for occasional seating when needed???
Yup, that's what I do now. I may just keep the 4 chairs and offset them and just live with the asymmetry. Of all of the things, it's probably the easiest to live with.

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Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
You might want to turn on your personal messaging notifications.
I believe they're on. I double-checked and, unless I'm mistaken, I should be able to receive PMs.
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post #64 of 82 Old 10-15-2017, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for the confusion about the thread name. I was able to ask them to change the name of this thread, so I wouldn't need to open up a completely new one.

Since the new one was deleted, here's some relevant info since the last post here. It turned out that after I double checked all of my measurements with a laser measuring tool, I was actually off by quite a bit. Here are the correct dimensions - unless I did something wrong again!

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You'll notice that I'm also showing some dirt/soil right outside the west wall. That is an unused space under the deck. My wife is insisting that I not build there (though I don't really get her rationale) so I'm just considering that part of the backup plan for now.

This is what it might look like if I build that direction:

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post #65 of 82 Old 10-16-2017, 07:04 AM
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If you are going to judge Mark Seaton by his website, you just made a massive error in judgement.
Reaching out to him would be an excellent idea.


Re back up plan:

I'd try to minimize the angle in the back, and not introduce a second section of angled wall.

I'd also grab the extra room depth for the subs and consider a baffle wall design that doesn't cover your subs.

Add a low soffit on the back wall and there's a cabling route for the projector and cold air return. That extra depth up, front can
also let you work in your vents up front.

I'd also try to buy narrow seating for a wide layout. You also would want speakers with wide dispersion patterns.

I'd also watch the viewing angles so you can take in the whole screen, without your eyes having to jump around the screen.
That's yet another reason that maybe a HUGE screen doesn't mean the best viewing experience.
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post #66 of 82 Old 10-16-2017, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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My main reason for angling the northeastern corner was really just for symmetry. The more I think about it, though, the more I'm leaning toward keeping things in the space they're in now. I'm pushing hard on getting rid of those damned windows. If I can get ride of the windows, the space under the deck will be great for just adding that much more room.

In terms of viewing angles, my current setup is a 120" diagonal 16:9 screen (104.6" wide), and my eyes are about 11'9" away from the screen, give or take an inch or so depending on whether I'm reclining or not. I like that scale, so I'll be trying to maintain that. I dusted off the old high school geometry and made this crude diagram:

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So my current viewing angle is about 40.7 degrees. The Society of Motion Picture & Television Engineers recommends 40 degrees, so I'm not far off from that at all.

Once I can work out the dimensions of the room I'll be working with, I can use that as a foundation for the ratio of screen size to seating position. But one question I'll need to work out is whether I want to base that angle off of a 16:9 image or 2.35:1. Right now I'm thinking it should be based off of 16:9, since one of the key features of 2.35:1 is the way it fills your field of vision. I think having that extra screen real estate on either side of the screen will give it that epic feel.
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post #67 of 82 Old 10-16-2017, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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A few more pics for context.

First, here is a picture of the inside of that closet next to the stairs. As you can see, because it's directly under the stairs (since the house is a split-level with a second set of stairs going up just to the west of the ones heading down into the basement) it's really not suitable as a hallway. I'll also have to investigate to see if the walls of the closet are load bearing.

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Also, here are some pictures of the area under the deck just to the west of the room. As you're facing west, these pictures show the sequence from when you look left (i.e., south) to right (north).

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I should probably have just taken a panorama.

The reason the deck has that angle to it is that that part of the deck runs parallel to the fence adjoining the property. It won't be possible to build out beyond that. If need be, I can take a top down photo from the upstairs deck.
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post #68 of 82 Old 10-28-2017, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I think I have an interesting new solution to the problem of how to get a decent size theater without putting it in the path of all of the foot traffic going from the upstairs to the garage/laundry room. The solution involves building on to the north side of the house. I never mocked up what's on the north side, so first, here's a mockup of it using SketchUp:

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I didn't put in all of the dimensions, so just to refresh your memory, this is what just the room bit looks like:

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The space to the north of my house is not being well utilized. It's got an old trampoline that the kids don't use anymore that we were planning on getting rid of. So here's what it would look like if I just built about 6' deep into that space:

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This gives me the best of all worlds. It's a very nicely sized space for a theater, and also takes the best points of Tedd's design by taking it out of the way of foot traffic. (I conveniently am just assuming that the windows will be a non-issue. I have to pick my battles, and the more I think about it, the more I think that might be one.) In addition, there's a nice side benefit in that I could put in an HVAC system right above the theater if that's the best place for it. (But if it's not, I'll need to come up with something to put up there. It might be that I wrap the deck around the house, though there's not a particularly nice view on that side.

I have absolutely no idea how much it would cost to build out in that direction. I'm hoping it won't be any more expensive than building under the deck. And since I'll be underpinning and changing how the upstairs is held up (because I'll be removing the post in the center of the current HT), I'm hoping it won't be incrementally that much more.

One challenge that I can immediately see is the chimney that's currently on the side of the house. I have no problem removing it from the lower part of the house, since I will be removing the fireplace that's down there. But the upstairs does have a fireplace that we use. So I'm not sure how we can incorporate that into the overall design. Also, here are some photos of what that side of the house currently looks like.
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post #69 of 82 Old 09-18-2018, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Resurrecting this thread! A little context for why it went dark for a year. I invited the contractor who did the remodel for the rest of my home over to discuss things like underpinning the floor, building out under the deck, etc. When we discussed the idea of not having the HT be in the flow of traffic from the upstairs to the garage/laundry room, he pointed out that one possibility would be to change the way the entry leads to the downstairs. It's a split-level home, so when you enter the house, the stairs - both up and down - go to the right. Instead, he pointed out, I could change the entry so that the stairs go straight ahead from the front door, which would then go through where the water heater and furnace are. That way we could eliminate the door from the current stairs, and there would be only one entrance to the HT from the downstairs hallway. I really liked this idea, but the more I thought about it, the more untenable it became. We'd basically have to rip out our entire current entry (which we remodeled only 4-5 years ago) and do a lot of structural work. In the end, I decided to be a little more realistic and try to utilize the space as it currently exists. One concession I was able to get from my wife, though, was that she is now ok with putting up drywall or otherwise covering up completely the windows that are in that room.

I started thinking about the space again, and one idea that came to mind was doing a bit of a trapezoidal shape. I wasn't sure what this would mean for the acoustics. I could see it being good (since I wouldn't run the risk of it being a perfect square with peaks and nulls at the center), or I could see it being really really bad. Here's the concept:

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Since the wall sticks out a bit where the stairs come in from upstairs, I was thinking of artificially making the other side of the room symmetrical, and then putting in diagonal walls.

Is this a really stupid idea or one worth pursuing?
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post #70 of 82 Old 07-23-2019, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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It's been a while since I updated this thread. I had a new idea for the layout - essentially making the room trapezoidal. Here's the crappy mockup I made:

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The theater designer I'm working with thought this would work well acoustically. (They said it could be either terrible or great. They ran it through their calculations and determined it would work out well.) Here are some of the more detailed layouts:

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What do you guys think of this plan? I'd love to get a second opinion before committing.

Thanks!
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post #71 of 82 Old 07-23-2019, 10:44 AM
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Why is the screen so large? 200" 16:9 and your front row viewing distance is only 11'-0"... That doesn't seem like an enjoyable viewing experience to me.. The recommended viewing distance for that size screen is between 20'-0" to 30'-0"..
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Why is the screen so large? 200" 16:9 and your front row viewing distance is only 11'-0"... That doesn't seem like an enjoyable viewing experience to me.. The recommended viewing distance for that size screen is between 20'-0" to 30'-0"..
I do like a large screen! My current setup is 120" at the same seating distance, and after 10 years, it's kind of lost its impact. That said, I do want to see if I can demo a 200" screen at that distance to get a feel for how it would look.
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post #73 of 82 Old 07-23-2019, 11:51 AM
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9.4.6 will be a sweet but pricey setup, I guess they plan on using a Trinnov processor. Don't scrimp on those subs placed at the mid length position as it fills in a null that will otherwise naturally occur near your first row seating without them. It is a very important component of your design.
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post #74 of 82 Old 07-23-2019, 12:14 PM
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I do like a large screen! My current setup is 120" at the same seating distance, and after 10 years, it's kind of lost its impact. That said, I do want to see if I can demo a 200" screen at that distance to get a feel for how it would look.
Large doesn't cut it...

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post #75 of 82 Old 07-23-2019, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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9.4.6 will be a sweet but pricey setup, I guess they plan on using a Trinnov processor. Don't scrimp on those subs placed at the mid length position as it fills in a null that will otherwise naturally occur near your first row seating without them. It is a very important component of your design.
Agreed. I definitely want to err on the side of more bass. I currently have a null at my primary seating position, so getting rid of that is one of the goals of this setup. We are looking at Trinnov for the processor but also considering Lyngdorf MP-50. TBH, I'm mostly focusing on room layout before doing a lot of research on electronics. That said, I will be going to CEDIA for the first time ever in September, so I'm hoping to educate myself on the different processor options.
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post #76 of 82 Old 07-23-2019, 12:42 PM
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In the past there was a Meyer demo room at CEDIA. A room of this caliber should enclose the projector in a hushbox or a separate projection booth space. Your plans also lack any details on HVAC how it will be provided and how it will be kept quiet.

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post #77 of 82 Old 07-23-2019, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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In the past there was a Meyer demo room at CEDIA. A room of this caliber should enclose the projector in a hushbox or a separate projection booth space. Your plans also lack any details on HVAC how it will be provided and how it will be kept quiet.
Thanks. We've discussed HVAC, but it's not in the plans yet. Fortunately, I won't need air conditioning for the room since it stays pretty cool. We're thinking of adding heated flooring for the winter. That said, we'll still need air vents for circulation.
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post #78 of 82 Old 07-23-2019, 06:00 PM
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an airtight well insulated room will need cooling even during the winter when you fill the seats and turn on the space heater (projector), Bringing in sufficient air from adjacent areas can do the trick. Fresh air would be very important. When you fill the seats the CO2 level will rise to uncomfortable levels within the time it takes to show a movie. If it is just you popping in after work for a couple of hours to unwind, you should be fine without assisted ventilation.

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post #79 of 82 Old 07-24-2019, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback. We'll definitely keep an eye on the ventilation issue, though I expect that 90% of the time (or more!) I'll just be in there alone...

One other question I'm curious to get everyone's feedback on. What do you think of the trapezoidal layout from an acoustic perspective? On the one hand, I trust my designer that he ran the numbers correctly, but on the other, I'm just curious if anyone's worked with a room shape like this.
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post #80 of 82 Old 09-04-2019, 01:31 PM
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Well with the Trinnov and some capable subs you should have a great system. If I were spending that kind of money I would take a very hard look at Alcons speakers. For imaging I've never heard anything that comes close - though I haven't heard the JBL M2's in person.

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post #81 of 82 Old 09-05-2019, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Well with the Trinnov and some capable subs you should have a great system. If I were spending that kind of money I would take a very hard look at Alcons speakers. For imaging I've never heard anything that comes close - though I haven't heard the JBL M2's in person.
Thank you! I will check those out. I will be going to CEDIA for the first time ever, so I should be able to demo lots of equipment.
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post #82 of 82 Old 09-06-2019, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Thank you! I will check those out. I will be going to CEDIA for the first time ever, so I should be able to demo lots of equipment.
I still haven't been - but one day...

Apparently they had some issues either last year or the year before with their setup - apparently the Trinnov they used as a processor was wonky and they couldn't even run all the room correction stuff just had to set it up by ear or something to that effect. But a friend of mine has the Alcons CRMS MKII and they are absolutely phenomenal. Crystal clear speakers. He's not even running them with the Alcons amplifiers which are, let's say, umm pricey - but they are still the best speakers I've ever heard.
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Roll Tide.
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