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post #31 of 168 Old 01-04-2018, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jason4vu View Post
Good luck! Very nice space.....could be epic with good planning
Thanks. I see you've got some in-walls as well. Theaters like yours are the reason I come to avsforum to get design ideas.
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post #32 of 168 Old 01-04-2018, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt View Post
Regarding the electrical, here’s how I’d do it.

One or two (or more) circuits for amplifiers (depending on how many and how powerful they are), including subwoofer(s). Make sure there are outlets behind where the sub(s) will be located.

One circuit for source components, including display or projector.

One circuit for room outlets.

One circuit for room lights. Make sure you have both “ambience” lights (if you like to run something dim during the show), and /or what I call “work lights” – sufficiently bright lighting to turn on when you have to vacuum the room, pick a DVD from the shelf (without using a flashlight)!, etc.

Put all the system outlets on the same electrical phase in the panel.

Put the room outlets and lights on the opposite phase, especially if using dimmers.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Thanks. Once I get my equipment nailed down I will have a better idea of exactly which circuits I need. Splitting the load between phases is a good idea.
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post #33 of 168 Old 01-04-2018, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sor View Post
Not sure if this is the right forum, if it focuses primarily on theater construction or if it's a "kitchen sink" comprehensive forum, but as far as finding a sound system I did find a calculator that attempts to match listening distance, sensitivity, and speaker power to reach a THX reference 105db with some headroom to spare.

I ran a few of the examples above, and if it is to be believed then most of the options I've come across should have no problem with the room size, given 150-200 watts peak. It seems as long as I look for speakers that have at least 92db sensitivity ratings I should be OK with single speakers without having to look for super high wattage ratings. Some speakers out there have sensitivity in the 88db range, that requires finding a model that can do 500 watts, which don't exist.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322spl-calculator/
That calculator is good assuming you put the right data into it. There are actually fairly few speakers than can handle 200 Watts and have a 92db sensitivity. There is a list of candidates here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...-speakers.html


My current setup.
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post #34 of 168 Old 01-04-2018, 09:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
That calculator is good assuming you put the right data into it. There are actually fairly few speakers than can handle 200 Watts and have a 92db sensitivity. There is a list of candidates here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...-speakers.html
Thanks, that's a great spreadsheet. Needs more in-walls though. Most of the ones I've been looking at would probably be on that list, based on the existing entries. 92-94db sensitivity and 150-250 watts RMS.
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post #35 of 168 Old 01-05-2018, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sor View Post
Thanks. Once I get my equipment nailed down I will have a better idea of exactly which circuits I need. Splitting the load between phases is a good idea.
Should have mentioned - the idea isn't specifically for splitting the load between phases, but for minimizing the potential for noise in the system. Lighting dimmers, for instance, can generate a lot of noise if they're on the same phase as the HT gear. Same with stuff that could potentially be plugged into the room outlets.

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post #36 of 168 Old 01-05-2018, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sor View Post
Thanks, that's a great spreadsheet. Needs more in-walls though. Most of the ones I've been looking at would probably be on that list, based on the existing entries. 92-94db sensitivity and 150-250 watts RMS.
You should feel free to add to the spreadsheet, via posting in that thread, if you have found additional high output speakers. It is a community effort, built off the input of people like you

Heck, I'd love to know about some in wall speakers about 92db efficiency that can handle 200+ watts.


My current setup.
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post #37 of 168 Old 01-05-2018, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt View Post
Should have mentioned - the idea isn't specifically for splitting the load between phases, but for minimizing the potential for noise in the system. Lighting dimmers, for instance, can generate a lot of noise if they're on the same phase as the HT gear. Same with stuff that could potentially be plugged into the room outlets.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Thanks

Might just invest in a power conditioner at the outlet, since I've got so many other things on those phases. My A/C units are noisy motors and span both phases for example.
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post #38 of 168 Old 01-05-2018, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
You should feel free to add to the spreadsheet, via posting in that thread, if you have found additional high output speakers. It is a community effort, built off the input of people like you

Heck, I'd love to know about some in wall speakers about 92db efficiency that can handle 200+ watts.
I'll provide a sampling of what I'm looking at.

The Triad Gold 6 LCRs say they can go up to 450W and have a 92db sensitivity. They're 4 ohm though which throws things off, calc says I'd need ~200W RMS 400W peak. Still within range. The silvers are a similar story but have 200W power recommendation.

https://www.triadspeakers.com/produc.../iw-gold6-lcr/
https://www.triadspeakers.com/produc...w-silver6-lcr/

The Klipsch PRO-6504 LCR is 92db, 8 ohm, and power handling specified at 150W RMS/600W max. The calc says with the 8 ohm rating I only require 95w RMS handling listening from 20ft away. The 6502s are similar.

http://images.klipsch.com/PRO-6504-L...1311824000.pdf
http://images.klipsch.com/PRO-6502-L...7783364000.pdf

The Definitive UIW series has some similar 92db, 8 ohm speakers in the same power range

https://www.definitivetechnology.com...cts/uiw-rls-ii

The Martin Logan Edge and Axis have a 95db and 94db rating, respectively with similar power ratings to the others. They're 4 ohm though which counteracts the high sensitivity rating, calc still says 95w RMS required at 20 ft.

https://www.martinlogan.com/architec...alth/specs.php

I'm sure there are others that fit into this category.
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post #39 of 168 Old 01-05-2018, 09:13 AM
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Thanks. Yes, for those that aren't in the list, posting in that thread would help out the community. That's what we are here for -- to help one another.

At least one you mention is already on the list, I think (Triad Gold LCR). That's what I use. Luckily I found them used, so I didn't have to pay $2000+ per speaker!


My current setup.
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post #40 of 168 Old 01-05-2018, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Thanks. Yes, for those that aren't in the list, posting in that thread would help out the community. That's what we are here for -- to help one another.

At least one you mention is already on the list, I think (Triad Gold LCR). That's what I use. Luckily I found them used, so I didn't have to pay $2000+ per speaker!
There are Triads listed but none in-wall. Looks like there are only three in-walls listed, two Wisdom audio and a Pro Audio Tech. I'll send these on and see if they're worthy of the list or if there's some disqualifier.
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post #41 of 168 Old 01-14-2018, 12:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Lakeview Cinema

Ok, on lighting. I’ve got spots in the soffits, spots in the ceiling, sconces between columns, accent surround lighting between the ceiling and soffits, and stair lighting.

I don’t necessarily want a ton of light switches, I think 3 max. I’m trying to figure out which lights should be switched together, seems like something that should be in a FAQ somewhere.

I’m still debating how I’ll control the lights, but what I’m after right now is just distinct circuit design, not control.

I’m thinking maybe the stairs and soffit accents on the same switch, all of the recessed on the same switch, and the sconces on their own.

Or maybe the sconces and stairs together and all ceiling lights on a second. Two switches.

I realize there are complications when you start considering dimmers, which light types can be dimmed together, etc. Right low let’s just talk ideal circuits.

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post #42 of 168 Old 01-14-2018, 01:36 PM
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The answer is ideally a lighting controller of some sort.

You gang your lights on zones, and then program how they fade or ramp up, and what zone does what, and when.
The net result is a lighting plan, that also ends up as multiple scenes. One might be an entry scene , for drama upon
entering the room. Another would be a cleaning scene. A third would be movie watching.

I still use my Lutron Grafic Eye 3104 (four zone) but there are much more modern offerings out there, that can do more.
I do have a one button 1S entry controller outside the room, which basically gives me scene one/off.
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post #43 of 168 Old 01-14-2018, 01:38 PM
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Here's the sticky thread on the Grafic Eye controller. It should give you a very good primer on lighting.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...er-thread.html
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post #44 of 168 Old 01-14-2018, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The answer is ideally a lighting controller of some sort.



You gang your lights on zones, and then program how they fade or ramp up, and what zone does what, and when.

The net result is a lighting plan, that also ends up as multiple scenes. One might be an entry scene , for drama upon

entering the room. Another would be a cleaning scene. A third would be movie watching.



I still use my Lutron Grafic Eye 3104 (four zone) but there are much more modern offerings out there, that can do more.

I do have a one button 1S entry controller outside the room, which basically gives me scene one/off.


Yeah but the question is, what are the zones? Do I have to run five unique lighting circuits or can I group them?

I had a big long write up about controllers and decided to remove it for simplicity since I’m talking circuits now and not controls. I’m a little hesitant to install a controller if it doesn’t have a clean API or access for me to integrate and I need to look into the options. I can program integration myself between components, or simply use HomeKit to set up scenes with smart switches if I want to keep it simple.

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post #45 of 168 Old 01-14-2018, 03:59 PM
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The usual zones/circuits are things like:

step lighting, or low mounted perimeter lighting, so one can move about safely around the room, while a movie is playing

screen spots

overhead seating spots

sconces (and possibly split into front and rear zones)

Overhead soffit/perimeter lighting.

The less common zones could be simple on/off zones, for things like an exit sign, or a movie poster light box. Or a single overhead
spot light for the money seat, handy for things like setting up gear. You could even control lighting outside the room, such as extinguish
lights outside the theater, after a movie starts.

Now putting the zones together into a lighting plan, is all about what you want to accomplish. If you have an idea of what sort of scenes,
you want to create, then you work backwards from there, to how lights are zoned, and the dimming curves, and how all the zones interact.

I'm guessing you have some very elaborate ideas....
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post #46 of 168 Old 01-14-2018, 04:10 PM
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More zones is all about lighting design flexibility.

And a bunch of zones might just be about pre-wire and pre-planning. No reason one couldn't wire front and rear spots on separate
zones, but connect them together in a second electrical box, much like the two box GE method that DE recommended. That method
is to keep the infill to electrical code.
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post #47 of 168 Old 01-14-2018, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, thanks. I think I was hoping for some common scenes that most people do, so I could know which ones to string onto the same circuit. I think you’ve convinced me though that I just need to be able to experiment, so I’ll run the extra circuits to a 4 gang switch box in order to have the flexibility later.

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post #48 of 168 Old 01-14-2018, 05:31 PM
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There are many ways to skin a cat, but I would assume the simplest way is the best.

I started off with a more complicated setup, including dimmable cabinet lights, side lamps and a universal dimmer setup. Soon realized that I did not use any of it, so ripped everything out during an upgrade. Now I have a very simple lighting scheme in my small theater consisting of three rows of pot lights, each on their own dimmer, with the center row controlled from my main system remote. If there was a stream of new guests I might have left the "Wow" lighting in place, but my family and our hand full of good friends really don't care after the first "Taddaa!".

Front Row - On when picking out a movie from the drawers under my screen or jacking around with the electronics, but otherwise off.
Second Row - On when entering or leaving and for non-critical viewing. Completely shielded from the screen to prevent image washout.
Third Row - On when my wife is watching with me because she insists on crafting. Not very elegant, but I have unscrewed two of the bulbs, leaving only the one directly over her chair.

For cleaning or finding lost wallets, all lights come to blaze, but otherwise it is a very subdued, projector friendly environment. I would do exactly the same if I ever built another room (but maybe put the wife's "craft" light on it's own switch ).

Your room is 3X the size, and will likely be 3X more professional than mine, so perhaps a fancy lighting scheme is in order.
All I know is that for me personally, it would be a waste of resources.
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post #49 of 168 Old 01-14-2018, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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There are many ways to skin a cat, but I would assume the simplest way is the best.



I started off with a more complicated setup, including dimmable cabinet lights, side lamps and a universal dimmer setup. Soon realized that I did not use any of it, so ripped everything out during an upgrade. Now I have a very simple lighting scheme in my small theater consisting of three rows of pot lights, each on their own dimmer, with the center row controlled from my main system remote. If there was a stream of new guests I might have left the "Wow" lighting in place, but my family and our hand full of good friends really don't care after the first "Taddaa!".



Front Row - On when picking out a movie from the drawers under my screen or jacking around with the electronics, but otherwise off.

Second Row - On when entering or leaving and for non-critical viewing. Completely shielded from the screen to prevent image washout.

Third Row - On when my wife is watching with me because she insists on crafting. Not very elegant, but I have unscrewed two of the bulbs, leaving only the one directly over her chair.



For cleaning or finding lost wallets, all lights come to blaze, but otherwise it is a very subdued, projector friendly environment. I would do exactly the same if I ever built another room (but maybe put the wife's "craft" light on it's own switch ).



Your room is 3X the size, and will likely be 3X more professional than mine, so perhaps a fancy lighting scheme is in order.

All I know is that for me personally, it would be a waste of resources.


No, this is quite helpful. I think I’ll put spots on the rear counter on their own circuit so they can be on. I’ll experiment with some of the other ambient lights and see which combos work. If I have them all in a 4 gang box I can make it simple or fancy later, so long as I have the right physical lights on distinct circuits.
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post #50 of 168 Old 01-14-2018, 06:41 PM
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IMO don't worry about "too many" switches. You're installing a lot of lighting zones with different uses & requirements. Without switches you're going to really limit the final results. It's a shame to put so much resources to lighting then skimp on the means by which you control them due to having more switches on the wall(s). Wiring up a switch for each zone will also allow you to add Smart Switches later & then the fun really begins with customization & control. Don't limit yourself now or you will likely regret that decision down the road. Conversely the look of more switches won't even be noticed pretty shortly after seeing them.
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post #51 of 168 Old 01-14-2018, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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IMO don't worry about "too many" switches. You're installing a lot of lighting zones with different uses & requirements. Without switches you're going to really limit the final results. It's a shame to put so much resources to lighting then skimp on the means by which you control them due to having more switches on the wall(s). Wiring up a switch for each zone will also allow you to add Smart Switches later & then the fun really begins with customization & control. Don't limit yourself now or you will likely regret that decision down the road. Conversely the look of more switches won't even be noticed pretty shortly after seeing them.


I’m not too concerned about too many switches. I just didn’t want to go wild and end up with something over the top that isn’t used. I think for this one room we will never use more than 2-3 scenes probably easily handled with just a few circuits and smart switches , but the trick is knowing what scenes those are up front. I don’t think I can, so I’m going to wire for flexibility.

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post #52 of 168 Old 01-15-2018, 06:39 AM
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Those switches won't be as noticeable if they are available in black.

That just might be THE room to go wild and over the top...


The usual scenes are:

Entry Drama

Start of movie lighting ramp down, fade to dark

Step lighting, to safely move about the room during a movie. The Savoy has a double door, that allows one to step
out of the theater, without the light spill distraction. That might be a room of interest yo you. Tablet control and
Alexxa voice control.

All On - cleaning

and that one scene for someone who needs a little light on. Those bar row lights as a separate zone should be
pretty handy for when setting up gear. You'll need some light, just not anywhere near the screen
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post #53 of 168 Old 01-19-2018, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Slow going, but I've been spending a lot of time planning. I did manage to take the door out, run some conduit, and I've run some twine to outline where the coffers are going to go. I wanted to be confident that I got the wiring in the right place for things that will need to line up with beams. I've also got a 10" concrete core cut for a fresh air return, and a 3" one to the exterior for the ducted mini split power and line set. Not much to show, but the vision is solidifying and a lot of questions are getting answered.

I've also got a UMIK-1 microphone and am told now is a good time to determine room modes and plan subwoofer locations, so I'll probably work on that soon. The acoustics will change but the dimensions won't change so much that the room modes will be invalidated, I guess.

The design shots are a work in progress, still playing with proportions. You can also see in the top view that I'm playing with the coffer trim style as well, trying to plan out lighting tracks.
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post #54 of 168 Old 05-29-2018, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally passed the four way inspection. I’ve been working on the entire 3600sqft basement, so it has been quite a labor of love. I got a bid on electrical for $17k, said no thanks and worked weekends and nights to get the plumbing and electrical done myself. Cost me $3k in materials and I ran about 3500 ft of Romex, so I saved a good amount. I’m getting to the point now where I’m definitely going to contract out stuff like the drywall, etc. even with a team that will take weeks.

Regarding the theater, I completed the lighting plan, speaker conduit, all the wiring, and am now getting spray foam installed. I know some will say that spray foam will couple the walls the the concrete, and they’re not wrong, but I’ve had a “concrete coffin“ theater before and found the 12” of concrete to be more than enough sound isolation. At this point I’m more concerned about locking everything together and reducing the potential for rattles in the room, and then decoupling the framing on the *outside* of the concrete where living space is adjacent.

I’ve got an 8” duct for fresh air and a 1 ton mini split. The mini split was an ordeal, I originally had a wall mount system installed but I decided I didn’t like it. I didn’t like the aesthetics, it didn’t seem like it would be as easy to hide as I thought without disrupting air flow. It was quiet enough on the lowest setting but overall too loud. I ended up selling it and getting a ducted mini split, which I’ve installed hangers for in the future soffit. It’s rated 10db quieter overall, 28db on full blast, so I’m optimistic it will do a good job and hide nicely.

The core drilling for the air return was also an ordeal. The guy ran into a particularly nasty rebar situation and almost broke his drill. Took him most of the day when it was supposed to be a one hour job. I gave him a nice tip because I felt bad. I think he ended up delaying another job.






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post #55 of 168 Old 06-05-2018, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Finished insulation. Makes a huge difference on the risers.

Hopefully we will complete drywall within the next month.

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post #56 of 168 Old 07-20-2018, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Walls are dry. Just a single layer with resilient channel.

Sorry about the poor photo, not a lot of light gets in here


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post #57 of 168 Old 07-31-2018, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Soffit mini split is installed, just need to caulk the hole outside. Really quite surprised at how quiet the outside unit is. The inside unit is also not bad and will get better once I tuck it in a soffit.



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post #58 of 168 Old 08-01-2018, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Lakeview Cinema

Made some renders in order to figure out some of the trim details. These are obviously unfinished and I probably won’t bother to do so. It serves its purpose just to see how the columns, etc work. Textures are just placeholders.


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post #59 of 168 Old 08-03-2018, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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The soffit design above is 26” x 12” to accommodate the mini split and other ductwork. The blue sections in the underside of the soffit are planned to be bass traps.

I’ve done a lot of reading about opinions on bass trap designs, corner straddlers superchunks. There are a lot of varying opinions but a common theme seems to be some sort of large volume of medium density material with open space behind it. I’m thinking these blue sections are going to hide 24” x 48” x 4” of OC 703 with 8” open behind it (or perhaps low density insulation). Sound good? Other opinions?

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post #60 of 168 Old 08-04-2018, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sor View Post
The soffit design above is 26” x 12” to accommodate the mini split and other ductwork. The blue sections in the underside of the soffit are planned to be bass traps.

I’ve done a lot of reading about opinions on bass trap designs, corner straddlers superchunks. There are a lot of varying opinions but a common theme seems to be some sort of large volume of medium density material with open space behind it. I’m thinking these blue sections are going to hide 24” x 48” x 4” of OC 703 with 8” open behind it (or perhaps low density insulation). Sound good? Other opinions?
Seems like a good plan to add lots of low frequency absorption to your room right where it is needed.
Looks like you have added floor to ceiling superchunks in the front corners as well?
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