Have two rows, please post! - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 31 Old 04-09-2018, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Have two rows? Please post!

Ok.... I've been researching seating, view and ng distances, screen sizes, etc. If you have 2 rows, please post diagonal of screen, row one distance to eye and row two distance to eye


UPDATE:
Any real world anecdoates about your setup are welcome.


This is really a discussion that is seeking to determine what minimum screen sizes and room dimensions for a two row home theater are. I suppose screen distance to back wall would also be a useful dimension. There seem to be a lot of discussions about what can be done with a room of a certain size. I thought that this would be a good discussion that is self contained that talked about what it takes to go from 1 row to 2 rows.

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post #2 of 31 Old 04-09-2018, 09:54 PM
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160” wide 2.35 (not sure diagonal)
12.5 ft front
19 ft back row
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post #3 of 31 Old 04-10-2018, 05:37 AM
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125" @ 2.35:1

9.5' to front row
16.5' to back row

You really want to borrow a projector, set it up and see what you like. I prefer to sit in the front row but my wife thinks it's too close. Your preference is going to be different than mine.
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post #4 of 31 Old 04-10-2018, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, yes. I'm mostly trying to gauge what I want. But the real curiosity is seeing what the smallest screens are and what the minimum second row distances are. That and getting opinions.


There is a lot of talk about what people can do in a certain sized room. But there is no real discussion that focuses on what it takes for two rows. Obviosuly a 150" screen can do two rows since the ratio of screen size to eye distance is a non issue. And clearly my 65" TV would never really work unless maybe row 2 were a bar immediately behind row 1 where a 12' deep room is plenty.


So I'm really trying to get opinions on what the minimum screen size is and minimum room depth.


I've gotten a "feeling" that you need a 20' deep room and 120" screen to do two rows correctly. But I really want to know if that is all there is to the equation. A 100" screen would bring row 1 closer but would that make row two to far out, etc.




THE POINT! I am seeking out real world dimensioning data of real two row theaters.

Denon 4300 receiver. Infinity speaker setup (SM line which is SM-122 up front an SM-82 in the rear and ceiling) along with a center channel (not SM line but maybe I should swap it out). Xbox One S source for Blu Ray and 4K blu Ray. Sony XBR850B.
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post #5 of 31 Old 04-10-2018, 07:57 AM
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The first pass is fairly simple. Look for the THX and SMPTE seating charts for closest and farthest recommended distances. Bottom line putting both together, about 60 degree horizontal viewing angle is closest, about 30 degree is farthest.

Figure 6.5 to 7 feet between rows. Its then a fairly simple math (or sketching/geometry) problem to figure out what width screen is needed to keep all rows between 30-60 degree spaced 6.5 feet apart for 1, 2, 3...rows.

Knowing width of screen, distance to back row, and adding some reasonable clearance on screen sides, behind rear row, and maybe for AT false walls, you have the minimum dimension for a room that can adequately support that many rows.

Notice that for 1 row there is no limit. ie a phone in front of your face satisfies all requirements. For a single row, pixel size and screen weave, type of speakers and minimum distance needed for a coherent wavefront become limiting factors on how small you can go.
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post #6 of 31 Old 04-10-2018, 01:57 PM
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As for size screen: go as large as the front wall can handle inc. space for speakers etc.
The one thing you want more of after the first buy is a bigger screen ^^.
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post #7 of 31 Old 04-10-2018, 02:19 PM
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100" screen (largest I could fit due to sloping ceiling)
12'6" Front Row Eyes (recliners)
17'6" Second Row Eyes (theater style seats)

Total room depth is 24'. I had enough room for both rows and a standing bar behind (actually have room for stools if desired). Plus I have a couple giant bean bags for anyone that wants the "front row at the theater" experience. At my main distance, I could easily see having a 135" screen, possibly a bit more before I'd want to be a bit further back.

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post #8 of 31 Old 04-10-2018, 02:43 PM
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6 1/2 ft seat back to seat back for reclining HT seating. My eyes in the front row center captains chair are 1.15 screen widths back from a 2.35:1 screen. I've worked with some guys who want to be at 1x screen width. It is really personal preference and if this is your first HT buy your projector and shine it on a blank wall before buying your screen.
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post #9 of 31 Old 04-10-2018, 02:55 PM
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165" diagonal
14' front row
20' rear row

I was worried the screen size would be too big but combined with Atmos, I feel like I am a part of the movie.
Scott

Old pic before JTRs and room treatments:



Current setup but trying to make room for an AT screen so I can get the center up where it belongs.


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post #10 of 31 Old 04-11-2018, 10:38 PM
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I've got a 105" wide 114" diagonal (16:9) screen. My front row eyeballs are about 9.5 - 10 feet and my back row eyeballs are about 17 feet. I have a somewhat narrow room and that was the widest and tallest screen I could fit (unless I wanted it under the soffit making the bottom of the screen unviewable). I wanted to have the biggest possible screen so I didn't have any regrets. I had the same worries as you about being too close, but the size has been great. Wish I could have gone bigger. Pics are a little misleading because of the wide-angle lens, but here's what it looks like to give you an idea of spacing.



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post #11 of 31 Old 04-12-2018, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kfh227 View Post
Ok.... I've been researching seating, view and ng distances, screen sizes, etc. If you have 2 rows, please post diagonal of screen, row one distance to eye and row two distance to eye


UPDATE:
Any real world anecdoates about your setup are welcome.


This is really a discussion that is seeking to determine what minimum screen sizes and room dimensions for a two row home theater are. I suppose screen distance to back wall would also be a useful dimension. There seem to be a lot of discussions about what can be done with a room of a certain size. I thought that this would be a good discussion that is self contained that talked about what it takes to go from 1 row to 2 rows.
There are a few variables to this. How high is your ceiling? Are you wanting to go 16:9 or 2.35:1/2.40:1? Do you want an Acoustically Transparent screen or not? How wide is the room? How long is the room? What type of chairs are you going to use?

For example; if you had a 95" wide X 53" tall 16:9 regular screen, your eyes would be at about 10' from the screen. If the seats are theater recliners you would want your eyes in the rear row at about 17.5' from the screen. This should give you about 10" between the front row and back row when it is reclined. You would also want at least 2-3' of space from the back row to the back wall. Now for the second row to see over the first row you will need a riser anywhere from 14-20" tall depending on how high your screen is off the floor.

Now for a 2.35:/2.40:1 screens at the same distances the screen size could be 125-127" wide and 53-55" tall. Also if you want a AT screen you will need around 24-36" space behind the screen unless you go with in-walls and you could get away with maybe 8-12" of space needed.

I used these calculators to figure this out.

https://www.screeninnovations.com/to...ze-calculator/

http://www.displaywars.com/136-inch-...-109-inch-16x9

http://www.diymovierooms.com/Content/RiserHeight

Like BIG and others have said it also depends on what you like and how far back to sit. I have a 105" wide, 120" diagonal 16:9 regular screen and sit at about 10.5' eyes to screen when setting upright and am fine with this. The first calculator says to be 11' back. I could probably go as close as 10', but 10.5' feels better. I also agree if you can get a projector to try out first would help a lot. When I bought my screen I didn't know much about 2.35:1 screens or AT screens like I do now and I want a larger screen now.

Hope this helps and this is just what I have found over the last year or so.

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post #12 of 31 Old 04-12-2018, 09:55 AM
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My theater is 16' 9" wide by 15' 10" deep to the little divider from the wetbar area, with an 8' ceiling.



I don't have any good pics yet that show the entire room with a screen, so here it was with a 70" LCD for an idea.







The seats are middle and back row Seatcraft Rialtos. The back row has a 6" riser built in.







Front row is 8' from eyeball to screen when fully upright. The back row is 13' 6".



Here's what a 100" diag drop down screen looked like.







I replaced the drop down with a 106" diag fixed screen.







This is the POV from a reclined position in the back row.







I was concerned the 106" screen would be too large for the front row at 8', but it's not. I could've put a 110" with no problem. I also considered 2.35:1, but we watch a lot of TV and play Xbox in there, and I thought the black bars at the top and bottom of 2.35:1 movies would be less distracting than bars on the side of everything else.

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post #13 of 31 Old 04-13-2018, 07:06 AM
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75" Sony XBR900E
First Row 9'
Second Row 14'

Works fine for me, I could see going bigger in the future but am not disappointed with the current size. I probably would not do anything beyond 120" until true 4K projectors are affordable due to how close I sit. I will also say I wouldn't do bigger than my current setup if I was a huge gamer...although hardcore gamers tend to play on monitors at close distance.

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post #14 of 31 Old 04-13-2018, 10:21 AM
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Image - 163"
Front row - 12' 6"
Second row - 18'-6"
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post #15 of 31 Old 04-13-2018, 11:29 AM
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Not 100% decided but the current plan is a 141" 2.35:1 screen. First row ~10' and ~16.5' for the second row. Still considering 16:9 and masking... which would make the diagonal 149".

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post #16 of 31 Old 04-13-2018, 01:45 PM
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Here's my real world anecdote:

I'm about to start the construction of my room
I used projector central to help choose my PJ.
Room is in my basement, ~15' x 17' with 7.5' ceilings. No windows, full HVAC in the room already.

I chose a Benq 2050 because of the short throw and good reviews.
After it arrived I used the information from project central to mount the PJ on the ceiling.

I was after a 120" 16x9 screen. Left me with plenty of room for L/R/C. Fired it up and adjusted until it was the size I was looking for. NICE!!!

Then it was on to the WAF. Set up a couple of chairs in the room, First comment, does it have to be so big?! (anyway)

She commented that it was hard for her to follow the entire screen no matter how far back she sat in the room.

Ok, reduced the screen size to 115" and then 110". Bingo, 110" was just fine for her sitting between 8-10' from the screen.

Scientific? no, real world, yep.
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post #17 of 31 Old 04-14-2018, 04:49 AM
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I'm in the same boat as you, and used to believe in the "largest screen possible", having had that in the past with my prior setup. However, I would be very wary of it being too big (aside from WAF). If you look at the chart Big provided, the 20th Cenury Fox reference is at 45 degrees. That is the distance at which most people have the full field of view without having to turn your neck. A very large screen may feel immersive, but your eyes may dart all over the screen to follow the action and your neck gets tired doing the same. I will be putting up my projector first, then deciding on screen size and final placement of my chairs, second row, and riser dimensions.
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post #18 of 31 Old 04-14-2018, 07:04 AM
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142" 2.35:1

First row eyes at 12', second row eyes at 18.5'.

That's 1x screen width for first row and 1.5x screen width for second row. I feel like the proportions are perfect, very comfortable viewing and very immersive. I use first row exclusively.
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post #19 of 31 Old 04-18-2018, 01:50 PM
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Well, let me give another opinion.


We're starting our planning and are fitting in 2 rows with about 16'6" from screen to back wall. That puts our front-row eyes at 7-8 feet from the screen. We taped out a 144" wide 2.4:1 screen on the wall, and my wife (bless her beautiful soul) said that it was too small!


For what it's worth, engineer and IMAX co-founder William Shaw described the essential elements of IMAX theater design in a 1983 article in the SMPTE Journal, co-authored with J. Creighton Douglas, and quantified the relationship between the seating area and screen size (http://www.lfexaminer.com/20090522a.htm):

"Because of the amount of information on the large format, we aim for a minimum eye-to-screen distance of 0.35 times…screen width and a maximum distance to the last row equal…to the screen width."


Being only 7 feet from even a 16' screen is still above the minimum distance for a traditional IMAX screen. Not everyone likes that immersive of an experience, but there are some of us that do. I guess my point is that things the SMPTE numbers are not laws - everyone has their own tastes.
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post #20 of 31 Old 04-18-2018, 02:05 PM
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Just curious, 7 feet from a 16 foot screen in how tall of a room? Im thinking you would need the screen up high to prevent your heads from blocking out some of the picture.
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post #21 of 31 Old 04-18-2018, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Just curious, 7 feet from a 16 foot screen in how tall of a room? Im thinking you would need the screen up high to prevent your heads from blocking out some of the picture.
Working on that. We have ~11-12 ft available. We can drop a ceiling down wherever want to hide HVAC, cables, and Atmos. Trying to finalize our (desired) screen dimensions and see if the rest of the plans can accommodate.
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post #22 of 31 Old 04-18-2018, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trammer View Post
Well, let me give another opinion.


We're starting our planning and are fitting in 2 rows with about 16'6" from screen to back wall. That puts our front-row eyes at 7-8 feet from the screen. We taped out a 144" wide 2.4:1 screen on the wall, and my wife (bless her beautiful soul) said that it was too small!


For what it's worth, engineer and IMAX co-founder William Shaw described the essential elements of IMAX theater design in a 1983 article in the SMPTE Journal, co-authored with J. Creighton Douglas, and quantified the relationship between the seating area and screen size (http://www.lfexaminer.com/20090522a.htm):

"Because of the amount of information on the large format, we aim for a minimum eye-to-screen distance of 0.35 times…screen width and a maximum distance to the last row equal…to the screen width."


Being only 7 feet from even a 16' screen is still above the minimum distance for a traditional IMAX screen. Not everyone likes that immersive of an experience, but there are some of us that do. I guess my point is that things the SMPTE numbers are not laws - everyone has their own tastes.
Taping it out and thinking it is to small and watching it are two different things. If you don't have a projector I suggest borrowing one to see how it looks. For a 12' wide 2.40:1 screen I would want to sit back at maybe 10 to 11'.
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post #23 of 31 Old 04-18-2018, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
Taping it out and thinking it is to small and watching it are two different things. If you don't have a projector I suggest borrowing one to see how it looks. For a 12' wide 2.40:1 screen I would want to sit back at maybe 10 to 11'.
Yup - we've got a projector set up. It is tough without a ceiling mount to get the image low enough on the wall and relatively square without our heads getting in the way with the spare PJ we're using to test, but it's good enough for a test. We're going to try a few configurations (2.4:1 v. 16:9, 12' v. 16' wide) over the weekend.
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post #24 of 31 Old 04-18-2018, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trammer View Post
Yup - we've got a projector set up. It is tough without a ceiling mount to get the image low enough on the wall and relatively square without our heads getting in the way with the spare PJ we're using to test, but it's good enough for a test. We're going to try a few configurations (2.4:1 v. 16:9, 12' v. 16' wide) over the weekend.
Good luck. Big difference between 12' and 16'. I have seen a 13' 2.35:1 screen, but was sitting in the second row and was nice. Didn't get to experience the but think she's to screen is 11' to 12'.

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post #25 of 31 Old 04-19-2018, 07:16 AM
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180" screen
first row is 11'
second is 18'
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post #26 of 31 Old 04-19-2018, 07:18 AM
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Our screen only has 3" gap on the right or left of it and because of the short ceiling height we went with the 2.39:1 ratio. We will never ask ourselves should we have gone bigger.
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post #27 of 31 Old 04-19-2018, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerumas View Post
180" screen
first row is 11'
second is 18'
WOW, that's close for the first row, but if you like it it should work.
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post #28 of 31 Old 04-19-2018, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerumas View Post
180" screen
first row is 11'
second is 18'
Is that 180" diagonal, or width? (I'll presume it's not height)

Your build looks beautiful, by the way!
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post #29 of 31 Old 04-19-2018, 01:25 PM
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I'm running a 104" wide 16:9 screen that is semi permanently masked to 2.40. The masks only come of for IMAX aspect changing movies (once so far in the last 14 months). Everything else is watched constant Image Height.

The front row is approx 88 inches eye to screen which is spprox 2x the image height and the horizontal viewing angle is around 60 degrees. That's SMPTEs closest recommended seating distance but works fine - we have around 120 degrees horizontal binocular vision so never any real need to move your head even at that distance. My vertical viewing angle (eyes to top of 2.40 screen) is around 15 degrees and is also ok, but is at the max recommended for comfortable prolonged viewing. IMAX movies on this setup have the same horizontal viewing angle as only the height changes, but the vertical is around 20 degrees (1.5x image height). Commercial IMAX is around 70 degrees when sat central to the screen IIRC so has you sitting closer still.

I use commercial theatre seats so no reclining and the second row is 38 inches back from the first on an 11.5" riser, at around 2.8 to 2.9 x screen heights back (for scope) and only approx a 6 degree vertical viewing angle.

Not shown in the image posted earlier, is THXs 'optimal' viewing distance which is 2.4x the image height, or approx one screen width of a 2.40:1 screen. That also gives you 40 degrees for 16:9 content that would be pillar boxed within the scope image.

For most people, viewing height is more of a problem than width (looking up and neck ache), so having a smaller screen too high can be more uncomfortable to watch than a larger screen lower down for example. An AT screen can be useful for that as you don't have to worry about having the centre low down or on the floor, and reduces the likelihood of the first row viewers blocking the sound to the second row (mounting above the screen may be better in that case).
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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #30 of 31 Old 04-22-2018, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trammer View Post
Is that 180" diagonal, or width? (I'll presume it's not height)

Your build looks beautiful, by the way!
Diagonal, yeah its close but we love it.
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