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post #2971 of 3450 Old 07-29-2019, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Spidacat View Post
Another quick follow up question. How do you keep your chairs from sliding around on the platform? When I put my sectional on the platform for sub hole measurement I decided to vacuum and steam clean the area. I sat down a little later and could tell the couch slid backwards on the plywood. I guess I could nail/screw/glue some blocks to the back and outside of where the legs will sit on the platform?


I put sticky Velcro under the chair feet and it holds really well


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post #2972 of 3450 Old 07-30-2019, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
Thanks! I have the Octane Charger XS300's with manual recline. They are pretty comfy and get the job done, but on a budget of course! The main selling point for me was that I could fit four seats in my limited space.



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Thanks m0j0
Now to find if there is a Canadian distributor with them available.
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post #2973 of 3450 Old 07-30-2019, 01:11 PM
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Hi All,

I'm looking to add two transducers to a flight sim rig for DCS world. I haven't had the time yet, to read through all the comments.
I did read a review saying how the jbl is better than the earthquake, which I was looking into, but it is really expensive.

Which of these two JBL's (or a different one) should I get.

JBL CX1200 or
JBL s2-1224ss 1100w

One thing, the earthquake goes as low as 5Hz I think, the JBL's not below 23Hz I think. Would they be able to deliver the same level of strong
vibration?

From the thread:

Quote:
There's a CS1214T which is a sub in a tube box. Doable, though at ~£120 and throwing away the tube it seems a bit daft.

The cheapest JBL 12" seems to be the GT5-12 1100W, 90db and 27Hz–450Hz at about £50

There's a GT-X1200 1200w, 90db and 23Hz-450kHz at £70

And possibly the more interesting JBL S2-1224 at 1100w, 93db, but 25-175Hz but it's £90
Would the Behringer iNuke NU4-6000 be a good choice for powering two of them? (max. amount allowed by simshaker for DCS)

Cheers,

Wim
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post #2974 of 3450 Old 07-30-2019, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by willem81 View Post
Hi All,

I'm looking to add two transducers to a flight sim rig for DCS world. I haven't had the time yet, to read through all the comments.
I did read a review saying how the jbl is better than the earthquake, which I was looking into, but it is really expensive.

Which of these two JBL's (or a different one) should I get.

JBL CX1200 or
JBL s2-1224ss 1100w

One thing, the earthquake goes as low as 5Hz I think, the JBL's not below 23Hz I think. Would they be able to deliver the same level of strong
vibration?

From the thread:



Would the Behringer iNuke NU4-6000 be a good choice for powering two of them? (max. amount allowed by simshaker for DCS)

Cheers,

Wim
Wim....Thanks for stopping by and describing what you want to accomplish with your flight sim rig for DCS world. I don't know much about the flight sim rigs or maybe yours will be DIY.

Either way, you mention a maximum of 2 woofers are allowed by Simshaker so I'm guessing you can balance power to each of the 2 woofers to evoke a stereo type of effect for the "shaking". If so, that's very cool and makes me wonder if that algorithm could be used for home theater applications also by extracting a left and right subwoofer signal from just 1 subwoofer signal. I'll have to check out Simshaker some more to find out...pretty cool if that's the case.

Anyway, for your 2 driver simulator platform, I'm presuming it's a variation of the open baffle mini-riser BOSS design as I drew in post 29. If so, the open baffle configuration allows the drivers to reach into single digit frequencies with very low power while delivering incredible single digit shaking to the butt that will feel so incredibly natural....perfect for a flight simulator.

I modeled the JBL S2-1224 and compared it to the baseline BOSS driver you mentioned (CX-1200). The WinISD results are below. Basically, the S2-1224 has 87% of the moving mass (155g vs. 179g) and 85% of the excursion (10.25mm vs. 12mm) for a shaker potential of .74 that of the baseline BOSS driver. So, 3 of the S2-1224's would equal 2 of the CX-1200's when used on a BOSS platform as outlined in Post 29.

Both models only need about 80 watts to reach max excursion below 10 Hz from the graph below....red is the S2-1224 and blue is the CX-1200. Any stereo amplifier that's capable of delivering 80 watts into 4 ohms per channel will work great for your 2 subwoofer platform. The NU4-6000 is way too much for just 2 drivers in a BOSS configuration. If you plan to use the 6000, be sure to get the DSP version so that you can limit how much power each subwoofer will get. They don't need much power in a BOSS configuration (open baffle) when you follow the guidelines in Post 29.

Hope this helps.

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post #2975 of 3450 Old 07-31-2019, 12:25 PM
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Dunno if anybody did this already, but I was a little bored today and simmed a small BOSS platform in HR today.
I simmed a back loaded horn (BLH) with the driver facing the floor, backmounted to a plaftorm 3cm off the ground (my BOSS platform).
As expected the FR is horrible but that's great for us (keeping TR and LFE devices separated), as already mentioned many times before. That wasn't a surprise to me, but that was also not what I wanted to confirm. Instead of doing actual experiments with adding mass to the cone, I let HR handle this part for me.
What exactly did I do? Well if you add mass to the cone, the efficiency of the driver drops, but the lower frequencies go, the easier it is to push the cone to high excursions.
So I just looked at cone excursion of a driver with just over 30V applied to (~250W). If it can still reach Xmax with the added mass with the applied voltage, that will mean the TR capabilities increased. I aimed to get to the highest cone mass, while being able to reach Xmax at all frequencies below 20Hz (arguably all frequencies where you really want your BOSS to play at maximum capability).


So, here are my inputs and increased mass simulations:





I was quite surprised that the ideal cone mass would be over 1kg, or about 7x the original cone mass.
This means that, if we add about 2lbs of mass to the cone, we'll increase one driver's TR capabilities by 600%. Neat!?

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post #2976 of 3450 Old 07-31-2019, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I was quite surprised that the ideal cone mass would be over 1kg, or about 7x the original cone mass.
This means that, if we add about 2lbs of mass to the cone, we'll increase one driver's TR capabilities by 600%. Neat!?
Hey peniku8.....Thanks for re-visiting the added mass idea. I did a similar model back when the idea first came up and was also surprised the power increase wasn't that much compared to the increase in shaker potential.

I don't have any spare JBL's right now to experiment with, but was going to epoxy glue some solder wire (the thick stuff) around the dust caps to make the total Mms around 1.2 lb (3x increase in Mms). The thought was to see if that one driver does indeed deliver the same TR as my 3 drivers in the back row BOSS riser.

My concern with the added mass......the surround material on the JBL's won't survive the extra dynamic force and will fail pre-maturely causing mechanical damage due to bottoming. Or, if the motor is strong enough to keep the cone and surround within mechanical limits, will the motor end up getting too hot due to the extra power and fail due to thermal overheating of the magnet wire.

This concern has kept me from sacrificing one of my JBL's for the sake of science since I don't have an extra one.

Would be interested in the results for sure if you decide to experiment.
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post #2977 of 3450 Old 07-31-2019, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
My concern with the added mass......the surround material on the JBL's won't survive the extra dynamic force and will fail pre-maturely causing mechanical damage due to bottoming. Or, if the motor is strong enough to keep the cone and surround within mechanical limits, will the motor end up getting too hot due to the extra power and fail due to thermal overheating of the magnet wire.

This concern has kept me from sacrificing one of my JBL's for the sake of science since I don't have an extra one.

Would be interested in the results for sure if you decide to experiment.

If you add mass to the cone in a symmetrical pattern, the forces on the surround should be minimal. If you start heavily clipping the driver, it might rip the entire cone clean off, but if you don't exceed Xmech the surround should be fine. I sold off all my spare drivers and subs last week, so I have little to experiment with
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post #2978 of 3450 Old 07-31-2019, 08:51 PM
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Okay boys, I've finally pulled it together and I believe I have everything that I need to get this project off the ground. I have a few questions that I'm hoping you lads can help me out with.

Instead of building a platform I'm going with the subs in the bottom of the couch route. My couch is shaped like an L, and I'm only planning on putting subs on the primary side of the couch that faces the screen (at least initially). I've read a lot about how too many subs mounted to one piece of wood can reduce how rigid the wood is and thus dampen the effect. On the primary section of the couch I can fit three subs, but would I be better off running with two?

Here is a picture of my couch:


My second question is in regards to wiring. If I end up running two subs should I be wiring them up like this:


I'm not sure if it matters but the amp I using is a iNuke1000DSP.

Thanks in advance guys!
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post #2979 of 3450 Old 07-31-2019, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DigiWega View Post



Thanks in advance guys!
Congrats on getting into the BOSS! We like it around here.

I think directly coupling them to the couch frame negates some of the necessity for a more rigid platform underneath like some of the riser builds, but you may want to add some bracing between the couch joists. If you can fit three drivers, the more the merrier. Either way, I’d just wire them in series. The diagram you linked is for parallel which isn’t really necessary for their lower power needs.


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post #2980 of 3450 Old 08-01-2019, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigiWega View Post
Okay boys, I've finally pulled it together and I believe I have everything that I need to get this project off the ground. I have a few questions that I'm hoping you lads can help me out with.

Instead of building a platform I'm going with the subs in the bottom of the couch route.
Don't forget that since you are direct mounting the subs to the couch itself, you will want some sort of isolation mounted under the feet of your couch in order for the vibration effect to be more effective... exactly the same as what is required if you were mounting buttkickers to the bottom of your couch. Otherwise you end up trying to move not only your couch but your floor too.... I am sure there are examples of this type of isolation in the thread .... otherwise you can purchase Buttkicker couch feet isolators from PartsExpress.... either the small or medium style would work well for you...

https://www.parts-express.com/buttki...of-4--300-9460

https://www.parts-express.com/buttki...of-5--300-9462
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post #2981 of 3450 Old 08-01-2019, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DigiWega View Post
Okay boys, I've finally pulled it together and I believe I have everything that I need to get this project off the ground. I have a few questions that I'm hoping you lads can help me out with.

Instead of building a platform I'm going with the subs in the bottom of the couch route. My couch is shaped like an L, and I'm only planning on putting subs on the primary side of the couch that faces the screen (at least initially). I've read a lot about how too many subs mounted to one piece of wood can reduce how rigid the wood is and thus dampen the effect. On the primary section of the couch I can fit three subs, but would I be better off running with two?

My second question is in regards to wiring. If I end up running two subs should I be wiring them up like this.

I'm not sure if it matters but the amp I using is a iNuke1000DSP.

Thanks in advance guys!
In addition to the excellent advise from Sekosche and deano86......below are a few supplements.

For your couch framing, if possible, use a sheet of plywood to tie everything together with wood screws and glue. That will make the entire couch frame very rigid while also giving you a great mounting surface for the drivers. Some couches can be rather flimsy, especially older ones. And, even more so, ones that have been moved several times from room to room or house to house. Tying everything together with plywood, glues and screws will make it very rigid just like the day it left the furniture factory.

If it's not rigid, each driver starts to work against each other as bending of the couch frame occurs. As an example, think of a buttkicker working out of time with a BOSS driver. That buttkicker will subtract from the BOSS driver TR with every millisecond of mis-timing and will cancel the BOSS TR entirely once both are 180 degrees out of phase.

With multiple TR devices, timing of each device is critical. Even more so than timing of SPL waves from your speakers. This is because the medium that the waves are propagating through are much more dense with TR than SPL (wood transmits vibration much more efficiently than air).

When developing the BOSS, that was the most critical influence on overall TR.....minimizing the timing errors of each BOSS driver and the only way to do that is to make the platform as rigid as possible.

Those with multiple TR devices on their BOSS platforms are still experimenting to find that magic setting for each device because timing is so critical. To really dial things in with multiple devices, vibration and timing of each TR device needs to be measured independently and time-aligned much like we do with REW and dialing in SPL response by measuring each speaker contributing to the SPL in the room, then putting it all together in the end.

The problem with measuring TR devices, there's really no good hobbyist vibration measurement devices to allow this to happen. @3ll3d00d 's DIY vibration measuring system using raspberry pi is about as close as us hobbyist will get to having the ability to measure TR like the pros who use equipment costing 5 figures.

So, that's the importance of platform rigidity as a refresher for those with BOSS platforms already and for those just jumping on the BOSS train.

The power is much more straight forward, just make sure to dial in the TR with a few favorite demo scenes at a volume level you would normally listen. It doesn't take much power for an open baffle driver to reach Xmax, which is a great thing when it comes to delivery incredible single digit TR with such low power levels with a BOSS.

Lastly, as deano86 mentioned, the 3rd ingredient....the isolators. Make sure the isolators are 20-40 durometer in softness. This allows the BOSS platform to move freely as designed regardless of what flooring is below it. Some with thick carpet and carpet padding are reporting that's enough "springiness" to allow the BOSS to deliver the smiles. But, you won't really know until you have tried the softer rubber and compare because each setup and flooring substrate is different.

Wow, that was kinda long but thought it might be beneficial as a refresher on BOSS technology
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post #2982 of 3450 Old 08-01-2019, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Don't forget that since you are direct mounting the subs to the couch itself, you will want some sort of isolation mounted under the feet of your couch in order for the vibration effect to be more effective... exactly the same as what is required if you were mounting buttkickers to the bottom of your couch. Otherwise you end up trying to move not only your couch but your floor too.... I am sure there are examples of this type of isolation in the thread .... otherwise you can purchase Buttkicker couch feet isolators from PartsExpress.... either the small or medium style would work well for you...
For the bold above, post 29 has a link to the prescribed isolators with the correct softness. If the parts express isolators are between 20-40 durometer they will work also. I thought someone reported the Buttkicker and Parts Express isos were much stiffer than the isos prescribed in post 29, but I don't recall the details. If they're between 20-40 durometer they will work fine.
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post #2983 of 3450 Old 08-01-2019, 08:50 AM
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@Sekosche @deano86 thank you so much for the feedback guys.

Originally I was planning on attaching the subs to the couch and placing Hudson Hi-Fi isolators on the feet to try to keep a stock look as much as possible for WAF. But Now I’m thinking I should just ditch the legs of the couch and sit it directly on the Boss platform?

Also maybe I should try two subs first before adding more, any thoughts on this?
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post #2984 of 3450 Old 08-01-2019, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
In addition to the excellent advise from Sekosche and deano86......below are a few supplements.

For your couch framing, if possible, use a sheet of plywood to tie everything together with wood screws and glue. That will make the entire couch frame very rigid while also giving you a great mounting surface for the drivers. Some couches can be rather flimsy, especially older ones. And, even more so, ones that have been moved several times from room to room or house to house. Tying everything together with plywood, glues and screws will make it very rigid just like the day it left the furniture factory.

If it's not rigid, each driver starts to work against each other as bending of the couch frame occurs. As an example, think of a buttkicker working out of time with a BOSS driver. That buttkicker will subtract from the BOSS driver TR with every millisecond of mis-timing and will cancel the BOSS TR entirely once both are 180 degrees out of phase.

With multiple TR devices, timing of each device is critical. Even more so than timing of SPL waves from your speakers. This is because the medium that the waves are propagating through are much more dense with TR than SPL (wood transmits vibration much more efficiently than air).

When developing the BOSS, that was the most critical influence on overall TR.....minimizing the timing errors of each BOSS driver and the only way to do that is to make the platform as rigid as possible.

Those with multiple TR devices on their BOSS platforms are still experimenting to find that magic setting for each device because timing is so critical. To really dial things in with multiple devices, vibration and timing of each TR device needs to be measured independently and time-aligned much like we do with REW and dialing in SPL response by measuring each speaker contributing to the SPL in the room, then putting it all together in the end.

The problem with measuring TR devices, there's really no good hobbyist vibration measurement devices to allow this to happen. @3ll3d00d 's DIY vibration measuring system using raspberry pi is about as close as us hobbyist will get to having the ability to measure TR like the pros who use equipment costing 5 figures.

So, that's the importance of platform rigidity as a refresher for those with BOSS platforms already and for those just jumping on the BOSS train.

The power is much more straight forward, just make sure to dial in the TR with a few favorite demo scenes at a volume level you would normally listen. It doesn't take much power for an open baffle driver to reach Xmax, which is a great thing when it comes to delivery incredible single digit TR with such low power levels with a BOSS.

Lastly, as deano86 mentioned, the 3rd ingredient....the isolators. Make sure the isolators are 20-40 durometer in softness. This allows the BOSS platform to move freely as designed regardless of what flooring is below it. Some with thick carpet and carpet padding are reporting that's enough "springiness" to allow the BOSS to deliver the smiles. But, you won't really know until you have tried the softer rubber and compare because each setup and flooring substrate is different.

Wow, that was kinda long but thought it might be beneficial as a refresher on BOSS technology
Thanks for writing this up @trhought , I really appreciate your insight. If I end up just placing the couch on the BOSS platform I probably don't need to reinforce it, right?

You make great points about dialing in the platform and I look forward to taking the tine to do that.

The isolators I have are 20 duro, so they should do the trick. I only have four but I ordered another four.

As always thanks for the feedback guys!
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post #2985 of 3450 Old 08-01-2019, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for writing this up @trhought , I really appreciate your insight. If I end up just placing the couch on the BOSS platform I probably don't need to reinforce it, right?

You make great points about dialing in the platform and I look forward to taking the tine to do that.

The isolators I have are 20 duro, so they should do the trick. I only have four but I ordered another four.

As always thanks for the feedback guys!
DigiWega.....good question about placing the couch directly on the platform vs. fastening it. If I understand your couch configuration correctly from the picture you posted above....it looks like once the legs are removed, the entire bottom frame of the couch is in the same plane including those middle braces. If so, I would fasten the plywood to the couch frame and middle braces with some wood screws. Shoot the screws from the bottom of the platform through the plywood and into the couch frame. This will add stiffness to the plywood platform which is a good thing. This will also keep the couch from moving on the platform during spirited listening sessions.

For the isolators, 4 may be all that's needed if you're able to fasten the couch frame to the plywood as I described above and use those middle supports while doing so. You'll basically have a very stiff mini-riser if you can do it this way and will only need to support the couch on the 4 corners. Additional isolators for mini-riser platforms are usually only needed to keep the middle of the platform from flexing too much while everyone is sitting on it. This flexing reduces the clearance between the driver face and the floor and not allow the drivers to "breath" properly. If you can fasten the plywood directly to your couch frame and use those middle supports, your platform shouldn't flex when everyone is seated. If it does, then just add 1 more isolator right in the middle of the platform.

Hope this feedback helps.
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post #2986 of 3450 Old 08-01-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
DigiWega.....good question about placing the couch directly on the platform vs. fastening it. If I understand your couch configuration correctly from the picture you posted above....it looks like once the legs are removed, the entire bottom frame of the couch is in the same plane including those middle braces. If so, I would fasten the plywood to the couch frame and middle braces with some wood screws. Shoot the screws from the bottom of the platform through the plywood and into the couch frame. This will add stiffness to the plywood platform which is a good thing. This will also keep the couch from moving on the platform during spirited listening sessions.

For the isolators, 4 may be all that's needed if you're able to fasten the couch frame to the plywood as I described above and use those middle supports while doing so. You'll basically have a very stiff mini-riser if you can do it this way and will only need to support the couch on the 4 corners. Additional isolators for mini-riser platforms are usually only needed to keep the middle of the platform from flexing too much while everyone is sitting on it. This flexing reduces the clearance between the driver face and the floor and not allow the drivers to "breath" properly. If you can fasten the plywood directly to your couch frame and use those middle supports, your platform shouldn't flex when everyone is seated. If it does, then just add 1 more isolator right in the middle of the platform.

Hope this feedback helps.
Got it, makes sense. Per your advice I'll attach the mini BOSS platform to the couch to increase the stiffness of the platform and also add stability for the couch. And thank you for the insight on only using four isolators.

I'll keep you guys posted on my progress. Thank you again for taking the time to help me out and answer my questions, you guys are doing a great service to the community.
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post #2987 of 3450 Old 08-01-2019, 11:13 AM
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Hi trhought,

Thank you for the in-depth response! Sorry for the late reply.

Quote:
Either way, you mention a maximum of 2 woofers are allowed by Simshaker so I'm guessing you can balance power to each of the 2 woofers to evoke a stereo type of effect for the "shaking".
If so, that's very cool and makes me wonder if that algorithm could be used for home theater applications also by extracting a left and right subwoofer signal from just 1 subwoofer signal.
I'll have to check out Simshaker some more to find out...pretty cool if that's the case.
I’m not knowleagable enough unfortunately to know about what is possible or not, as far as getting it to work for a home theater, outside of DCS or racing games. I was going to delve into it further
once I decided upon a design for the rig, which will be DIY yes. What got me interested in using transducers was a video made by Roland van Roy showing how his flight sim rig reacted to a transducer he had installed on it.
It’s an old video and entry (search for bff_shaker_system - on simprojects.nl). But it got me intrigued. He stated that: “The final result is pretty awesome, and I really believe the vibration system outperforms the motion platform.”

The way he mounted the transducer here might give you some additional ideas. At least for flight sims it seems to be especially effective.

Quote:
Anyway, for your 2 driver simulator platform, I'm presuming it's a variation of the open baffle mini-riser BOSS design as I drew in post 29. If so, the open baffle configuration allows the drivers to reach into single digit frequencies
with very low power while delivering incredible single digit shaking to the butt that will feel so incredibly natural....perfect for a flight simulator.
Sounds great! Just what I was looking for!

I’m thinking of building a rig out of 40mm I aluminium profiles used by sim-lab or monstertech. Thought I don’t really know how good of a choice this is to get max. effectiveness from the JBL’s. Harwood or metal or best I guess.
And also, there’s so much info out there on isolation, placement, it’s a bit overwhelming, with endless possibilities, configurations. Great guidelines btw in your post 29. And in the newer posts as well. Much to think about.

As for isolation this was something I was also planning to try; please search for ‘Shaky Rig 2: Electric SimVibealoo’ on ISRTV. He has his seat mounted on a platform with springs underneath it. For a video of his rig in action,
search for ‘Shaky Rig #2 with 4x LFEs, Geko GS-105C, AccuForce’ on YT. The Springs in question are: “VMC Group BE-1C, available from McMaster-Carr as "Spring-Action High-Deflection Bolt-Down Vibration-Damping Mounts".
I'm currently using 250-pound springs in the front, left, and right; and a 150-pound spring in the back.”

Maybe it turns out to be more of a gimmick, not producing the result I was hoping for, but it might be nice for the DCS Huey module. On startup, the Huey starts to wobble as the rotor’s begin to spin.
(maybe something that is achievable with two transducers in stereo, don’t know if this works in simshaker though). As the rpm increases, the frequency goes up and the wobble subsides, turning into a more steady, finer vibration.
What seems nice about the spring approach is that you do get additional movement this way. But Mr. Latte, the go-to transducer expert on one of the simracing forums, doesn’t seem to be fond of this approach; using springs for motion.
Looking at that video again, I don’t think it is doable, and you really need a motion platform. Please see ‘DIY 6DOF Motion Platform - DCS Huey - Oculus Rift’ on YT to see what I mean (min. 2:18). Anyway, just having engine vibrations,
or from the gun, or the skids making contact with the ground, all of that would be awesome, and I know simshaker is capable of this.

I was going to mount one transducer directly underneath the seat (on top of the alu rig on which the seat slider/frame is mounted) or beneath the seat on a hardwood/metal platform, with the alu rig mounted on top of it.
I might use rubber isolators under the hardwood platform (now maybe those “20-40 durometer in softness” like you suggested), or put those springs underneath it. Perhaps it’s could be an idea to mount two JBL’s, one on each side of the rig,
hopefully to get that startup effect. But again, I need to do a lot of reading first. I have no experience whatsoever. Also for simshaker I think you need to have a separate soundcard installed.
A good setup guide can be found on the 476vfightergroup website. Just search for ‘Setting up a Buttkicker (or other transducers)’.

Quote:
I modeled the JBL S2-1224 and compared it to the baseline BOSS driver you mentioned (CX-1200). The WinISD results are below. Basically, the S2-1224 has 87% of the moving mass (155g vs. 179g) and 85% of the excursion (10.25mm vs. 12mm)
for a shaker potential of .74 that of the baseline BOSS driver. So, 3 of the S2-1224's would equal 2 of the CX-1200's when used on a BOSS platform as outlined in Post 29.
Great info, thanks for the comparison! So I'll buy the 1200’s then.

Quote:
The NU4-6000 is way too much for just 2 drivers in a BOSS configuration. If you plan to use the 6000, be sure to get the DSP version so that you can limit how much power each subwoofer will get.
The Behringer NX1000/NX3000D seems like a good choice then.
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post #2988 of 3450 Old 08-01-2019, 03:10 PM
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OK, I gave up waiting on my friend to help me with cutting the holes. I forgot I had a 3-n-1 drill/sander/jigsaw. The bad part is that even though I have 2 batteries, they were basically doo-doo. Took me about 10 combined charges to make the cuts but they're finally done. Subs seem to fit fine. Put a quick coat of primer on the top and will at least paint the visible parts tomorrow. Already have the Hudson isolators and the carpet savers are supposed to be here Saturday.

Anyone familiar with the compressor settings for a miniDSP 2x4 HD? Maybe I'm searching for the wrong thing but all I can seem to find is the miniDSP manual which doesn't really tell me anything useful.
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post #2989 of 3450 Old 08-01-2019, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by willem81 View Post
Hi trhought,

Sounds great! Just what I was looking for!

I’m thinking of building a rig out of 40mm I aluminium profiles used by sim-lab or monstertech. Thought I don’t really know how good of a choice this is to get max. effectiveness from the JBL’s. Harwood or metal or best I guess.
And also, there’s so much info out there on isolation, placement, it’s a bit overwhelming, with endless possibilities, configurations. Great guidelines btw in your post 29. And in the newer posts as well. Much to think about.

As for isolation this was something I was also planning to try; please search for ‘Shaky Rig 2: Electric SimVibealoo’ on ISRTV. He has his seat mounted on a platform with springs underneath it. For a video of his rig in action,
search for ‘Shaky Rig #2 with 4x LFEs, Geko GS-105C, AccuForce’ on YT. The Springs in question are: “VMC Group BE-1C, available from McMaster-Carr as "Spring-Action High-Deflection Bolt-Down Vibration-Damping Mounts".
I'm currently using 250-pound springs in the front, left, and right; and a 150-pound spring in the back.”

Maybe it turns out to be more of a gimmick, not producing the result I was hoping for, but it might be nice for the DCS Huey module. On startup, the Huey starts to wobble as the rotor’s begin to spin.
(maybe something that is achievable with two transducers in stereo, don’t know if this works in simshaker though). As the rpm increases, the frequency goes up and the wobble subsides, turning into a more steady, finer vibration.
What seems nice about the spring approach is that you do get additional movement this way. But Mr. Latte, the go-to transducer expert on one of the simracing forums, doesn’t seem to be fond of this approach; using springs for motion.
Looking at that video again, I don’t think it is doable, and you really need a motion platform. Please see ‘DIY 6DOF Motion Platform - DCS Huey - Oculus Rift’ on YT to see what I mean (min. 2:18). Anyway, just having engine vibrations,
or from the gun, or the skids making contact with the ground, all of that would be awesome, and I know simshaker is capable of this.

I was going to mount one transducer directly underneath the seat (on top of the alu rig on which the seat slider/frame is mounted) or beneath the seat on a hardwood/metal platform, with the alu rig mounted on top of it.
I might use rubber isolators under the hardwood platform (now maybe those “20-40 durometer in softness” like you suggested), or put those springs underneath it. Perhaps it’s could be an idea to mount two JBL’s, one on each side of the rig,
hopefully to get that startup effect. But again, I need to do a lot of reading first. I have no experience whatsoever. Also for simshaker I think you need to have a separate soundcard installed.
A good setup guide can be found on the 476vfightergroup website. Just search for ‘Setting up a Buttkicker (or other transducers)’.

Great info, thanks for the comparison! So I'll buy the 1200’s then.

The Behringer NX1000/NX3000D seems like a good choice then.
Wim.....Thanks for all the resource materials....I've got some homework to do

Yeah, I think you'll find the BOSS to feel quite natural and commanding even with just 1 driver. If it was me, I'd start with the simple, inexpensive mini-riser BOSS platform as outlined in Post 29 including the rubber isos as prescribed. For 1 or even 2 drivers, any stereo amp that can provide 80 watts into 4 ohms per channel will work great. This will keep your setup very simple. If you do get one of the Behringers, just make sure to get the D versions as you mentioned above and also get the neutrik connectors since the Berry's don't have standard speaker connects as is common in home audio.

I saw the simshaker software uses sound samples for the effects that sync with the flight simulators. Will be curious how low in frequency those sound samples go. You'll be able to feel the BOSS down to about 3Hz when following the guidelines in Post 29. I think you'll like the BOSS very much for your flight simulator.

Enjoy and looking forward to learning more about your setup and experience!
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post #2990 of 3450 Old 08-01-2019, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Spidacat View Post
OK, I gave up waiting on my friend to help me with cutting the holes. I forgot I had a 3-n-1 drill/sander/jigsaw. The bad part is that even though I have 2 batteries, they were basically doo-doo. Took me about 10 combined charges to make the cuts but they're finally done. Subs seem to fit fine. Put a quick coat of primer on the top and will at least paint the visible parts tomorrow. Already have the Hudson isolators and the carpet savers are supposed to be here Saturday.

Anyone familiar with the compressor settings for a miniDSP 2x4 HD? Maybe I'm searching for the wrong thing but all I can seem to find is the miniDSP manual which doesn't really tell me anything useful.
Congrats Spidacat on beginning your BOSS journey! Everything is coming together nicely. That's a bummer about all the charging you had to do....that would've drove me crazy! Won't be long and you'll be enjoying single digit ULF TR that will feel so natural and blend perfectly with your existing setup.

Nalleh is using the compressor function in his 10x10HD......he begins to describe how he's using them here

I think the miniDSP 2x4HD has the compressor feature also.

Hope this helps.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Nalleh is using the compressor function in his 10x10HD......he begins to describe how he's using them here
Yo Tim, thanks for helping out Spidacat with that link. If I'd known how to do that the other day I would have given it to him. Hitting quote on your post I can clearly see how it's done, fairly simple.
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Sony 75X940E, Denon X6200w, Sony X700, Roku Ultra, MiniDSP 2x4HD
Parasound (2x)HCA-855a, HCA-750a, Sony ES4300, BKA-1000 & -300
Mission 705a L&R, dual 70c3 C, 703 SL&SR, 705 BL&BR, (4x)Yamaha NSIC800 Atmos
LFE- Front: M&K MX-200 & MX-150THX; Rear: (2x)M&K V-75's
ULF- Bk LFE & Advance + (2x)Aura AST-2B-4 shakers + Mini-riser BOSS(8x12" JBL's)

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Wim.....Thanks for all the resource materials....I've got some homework to do

Yeah, I think you'll find the BOSS to feel quite natural and commanding even with just 1 driver. If it was me, I'd start with the simple, inexpensive mini-riser BOSS platform as outlined in Post 29 including the rubber isos as prescribed. For 1 or even 2 drivers, any stereo amp that can provide 80 watts into 4 ohms per channel will work great. This will keep your setup very simple. If you do get one of the Behringers, just make sure to get the D versions as you mentioned above and also get the neutrik connectors since the Berry's don't have standard speaker connects as is common in home audio.

I saw the simshaker software uses sound samples for the effects that sync with the flight simulators. Will be curious how low in frequency those sound samples go. You'll be able to feel the BOSS down to about 3Hz when following the guidelines in Post 29. I think you'll like the BOSS very much for your flight simulator.

Enjoy and looking forward to learning more about your setup and experience!
Yes, I'm going to order all the parts today. I'll post something when I have things working.

Cheers
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post #2993 of 3450 Old 08-02-2019, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
Yo Tim, thanks for helping out Spidacat with that link. If I'd known how to do that the other day I would have given it to him. Hitting quote on your post I can clearly see how it's done, fairly simple.
Hey Kev....no problem on the link....SBuger helped me with the how-to's on quoting a few months back....it's a handy tool for sure!
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Quick update... It's been a couple of months since we got the HoverCouch up & running. The inner-tube suspension(in lieu of foam isolators) has been problem free. It may be that the drivers & BK's are getting broken in, but for whatever reason, it's working better than ever. Thus far, there's been no downside to this unconventional approach and it was dirt cheap. One unexpected perk is that the tubes serve to anchor the couch sections in place such that they no longer try to separate. If anyone's feeling adventurous, I'd be very interested to know if this suspension provides additional TR over the more conventional approach. Since it would only require placing a bike tube between each driver & the floor, it would be quick, cheap & easy to try. Who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised...

In the serendipity dept, we watched "Missing Link" last night. We had very low expectations for this flick, but the flick won us over with some clever writing. The HoverCouch goodness was off the charts. We were actually laughing out loud midway through - it was so much fun. If you haven't already seen(felt) this flick, I strongly suggest you check it out. We both agreed that it was by far, the best TR experience we've had so far.
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post #2995 of 3450 Old 08-02-2019, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick update... It's been a couple of months since we got the HoverCouch up & running. The inner-tube suspension(in lieu of foam isolators) has been problem free. It may be that the drivers & BK's are getting broken in, but for whatever reason, it's working better than ever. Thus far, there's been no downside to this unconventional approach and it was dirt cheap. One unexpected perk is that the tubes serve to anchor the couch sections in place such that they no longer try to separate. If anyone's feeling adventurous, I'd be very interested to know if this suspension provides additional TR over the more conventional approach. Since it would only require placing a bike tube between each driver & the floor, it would be quick, cheap & easy to try. Who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised...

In the serendipity dept, we watched "Missing Link" last night. We had very low expectations for this flick, but the flick won us over with some clever writing. The HoverCouch goodness was off the charts. We were actually laughing out loud midway through - it was so much fun. If you haven't already seen(felt) this flick, I strongly suggest you check it out. We both agreed that it was by far, the best TR experience we've had so far.
Longeze.....welcome back! Thanks for the update on your HoverCouch. Great to hear it's durability is holding up after a few months. I think the inner tube approach is a best of both worlds design helping to not only make the floating experience even more possible with such a low durometer, but also minimizing the volume under the platform which makes it even more "floaty" when the drivers are reaching max excursion.

My guess is your BOSS experience probably won't be as good with the rubber isolators when compared to your hover isolator solution for these reasons. If your setup would allow and you're interested in experimenting, I would think adding some spacers underneath your platform to lift it off of the inner tubes and then add the rubber isolators on top of those spacers would simulate a legacy BOSS platform to see if there's a noticeable difference.

I'm glad you mentioned the Missing Link.....I'm excited about watching that one now!
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post #2996 of 3450 Old 08-02-2019, 05:06 PM
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Another stupid question about using my Carver stereo amp (TFM-25) to power the BOSS... Is there any harm in using a "Y" splitter from the miniDSP output to the pair of inputs to the Carver? That way I could use each channel to drive one of the JBL subs. It would also make my wiring easier as well as present a more stable load since it's normally rated for 8 ohm operation (225 w/channel into 8 ohms, 350 watts/channel into 4 ohms). I'm sure 4 ohms at low power wouldn't be a problem, but wouldn't want to run it at 2 ohms.
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post #2997 of 3450 Old 08-02-2019, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Another stupid question about using my Carver stereo amp (TFM-25) to power the BOSS... Is there any harm in using a "Y" splitter from the miniDSP output to the pair of inputs to the Carver? That way I could use each channel to drive one of the JBL subs. It would also make my wiring easier as well as present a more stable load since it's normally rated for 8 ohm operation (225 w/channel into 8 ohms, 350 watts/channel into 4 ohms). I'm sure 4 ohms at low power wouldn't be a problem, but wouldn't want to run it at 2 ohms.
Spidacat....good question. Your proposed method of splitting the 1 signal from the mini out to the each of the inputs on the Carver stereo amp is best. That will keep the signal chain simple and ensure the exact same signal is going to each driver. If the Carver amp has a balance adjustment, make sure it's set equally for left and right channels I'm running my stereo amp for the BOSS platforms in our theater at 6 ohms without any problems...the Carver should behave OK with 4 ohms when all you need is about 160W RMS per channel (80W x 2 JBL per channel if I understand your setup correctly). You'll still have some headroom to spare for any dynamic peaks beyond 160W RMS per channel when the movie or music calls for the extra power.
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I Love the BOSS. Just finished Avengers End Game, and the Boos is a game changer for me. Love having 2 12"s in my small couch. Thanks @trhought and all for the inspiration and guidance.
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post #2999 of 3450 Old 08-03-2019, 08:57 AM
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..If your setup would allow and you're interested in experimenting... ..you mentioned the Missing Link.....I'm excited about watching that one now!
I was hoping that maybe someone with a single seat setup(for eg.) might be curious enough to pop for the $8.00 to buy a bicycle innertube to do a comparison.. in the name of "science" don't you know

Since as you might imagine, my performance expectations for the innertube/sealed drivers vs silicone isolators are the same as your own, buying & mounting all the isolators required to support our "elephant" Hovercouch, would defeat the economy that partially motivated the use of the innertubes to begin with, while most likely providing little in the way of ROI.

Missing Link: Don't expect "The Incredibles" or anything, but it's a passably entertaining movie with exceptional TR. Please post up with your thoughts after you check it out. I'd be interested to get your take on it.
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post #3000 of 3450 Old 08-03-2019, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I Love the BOSS. Just finished Avengers End Game, and the Boos is a game changer for me. Love having 2 12"s in my small couch. Thanks @trhought and all for the inspiration and guidance.
lizrussspike.....yes, Avengers End Game was definitely worth the wait....both the 10 year build-up and I waited until it was available at home. Was going to check it out during its theatrical run but the timing never worked out. So glad I waited because it was so engrossing and moving which is unusual for the genre. We're going to watch it again this weekend. One of my daughters friends had seen it 3 times in the theater. He said it was a different movie watching it in our theater, much better. I glanced at him several times when the TR was really hitting and his eyes were wide open and glued to the screen. A couple times I heard him say "ooooh". I know how he felt because I was thinking the same thing.

So glad to hear you're enjoying your BOSS!
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