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post #3991 of 4424 Old 11-11-2019, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Awesome find as this is the gray area for me and am sure for few others also. I am glad that I had some influence/motivation on you . Did you by chance play with negative gain HS6/12 and have graphs to compare? Will give it a try. Thank you

On a side note, I didn’t realize that your boss has that much spls
There was absolutely no comparison between negative HP and positive LP. Not even worth the bandwidth to post. Just use LP.
The BOSS (chair) adds absolutely NO spl. Checked it again tonight to make sure (since, as Tim advises, polarity can make a big difference). That's just the magic square array, a foot behind the seats.
But don't get too excited. REW, since I updated it, wants me to calibrate the spl meter again. One thing I haven't bothered with yet.
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post #3992 of 4424 Old 11-11-2019, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
deano86....Thanks for the link to the PE BK isolators. at 3/4", those will work well for full size risers if they are very soft. Does your chair wiggle like jello with these under the legs. If so, that's a good alternative isolator for full size BOSS risers and furniture BOSS setups.
Oh yes.... I believe there is good wiggle with these small Buttkicker isolators. When I grab the bottom frame of the chair or loveseat, I can easily wiggle them around.. I do have a set of the Hudson HiFi 2.5" isos for comparison and with my "unscientific" finger squeeze test, they seem to be very comparable... if not even softer than the Hudsons.. possibly due to the kicker isos being hollow in the middle bottom half of them to provide access for the mounting screw.
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post #3993 of 4424 Old 11-11-2019, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
^^Yes, those charts are for port tune, but the point is they are for sound, not vibrations.

Like i said, on paper it may not look as good, but it turns out theory and practice isn’t always the same thing.

And come on Tim, do you really thing i would have swapped out a 8xJBL BOSS if the replacement wasn’t better?
Sound IS vibrations.....SPL equals cone displaced volume (excursion at a certain frequency) times density of the air. The two are directly related to each other....for any given atmospheric pressure that is Maybe it's the altitude in Norway

I'm not doubting you feel an improvement with the slaps....just pointing out that things get wonky around port tune with phase reversal and the challenges that will create with TR. The phase reversal is definitely happening around port tune with your slaps box. As is the low excursion of the JBL's around port tune. My guess is it's not noticeable because the Crowsons and BK's are adding to the mix around the port tune frequency (15-20Hz) and covering it up.

We can probably take this topic over to the TR thread where it will benefit others wanting to learn more about the behavior of passive radiators and their effect on TR
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post #3994 of 4424 Old 11-11-2019, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by deano86 View Post
Oh yes.... I believe there is good wiggle with these small Buttkicker isolators. When I grab the bottom frame of the chair or loveseat, I can easily wiggle them around.. I do have a set of the Hudson HiFi 2.5" isos for comparison and with my "unscientific" finger squeeze test, they seem to be very comparable... if not even softer than the Hudsons.. possibly due to the kicker isos being hollow in the middle bottom half of them to provide access for the mounting screw.
Great find deano86! Thanks for the details. I'm going to add those isolators to Post 29 for use with the full size BOSS risers and the furniture risers where the clearance between the floor and the bottom of the BOSS riser isn't as critical.

Thanks for sharing.
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post #3995 of 4424 Old 11-11-2019, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Just updated Post 29 with a link to the alternate isolators deano86 shared......
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post #3996 of 4424 Old 11-11-2019, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post

On a side note, where has @Sekosche been? I haven’t seen his post on avs for a month or two now.

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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
tvuong....great question about Sekosche. I haven't heard from him in a while either. Hopefully all is OK with him.


Thanks, all is very well. I’ve been really busy building a house, chasing kiddos, and making some tough decisions on what to do with a smaller but finally dedicated media room. I can’t complain, but I’ll likely be downsizing or selling some of my gear going from a 5,500ft^3 multipurpose room to a 1,500ft^3 space. I bought some really nice theater seats today, so that’s a start.

You know what all this really means? BOSS version 3.0 coming sometime next year. The house won’t be done until spring, but the TR potential on a suspended floor with beefier drivers has me rethinking a few things, and I may even move to an all sealed subwoofer setup...decisions decisions!

Love all the new BOSS peoples.
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post #3997 of 4424 Old 11-11-2019, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Thanks, all is very well. I’ve been really busy building a house, chasing kiddos, and making some tough decisions on what to do with a smaller but finally dedicated media room. I can’t complain, but I’ll likely be downsizing or selling some of my gear going from a 5,500ft^3 multipurpose room to a 1,500ft^3 space. I bought some really nice theater seats today, so that’s a start.

You know what all this really means? BOSS version 3.0 coming sometime next year. The house won’t be done until spring, but the TR potential on a suspended floor with beefier drivers has me rethinking a few things, and I may even move to an all sealed subwoofer setup...decisions decisions!

Love all the new BOSS peoples.
Sekosche.....welcome back! Great to hear from you.

Congrats on the new house and a new dedicated media room.....Sweet!

Sounds like you have a few months to do some planning for the space....unless, of course, the builder is asking where you want the speaker wires and A/V home runs before dry wall goes up. Always tough decisions that come up out of the blue when building a house.

Exciting times!
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post #3998 of 4424 Old 11-11-2019, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Sound IS vibrations.....SPL equals cone displaced volume (excursion at a certain frequency) times density of the air. The two are directly related to each other....for any given atmospheric pressure that is Maybe it's the altitude in Norway

I'm not doubting you feel an improvement with the slaps....just pointing out that things get wonky around port tune with phase reversal and the challenges that will create with TR. The phase reversal is definitely happening around port tune with your slaps box. As is the low excursion of the JBL's around port tune. My guess is it's not noticeable because the Crowsons and BK's are adding to the mix around the port tune frequency (15-20Hz) and covering it up.

We can probably take this topic over to the TR thread where it will benefit others wanting to learn more about the behavior of passive radiators and their effect on TR
Hey, i get it, i was skeptical too before i started. As was Aron and Ryan back when this idea was born. But i already had the SLAPS and you know me, I like to tinker, so i tried it.

I think the biggest surprise in my whole TR journey was how incredible good they worked, in all aspects.

Make of it what you want, my measurement in the Viberry thread should give some indication, but whatever.....
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post #3999 of 4424 Old 11-11-2019, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by FLViking2011 View Post
I’️m ready to start the boss build this coming weekend. I’️ll be putting three jbls on a 10ft platform on the long side of my L shape couch and then two jbls on a smaller platform on the shorter side side. I’️m thinking this will be great because it’️s very difficult to pressurize my room. Attached are some pictures of my setup, room and couch. What would be the best way to wire the 5 jbls? I’️m going to be using the bridge mode on a behringer nx3000d.
FLViking.....great setup! Yes, the BOSS will deliver the smiles in that large room and large sectional on concrete.

The entire room will feel like it's moving!

For your design, yes, wiring all 5 drivers in series will provide a load of 20 ohms. At 20 ohms impedance, the 4000 will provide about 424 watts RMS in bridged mode. That's perfect for a BOSS setup providing about 85 watts for each driver. The amplifier will run at low current and very cool with this configuration.

If you'd like to split up the drivers into a 2 plus 3 combination and run the 4000 in stereo, that will work also. It's really a matter of preference and how many wires you want running to your BOSS. 2 plus 3 will require 2 speaker cable runs, while all 5 in series will require only 1 run of speaker cable.

For your platform design, if that corner piece is a piece all by itself, I'd combine it with the shorter leg of the L. Maybe that's what you were already planning. If it's connected to either the longer leg or the shorter leg, just make sure the BOSS platform is under that entire piece including the corner piece. Said another way, don't try to place that corner piece on a platform with the shorter leg if it's connected to the longer leg.

It would be helpful if I knew the location of the legs of your furniture pieces and where each sectional piece is separated from the others. That will help finalize your platform design and number/location of the isolators to optimize your BOSS experience. I think you said already your BOSS drivers will be close to the center of your seating position which will be great since your platform will be very rigid and heavy with 3 layers.

It would also be helpful if I knew the use case for your corner furniture piece. If it's not used very often, then it would be best to place the drivers adjacent to that corner piece instead of below that corner piece. Said another way, if during over-flow situations, people sit in the shorter section instead of the corner section, then I'd place those 2 drivers under that shorter leg of the L instead of placing one in that corner. This is done to maximize the TR by getting the body masses over the drivers as much as possible.

One other idea...if you can add one more driver to your design, that would place 3 under the long leg, 1 under the corner piece and 2 under the shorter L. With a sixth driver, you could wire them in series/parallel for 6 ohms into bridged mode so you would still only need one speaker wire run without any need for a larger amplifier. Maybe you don't have the room for 6 drivers but wanted to mention that.

Looking forward to learning more about your design.

Hope this helps.
All of the seats including the corner one are separate. They are all hooked together at the bottom front of the seat by the silver piece in the attached picture. The seat frames are not attached and only the silver piece joins them. I was planning on placing one 10 ft board for the three seats in the big part of the L and a separated 8ft board for the corner and small part of the L. Would you recommend that I detach the silver locking piece of the corner section from the three seats in the big part of the L since they’ll be on two different platforms? That way only the seats on the individual platforms will be joined. Or should I leave the corner seat connected to the big L and bridge the two platforms somehow? If so, I’m hoping you can help with the how. Lol. Thanks again for the advice!
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post #4000 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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All of the seats including the corner one are separate. They are all hooked together at the bottom front of the seat by the silver piece in the attached picture. The seat frames are not attached and only the silver piece joins them. I was planning on placing one 10 ft board for the three seats in the big part of the L and a separated 8ft board for the corner and small part of the L. Would you recommend that I detach the silver locking piece of the corner section from the three seats in the big part of the L since they’ll be on two different platforms? That way only the seats on the individual platforms will be joined. Or should I leave the corner seat connected to the big L and bridge the two platforms somehow? If so, I’m hoping you can help with the how. Lol. Thanks again for the advice!
FLViking....Thanks for the details. Your plan sounds great. 2 separate platforms, 1 for the big part of the L by itself and another for the small part of the L and the corner piece connected to it.

For the connections, yes, disconnect the connector between the corner piece and the large part of the L. But, keep the corner piece connected to the small part of the L.

If that corner piece doesn't get used very much, I'd recommend placing the 2 drivers under the L leg. If the corner piece does get used a lot, I'd recommend 1 of the 2 drivers for the platform to be located under it and the other in the middle of the L. I touched on this a bit earlier also, if you can fit 3 drivers on the 8 ft board with the smaller L and corner piece, you would still have enough amp power for all 6 of those drivers. Just wanted to share that as you're contemplating design ideas.

Hope this helps.
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post #4001 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 07:03 AM
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Thank you. When I cut the boards to fit the bottom of the couches how much should the board go beyond the couch feet? I know the isolators would go in the same spot as the current feet so I was thinking 2-4” of overhang?
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post #4002 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Thanks, all is very well. I’ve been really busy building a house, chasing kiddos, and making some tough decisions on what to do with a smaller but finally dedicated media room. I can’t complain, but I’ll likely be downsizing or selling some of my gear going from a 5,500ft^3 multipurpose room to a 1,500ft^3 space.
Congrats on the house, especially with a dedicated media room. A pair of some sealed 18" should do just fine in that room, with BOSS of course.
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post #4003 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 09:55 AM
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geaux tigers!!!


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Originally Posted by FLViking2011 View Post
Thank you. When I cut the boards to fit the bottom of the couches how much should the board go beyond the couch feet? I know the isolators would go in the same spot as the current feet so I was thinking 2-4” of overhang?
It's really to taste. I'd keep it to the shorter side though. 4" might be a tripping hazard. I have maybe an inch on mine. On my couch being a pit, the entry corner piece doesn't have a sizes that it's open. So for that 3' section it has about a 4.5" over hang. I've seen people half hit it a ton getting off the couch because they're not expecting it. I've been thinking of either adding an arm there or maybe something like a glow in the dark strip so that it's seen.
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post #4004 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 10:13 AM
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@OJ Bartley If you have thick carpet and thick padding underneath that carpet, you can try to sit your full size BOSS platform directly on that carpet. That will provide some isolation from the subfloor below and still allow abundant TR to be delivered to your butt. Just be mindful of the carpet and padding that will crush over time and rob TR. If you have hardwood/tile or low pile carpet underneath, I'd recommend the 1" hemispheres as originally mentioned. These will still allow the back wave to be isolated from the front wave and produce SPL. I believe carp is using the larger isolators under his BOSS platform and also likes the SPL he's getting from his back row. I have low pile commercial carpeting glued directly to the concrete floor and I'm using the larger isolators which smash down to about .5" and love the SPL from my back row.

Hope this helps.
Thanks for this, I will have solid laminate floor, and was thinking about how to build the riser... sealed riser with a BOSS "panel" on top, or make the BOSS built right into the riser and leave it either sealed or open at the bottom with isolation devices under the framing. I was originally looking at the U-boat decouplers from Auralex, but these seem like they would be much harder than the hemisphere isos I've seen used in here.
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post #4005 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 10:20 AM
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Make of it what you want, my measurement in the Viberry thread should give some indication
It occurs to me that my REW measurements have the same dip at 9Hz that your Viberry measurements have had.
Maybe it's inherent in the JBL speakers???
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post #4006 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 10:48 AM
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Haha, that's pretty good, but I think the Saints will be fine. Although I grew up in NOLA, I've lived in Dallas since 1980 and have become a Cowboys fan more than a Saints fan. Unfortunately, I don't think the Cowboys will be fine - should be Jason Garrett's last year as head coach (finger's crossed).

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post #4007 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 11:17 AM
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Can someone post a link to where the jbl gx1200 is 29$? My google is failing. Thanks in advance.


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post #4008 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you. When I cut the boards to fit the bottom of the couches how much should the board go beyond the couch feet? I know the isolators would go in the same spot as the current feet so I was thinking 2-4” of overhang?
FLViking....you're thinking is correct. Keeping the isolators (and couch feet) about 2" from the edge of the BOSS platform is a good target. If that means you'll have an inch sticking out beyond the front of the couch, go ahead and cut it flush so you only have 1" overhang. That will work great also.
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post #4009 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh so true.....fortunately, that's a trade that worked out OK. A Saints loss didn't hurt that bad but the LSU win was huge!

Geaux Tigers and Saints!
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post #4010 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 11:48 AM
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Can someone post a link to where the jbl gx1200 is 29$? My google is failing. Thanks in advance.
Best Buy on Black Friday.
Otherwise, $45 each for two
https://www.amazon.com/JBL-CS1214-20...s%2C168&sr=8-5
or $48
https://www.amazon.com/CS1214-1000-w...s%2C168&sr=8-7
or as listed elsewhere, above.
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post #4011 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Haha, that's pretty good, but I think the Saints will be fine. Although I grew up in NOLA, I've lived in Dallas since 1980 and have become a Cowboys fan more than a Saints fan. Unfortunately, I don't think the Cowboys will be fine - should be Jason Garrett's last year as head coach (finger's crossed).
My son, who you met, is a huge Cowboys fan. Partly because Dak's HS alma mater is in the same football district as ours and he grew up watching Dak play HS ball against our local team. Also, because my wife is an Ohio State alum, he would always watch the Buckeye games and grew fond of Elliot back around the same time. He's an avid football fan now especially since he's playing HS football and has a better appreciation for the positions.

I think you're right about Garrett....you could almost see it written all over Jerry's face at the end of the game on Sunday.
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post #4012 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by OJ Bartley View Post
Thanks for this, I will have solid laminate floor, and was thinking about how to build the riser... sealed riser with a BOSS "panel" on top, or make the BOSS built right into the riser and leave it either sealed or open at the bottom with isolation devices under the framing. I was originally looking at the U-boat decouplers from Auralex, but these seem like they would be much harder than the hemisphere isos I've seen used in here.
OJ....Thanks. If it were me, I'd try the riser as an open baffle on the bottom at first and keep the gap between the laminate floor and the edges of the riser around .25 to .5 inches. This will not only produce SPL but also allow extension of the JBL's into the singles. I think you'll like the SPL you'll get from this configuration in addition to the TR from the BOSS riser. If you desire more SPL, then go to plan B which is seal the bottom and build a mini-riser BOSS on top of the full size riser.

For the first 2 months of operation, my back row BOSS platform was sitting on the floor. After refining the BOSS design, I later raised it off the floor, tilting it up on one side only with the smaller isolators with about a .5" gap. The other side of the riser has 2 columns on top so it remains against the floor on that side of the riser. I didn't notice a drop in the SPL from sealed to the .5" gap but also never measured the before to see. But, I'm really enjoying the additional SPL I get from the back row BOSS today and raising it on one side with the isolators has allowed it to produce ample wobble into the singles.

Just thinking out loud here....another option would be to raise one side of the riser like I did, then raise the entire platform to see if there's any measureable SPL difference or audible differences between the 2 configurations. Then measure again with it resting entirely on the floor without any isolators to see the differences in SPL and subjective listening tests to see what you like best.

Just some thoughts I wanted to share.

Hope this helps.

Edit: Just realized I missed your questions about the U shaped isolators. Yes, those are too rigid. The goal is to have the platform move like jello when you push on it.

Last edited by trhought; 11-12-2019 at 12:28 PM.
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post #4013 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 12:51 PM
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What Nalleh has and I'm almost done building are VNF sealed boxes with the SLAPs down firing in them. The boxes are then attached to the riser so that the moving mass of the SLAPs then provides additional TR. As Nalleh said the PR acts like a port on the box. Normally you're supposed to do them (at least SLAPs) on opposite sides since they can cause the box to walk around due to the movement. We're exploiting that for additional TR by putting them unbalanced on the riser.
Hi DD,

Can you tell me which drivers and SLAPS radiators you're using, and the internal volume of your enclosure? This looks very tempting. Big thanks to @Nalleh , Tim, and you for all the trailblazing!!

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post #4014 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 01:24 PM
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post #4015 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 01:41 PM
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Hi DD,

Can you tell me which drivers and SLAPS radiators you're using, and the internal volume of your enclosure? This looks very tempting. Big thanks to @Nalleh , Tim, and you for all the trailblazing!!

Thanks,
Darrell
I'm using the 12" SLAPs the 15" group buy sub from DIY Soud Group. I'm at work so I don't have the exact dimensions but it's roughly 2 cf per driver. I have a sketchup of it at home.

Originally I was going to go with 8 of the JBLs but I was constrained to one row by other factors and it was going to be a bit wider than my couch. That's when I saw that group buy and grabbed the 4 of them. When we did the math on them for use with the SLAPs one was about equal to 2 JBLs. So I gave them a shot.

I've been tempted looking at SI's new SQL-15 since they're almost a drop in replacement. They look like a monster for the $260 intro price but I think it might take 2 SLAPs for each of them doing the math off the top of my head. So it would take a redesign and a new box build.
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post #4016 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 01:47 PM
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Great setup DesertDog....curious what the port tune frequency is for those slaps in that volume. Just curious if the Slaps TR would start to reverse direction somewhere in the single digits and start working against your BOSS drivers or will they have an HPF to prevent that reversal below port tune?
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It looks like it'll be around 17-18 hz but I can adjust it as needed. My plan was to play with the weight for the tuning once they're up in running to see how they feel.
I'm wondering if the SLAPS radiators are normally intended for vertical mounting (since they're advertised for car audio) which would avoid cone sag. If you're talking about adding more and more weight to get lower tunes, wouldn't that exacerbate the problem with sag?

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post #4017 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 02:25 PM
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I'm wondering if the SLAPS radiators are normally intended for vertical mounting (since they're advertised for car audio) which would avoid cone sag. If you're talking about adding more and more weight to get lower tunes, wouldn't that exacerbate the problem with sag?
They actually recommend using 2 of them in opposition to one another to keep the box from moving around.

Adding more mass would cause a little more sag with them them. They're pretty stiff at idle now so I'm not sure how much difference it'll make. Based on what Nalleh has told me they probably don't need more weight though and will be good as is. We'll see when I finally get to fire them up. Hopefully this weekend. Staining and finishing is taking for ever with dry times and I'm limited to when I can sand due to having to do it outside. I can't run too late with the neighbors.
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post #4018 of 4424 Old 11-12-2019, 03:46 PM
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It occurs to me that my REW measurements have the same dip at 9Hz that your Viberry measurements have had.
Maybe it's inherent in the JBL speakers???
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No, not at all

Quote:
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I'm wondering if the SLAPS radiators are normally intended for vertical mounting (since they're advertised for car audio) which would avoid cone sag. If you're talking about adding more and more weight to get lower tunes, wouldn't that exacerbate the problem with sag?
Like i have said earlier, the manual says no mass can be added if mounted downfiring, but i use mine with the included mass added(255grams), and have no issues. They are so stiff, there is NO sag.

Besides, with the massive 4" stroke, even at full tilt Winisd places them at ~60 mm, so it is nowhere near maxed out yet.
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post #4019 of 4424 Old 11-13-2019, 10:50 AM
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Hey guys! I am moving soon and planning out my theater space a little bit. I am planning on doing a mini-riser and possibly a full one if I do a second row. So I have a few questons:



1. Is the Behringer NX3000D about the best option to power 3 of the jbl's (in a mini-riser) with the option to also power a separate sub or 3 more jbl's in the future (mini or full riser)?


2. Is it still a good option if I'm going to add a mini-dsp for BEQ, or is there a cheaper option without a dsp feature so as not to have redundant feature?

3. Is under $300 new a good deal?

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Last edited by ryudoadema; 11-13-2019 at 11:31 AM.
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post #4020 of 4424 Old 11-13-2019, 03:17 PM
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Hey guys! I am moving soon and planning out my theater space a little bit. I am planning on doing a mini-riser and possibly a full one if I do a second row. So I have a few questons:



1. Is the Behringer NX3000D about the best option to power 3 of the jbl's (in a mini-riser) with the option to also power a separate sub or 3 more jbl's in the future (mini or full riser)?


2. Is it still a good option if I'm going to add a mini-dsp for BEQ, or is there a cheaper option without a dsp feature so as not to have redundant feature?

3. Is under $300 new a good deal?
I will be using the same amp to drive 8 JBL's based on input from this thread. I purchased my amp from B&H photo for 299.99 plus tax and that was the best price I could find. I got my speakers from Amazon 2 for $78.90 again the best I could find. Having said that BF is coming so you may find better deals then.

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