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post #6241 of 6279 Old 05-23-2020, 07:44 AM
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You guys mentioned 2014 Godzilla a while back, I finally got around to watching it on blu ray last night. The contest is over, this is the ultimate, hands down best bass movie I have ever seen in my entire movie watching life. As crazy as I ever thought any other bass was in other movies, this trounces it easily. Scene after scene of crushing, monstrous bass that contorted my room - pressure waves that made me feel uneasy - and of course the hovertube BOSS putting me right in the middle of the action feeling every piece of chaos through my entire body.

Seriously, this is the best by far.

If anyone thinks they have a movie that can top this, please let me know - I've watched a LOT of movies.

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post #6242 of 6279 Old 05-23-2020, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kane7 View Post
I remember I have 4 of these back in Norway.
Dynabel DB-12
Vas 104.1
Qts 0.6
Fs 28.8
Sens 90
RMS 200
Xmax 12
Mmd 113.6


Maybe they could work better than the GRS?

Could not find the Mms but I guess with that Mmd the Mms would be about 116gr, maybe
The Dynabel DB-12 models at 70 watts in open baffle to reach Xmax. For HoverBOSS, the rated power of 200 watts places it a bit behind the baseline JBL at 250 watts.

For open baffle, with the 116g assumed Mms, that's .65x the baseline JBL (116g vs. the 179g). The Xmax is virtually the same (12.0mm vs. 12.1mm). So, it has a combined shaker potential of .65x vs. the baseline JBL.

Hope this helps.
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post #6243 of 6279 Old 05-23-2020, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
You guys mentioned 2014 Godzilla a while back, I finally got around to watching it on blu ray last night. The contest is over, this is the ultimate, hands down best bass movie I have ever seen in my entire movie watching life. As crazy as I ever thought any other bass was in other movies, this trounces it easily. Scene after scene of crushing, monstrous bass that contorted my room - pressure waves that made me feel uneasy - and of course the hovertube BOSS putting me right in the middle of the action feeling every piece of chaos through my entire body.

Seriously, this is the best by far.
That one is a bass demo movie for sure. Awesome you got to check it out. Not sure if you've seen any other movies in series yet....Godzilla 2014 is the first. The sequel....Godzilla - King of Monsters is just as fun. And, if you still want more of the giant Monster Universe with jarring TR throughout, Kong-Skull Island is another demo worthy movie which takes place during the same period and references Godzilla a couple times during the movie. The two monsters will meet head-to-head later this year to continue the series in Godzilla vs. Kong Can't wait to watch this one at home!

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post #6244 of 6279 Old 05-23-2020, 09:46 AM
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Yes, I’ve seen Skull Island and King of the Monsters, and they both had great bass, but Godzilla 2014 is just completely nutso in comparison.
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post #6245 of 6279 Old 05-23-2020, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I’ve seen Skull Island and King of the Monsters, and they both had great bass, but Godzilla 2014 is just completely nutso in comparison.
Without BEQ I would definitely agree, 2014 is the best of the 3. With BEQ, it's hard to tell a difference on my system. They all bring it pretty hard. From the monster stomps and pounds to the more intricate ULF blending such as Kong, when they're in the chopper towards the beginning approaching the island. The chopper thumping, floating sensation along with the explosions/collisions happening all around them at the same time combine for a ULF TR treat. The MonsterVerse is one of my favorite BEQ collections.
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post #6246 of 6279 Old 05-23-2020, 02:59 PM
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I have ordered up (4) JBL GX1200's. Looking at images of them online, and reading the specs I can't find any information on what size quick disconnects I need to use, and it looks like it uses two different sizes. Also is there a better way to connect the speaker wire other than soldering?
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post #6247 of 6279 Old 05-23-2020, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ArchBishopFocwod View Post
I have ordered up (4) JBL GX1200's. Looking at images of them online, and reading the specs I can't find any information on what size quick disconnects I need to use, and it looks like it uses two different sizes. Also is there a better way to connect the speaker wire other than soldering?

You could get some spade connectors
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post #6248 of 6279 Old 05-23-2020, 04:39 PM
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3mm/1/8" & 6mm/1/4" spade connectors will do the job as Richard has mentioned.

They're the sizes I use on my JBL S2-1224's, looking at that pic it'll be the same sizes across the JBL board.
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post #6249 of 6279 Old 05-24-2020, 02:20 AM
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^^^Also, Forgot to mention, Depending on how you plan to wire your drivers, You might need some piggyback spade connectors too.
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post #6250 of 6279 Old 05-24-2020, 06:27 AM
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I should be good, I plan on wiring it in Series/Parallel
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post #6251 of 6279 Old 05-24-2020, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
The Dynabel DB-12 models at 70 watts in open baffle to reach Xmax. For HoverBOSS, the rated power of 200 watts places it a bit behind the baseline JBL at 250 watts.

For open baffle, with the 116g assumed Mms, that's .65x the baseline JBL (116g vs. the 179g). The Xmax is virtually the same (12.0mm vs. 12.1mm). So, it has a combined shaker potential of .65x vs. the baseline JBL.

Hope this helps.
It does. They have about the same potential as the GRS so I guess I can use them together. If nothing else they can be used in the seat backs, with the GRS in the platform.
With 8 I guess I'll be making better use of the one chanel I want to use on my inuke3k than with 4
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post #6252 of 6279 Old 05-24-2020, 08:16 AM
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Actually, 9 would be better (see magic square).
Michael
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post #6253 of 6279 Old 05-24-2020, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Time Alignment Sound Clip

Wanted to share a recent update to Post 29 compliments of AVS members @SOWK and @giomania . Number 11 in that post contains a handy sound clip (also linked below) that can be used to easily verify if your subs/bed channels are time aligned with your tactile devices. I tried this yesterday and it simply works.

The BOSS user guide created by giomania here has also been updated to include this information on Page 30.

For easy reference below is number 11 from Post 29.

Enjoy and stay safe out there....

"11. A handy time alignment impulse sound clip has been created by member SOWK . A link to that clip is here. This file was custom-made after SOWK visited giomania’s house for a GTG in January, 2020 and experienced a BOSS platform for the first time. It allows time alignment to be verified between subwoofers/bed level speakers and tactile devices. The file contains a set of 20 impulses spaced 3 seconds apart. Each impulse has content from 1-80Hz with a big peak at 30Hz and full band content below 10Hz with a peak at 6Hz. The big peak at 30Hz is intended to energize the subwoofer(s) while the full band content below 10Hz is there to energize the tactile devices. To perform the time alignment, just play the file and adjust the delay on your BOSS platform until the sound you can hear (from the subs) and feel from the BOSS platform arrive at the same time. DO NOT adjust the delay in your subwoofers, as this should already be set to align with other subwoofers and/or speakers in your room. The delay can be adjusted in the AVP/AVR if you have multiple sub outputs with independent delay. Alternatively, if you are using an DSP device like a miniDSP 2x4 HD, you can adjust the delay in the appropriate sub channel output."
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post #6254 of 6279 Old 05-24-2020, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Actually, 9 would be better (see magic square).
Michael
And 9 it is

Actually, that made a lot of stuff much easier. The manual recliner has room under for the speaker, the motorised does not but I guess the one in that seat will benefit of the other 3. I'm thinking 2 layers 15mm OSB board in 62x250cm (brown in drawing) . The green in the drawing is the subframe of the sofa. As shown there are 3 speakers in the hoverboss but 4x16" tubes, how about isolators? Was it better with few or many? I'm wondering about the 3 in the middle...

Anyway, I can fit a double bossback at the middle seats and that makes for 9
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post #6255 of 6279 Old 05-25-2020, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ArchBishopFocwod View Post
I should be good, I plan on wiring it in Series/Parallel
I’ve wired my drivers the same way, I ended up using a couple (one of each size) of the piggy back spade connectors for ease of connection/disconnection.
I just found it easier, as the spade connectors are a little small for two cables, You could solder them of course, If your so inclined
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post #6256 of 6279 Old 05-25-2020, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Wanted to share a recent update to Post 29 compliments of AVS members @SOWK and @giomania . Number 11 in that post contains a handy sound clip (also linked below) that can be used to easily verify if your subs/bed channels are time aligned with your tactile devices. I tried this yesterday and it simply works.

The BOSS user guide created by giomania here has also been updated to include this information on Page 30.

For easy reference below is number 11 from Post 29.

Enjoy and stay safe out there....

"11. A handy time alignment impulse sound clip has been created by member SOWK . A link to that clip is here. This file was custom-made after SOWK visited giomania’s house for a GTG in January, 2020 and experienced a BOSS platform for the first time. It allows time alignment to be verified between subwoofers/bed level speakers and tactile devices. The file contains a set of 20 impulses spaced 3 seconds apart. Each impulse has content from 1-80Hz with a big peak at 30Hz and full band content below 10Hz with a peak at 6Hz. The big peak at 30Hz is intended to energize the subwoofer(s) while the full band content below 10Hz is there to energize the tactile devices. To perform the time alignment, just play the file and adjust the delay on your BOSS platform until the sound you can hear (from the subs) and feel from the BOSS platform arrive at the same time. DO NOT adjust the delay in your subwoofers, as this should already be set to align with other subwoofers and/or speakers in your room. The delay can be adjusted in the AVP/AVR if you have multiple sub outputs with independent delay. Alternatively, if you are using an DSP device like a miniDSP 2x4 HD, you can adjust the delay in the appropriate sub channel output."
Has anyone run this by @3ll3d00d for approval? Whenever I've suggested using direct impulse stimulus for sub/TR device testing in the past, he's quickly shot it down usually with a condescending comment along the lines of 'why would you do that'.
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post #6257 of 6279 Old 05-25-2020, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone run this by @3ll3d00d for approval? Whenever I've suggested using direct impulse stimulus for sub/TR device testing in the past, he's quickly shot it down usually with a condescending comment along the lines of 'why would you do that'.
I haven't but would be interested in hearing his take on it for sure.
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post #6258 of 6279 Old Yesterday, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Wanted to share a recent update to Post 29 compliments of AVS members @SOWK and @giomania . Number 11 in that post contains a handy sound clip (also linked below) that can be used to easily verify if your subs/bed channels are time aligned with your tactile devices. I tried this yesterday and it simply works.
Thank you for this. I did not see this piece of advice before and I'm sure that it will be a great tool.
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post #6259 of 6279 Old Yesterday, 04:01 PM
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I haven't but would be interested in hearing his take on it for sure.
and there was me thinking I have to sign off all test signals, what is the world coming to?!

since you asked nicely then I'll offer a couple of observations...

The signal is described as "Each impulse has content from 1-80Hz with a big peak at 30Hz and full band content below 10Hz with a peak at 6Hz". The terminology is unclear (use of "impulse" and "full band" to describe band limited content when I'd consider both of those to refer to genuinely full bandwidth signals) but if I were constructing such a signal then I'd guess it would be something like:

* band limited white noise at some background level
* 30Hz sine wave
* 6Hz sine wave

However the signal itself appears to be 100ms long. A single cycle at 6Hz is ~167ms so not sure how you can have <10Hz content in there. FFT analysis looks like a big 30Hz peak with some side lobes.

How was the signal created?

There is a technique one can use for low frequency alignment which lets you look at the evolution of that alignment over time and hence lets you examine alignment at the start of the wave vs alignment in the steady state condition. If you do this, you'll find that the correct delay differs according to whether you choose to align the leading edge or the steady state. Invariably one aligns to the steady state here though whether I could honestly tell the difference, I have no idea I also have no idea whether any human can subjectively perceive a difference at this level of resolution when comparing audible content to tactile content but, if you can, it raises the Q of whether you should use a longer signal for that subjective alignment process.

Do you find you get consistent results if you blind test yourself at dialling it in? what about blind testing to pick the difference? might be hard to do the switching quickly enough using offboard dsp but would be interesting to see the results if it is possible. I can't say I'd be bothered enough to test that myself mind you
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post #6260 of 6279 Old Yesterday, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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and there was me thinking I have to sign off all test signals, what is the world coming to?!

since you asked nicely then I'll offer a couple of observations...

The signal is described as "Each impulse has content from 1-80Hz with a big peak at 30Hz and full band content below 10Hz with a peak at 6Hz". The terminology is unclear (use of "impulse" and "full band" to describe band limited content when I'd consider both of those to refer to genuinely full bandwidth signals) but if I were constructing such a signal then I'd guess it would be something like:

* band limited white noise at some background level
* 30Hz sine wave
* 6Hz sine wave

However the signal itself appears to be 100ms long. A single cycle at 6Hz is ~167ms so not sure how you can have <10Hz content in there. FFT analysis looks like a big 30Hz peak with some side lobes.

How was the signal created?

There is a technique one can use for low frequency alignment which lets you look at the evolution of that alignment over time and hence lets you examine alignment at the start of the wave vs alignment in the steady state condition. If you do this, you'll find that the correct delay differs according to whether you choose to align the leading edge or the steady state. Invariably one aligns to the steady state here though whether I could honestly tell the difference, I have no idea I also have no idea whether any human can subjectively perceive a difference at this level of resolution when comparing audible content to tactile content but, if you can, it raises the Q of whether you should use a longer signal for that subjective alignment process.

Do you find you get consistent results if you blind test yourself at dialling it in? what about blind testing to pick the difference? might be hard to do the switching quickly enough using offboard dsp but would be interesting to see the results if it is possible. I can't say I'd be bothered enough to test that myself mind you
Matt.....Thanks for weighing in and doing a deep dive on the signal. When I received the file this weekend, I hastily ran it through your BEQd app to see the frequency content before testing it out since I had no idea the origin of the signal or description of what the signal was supposed to be other than a time alignment signal.

The 30Hz band was prominent along with content below 10Hz centered at 6Hz. Although that content was ~30dBFS lower in level. After your comments and looking at the waveform, I agree about the sub 10Hz content. Looks like noise down there that was being analyzed and reported since the signal is only 100 ms in length.

Interesting thoughts about leading edge vs. steady state. For the intended purposes of this test signal and using the good 'ole buttometer for measurement, I always presumed it was a leading edge phenomena we are "feeling" for especially with a signal of such short duration. When I think of steady state, I usually think of something happening for at least a second before our bodies can "feel" and get a sense of the steady state response.

If I'm understanding correctly, steady state alignment could also be misleading as it would just be a phase shift phenomena rather than a leading edge phenomena if the signal has strong sinusoidal content.

That's the way I've always thought about time aligning tactile vs. audible sounds anyway.....getting the leading edges to time align instead of steady state.

In this case, after your feedback, I now think the original intent was to use the 30Hz burst signal to energize both tactile and audible devices in the room and time aligning the leading edges of both using the simple buttometer. Although after thinking about that some more, with the signal only being 100ms in length, are we really time aligning the leading edges with our butt or just a weighted response to what our bodies feel and hear for that short 100ms burst.

Having said all that, if we use this 100ms 30Hz burst signal for time alignment, are there any pitfalls with this approach? I'm more of a structural response under dynamic load kind of guy with limited experience in the time domain and alignment of that response with audible signals which is why I'm asking.

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post #6261 of 6279 Old Yesterday, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for this. I did not see this piece of advice before and I'm sure that it will be a great tool.
Thanks lmidgitd.....I thought it was a handy tool also, but if we can develop a better tool for alignment, I'm all for that too. Let's see how this develops
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post #6262 of 6279 Old Yesterday, 11:10 PM
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However the signal itself appears to be 100ms long. A single cycle at 6Hz is ~167ms so not sure how you can have <10Hz content in there. FFT analysis looks like a big 30Hz peak with some side lobes.
An ideal impulse has zero time width, yet contains all frequencies from DC to infinite Hz. They are just arranged in very specific amplitude and phase relationships such that their mutual cancellation results in an infinitely narrow impulse - basic Fourier stuff, right? Why then is it impossible for a 100 msec wide impulse to contain a 6Hz component if properly constructed?

Instead of using the beginning of a waveform that has several peaks (like a CEA-2010 tone burst) as the timing reference point, why not use the peak of a bandwidth-limited impulse instead. At least the signal to noise at the peak is better than it is at the beginning of a waveform. Also an impulse stimulus allows testing of all frequencies to the cut-off in one test instead of just one frequency with a CEA toneburst (or maybe several frequencies for the case of the SOWK/giamania pulse).

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post #6263 of 6279 Old Yesterday, 11:38 PM
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1. Just showed them in there. IIRC i used 4mm plastic hose, and it was close enough to fit. Tight !

2. It is just to lock the nozzle onto the tire valve. Most pumps have such a "lock".

3. Yes, it can be disconnected. To put it simple: i used the tire valve extension hoses mentioned earlier, cut them in the middle, and used the plastic air hose to extend them even further. So both ends of the tire valve extension hose are "intact", and therefore it works simply as a extension hose.
I see you have two tires so you can inflate them at the same time and with the same pressure. Do you feel this offers a performance enhancement having the pressures perfectly matched?

I might as well ask you (and @trhought ) about what is the state of the art for the monster type hover boss tire tube. I've just ordered 4 JBL CS1214 drivers that arrive within the week and realized I need to get everything else coming in. I've got two 4x8 sheets of plywood hopefully coming Friday and probably will start construction without the drivers. I plan to actually make a 4x7 platform from these reinforced with 1x3s for a Thick Boss platform that is super rigid. My couch has five inch legs which I can remove, but I still want a similar ride height (well no more than six inches), so for the recommended tubes what would be the estimated ideal ride height?

This thing is going to get very heavy so I definitely want to do those tire inflation extensions. 16 JBL drivers 160 lbs. If I go Birch plwood that is 140 lbs for two 4x7 foot pieces. I really don't want to have to move this thing so that easy inflate setup a must.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #6264 of 6279 Old Yesterday, 11:57 PM
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it's an signal for the human brain to interpret via the auditory system and the tactile system. Can you perceive the existence of a frequency before it has completed a 1 cycle? sounds unlikely but I don't know for sure. The signal itself appears to be completely dominated by the 30Hz content though so I'd have thought it would be interpreted as a 30Hz blip.

As to how one perceives vibration over time, I have no idea. I'd guess the extent to which the vibrating surface rings after the initial stimulus would be a factor here and one that probably varies from one setup to another.
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post #6265 of 6279 Old Today, 05:19 AM
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what is the state of the art for the monster type hover boss tire tube.
Fat bike tubes. Recently discussed at the end of this thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...read-bass.html
I used these:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_ssn...+tube&_sacat=0
They seem very substantial and have a Schrader valve (but no valve cap).
Michael
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post #6266 of 6279 Old Today, 06:42 AM
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I see you have two tires so you can inflate them at the same time and with the same pressure. Do you feel this offers a performance enhancement having the pressures perfectly matched?

I might as well ask you (and @trhought ) about what is the state of the art for the monster type hover boss tire tube. I've just ordered 4 JBL CS1214 drivers that arrive within the week and realized I need to get everything else coming in. I've got two 4x8 sheets of plywood hopefully coming Friday and probably will start construction without the drivers. I plan to actually make a 4x7 platform from these reinforced with 1x3s for a Thick Boss platform that is super rigid. My couch has five inch legs which I can remove, but I still want a similar ride height (well no more than six inches), so for the recommended tubes what would be the estimated ideal ride height?

This thing is going to get very heavy so I definitely want to do those tire inflation extensions. 16 JBL drivers 160 lbs. If I go Birch plwood that is 140 lbs for two 4x7 foot pieces. I really don't want to have to move this thing so that easy inflate setup a must.
That was just my first test using the tubes as iso’s. Not hoverboss. I use seperate hoses for each tube today on my hoverboss.

If you check the TR thread there are more info about fat tubes lately. I have only tried two types, the cheapest i could find(~2") and the current Maxxis fat bike tubes(~4"), but there are probably a LOT of tubes usable. SO many brands and dimensions, it is impossible to give a correct answer
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post #6267 of 6279 Old Today, 06:47 AM
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it's an signal for the human brain to interpret via the auditory system and the tactile system. Can you perceive the existence of a frequency before it has completed a 1 cycle? sounds unlikely but I don't know for sure. The signal itself appears to be completely dominated by the 30Hz content though so I'd have thought it would be interpreted as a 30Hz blip.

As to how one perceives vibration over time, I have no idea. I'd guess the extent to which the vibrating surface rings after the initial stimulus would be a factor here and one that probably varies from one setup to another.
Not sure what the SOWK/giamania pulse looks like, but I'm advocating for a bandwidth-limited impulse stimulus for bass testing in attempt to improve the TR system's transient performance. I think we can hear and especially feel how sharply an impulse is tuned. The pulse in the SOWK/giamania clip doesn't sound all that sharp to me when listening on headphones. OTOH the bass transients in the Firework Finale Short clip linked at this Danley page sound very sharp to me. Listen for the launch explosions after the 2:30 min mark.

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post #6268 of 6279 Old Today, 01:39 PM
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First off, thank you to @trhought for coming up with this BOSS concept. Sounds freakin awesome.

I'd like to attempt in my setup but trying to figure out the lowest cost way of accomplishing it.

I have an output available on my miniDSP 2x4hd and 2 channels available on my Outlaw 7100 amp that I was thinking to use for powering a BOSS platform (4x8). The amp does either [email protected] or [email protected] per channel.

My thinking is to use the mini's output to adjust gain and eq on the BOSS as needed, splitting the signal into the 2 Outlaw channels.

Wire up 2 of the recommended jbl subs to each channel in series for 8ohm impedance which would provide 50w per speaker/per channel. Total of 4 subs for the platform.

I know the recommended wattage is 80w per sub, but with the amp/Watts I have, that's not possible right? Parallel wiring for 2 subs gives me 2 ohms and series wiring gives me 8 ohms(?). Not very knowledgeable about wiring speakers like this...

Given 50w/sub, I was considering adding the innertubes to increase the TR feedback. Hoping that between the 4 subs and the inner tubes, my BOSS platform will still perform decently despite being 50w instead of 80w per sub. If anyone with more knowledge and experience could help me out, I'd really appreciate it.
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post #6269 of 6279 Old Today, 02:28 PM
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BOSS platform will still perform decently despite being 50w instead of 80w per sub. If anyone with more knowledge and experience could help me out, I'd really appreciate it.
I am running 3 x 15" subs for my platform from an old AVR. I think it would be lucky to be putting out 50w per channel and it ROCKS
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post #6270 of 6279 Old Today, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ancthree View Post
First off, thank you to @trhought for coming up with this BOSS concept. Sounds freakin awesome.

I'd like to attempt in my setup but trying to figure out the lowest cost way of accomplishing it.

I have an output available on my miniDSP 2x4hd and 2 channels available on my Outlaw 7100 amp that I was thinking to use for powering a BOSS platform (4x8). The amp does either [email protected] or [email protected] per channel.

My thinking is to use the mini's output to adjust gain and eq on the BOSS as needed, splitting the signal into the 2 Outlaw channels.

Wire up 2 of the recommended jbl subs to each channel in series for 8ohm impedance which would provide 50w per speaker/per channel. Total of 4 subs for the platform.

I know the recommended wattage is 80w per sub, but with the amp/Watts I have, that's not possible right? Parallel wiring for 2 subs gives me 2 ohms and series wiring gives me 8 ohms(?). Not very knowledgeable about wiring speakers like this...

Given 50w/sub, I was considering adding the innertubes to increase the TR feedback. Hoping that between the 4 subs and the inner tubes, my BOSS platform will still perform decently despite being 50w instead of 80w per sub. If anyone with more knowledge and experience could help me out, I'd really appreciate it.
I started out my BOSS with 4 JBLs running off two channels of an Outlaw 5000 and it worked well. Once I added tubes, the BOSS could take much more power so I bought a Behringer NX3000.
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