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post #61 of 4340 Old 02-27-2019, 09:11 AM
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I found my way here from your post on the JTR subwoofer thread.

What a great idea. I have wished for taller ceilings for years so that I could put in a riser to get the feel that rooms with suspended wood floors get. Your idea makes that not only a reality (since the riser can be so short) but even better since the riser would be actively controlled by drivers.

I have used a 18" VNF sub right behind me along with Crowons to go along with 8 sealed 18's stacked in the front corners of the room for years now. It's great but what bugs me sometimes is that while I love what the VNF sub and Crowon can do (I prefer VNF sub from around 20hz and up and I prefer Crowsons from around 20hz and down) I still like the feeling I get from the up front subs the most. The reason for that is that the feel is more natural from the far away subs. However, even though there are 8 of them the feeling isn't as strong as what you can get from the VNF and Crowson combination, especially down low with the Crowson. Over the years I have dialed back on the VNF sub and Crowsons because too much can take me out of the movie.

It sounds like your idea may be the best of all worlds because the feel from the BOSS may be very similar to the feel from my up front subs but just WAY MORE of it. I won't have to do the crazy house curve boost and run the 8 subs so hot which will also save my hearing.

I haven't been excited about making a change to the room in a very long time but this has me very intrigued.

One thing I do like to do for music is get that punchy feel from the VNF sub, and I'm assuming you can't quite get that from the BOSS setup so I imagine I would have to keep the VNF sub for music. However... it doesn't seem like I would need to keep running the Crowsons.

I think I read that you were planning on doing a comparison sometime, if you do that make sure you let us all know how that goes!
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post #62 of 4340 Old 02-27-2019, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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@carp Thanks for stopping by and for your description of what you want to achieve with your setup.

Since this past summer, I too have been chasing the magic formula for balancing VNF and tactile via buttkickers along with the far-field subs. Buttkickers always felt gimmicky to me after awhile and I didn't really experience VNF until this summer when my father gave me a few subwoofers he had that weren't getting any use.

With several VNF arrangements and experiments over 3-4 months with those subs, I realized VNF also started to get "gimmicky" after awhile despite my best efforts for integrating them and tweaking them until they felt right.

Then, after reading a lot on the VibSensor thread and the ULF thread, it occurred to me that the only way to get ULF right was to simulate how we feel ULF in the real world...through our bodies, coming from below us. Not behind us, not beside us, not from around us, but below us.

Once I had that epiphany and discovering the ridiculously priced JBL's my imagination went wild and after a few concept builds, the BOSS was born.

The effect simply has to be felt to be believed. Incredible TR down to 3Hz and totally natural for both music and movies. I listen to music mostly when it's just me in the theater and the articulation of the bass and shear power brings a smile to my face every time. I couldn't imagine Crowson's being able to deliver the same experience unless I had 4 of them on each corner of the platform and even then, I'm not sure they would be as natural feeling as the subwoofers.

The BOSS also integrated so easily into my setup....I was originally thinking DSP would be needed to add delay at a minimum. But, that hasn't been the case at all. It feels so natural as-is and I'm just feeding it an LFE signal from the AVR with a LPF setting of 80Hz for the LFE....so simple, it's crazy.

After doing more research after the fact, the open baffle alignment is probably helping a lot with the ease of integration with my far-field subs. Basically, the open baffle configuration is allowing the back wave to cancel the front wave so there's minimum detriment to all the room tuning I had done prior. That's a great thing...I wasn't looking forward to the multiple sub tweaking He!! again...lol.

To answer your question about comparison to Crowson's, unfortunately, that's not in the cards right now. Kid's college expenses will be taking all our disposable income for the next 10 years...lol. I figure a fair comparison would take at least 2 Crowsons on either the front or back of the riser or maybe even 4 Crowson's on each corner or mid-points...that's definitely not going to happen any time soon with my situation...lol.

I was hoping those who already have Crowsons and the JBL's already...like @Nalleh , could do the experiment for us...wink, wink, Nalleh.

Or, with your setup, maybe you could help satisfy our curiosity if you wouldn't mind spending ~$100 to build a BOSS (3 JBL's at $29 ea. plus a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" plywood)....wink, wink!

You'll be amazed and won't regret building a BOSS, especially a mini-riser BOSS for your low ceiling height. And, yes, the punch in the chest is definitely there with the BOSS...it gives me that coughing, rattling feeling in my lungs sometimes during some of the BEQ'd Porcupine Tree tracks when that kick drum is hitting oh so sweetly during spirited reference volume listening sessions....awesome stuff!
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post #63 of 4340 Old 02-27-2019, 02:53 PM
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Looks like I've got some reading to do in your thread when I get a chance (just read the last two posts on your last page) since I last visited it a couple weeks ago after seeing your BOSS post in the BEQ thread. Like carp, I'm really intrigued with it as well and may try it at some point, maybe down in my living room first. I cant imagine replacing my VNFs behind me plus the Crowsons and BKs which I love when all combined, but hey, I'd do it if it was better For your front row BOSS, how much does it raise the seats off the floor? I'm thinking about 2-3" maybe since the drivers are facing down and the big magnet does up under you seats. Just need enough clearance for the drivers to move before they tough the ground (the isolators if tall enough would keep them from touching the ground with high excursion).

I posted a bit about it over in Nalleh's thread earlier today.

Just curious, do you have any VS graphs you can post from say EOT intro just to see what kind of movement you get at those 5 frequencies that step down with your BOSS on the first row (and or even the second row)? They go from 30, 25, 20, 15, and the last being 10hz. Would be interesting to see those. Would be cool to see a white noise 0-50hz as well and maybe even a REW sweep (all with bass around ref levels). Keep in mind (as you probably already know though), VibSensor doesn't show really well below about 8-9hz, so even if your getting great TR into the singles, it may not show much.

Objectively this could be very cool to see. But subjective would most definitely have to be experienced like you say. Sounds like it could be and IS awesome!

I'll be following everyone's experiences with it I love all this TR stuff and this new way of achieving it is very cool and interesting!
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post #64 of 4340 Old 02-27-2019, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
@carp Thanks for stopping by and for your description of what you want to achieve with your setup.

Since this past summer, I too have been chasing the magic formula for balancing VNF and tactile via buttkickers along with the far-field subs. Buttkickers always felt gimmicky to me after awhile and I didn't really experience VNF until this summer when my father gave me a few subwoofers he had that weren't getting any use.

With several VNF arrangements and experiments over 3-4 months with those subs, I realized VNF also started to get "gimmicky" after awhile despite my best efforts for integrating them and tweaking them until they felt right.

Then, after reading a lot on the VibSensor thread and the ULF thread, it occurred to me that the only way to get ULF right was to simulate how we feel ULF in the real world...through our bodies, coming from below us. Not behind us, not beside us, not from around us, but below us.

Once I had that epiphany and discovering the ridiculously priced JBL's my imagination went wild and after a few concept builds, the BOSS was born.

The effect simply has to be felt to be believed. Incredible TR down to 3Hz and totally natural for both music and movies. I listen to music mostly when it's just me in the theater and the articulation of the bass and shear power brings a smile to my face every time. I couldn't imagine Crowson's being able to deliver the same experience unless I had 4 of them on each corner of the platform and even then, I'm not sure they would be as natural feeling as the subwoofers.

The BOSS also integrated so easily into my setup....I was originally thinking DSP would be needed to add delay at a minimum. But, that hasn't been the case at all. It feels so natural as-is and I'm just feeding it an LFE signal from the AVR with a LPF setting of 80Hz for the LFE....so simple, it's crazy.

After doing more research after the fact, the open baffle alignment is probably helping a lot with the ease of integration with my far-field subs. Basically, the open baffle configuration is allowing the back wave to cancel the front wave so there's minimum detriment to all the room tuning I had done prior. That's a great thing...I wasn't looking forward to the multiple sub tweaking He!! again...lol.

To answer your question about comparison to Crowson's, unfortunately, that's not in the cards right now. Kid's college expenses will be taking all our disposable income for the next 10 years...lol. I figure a fair comparison would take at least 2 Crowsons on either the front or back of the riser or maybe even 4 Crowson's on each corner or mid-points...that's definitely not going to happen any time soon with my situation...lol.

I was hoping those who already have Crowsons and the JBL's already...like @Nalleh , could do the experiment for us...wink, wink, Nalleh.

Or, with your setup, maybe you could help satisfy our curiosity if you wouldn't mind spending ~$100 to build a BOSS (3 JBL's at $29 ea. plus a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" plywood)....wink, wink!

You'll be amazed and won't regret building a BOSS, especially a mini-riser BOSS for your low ceiling height. And, yes, the punch in the chest is definitely there with the BOSS...it gives me that coughing, rattling feeling in my lungs sometimes during some of the BEQ'd Porcupine Tree tracks when that kick drum is hitting oh so sweetly during spirited reference volume listening sessions....awesome stuff!


Thanks for the info, I'm even more excited now that I know you have experienced NF subs.

I am all over this this summer. I'm a teacher and a coach and I'll be swamped with track and field for the next 3 months, but then it's play time when that's done.

A few questions.

1. How far out does the platform come out in front of the front row seats?
2. I'm concerned that there could be a tripping issue with that front row platform. I was thinking I could put an LED light strip around the border of it, but also make it so that it just comes out far enough for the person sitting to have their feet on it and no further, so if someone did trip on it they would simply catch their knee of the chair and no big deal...
3. My back row riser is very heavy and wondering if it could still work with a heavy riser and 4 people on a large couch.

thanks!
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post #65 of 4340 Old 02-27-2019, 04:27 PM
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Looks like you already answered my 3rd question! Here it is for anyone that is curious:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post57668430
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post #66 of 4340 Old 02-27-2019, 04:33 PM
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BTW, I assume you already have it but just in case you should get the 5.1 disk of the In Absentia album. Amazing sound.
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post #67 of 4340 Old 02-27-2019, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Looks like I've got some reading to do in your thread when I get a chance (just read the last two posts on your last page) since I last visited it a couple weeks ago after seeing your BOSS post in the BEQ thread. Like carp, I'm really intrigued with it as well and may try it at some point, maybe down in my living room first. I cant imagine replacing my VNFs behind me plus the Crowsons and BKs which I love when all combined, but hey, I'd do it if it was better For your front row BOSS, how much does it raise the seats off the floor? I'm thinking about 2-3" maybe since the drivers are facing down and the big magnet does up under you seats. Just need enough clearance for the drivers to move before they tough the ground (the isolators if tall enough would keep them from touching the ground with high excursion).

I posted a bit about it over in Nalleh's thread earlier today.

Just curious, do you have any VS graphs you can post from say EOT intro just to see what kind of movement you get at those 5 frequencies that step down with your BOSS on the first row (and or even the second row)? They go from 30, 25, 20, 15, and the last being 10hz. Would be interesting to see those. Would be cool to see a white noise 0-50hz as well and maybe even a REW sweep (all with bass around ref levels). Keep in mind (as you probably already know though), VibSensor doesn't show really well below about 8-9hz, so even if your getting great TR into the singles, it may not show much.

Objectively this could be very cool to see. But subjective would most definitely have to be experienced like you say. Sounds like it could be and IS awesome!

I'll be following everyone's experiences with it I love all this TR stuff and this new way of achieving it is very cool and interesting!
Hey SBuger.....Thanks for stopping by....it was your setup and our dialogue this summer that made me rethink my entire theater and initiated my journey into TR. That and a few subwoofers from my father which made the TR and VNF experiments so much easier....lol. Then, the discovery of the $29 JBL's......everything just started falling into place after a few months...funny how that works.

The total height of the BOSS is only about 1.75" tall including the 3/4" plywood, plus any carpet to finish it off. Perfect for living rooms or front rows in theaters which typically need the mini-riser BOSS version as opposed to the full-riser-height version of the BOSS. All the details are in post 29 to keep it simple for anyone wanting to build one or the other or both. Even included a drawing for visually oriented folks like me. You will also be amazed how easy the BOSS integrates into your existing system. No need to adjust delays, just set the LPF for LFE in your AVR for 80Hz. There's the 80/80/180 rule I have to make setup super easy...you will see the details of what that means as you read more about the BOSS.

The EOT beginning is off-the-charts awesome on the BOSS. I'll try to get some video of the BOSS in action during that scene. I love how it starts at 30 Hz and goes down in discrete 5 Hz increments to 10Hz. That scene is a great idea to showcase how the BOSS responds. Will also plan to get the 6 Hz Lone Survivor Scene Nalleh has in his thread....can't believe I don't have a demo scene of that one already. Will post those results soon.
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post #68 of 4340 Old 02-27-2019, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Thanks for the info, I'm even more excited now that I know you have experienced NF subs.

I am all over this this summer. I'm a teacher and a coach and I'll be swamped with track and field for the next 3 months, but then it's play time when that's done.

A few questions.

1. How far out does the platform come out in front of the front row seats?
2. I'm concerned that there could be a tripping issue with that front row platform. I was thinking I could put an LED light strip around the border of it, but also make it so that it just comes out far enough for the person sitting to have their feet on it and no further, so if someone did trip on it they would simply catch their knee of the chair and no big deal...
3. My back row riser is very heavy and wondering if it could still work with a heavy riser and 4 people on a large couch.

thanks!
Hey carp....awesome stuff being a coach and teacher...I bet that's satisfying and challenging at the same time.

Just finished helping my 15 y.o. son with geometry....patience, I kept reminding myself....patience...lol. I ran track in H.S., was a sprinter and jumper (100m, 200m, 400m, relays, long jump). Coach always made me run the 800m in the beginning of the season to build a good base for later in the season...that's what he always told me anyway. That and he always strongly encouraged me to run cross country in the fall to keep in shape during the off-season...haha.

For 1, I just measured the foot rest for the mini-riser and it's 8". Only because the depth of the couch is 40" and the plywood is 4'x8' so I had the 8" left over for the foot rest. Works out pretty good but I've found being reclined is also satisfying so it probably all depends on what you like best and what your end goal is.

For 2, it is a trip hazard but I've placed a foot stool right in front of it on the right hand side of the platform where everyone enters the room. Now, everyone naturally goes around the foot rest as they're approaching the front row to sit down. I think the BOSS experience would probably be just as good without the footrest given my experience with reclining but I sometimes like putting my feet down there, especially during music to complete the experience but that's just me. Guests and family members could probably care less one way or the other...lol.

For 3, yep, the BOSS does just fine fully loaded per your link below. The isolators help with the bounce effect and it doesn't change much even with lots of weight on top. Weird saying bounce effect but for lack of a better term that's all I can think of. Bounce effect implies the system is sloppy, but it's quite the opposite. The platform responds on command from the JBL's and with unbelievable fidelity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Looks like you already answered my 3rd question! Here it is for anyone that is curious:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post57668430

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
BTW, I assume you already have it but just in case you should get the 5.1 disk of the In Absentia album. Amazing sound.
In Absentia is great....I just don't have in 5.1...one of the few PT albums I don't have in 5.1 yet. I BEQ'd Deadwing a couple week ago and brought that album up to what I was expecting after getting so spoiled listening to Stupid Dream, Fear of a Blank Planet and The Incident. Those albums are awesome even without BEQ. Deadwing with BEQ sounds just like those 3 albums now. Have you compared In Absentia 5.1 to any of those 3 5.1 albums regarding that awesome kick drum sound...just curious if I'll have to BEQ In Absentia also when I get it or will it hold its own....lol.
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post #69 of 4340 Old 02-27-2019, 08:29 PM
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Hey carp....awesome stuff being a coach and teacher...I bet that's satisfying and challenging at the same time.

Just finished helping my 15 y.o. son with geometry....patience, I kept reminding myself....patience...lol. I ran track in H.S., was a sprinter and jumper (100m, 200m, 400m, relays, long jump). Coach always made me run the 800m in the beginning of the season to build a good base for later in the season...that's what he always told me anyway. That and he always strongly encouraged me to run cross country in the fall to keep in shape during the off-season...haha.

For 1, I just measured the foot rest for the mini-riser and it's 8". Only because the depth of the couch is 40" and the plywood is 4'x8' so I had the 8" left over for the foot rest. Works out pretty good but I've found being reclined is also satisfying so it probably all depends on what you like best and what your end goal is.

For 2, it is a trip hazard but I've placed a foot stool right in front of it on the right hand side of the platform where everyone enters the room. Now, everyone naturally goes around the foot rest as they're approaching the front row to sit down. I think the BOSS experience would probably be just as good without the footrest given my experience with reclining but I sometimes like putting my feet down there, especially during music to complete the experience but that's just me. Guests and family members could probably care less one way or the other...lol.

For 3, yep, the BOSS does just fine fully loaded per your link below. The isolators help with the bounce effect and it doesn't change much even with lots of weight on top. Weird saying bounce effect but for lack of a better term that's all I can think of. Bounce effect implies the system is sloppy, but it's quite the opposite. The platform responds on command from the JBL's and with unbelievable fidelity.






In Absentia is great....I just don't have in 5.1...one of the few PT albums I don't have in 5.1 yet. I BEQ'd Deadwing a couple week ago and brought that album up to what I was expecting after getting so spoiled listening to Stupid Dream, Fear of a Blank Planet and The Incident. Those albums are awesome even without BEQ. Deadwing with BEQ sounds just like those 3 albums now. Have you compared In Absentia 5.1 to any of those 3 5.1 albums regarding that awesome kick drum sound...just curious if I'll have to BEQ In Absentia also when I get it or will it hold its own....lol.

A fellow jumper! I was a long, triple, and high jumper in high school and then did all 3 in college at Nebraska with high jump being my best event. I love that my 7th grade daughter did cross country this year, it builds character and it seems like the vast majority of cross country kids are good kids. 4.0, play an instrument, etc.

Thanks for answering the questions, I'm in a bit of a different situation in that my front row is significantly curved.








I really like it curved, it gives more room behind the front row and when people are sitting in the front row it is so much easier to see and talk to each other during sports or whatever then with a straight row.

Anyway, that causes more challenges for figuring out how to do a riser(s) and how far to make it stick out in front of the chairs. I think I would want to have it stick out because there are times that I sit with my feet on the floor when listening to music (I am usually reclined though) and there are some people that come over that don't recline and I would want to keep the effect consistent.

I'll be so curious to see how BOSS compares to the Crowson. The crowson is also good to very low, in fact with a 1hz test tone you still get movement. It's subtle and a very, very slow wobble, but it's there and it gives me an uneasy feeling but not in a bad way. I've never experienced that slow of movement during actual content though. 5hz is much more noticeable.

I don't have any of the other albums in 5.1, in fact I didn't know they had other albums in 5.1. I mostly listen to metal, but I discovered Porcupine Tree through Opeth when Steven Wilson helped out on the Blackwater Park album almost 20 years ago.
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post #70 of 4340 Old 02-27-2019, 10:29 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^^Awesome. A collegiate jumper!

Yeah...fond memories of CC and those Friday night pasta parties at the coach's house before the Saturday invitationals. Good times. To be young again and no responsibilities. Haha.

I love the curved front row. Very rich looking and conducive to conversation when seated. If those are individual chairs, the easiest BOSS implementation would be 4 individual platforms, one under each chair, 1 woofer per platform.

If that gets too busy looking, 2 platforms with 2 chairs on each with 2 woofers per platform. One under each seat.

Would have to see how the curves lay out on the 2 4x8 sheets of plywood, but hopefully it could lay-in there OK depending on the size of the chairs.

Always looking for new 5.1 music material. Thanks for the mention of other works and bands to help with my searches!
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post #71 of 4340 Old 02-28-2019, 11:57 AM
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This is something I have to try, I have some 90mm xmax drivers and amp doing nothing. I had thought about a riser in the past but didn't want to deal with cancellation. I really could high pass these steep at 25hz and not have to worry about it. Great idea man
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post #72 of 4340 Old 02-28-2019, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Videos of both BOSS's in action

Wanted to post some quick videos I shot today during lunch to help give an idea what to expect from either a mini-riser BOSS or a full-riser BOSS. As they say, pictures are worth a thousand words.

Edge of Tomorrow - Intro scene (30Hz sine wave down to 10Hz sine wave in 5Hz increments). This is on the front row mini-riser BOSS. The rattling you're hearing is one of my turntables rattling on the back row bar (see the next video below). When sitting on either the front row BOSS or back row BOSS, my teeth start to rattle around 25Hz all the way down to 10Hz at -14dB main volume setting on my AVR with no BEQ....pure awesomeness!


Edge of Tomorrow - Intro scene - Back row BOSS in 12" riser, the bar table is sitting on the back riser BOSS and you can see the motion best as the turntable is shaking....this is at -14dB main volume setting with no BEQ.

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post #73 of 4340 Old 02-28-2019, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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More Videos of both BOSS's in action

Lone Survivor - Chopper Drop Scene (6Hz) BOSS response on front row mini-riser, notice how the back of the recliner is slowly rocking to the 6 Hz thumping. Feels like you are right there on the ground looking up at the chopper when sitting on the BOSS!


Lone Survivor - Chopper Drop Scene, this is a DVD case on the back row bar which is resting on the back row riser BOSS...notice how it's gently swaying to the 6Hz chopper blade thumping!

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post #74 of 4340 Old 02-28-2019, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
This is something I have to try, I have some 90mm xmax drivers and amp doing nothing. I had thought about a riser in the past but didn't want to deal with cancellation. I really could high pass these steep at 25hz and not have to worry about it. Great idea man
Oh man, 90mm Xmax.....that will truly be killer Gorilla Enjoy....can't wait to see a picture/video of your BOSS in action. The cancellation due to the open baffle alignment is actually a benefit, it makes integration into your existing speaker system so much easier.

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post #75 of 4340 Old 03-01-2019, 12:16 AM
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Very cool on the vids Tim!! Thanks for posting them and for the info on the height of the BOSS and other. Definitely gonna try this at some point, maybe this spring or summer

I need to go back and read through all the specifics and I think it tells me IIRC, but If I wanted to power 3 of those JBL's for the small BOSS like on your first row seating, what do you think the best way to do that would be and how much power? Probably just an inuke 1000 with DSP to limit the watts I'm thinking.
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post #76 of 4340 Old 03-01-2019, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^^SBuger. Yes, the 1000 DSP would be a great choice and probably the best cost also unless you have a spare amp that is capable of about 200-250 watts into 12 ohms (3 JBL's in series).

In an IB/OB alignment, these JBL's will hit Xmax with ~80 watts each according to WinISD. So just size your power accordingly.

The cool thing about the Behringer DSP models is they allow you to input the power limit. So, for example, in the 1000 DSP, just input the 12 ohms into the DSP and simply set the power limit to 240 watts (80 watts times 3 JBL's) and that will be perfect.
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post #77 of 4340 Old 03-01-2019, 09:28 AM
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To his question about your BOSS setup making noise and Buttkicker not making noise... So I have two buttkicker LFE attached to my 3 person sleeper sofa couch and I can honestly say the Buttkickers make plenty of noise especially when they bottom out and you hear a clang of metal hitting internally, still trying to figure out how to reduce that issue. ^^;;
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post #78 of 4340 Old 03-01-2019, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^^ Oh yeah. The buttkickers sure make a racket when they bottom. I haven't bottomed any of the drivers on the BOSS with my current setup. But, I'm amp limited and have no desire to increase power with the incredible TR that I'm getting already from the BOSS at 80 watts per driver.

I'm sure as one starts approaching 100 watts with the JBL's in a BOSS, they will likely get close to bottoming, but I'm not sure where that power threshold is because JBL doesn't publish X-mech for the drivers, only X-max.
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post #79 of 4340 Old 03-01-2019, 03:55 PM
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Awsome videos man. It sure seems to be a insanely easy/cheap way to get lots of TR Good work

Regarding BK’s bottoming out: yes they seem to do that from about 15 hz and down. Try adding a 13hz HPF, or a negative low shelf of about -7-8 dB at 13-17hz. Works wonders in my setup

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post #80 of 4340 Old 03-01-2019, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Awsome videos man. It sure seems to be a insanely easy/cheap way to get lots of TR Good work

Regarding BK’s bottoming out: yes they seem to do that from about 15 hz and down. Try adding a 13hz HPF, or a negative low shelf of about -7-8 dB at 13-17hz. Works wonders in my setup
I did use this at one time but it would pass only 20hz and higher, have you seen anything similar that would be either adjustable (but doesnt cost an arm and a leg) or at 13 or even 15hz?

https://www.parts-express.com/harris...s-rca--266-246

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post #81 of 4340 Old 03-01-2019, 05:11 PM
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I did use this at one time but it would pass only 20hz and higher, have you seen anything similar that would be either adjustable (but doesnt cost an arm and a leg) or at 13 or even 15hz?

https://www.parts-express.com/harris...s-rca--266-246

Yeah, sorry about that, i am so used to everyone having a Mindsp these days, i didn’t think of anything else, LOL.
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post #82 of 4340 Old 03-02-2019, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Awsome videos man. It sure seems to be a insanely easy/cheap way to get lots of TR Good work

Regarding BK’s bottoming out: yes they seem to do that from about 15 hz and down. Try adding a 13hz HPF, or a negative low shelf of about -7-8 dB at 13-17hz. Works wonders in my setup
Nalleh....Thanks for stopping by and for the compliments on the BOSS. Your setup and @SBuger 's setup have been an inspiration to get my creativity juices flowing and thinking outside the box when it comes to home theater. The detailed pictures and explanations of your setups, the blow by blow descriptions of your experiences during different scenes, trying new and different solutions to take the whole home theater experience to the next level.....truly inspiring!

In reading your posts and SBugers.....it was always with thoughts like "yes, this is what I want to do when the kids are through college". Because I always thought it would be expensive to get into the ULF game and single digit TR setups.

But then, after a 10" subwoofer gift from my father this summer, that led to some experiments with placing that sub close to our listening positions as I was playing around. Suddenly, I realized it wasn't that hard to achieve ULF and it really didn't cost that much if I approached my ULF goals pragmatically.

Then, the discovery of a reliable measuring tool in the VibSensor that allowed me to conduct even more apples to apples comparisons using different VNF setups in a controlled environment. I realized VNF, when placed below the listener, delivered the best bang-for-buck. It wasn't even close to any other arrangement I was testing. Because you were not only feeling all the things we normally associate with VNF setups, but you were also physically feeling every mechanical motion of the sub, it's cabinet walls and the entire cabinet itself moving when sitting on it. I also discovered during my testing when sitting on the subwoofer directly, the addition of rubber isolators underneath the subwoofer took the TR experience to an entirely different level. These were exciting discoveries!

Finally everything started coming together after learning about the insanely low-priced $29 JBL's. Once I seen those, I immediately knew I was going to put them in our back riser as an experiment to see if all my small-scale experiments could be scaled upwards and that's when the BOSS was born in our back riser.

The BOSS truly is an insanely cheap and easy way to achieve unbelievable TR. And, I mean unbelievable in every possible interpretation of the word...lol. Even today, when I sit on one of my BOSS's and fire up a demo scene or a favorite album, a big smile comes to my face...I can't even help it....lol.

And to think, all it took was 6 JBL's at $29 each, a sheet of plywood, some speaker wire, connectors and screws to fasten the JBL's to the plaforms and we were in ULF heaven for every seat in the theater on both rows plus the 3rd row bar....all for less than $250....that brings another big smile to my face....lol.

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post #83 of 4340 Old 03-02-2019, 10:10 AM
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@trhought for a 2 seat recliner setup what would you recommend for number of speakers? And to go along with that any recommendation on an amplifier and how to wire them up? Very much a noob when it comes to building a speaker, I've only ever bought completed items before.
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post #84 of 4340 Old 03-02-2019, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Daniel Chaves View Post
I did use this at one time but it would pass only 20hz and higher, have you seen anything similar that would be either adjustable (but doesnt cost an arm and a leg) or at 13 or even 15hz?

https://www.parts-express.com/harris...s-rca--266-246
Daniel.....regarding your goal of eliminating bottoming of the buttkickers, the HPF is one way.

Another way is to implement a BOSS into your design for the added immersion you will get below 10Hz. The BOSS also does great with 10Hz and above content. You won't have to run your buttkickers nearly as hard and you may even find you don't need the buttkickers at all and can sell them to offset the cost of the JBL's....lol.
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post #85 of 4340 Old 03-02-2019, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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@trhought for a 2 seat recliner setup what would you recommend for number of speakers? And to go along with that any recommendation on an amplifier and how to wire them up? Very much a noob when it comes to building a speaker, I've only ever bought completed items before.
dgrizzard.....one JBL under each seat will be plenty....wired in series for 8 ohms load to the amp. The Behringer 1000NXD or a used inuke 1000 DSP will be perfect for your setup. Just enter 8 ohms into the Behringer power limiter DSP and dial in 160 watts (80 watts times 2 JBL's) and that will be perfect.

Below is how to wire two 4 ohm speakers in series for 8 ohms total load to the amp.

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post #86 of 4340 Old 03-02-2019, 12:10 PM
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@trhought : thanks for the kind words, much appreciated.

Now, granted my system has escalated a bit over the years, but that was exactly the point when i started my thread, not to brag, but show how you can do it, using alternative ways, and maybe not always the easy expensive way. With money, everything is easy, but i am not rich, so i need to be creative instead. And i am glad it can the of inspiration.

I have to admit, your setup and ideas have impressed me too, and i love your creativity, and not the least: the results. You sure are on to something, and it has been awsome to read about your journey too

I know you say 3 JBL’s is plenty, but you know me, so what i am wondering is: how well does it scale up? Say 12x JBL’s under couch?

3x 18" SI HST?

2x SI 24" ?

Now THAT would be a fun experiment

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post #87 of 4340 Old 03-02-2019, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^^ @Nalleh .....Thanks for the kind words and insight into your own home theater journey. I had forgotten about your humble beginnings with your Franken-Atmos setup back when multi-channel Atmos and all the power required to drive each channel were rather expensive, and still are in my opinion...lol.

This hobby of our is truly satisfying with all the different ways to deliver the experience in our own setups at home. And, the ingenuity and creativity it sometimes takes for those of us who like to tinker or don't want to spend a lot of money, or both...lol.

Regarding your question of scaling of the BOSS by adding drivers and amplifiers, that was probably a rhetorical question, but coming from you, I have to take it seriously......lol.

I have given it some thought though......

The mini-riser BOSS would probably be limited in scale just because of all the magnets (or size of the magnets with bigger drivers) that would be sticking out. They would be a trip hazard and would have to be covered up somehow with furniture pieces to hide them and make them safe......safe from damaging us when we fall over them and safe from being damaged by us kicking them...lol.

The full riser height BOSS could probably scale rather easily since their magnets would be inside the riser and you would only have to worry about protecting the dust caps and cones from footfall. Regarding the TR delivered per dollar spent, it's probably diminishing returns as one starts to move away from the JBL's or add more JBL's.

As more JBL drivers are added, the cost of power requirements go up exponentially. As non-JBL drivers are added, the cost of the drivers and the power to drive them go up exponentially. With those costs going up exponentially, I can't imagine a scenario where TR delivered goes up exponentially. It's probably more of a linear relationship and then TR levels off at some point.

Having said that, I'm sure there is a sweet spot for BOSS TR delivered vs. amount of drivers/power/dollars needed, it would just be a matter of experimenting. Very few of us have all the materials needed to conduct such an experiment but some of us do.....I'm thinking of you when I say that.....haha.

I think a BOSS or two would be a great addition to your TR arsenal....lol.
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post #88 of 4340 Old 03-02-2019, 01:37 PM
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^^^ Yes, if you think as cheap as possible, it start to unravel quick, but as a alternativ to a MA or BK setup, which is more normal, you have more to go on.

Say a BK setup: 4x BK LFE + 1x NU6K = ~$1500 ‘ish.

4x MA + 1x NU6K = $2500 ‘ish.

A lot more money, but a lot more options too.

Still: 12x JBL + 1x NU6K = $800 ! Still cheaper, and a 12x BOSS should ROCK

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post #89 of 4340 Old 03-02-2019, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^^ Yeah.....you won't even need a NU6K for 12 JBL's in a BOSS....NU3K would be plenty, so the cost wouldn't even be $800. I'm sensing a BOSS in your future.....if so, can't wait to see a 12x SUPER BOSS!
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post #90 of 4340 Old 03-02-2019, 02:04 PM
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Now THAT would be a fun experiment
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