Originally Posted by harrisu
Ok so here is a question for you. Say you turn off NF and only use BOSS with other FF subs, what would you be missing? No BK,MO. Just BOSS + FF subs. What would you be missing? The reason I ask this question is to understand what you think of BOSS as to what it brings and also what NF brings that BOSS doesn't.
Good questions! First, I think I'm just a VNF sub lover through and through and have been ever since I first tried it and started messing with it in different ways about 4 years ago with my Rythmik FV15HP and JTR cap. It just shocked the hell out of me just how much more it delivered in that area that I craved more of and had been chasing and trying to get with FF subs alone and at WAY too loud of listening levels. Because the louder you can stand to listen, the harder the subs are gonna bring it not matter where they are located.
So when I tried it, I was like "Oh hell yeah, this is more like it!!!
" and felt like I had hit the HT bass jackpot! I wanted 'FEEL' and tons of it without having to wreck havoc on my ears with super high SPLs to get it (and still not feel like enough). And not just Tactile Shake Feel. In fact I don't even know that I really new what TR stood for and really meant and what it was really capable of creating back then. I just new I wanted to feel it within my body, not just having the seats shake like crazy. That's cool too, but too much of this shaking without a certain feeling of impact to go along with it can feel lopsided or out of balance. Yes, there is such a thing as too much shake, at least at certain frequencies if the feeling of raw bass aggression that you can feel within the body doesn't accompany it, at least a fair amount of it. This is what I feel VNFs positioned and ran a certain way just really bring it home, at least for me in my current setup and especially my last. My old couch in my previous setup on concrete was made for VNF subs (and BKs as well, but that's another story).
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I just feel that the VNFs bring it in ways where ALL other TR components fall short (not that they don't kick ass in their own way too, they do). And that is bring on a certain feel of bass violence beyond just the TR/shake part of it, if turned up enough and mixed in with the FFs and NFs well (and just FYI, NF is NOT VNF (1-3" away) IME, no where near the same actually). VNFs do have their shortcomings for sure compared to NF or FF though and fullness and sound is one of them, like I think you've already realized and discussed some before. But, what it does do, it does so damn well and NF or FF can't even begin to match it. So one just has to be smart enough and or realize at some point, that VNF is probably not going to work all by itself or the bass experience is still gonna feel lopsided in a way and fall short. Like WAY too much feel without enough fullness and sound of bass (sounds too thin, and can even feel too thin in ways), where NF and or FF is needed to make up this difference and where they excel IME. So, best of both worlds type of thing by running FF and or NF in addition to the VNFs. This just has to be messed with enough to find the right balance for ones tastes, and could vary a lot depending on many factors, starting with FR of the VNF as well as seating type, if reclined and at what angle, or not reclined at all. It all can have a huge effect on just how much you feel from the VNF. Also non localization with VNfs is important too and needs to be delt with (there are ways) if it becomes a problem.
But once this is worked out, IMO and E it can be amazing and its something I never want to be without. Not even with Crowson MAs or BK LFEs or even a BOSS in the mix. Or even with all three of those combined in place of VNF. They all have their place and play a vital roll IMHO.
IME over the years, VNF just brings it in a way that MAs, BKs or even the BOSS alone cant replicate. And that is, in addition to the TR/shake, the aggressive impact that is brought on by PV (particle velocity) from a driver and or port (if ported) being positioned so close behind you. I'm in love with that feeling and just does it for me big time. That is, if I have things dialed in well and where they need to be to get the most out of it without being distracting. There is a trick to it I think and depends on a lot of factors that I mentioned up above. But once you can tap into that with the VNFs, I wouldn't trade it for the MAs, BKs or BOSS if I had to make a choice. But, I'm so glad I don't have too, because these bring it in ways that's hard for the VNFs to do as well. That said, I do still prefer my VNFs TR across the bass frequencies more than all these other TR devices in a lot of ways, including deep into the ULF frequencies to 10hz and a little below (with an LS'd capable sealed sub anyway). It just feels a little more natural, fuller and realistic to me (at least in my system) and is why I run them as hard as I reasonably can in my system. I just love what they can do and are capable of and have felt this way all these years now.
That said though, I LOVE all these other TR components too!! All of them ...MAs, BKs and most recently the BOSS. Damn, they are so good in their own way, and the BOSS seems to be a combo of them in a great kind of way, which is way cool!! Even though none of them can actually bring the impact from PV from a sub close behind (although they can trick you into making you believe they can), they are awesome and combine amazingly well with the VNF subs, making it feel like your bass is just off the chain insane in ways the subs (even when right behind you) cant seem to do by themselves to the same degree. So for me, it always comes back to needing/wanting them ALL working together as one as an unstoppable synergistic force that can truly transform the overall HT bass experience on these movie soundtracks. At least it does for me and wouldn't be possible without all of them contributing in their own special way.
So, I know that was a long answer and may sound a bit over the top and maybe even crazy in ways, but it's how I feel about it and the only way I know how to explain it. Hopefully that all at least made some sense and answers your questions about it.
Tim, sorry to turn this into such big VNF post in your BOSS thread, but felt I needed to say why I felt the way I do about it in comparison with the BOSS and other TR devices with the question that was asked.
Nothing wrong with FF only and BOSS at all, it can and does kick ass in a lot of ways, I just prefer the VNFs in the mix as well and have felt this way for years with tons of experimenting. I know Tim and even a few others I think, don't share my thoughts on this and that's fine, we all prefer and experience things differently, as well as how we go about integrating and setting things up differently. That's cool, we cant all feel and like the exact same things.
Thx. BTW, this FR is after room correction but yeah Main+S dialed in nicely. Honestly, you won't be saving a lot of height. I ended up being 4.75" inches higher all together with Mini Riser. With 4 sheets + ISO + another small .5" sheet under ISO got me to 4.75". YMMV as it depends on how much of clearance you'd need based on the seats you have. But, sitting 4.75" higher puts my eye sight just about 5" higher. Based on my calculation, my eyes are 42" above the ground and the screen center is 37.5 above the ground. This means that I'm 4.5" higher than the center point of screen (2.35 Aspect Ratio). So far I'm liking the effect of being higher than the center of screen. If you think about it, most of movie scenes have camera spanning from top to bottom instead of bottom to top. Being higher makes me feel like I'm almost jumping inside the screen. Feet do kinda get in the way but not so much.
Good point here and cool to hear your liking being a little higher!!
Also, about your question if most are running the BOSS inverted. I think most are and Aron gave a great answer to why. I know I am running it inverted phase and makes a HUGE difference. Night a day diff in the way the BOSS combines with the subs TR. Not inverted cancels out the TR big time, especially down low in the ULF range, but inverted combines great and feels like it should.
Without the subs on, I didn't think the BOSS on its own felt a whole lot different. Better inverted vs not inverted, but still not a huge diff. YMMV on this last one without the subs on and BOSS only though.