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post #1711 of 3235 Old 04-21-2019, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
The Crowsons are rock hard though, right? So if/when they touch the ground, the platform won't be "floating" anymore. Might be an issue. Just a thought.
Michael

It’s a double platform build with the Crowsons between two layers, so it is all decoupled from the floor. The MA’s go under the smaller platform in this pic.

Underside of both layers.
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post #1712 of 3235 Old 04-21-2019, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
It’s a double platform build with the Crowsons between two layers, so it is all decoupled from the floor. The MA’s go under the smaller platform in this pic.

Underside of both layers.
Now that is an interesting platform!

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post #1713 of 3235 Old 04-21-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
It’s a double platform build with the Crowsons between two layers, so it is all decoupled from the floor. The MA’s go under the smaller platform in this pic.

Underside of both layers.
Does the MA platform rest under a big couch? I will be building a BOSS sometime soon, and I plan on using my Crowsons as well. But, I have 3 recliners. So, I was just going to set them up as they are now, with the possible exception of adding the ISOs under the seats.

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post #1714 of 3235 Old 04-21-2019, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
Does the MA platform rest under a big couch? I will be building a BOSS sometime soon, and I plan on using my Crowsons as well. But, I have 3 recliners. So, I was just going to set them up as they are now, with the possible exception of adding the ISOs under the seats.

Mine is just a two seat but you could build one bigger. Luckily I already had the smaller platform under my couch so was easy to modify that one. Just cut it to the size of your frame. Mine had lots of extra holes to bolt into so also made it simple. If you don’t have MA’s definitely makes it a lot easier to build just a single platform for the BOSS.


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post #1715 of 3235 Old 04-21-2019, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^^^^ @Sekosche Just finished getting up to speed on your build after being away for a couple of days. That's an impressive BOSS platform! Can't wait to hear your impressions.

If it's not too late and you haven't installed any chairs on the platform yet.....I would recommend removing the 2 Crowson isolators on each side. The reason being, once those harder Crowson isos make contact with the floor you will lose TR because the platform won't be floating anymore.

Basically, the platform freedom of movement is constrained by any one isolator that is the hardest.....in this case it will be the Crowsons. Having the same isolators underneath the platform will result in predictable, smooth and linear motion of the platform which is what you want with your BOSS platform.

Other members who have mixed isolator types ended up using all the same for this reason....Chris Young is one example that comes to mind when he tried mixing the Hudson's and the Buttkicker isos underneath his BOSS platform.

Hope this helps.
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post #1716 of 3235 Old 04-21-2019, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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It's almost all gone now. You probably don't have this problem in Louisiana!
Now that would be pretty cool if it was a white Easter today....Hoping the snow goes away for you this spring so you don't have to keep clearing a patch for wood working. It's always a real treat when it does snow down here, but it's totally different when you have to live with it for weeks and months on end....used to live in the midwest and with no sun and snow that never melted, it was rather gloomy at times.

Hoping for more sunny days and less snow for you up there!
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post #1717 of 3235 Old 04-21-2019, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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It won't surprise me if I try out some clips from Venom tomorrow and prefer a different LPF/slope. The biggest variable when finding settings I like is... mood.
LOL....so true about mood effecting ones preference for settings! If I'm gonna rock out to some music or watch a good action film, I'm expecting to be thrown out of the seat. Otherwise, I'll just adjust the MV down to get the right TR. Interesting about the different LPF's and different preferences. Fortunately, for us, our 30 year old cloth couch pieces and reclining seats seem about right for our 80Hz LPF....lol.
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post #1718 of 3235 Old 04-21-2019, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
^^^^^^ @Sekosche Just finished getting up to speed on your build after being away for a couple of days. That's an impressive BOSS platform! Can't wait to hear your impressions.



If it's not too late and you haven't installed any chairs on the platform yet.....I would recommend removing the 2 Crowson isolators on each side. The reason being, once those harder Crowson isos make contact with the floor you will lose TR because the platform won't be floating anymore.



Basically, the platform freedom of movement is constrained by any one isolator that is the hardest.....in this case it will be the Crowsons. Having the same isolators underneath the platform will result in predictable, smooth and linear motion of the platform which is what you want with your BOSS platform.



Other members who have mixed isolator types ended up using all the same for this reason....Chris Young is one example that comes to mind when he tried mixing the Hudson's and the Buttkicker isos underneath his BOSS platform.



Hope this helps.


He already has. If you look at the other pics he posted he has removed the Crowson Isolators. Now, I can’t say if they’re not between the two structures.


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post #1719 of 3235 Old 04-21-2019, 02:01 PM
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I was able to do some more testing with my BOSS platform. One thing that is really impressive is how much my BOSS platform shakes from just my near-field S2’s. The S2’s shake the platform almost as much as when the 3 JBL’s are running. The S2’s are 2 inches behind the BOSS platform. When everything is hooked up it is very intense! They work well even with all other subs turned off. It was a very worthwhile endeavor. I plan on settling another one up for my second couch. Already ordered the drivers.
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post #1720 of 3235 Old 04-21-2019, 03:23 PM
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I got a very brief demo in after setting it up, and I can see how these imitate nearfield subs and make them a little less necessary. I get the TR in the seating that replicates nearfield and some SPL too, however little it might be it still sounds like there’s subs in the couch surrounding you which is awesome...I guess technically there is. The BOSS definitely doesn’t replicate the chest punch my nearfields do, but I wouldn’t expect it to.

I watched Fury and 13 Hours for a couple scenes and all without the Crowsons, two nearfield subs, and the 18” Marty cube turned on; so with only the front two subs on, I was very impressed. Played a half dozen ULF songs and equally impressive. They don’t dig down as deep with as much authority as Crowsons, but the effect is still noticeable.

Went with a 35Hz LPF for now, but it is a very natural feeling as many have mentioned and very impressive so far for what little I’ve heard. Need to fully recalibrate and tune them to taste. I’m only running 250 watts across all 3, and I bet they could take a lot more. I can see how clearance could become an issue at max excursion if not on hard floors, and it’s a bit difficult to tell how much movement they’re hitting other than trying to look at the top of the driver from above.

Having finished it all, I could have easily fit 6 drivers, but I don’t think that’s necessary, so glad I went with just three to keep it simple. Will be tweaking in my little spare time in the coming weeks. Overall, it was a great weekend build for such a return on the investment.

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Great! Something else I have to learn...
Fortunately there's not too much to learn, especially if you're already using a miniDSP. It's pretty easy to get going and do it for each movie thanks to the work Aron, d00d, and myself have done. Check out the first couple of posts in the thread on the basics of it and getting started. Then make sure to read the last couple of pages about BEQDesigner's new merge feature that was put out on Friday. Ask away in that thread if you have any questions or need anything clarified.
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post #1722 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 06:06 AM
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The Hideaway Theater

Has anyone tried shallow mount subwoofer drivers mounted directly to the theater chair with the rubber feet rather than the Platform? I could make the platforms, but I’m not sure there is much advantage for what I could do with direct mount on my specific reclining theater chairs. The typical 12” JBLs will be too deep to let the reclining mechanism slide by. (As were my Infinity Perfect 10.1s I mocked up.)

So, I’m pondering these: (there is a 10% off coupon too)

10"
https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...-DVC-Subs.html

or 12
https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...oice-Coil.html

or this:
https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...k-EW-124S.html

Really I'm not glued to a particular driver at all, just shallow mounting depth, and > excursion? being of highest criteria? for this concept.

For this...














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post #1723 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 06:37 AM
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Or you could take out the springs and just sit on the back of that driver.

Someone will need to model those drivers and see if it will produce enough movement to work. They're not very sensitive, so you'll need some power.
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They don't show the MMS, the middle was has a lower fs so I'd hazard a guess that is the highest MMS of the 3.

Since your doing 1 per chair I would want to put emphasis on MMS, getting the isos doing their thing. I think this is uncharted territory but knowing who you are, proceed. You've been on carps so you have something to compare. Only issue may be it rattling the chair frame itself too much compared to a platform
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post #1725 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 07:32 AM
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After less than an hour playing with the BOSS, I’m thoroughly impressed with its capabilities and actually shocked how well it performs against a pair of Crowsons and nearfield subs, which is a huge complement. Just absurd amounts of very natural feeling TR from this thing! Still a lot of demos to go, but so far it’s surpassed all my expectations.

I can’t wait to watch some BEQ movies when I get some time off next week. If I were a bass critic, I’d give the BOSS two punches to the kidneys and four stars!

Thanks for the inspiration those of you that continue to tinker and push the limits of what’s possible, and the fact that it’s done on such a small budget is just icing on the bass.
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post #1726 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 07:45 AM
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Got 5 pair of the ISO’s ordered. The drivers and other misc stuff on the way. As well as a 6k to drive my Crowsons vs the 3k they’re running off now. Should be a fun May


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post #1727 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Has anyone tried shallow mount subwoofer drivers mounted directly to the theater chair with the rubber feet rather than the Platform? I could make the platforms, but I’m not sure there is much advantage for what I could do with direct mount on my specific reclining theater chairs. The typical 12” JBLs will be too deep to let the reclining mechanism slide by. (As were my Infinity Perfect 10.1s I mocked up.)

So, I’m pondering these: (there is a 10% off coupon too)

10"
https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...-DVC-Subs.html

or 12
https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...oice-Coil.html

or this:
https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...k-EW-124S.html

Really I'm not glued to a particular driver at all, just shallow mounting depth, and > excursion? being of highest criteria? for this concept.
Archaea......the 12" Pioneer shallow mount TS-SW3002S4 driver modeled well earlier in this thread.....below is that post for easy reference. Its mounting depth is 3 7/16". Below is a link to Amazon for this driver.

Not sure about the MB Quart drivers....I couldn't find enough info readily for any modeling. If Xmax and MMS is available for any of the MB Quart drivers, I could model accordingly.

Amazon link for TS-SW3002S4:

https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-TSSW3.../dp/B015CH8R2S

Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
@enricoclaudio Here's the 12" low profile Pioneer.....the green curve. Blue is the 12" JBL and Red is the 10" Pioneer.

The 12" Pioneer reached Xmax of 8.8mm with 45 watts and the FR response looks similar to the JBL.

With the 36% more mass and 41% less excursion, it will probably be about the same as the 12" JBL without any DSP.

Just keep the power in control so you don't bottom it.

The 3000D should power 3 just fine.

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post #1728 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
Got 5 pair of the ISO’s ordered.
Great. Now they'll be out of stock again in no time.


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post #1729 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Archaea......the 12" Pioneer shallow mount TS-SW3002S4 driver modeled well earlier in this thread.....below is that post for easy reference. Its mounting depth is 3 7/16". Below is a link to Amazon for this driver.

Not sure about the MB Quart drivers....I couldn't find enough info readily for any modeling. If Xmax and MMS is available for any of the MB Quart drivers, I could model accordingly.

Amazon link for TS-SW3002S4:

https://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-TSSW3.../dp/B015CH8R2S

Here are the specs for the MBQuart 12" low profile driver.
https://mbquart.com/media/mconnect_u...guide_rev2.pdf

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Last edited by Archaea; 04-22-2019 at 08:21 AM.
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post #1730 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 08:06 AM
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Btw, running 150 watts per driver and haven’t bottomed them out yet with the limiter kicking in quite a few times during the Hulk street fight scene; I thought my couch was going to come off the ground it hit so hard!
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post #1731 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
After less than an hour playing with the BOSS, I’m thoroughly impressed with its capabilities and actually shocked how well it performs against a pair of Crowsons and nearfield subs, which is a huge complement. Just absurd amounts of very natural feeling TR from this thing! Still a lot of demos to go, but so far it’s surpassed all my expectations.

I can’t wait to watch some BEQ movies when I get some time off next week. If I were a bass critic, I’d give the BOSS two punches to the kidneys and four stars!

Thanks for the inspiration those of you that continue to tinker and push the limits of what’s possible, and the fact that it’s done on such a small budget is just icing on the bass.
Sekosche.....Thanks for the update.....so glad to hear you're getting everything dialed in....like a BOSS!

Been thinking of putting some testimonials in the first post.....but, not sure at this point. Seems like the BOSS is getting built regardless so testimonials probably aren't needed.......probably due to such a low cost and build simplicity

I've found BEQ is great for late-night viewing while keeping volume levels around -25 to -30 dB and still getting full ULF and TR from the source material. It's good for reference listening also, but I've found the BOSS without BEQ does great once the volume level starts to exceed -10 dB MV or so. Maybe that's due to the THX Loudness Plus DEQ that I'm using also as part of my AVR processing.

Will be curious of your impressions with and without BEQ at different MV levels.
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post #1732 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 08:34 AM
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Damn it! Snowing again. Screw it - time to build my subwoofer boxes!

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post #1733 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 08:47 AM
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@trhought , do you mind modeling the MBQuart DS1-304 against the JBL you guys are using as a sanity check. I pulled up WinISD, but I must have entered something wrong somewhere. I put the sealed box to 1000 liters to simulate infinite baffle and I'm seeing that max excursion is exceeded at 4 watts. That's not right... If it looks okay/somewhat similar to the JBL - I'll just order a quad set of those MB Quart today to play with. If it models poorly then I'll model some more drivers, or consider that Pioneer 12 you mention for $30 more a driver.

What size box are you guys using for these sims since infinite baffle doesn't seem to be an option in WinISD, also I got asked my Equal Ripple Response (options are .8, .9, 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.5) in WinISD. I don't know what to put there for an apples to apples comparison.
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #1734 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 09:32 AM
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Sorry for the likely repetitive question but what terminal size do the JBL speakers use? Never built speakers so not sure if this is a standard size for all speakers or not

Thanks
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post #1735 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
@trhought , do you mind modeling the MBQuart DS1-304 against the JBL you guys are using as a sanity check. I pulled up WinISD, but I must have entered something wrong somewhere. I put the sealed box to 1000 liters to simulate infinite baffle and I'm seeing that max excursion is exceeded at 4 watts. That's not right... If it looks okay/somewhat similar to the JBL - I'll just order a quad set of those MB Quart today to play with. If it models poorly then I'll model some more drivers, or consider that Pioneer 12 you mention for $30 more a driver.

What size box are you guys using for these sims since infinite baffle doesn't seem to be an option in WinISD, also I got asked my Equal Ripple Response (options are .8, .9, 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.5) in WinISD. I don't know what to put there for an apples to apples comparison.
Archaea.....Thanks....below is the WinISD model when using the T/S parameters you provided. This is the excursion vs. frequency plot. Red is the MBQuart and Blue is the JBL. The MBQuart reaches Xmax of 9mm with ~20 watts of power while the JBL takes about 80 watts. It's MMS is 86% of the JBL while Xmax is 60% of the JBL. The JBL has a published Xmax of 12mm but it's Xmech has been tested to 15mm. If the Xmech of the MBQuart is higher than 9mm that will certainly help. It's moving mass is close enough.

Hope this helps.

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post #1736 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 03:25 PM
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I found the Pioneer TS-SW3002S4 new for $59 on ebay, so basically the same price. (8% off coupon right now too)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-TS-...QAAOSwevtcuGm3

However,

The QTS is higher on the MB Quart is .696 (.7 and above is generally considered okay for infinite baffle application) (= good for this application), and the FS is lower on the MB Quart which is seemingly better in this application too. The mounting depth on the MBQuart is 3.07 vs. 3.4 - so it's a little shallower too which is good for my application. The Pioneer takes twice the power in modeling at 10hz, but that's largely inconsequential if the excursion limits are roughly the same. I'd just set the iNuke voltage limiter a bit lower on the MB Quart. The Pioneer has a little stronger motor structure, and a heck of a lot more moving mass -- which @Gorilla Killa stated to be of high importance. The Pioneer appear to be a completely enclosed basket, which might be nice the thwart any unwelcome fall season house mice.

I've been out of the car audio subwoofer game long enough I don't know who has a better reputation these days, or more importantly the potentially more honest/accurate specifications (Pioneer or MB Quart). Back in the day I thought MB Quart was a higher end brand, but that's 20 years ago since my car audio days, and I don't know if that still holds any truth.
hmmmm, is this half dozen of one and 6 of the other? Or is there a real victor here for this one off, in chair application. I'm not looking for any sound, just more of the low end shake - like @carp showed me on his BOSS platforms that were good down to 3-4Hz with plenty of it. That's hard to feel on a basement concrete slab absent very high SPL, and even then - simply not as much felt as Sheldon's BOSS platform. I'll probably put a steep ~30hz LPF on this setup. I don't like higher frequency vibration if my previous experience with more traditional tactile transducers, and near field subs is of any relevance.

For those of you who aren't familiar with the subwoofer driver parameters, or just needed a refresher on a few of the acronyms, these links are helpful.
https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/t...ers.asp#_index
and post 6 of this thread - https://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/bo...omment-2193306

I could potentially buy one of each to compare, before buying the other three I suppose.



There's also a relatively inexpensive Infinity shallow subwoofer driver for ~$75, but while the Fs is lower than the MB Quart or Pioneer, the
BL is too, and so it doesn't appear to be as suited for infinite baffle, and probably not a good choice over the cheaper MB Quart or JBL - assuming all specs are reasonably accurate. Most of the other name brand shallow subwoofer driver options quickly approach >$100 per driver and so make an inexpensive impulse purchase project -- less of one...
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 04-22-2019 at 03:50 PM.
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post #1737 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 04:21 PM
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Great. Now they'll be out of stock again in no time.
Sure enough. I ordered four more. Expected to ship first week in May.

Michael

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post #1738 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 04:55 PM
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Also got these to put under the isos:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Michael

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post #1739 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 05:02 PM
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Sure enough. I ordered four more. Expected to ship first week in May.

Michael
I was able to get a set before they were backordered
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post #1740 of 3235 Old 04-22-2019, 05:30 PM
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Ib's dont need a strong motor, there isnt a box spring and generally have a soft suspension. Cms of 275 is pretty compliant. I think mms and xmax both matter for the Boss, I would put less emphasis on Fs. Anything with a qts of .50 will work in a Ib/sealed.

Tough to say which would be better, I would think they would be more similar than not performance wise. The infinity is probably closest performance wise to the jbl, weaker motor but softer suspension even that out and same mms and qts. The mb quart appears to be dvc 4 ohm.

Narrowing to 2 Id go Pio and Infinity

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