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post #2311 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
Has anybody considered one of Fi’s IB offerings. Since they’re built specifically for IB use I wonder how’d they perform in a BOSS riser?

Looks like the 12” has a similar cutout. With it’s more powerful motor I’m curious if it would be an upgrade over the JBL?
@trhought could you possibly model it?

https://ficaraudio.com/product/ib3-series-ib312-v2/
Rowan611....great question....especially in light of other members looking for alternate drivers to explore the limits of BOSS performance using drivers other than the JBL's.

Below is a technical summary of the Fi IB 12 inch sub in comparison to the JBL baseline.

The Fi has 2.3x the excursion (34mm vs. 15mm) and 1.4x the moving mass (249g vs. 179g) for a shaker potential of 3.2x more than the JBL. So, theoretically one Fi could replace 3 JBL's when ignoring real-world losses (platform bending losses, speaker suspension losses, BOSS suspension losses, furniture losses, etc.)

As far as the frequency response, the 2 different drivers behave about the same. Below is the WinISD model for comparison....Red is Fi, Blue is JBL

Both drivers are "peaky" around 20Hz and start to roll off above 40Hz while flattening at 10Hz.

The Fi will take about 600 watts each to reach Xmax while the JBL will take about 80 watts each to reach Xmax....so the Fi will take about 2.5x more power assuming 1 Fi can replace 3 JBL's.

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post #2312 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
We have to be careful when comparing VS measurements with others as the weigh used on top of the phone makes a big difference in measurement results. I know Sbuger recommends and has been using 5lbs rice bag but I am not certain what Sekosche and others use. We also need to know at what bass levels were the measurements taken? Reference bass, less than reference or above reference bass? These will contribute to the VS measurement results.
Yeah the weight used can have an effect on your VS readings intensity levels, or at least it used to on my couch that I used to use in my other setup. You want to keep the phone from bouncing at all up off the seat cushion. This can start happening pretty easy when TR levels really start getting up there in level.

I've actually been using 4lb lately, as my 5 pound bag got super sticky and just yuk, but we had a 4 lb in the pantry that seems to be working pretty good. Also, Yeah I always try to take my readings at ref bass levels to keep it consistent.

Also, I used to run EOT all the time back in the VS days when that thread was going strong and I just kind of got away from running it and mainly use White Noise 0-50hz now for tweaking and seeing overall TR response (its pretty accurate from about 10-30hz). Sweeps are good too, but I haven't ran any of those yet. Nalleh really seems to like the sweeps and has been using those. I kind of got away from running EOT intro because it's just so brutal around ref levels and always seems like it's gonna unnecessarily tear something up gear wise (the house too LOL). That intro really is about as brutal as it gets with those square tones recorded super high in the mix (close to -5dbfs signal levels on the PVA graph of it).

I may run it again, but just haven't really had the desire to do it lately like I used to. It is a good one though to show your power in all those main 5 frequencies as it drops lower and lower to 10hz.

Also, @BryceDH - your TR levels look killer! Your 10hz is lacking compared to 15hz and above, but still great. And BTW - you are above 1e-01 with how most of us are taking the measurements now. We've all been using m^2/Hz instead of g^2/Hz. Its about a 20db diff and is the default setting of VS. That puts you right at about 1e+00 from at 30hz, 25hz, 20, and 15hz and then 10hz a little below 1e-01. Awesome dude!!!

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post #2313 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 09:23 AM
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I looked at a lot of different drivers before i started, and there are definitely drivers more suited to this application than the JBL and even the Dayton - the bottleneck for me was driver height and backplate diameter due to the mechanicals of my recliners. If your seating allows you to fit a large 18” with heavy moving mass, high excursion, low fs and high vas, then that’s the driver to get!
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post #2314 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Rowan611....great question....especially in light of other members looking for alternate drivers to explore the limits of BOSS performance using drivers other than the JBL's.



Below is a technical summary of the Fi IB 12 inch sub in comparison to the JBL baseline.



The Fi has 2.3x the excursion (34mm vs. 15mm) and 1.4x the moving mass (249g vs. 179g) for a shaker potential of 3.2x more than the JBL. So, theoretically one Fi could replace 3 JBL's when ignoring real-world losses (platform bending losses, speaker suspension losses, BOSS suspension losses, furniture losses, etc.)



As far as the frequency response, the 2 different drivers behave about the same. Below is the WinISD model for comparison....Red is Fi, Blue is JBL



Both drivers are "peaky" around 20Hz and start to roll off above 40Hz while flattening at 10Hz.



The Fi will take about 600 watts each to reach Xmax while the JBL will take about 80 watts each to reach Xmax....so the Fi will take about 2.5x more power assuming 1 Fi can replace 3 JBL's.





Thank you!! I suspect it wouldn’t take all 600 to become uncomfortable. Lol. Might be worth it for me if I can’t get the three platforms to connect well.


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post #2315 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Yeah the weight used can have an effect on your VS readings intensity levels, or at least it used to on my couch that I used to use in my other setup. You want to keep the phone from bouncing at all up off the seat cushion. This can start happening pretty easy when TR levels really start getting up there in level.



I've actually been using 4lb lately, as my 5 pound bag got super sticky and just yuk, but we had a 4 lb in the pantry that seems to be working pretty good. Also, Yeah I always try to take my readings at ref bass levels to keep it consistent.



Also, I used to run EOT all the time back in the VS days when that thread was going strong and I just kind of got away from running it and mainly use White Noise 0-50hz now for tweaking and seeing overall TR response (its pretty accurate from about 10-30hz). Sweeps are good too, but I haven't ran any of those yet. Nalleh really seems to like the sweeps and has been using those. I kind of got away from running EOT intro because it's just so brutal around ref levels and always seems like it's gonna unnecessarily tear something up gear wise (the house too LOL). That intro really is about as brutal as it gets with those square tones recorded super high in the mix (close to -5dbfs signal levels on the PVA graph of it).



I may run it again, but just haven't really had the desire to do it lately like I used to. It is a good one though to show your power in all those main 5 frequencies as it drops lower and lower to 10hz.



Also, @BryceDH - your TR levels look killer! Your 10hz is lacking compared to 15hz and above, but still great. And BTW - you are above 1e-01 with how most of us are taking the measurements now. We've all been using m^2/Hz instead of g^2/Hz. Its about a 20db diff and is the default setting of VS. That puts you right at about 1e+00 from at 30hz, 25hz, 20, and 15hz and then 10hz a little below 1e-01. Awesome dude!!!
Lots of great info... thank you! I didnt notice the difference between my graph being g and m^2 on some other's graphs. I've been using a large bag of chocolate chips to weigh my phone down. Lol It felt about right. My subs are running about 10dB hot and I listen to movies at 10 below reference so the BOSS should be playing right at reference level. I'll tinker around some more and jump over to the VS thread if any questions come up to keep from cluttering up this thread. Thanks for the encouragement on the readings! Maybe when I add these 2 other drivers they can help with the 10hz and I'll just have some headroom in the bank at the other frequencies and not have to drive the 2 I'm running right now as hard.

My measurements were BOSS only, so they may get a little help from nearfield subs when I'm actually watching movies. The BOSS has got to be the most significant bass upgrade I've made (most noticable). Its awesome hearing from everybody that has adopted it.

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post #2316 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
there are definitely drivers more suited to this application than the JBL
This whole process started because the JBL was $30.
It evolved from there, as these things tend to do.
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #2317 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 02:27 PM
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I have a request to add a list of amplifiers, that fit with the theme of low cost solutions, to work with the low cost subs list? I know that the behringer offerings are popular but would something like this work and not use a dsp at all?



https://www.amazon.com/TDA7498E-Audi...PFC34P6RWDQNTP
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post #2318 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith Ferguson View Post
I have a request to add a list of amplifiers, that fit with the theme of low cost solutions, to work with the low cost subs list? I know that the behringer offerings are popular but would something like this work and not use a dsp at all?



https://www.amazon.com/TDA7498E-Audi...PFC34P6RWDQNTP
I dont see why it wouldn't work - I went with this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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post #2319 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
Thank you!! I suspect it wouldn’t take all 600 to become uncomfortable. Lol. Might be worth it for me if I can’t get the three platforms to connect well.
Rowan611.....great point....I keep forgetting you have 3 separate platforms. The Fi IB 12 power can be reduced to 120 watts and provide about the same excursion as the JBL......at this equal excursion it's shaker potential would be 1.39x the JBL since it's moving mass is 39% more. And, with equal power, it's excursion is about 20% lower than the JBL, so it's shaker potential is about the same (lower excursion offset by higher mass).

Below are the WinISD models (red is Fi and blue is JBL).....The first graph is the equal excursion plot....the Fi at 120 watts and the JBL at 80 watts. The second graph is the equal power graph....both drivers at 80 watts.

So, for your single chair BOSS platform with only 1 12" driver, the Fi would allow you to dial up the TR if desired. For example, at 80 watts, the Fi would provide the same shaker potential as 1 JBL. But, at the full 600 watts for the Fi, with it's larger Xmax, it's shaker potential would be 3.16x more than 1 JBL.

So, while not as efficient as the JBL's when comparing power to shaker potential, the 1 Fi in a 1-driver platform would allow the TR to be dialed up to an equivalent of 3 JBL's using 250% more power than 3 JBL's.

With power being so cheap and the Fi 12" only being slightly taller, having the ability to dial in TR and have some headroom on tap may be beneficial to some members, especially those with smaller single driver platforms.

If one doesn't mind the extra cost for the driver ($244 ea. vs $29 ea for the JBL) and extra cost for the amplifier and you can spare another extra .5" for the added height, the Fi may be a better choice on paper. As for the extra TR and how much it's worth.....I think that's probably a personal preference and mileage will vary from one individual to another as cost vs. benefits are weighed.



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post #2320 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 02:38 PM
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Height isn’t an issue as I’m running a cantilever design. I’m using a NX3kD; so I can give it about 450 watts in 4ohm. I know the 3K can run 2ohm also. So, I think I could get a lot more TR out of it.

I’ve got what I need to combine the platforms. Going to try that first.

If I run the drivers in Series, for a 12ohm load. How can I calculate the power to make sure each gets roughly 80-100 watts? I know I read it somewhere in this thread...but I’m on my phone and that’s a huge pain.

Thanks again @trhought


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post #2321 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Ferguson View Post
I have a request to add a list of amplifiers, that fit with the theme of low cost solutions, to work with the low cost subs list? I know that the behringer offerings are popular but would something like this work and not use a dsp at all?



https://www.amazon.com/TDA7498E-Audi...PFC34P6RWDQNTP
Hey Keith....good question. As long as you're using the JBL's as prescribed, all you need is 80 watts rms per driver. So, for that amp, you would need to know if the published power is rms power or peak power. My guess is peak power which means about ~113 watts rms per channel. So, that would be enough for a 2 JBL BOSS....one driver per channel.

It really depends on how many drivers you plan to have with your BOSS and how much each one requires (JBL's need 80 watts per driver, while the Dayton 15" only needs 20 watts per driver). Then it's just a matter of finding an amplifier that will deliver the power for your needs at the lowest cost. If you only have a 2 driver platform and don't need any DSP, then that amp or the one dgrizzard is using will work OK and at a very affordable price!

As a reference point, I'm only using 80 watts rms for each of my 6 JBL's without any DSP and we thoroughly enjoy both of our 3 JBL BOSS platforms in both rows of our theater. Even our 3rd row bar table and leg rests get ample TR for guests sitting back there on bar stools with their feet resting on the back row BOSS platform and their elbows resting on the bar table which is on top of the back row BOSS platform
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post #2322 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 03:00 PM
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Do you guys like literally bouncing up and down 1/2" or more on regular occasion or is this for occasional novelty? @SBuger , and similar setups - I don't think I can even imagine. I had to tell carp to turn his stuff down because it was so ridiculous.

I'm backtracking a bit right now on my one off setup. I've been playing with my chair mount MBQuartz 12" for the last few days more, and it's fun, and novelty, but anything more than the very lowest levels of shake and I find it too much for extended listening sessions. I want, subjectively/personally, a realistic level of bass felt, and not amusement park ride. It's fun to cut it loss for a few seconds on a wild setting, but I don't want it left there very long.

I do realize enthusiasts come in all forms, but rarely am I accused of being a bass lightweight.

I bought a 4'x4' piece of 3/4" plywood today to directly compare the proper BOSS platform as originally laid out, vs. my direct chair mount -- both with the shallow mount 12" MB Quart.

Whichever I like more, I'll implement x4. (to this point I've only installed it on one chair).

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post #2323 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Ferguson View Post
I have a request to add a list of amplifiers, that fit with the theme of low cost solutions, to work with the low cost subs list? I know that the behringer offerings are popular but would something like this work and not use a dsp at all?



https://www.amazon.com/TDA7498E-Audi...PFC34P6RWDQNTP
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgrizzard View Post
I dont see why it wouldn't work - I went with this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Don't cheap out on no DSP. The DSP is pretty integral to getting the exact feel you want.
I've played with it for hours, and I don't even like the feel without DSP.
Not to mention the voltage limiting you can do with the iNuke or NX series amps. You will need that if you don't want to bottom out your driver. I've played with limiting at 8 and 20 watts - and when it hit those thresholds it just stops applying power - meaning I can still increase my Main listeing volume without working about overdriving my driver. Setting shelf filters is huge with this too, That stuff is as invaluable to the experience as are the 20 duro isolator feet IMO.

My advice - skip those amps, buy the behringer inuke or NX series. At least use MiniDSP or equivalent if you don't use one of the behringers. The only thing you'd then lack is the voltage limiting.
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post #2324 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
Height isn’t an issue as I’m running a cantilever design. I’m using a NX3kD; so I can give it about 450 watts in 4ohm. I know the 3K can run 2ohm also. So, I think I could get a lot more TR out of it.

I’ve got what I need to combine the platforms. Going to try that first.

If I run the drivers in Series, for a 12ohm load. How can I calculate the power to make sure each gets roughly 80-100 watts? I know I read it somewhere in this thread...but I’m on my phone and that’s a huge pain.

Thanks again @trhought
Hey Rowan, no problems....as impedance increases power will go down proportionally. So, a 12 ohm load will reduce power by 66% (4 ohms divided by 12 ohms)....so, your 450 watts into 4 ohms example above would be 150 watts into 12 ohms divided by the 3 drivers would be 50 watts per driver.

Not much power per driver, but since you have room for larger drivers, if you choose the Dayton 15" drivers like Steve Callas is using, that would be enough power for 3 of those drivers I would think based on WinISD modeling. WinISD predicts Xmax is reached with only 20 watts for that driver but Steve Callas is reporting they can withstand more power....not sure how much more power. If we had Xmech for the Dayton 15" we could probably predict how much power would be ideal for a BOSS application but my guess is 50 watts per driver would be adequate. Hope this feedback didn't create more confusion.
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post #2325 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Hey Rowan, no problems....as impedance increases power will go down proportionally. So, a 12 ohm load will reduce power by 66% (4 ohms divided by 12 ohms)....so, your 450 watts into 4 ohms example above would be 150 watts into 12 ohms divided by the 3 drivers would be 50 watts per driver.



Not much power per driver, but since you have room for larger drivers, if you choose the Dayton 15" drivers like Steve Callas is using, that would be enough power for 3 of those drivers I would think based on WinISD modeling. WinISD predicts Xmax is reached with only 20 watts for that driver but Steve Callas is reporting they can withstand more power....not sure how much more power. If we had Xmech for the Dayton 15" we could probably predict how much power would be ideal for a BOSS application but my guess is 50 watts per driver would be adequate. Hope this feedback didn't create more confusion.


Thanks again!


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Don't cheap out on no DSP. The DSP is pretty integral to getting the exact feel you want.
I've played with it for hours, and I don't even like the feel without DSP.
Not to mention the voltage limiting you can do with the iNuke or NX series amps. You will need that if you don't want to bottom out your driver. I've played with limiting at 8 and 20 watts - and when it hit those thresholds it just stops applying power - meaning I can still increase my Main listeing volume without working about overdriving my driver. Setting shelf filters is huge with this too, That stuff is as invaluable to the experience as are the 20 duro isolator feet IMO.

My advice - skip those amps, buy the behringer inuke or NX series. At least use MiniDSP or equivalent if you don't use one of the behringers. The only thing you'd then lack is the voltage limiting.
Yes, I went with the cheap amp because I do have MiniDSP 2x4HD. I would almost list that as a requirement just based on BEQ.
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post #2327 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Do you guys like literally bouncing up and down 1/2" or more on regular occasion or is this for occasional novelty? @SBuger , and similar setups - I don't think I can even imagine. I had to tell carp to turn his stuff down because it was so ridiculous.
The 20-30hz shudder can be overwhelming. Ive dialed most of that out for my tastes. I have steep slope from 20hz down, its the slow wobble from there down that Im chasing. As Im going through movies that a have slow roll off or are close to full bandwidth, its crazy the content down low that is available. The fact that I can get this without my house shuddering and making noise is a huge plus.
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post #2328 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 04:45 PM
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Got my MBQuarts and have started installing them but thought of a question when it comes to wiring them to the amp. Can I run each platform off of one amp channel each? That would be 3 JBL's and 3 MBQuarts per channel but I'm not sure how to wire it for the proper impedance load? By wiring them this way I could control each platform independently.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can install the MBQuarts facing opposite the JBL's so long as I run them out of phase?

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post #2329 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by brazensol View Post
Got my MBQuarts and have started installing them but thought of a question when it comes to wiring them to the amp. Can I run each platform off of one amp channel each? That would be 3 JBL's and 3 MBQuarts per channel but I'm not sure how to wire it for the proper impedance load? By wiring them this way I could control each platform independently.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can install the MBQuarts facing opposite the JBL's so long as I run them out of phase?
3 per channel will be 12 ohm load per. Higher the impedance lower the power delivered. Here's a link, may help to visualize so you can get a handle on series vs parallel wiring. Series adds impedance, parallel halves it. 2 4ohm series=8ohm 2 4ohm parallel=2ohm

Correct, always dbl check phase after setup with A/B, you'll be able to tell if its off.

https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/s...g-diagrams.asp
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post #2330 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 05:22 PM
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I’m going to have to raise these Hudson highfi feet aren’t I?

Dangn’t!







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post #2331 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 05:42 PM
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If you wire an even number of speakers series/parallel that maintains the same load as one speaker, so if they are 4 ohm it’s 4 ohm at the amp
So in your case you run positive to speaker 1-3-5. Negative to 2-4-6. Then connect the remaining poles across 1-2, 3-4, 5-6
With that they will all be in phase. For your case needing the mb’s Out of phase I think it would be best to lay it out like above and then switch wires on the mb’s to keep from too much confusion.
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post #2332 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 05:58 PM
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The 20-30hz shudder can be overwhelming. Ive dialed most of that out for my tastes. I have steep slope from 20hz down, its the slow wobble from there down that Im chasing. As Im going through movies that a have slow roll off or are close to full bandwidth, its crazy the content down low that is available. The fact that I can get this without my house shuddering and making noise is a huge plus.


I think the room plays a large part in this chase also. My room is a vacuum for sub 35hz. It’s sad really. So, getting that back with this BOSS is nice. I’ve only watched demo scenes, so I’ll have to wait and see what a whole movie is like. But, I didn’t realize how much I missed the 35hz - 20hz stuff. I did try the BOSS without a filter, and it didn’t feel right.

The wobble is nice, but my Crowsons handle that. I’m going to try and get the other two drivers hooked up and the platform running as a single unit.


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post #2333 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Do you guys like literally bouncing up and down 1/2" or more on regular occasion or is this for occasional novelty? @SBuger , and similar setups - I don't think I can even imagine. I had to tell carp to turn his stuff down because it was so ridiculous.

I'm backtracking a bit right now on my one off setup. I've been playing with my chair mount MBQuartz 12" for the last few days more, and it's fun, and novelty, but anything more than the very lowest levels of shake and I find it too much for extended listening sessions. I want, subjectively/personally, a realistic level of bass felt, and not amusement park ride. It's fun to cut it loss for a few seconds on a wild setting, but I don't want it left there very long.

I do realize enthusiasts come in all forms, but rarely am I accused of being a bass lightweight.

I bought a 4'x4' piece of 3/4" plywood today to directly compare the proper BOSS platform as originally laid out, vs. my direct chair mount -- both with the shallow mount 12" MB Quart.

Whichever I like more, I'll implement x4. (to this point I've only installed it on one chair).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
The 20-30hz shudder can be overwhelming. Ive dialed most of that out for my tastes. I have steep slope from 20hz down, its the slow wobble from there down that Im chasing. As Im going through movies that a have slow roll off or are close to full bandwidth, its crazy the content down low that is available. The fact that I can get this without my house shuddering and making noise is a huge plus.

Jonathan, I agree with GK. I don't run BOSS full range anymore, I prefer a filter at 20hz with a 12 db slope. Play with all kinds of slopes/filter points and I guarantee you will find something you really like.

The chairs move a lot though, for sure. Last Saturday I had a friend and his teenage son over to watch Ready Player One and Solo. At one point during RP1 the bowl of popcorn that was on that little arm rest table vibrated off and fell on the floor. Ooops.
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post #2334 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 06:20 PM
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This last weekend I removed the BOSS platform and 2 drivers that I put under my couch on my back row riser. I still have the 4 drivers in the riser itself.

I found that when I put in the plywood platform for the riser for the couch it muted much of the bass spl coming from the drivers in the riser. It's funny... some may remember that when I was putting the drivers in the riser I was not liking all the bass sound I was getting from the riser. That was before I dialed in those drivers with my 18's up front. They play together so well, and I got used to that sound. I'm surprised that puting a piece of plywood over the riser drivers muted the bass that much but it did, and no it wasn't the drivers in the plywood that were cancelling out the spl because even when muting the couch BOSS the bass was still much lower than with no plywood covering the riser drivers.

I did like movies better on the back row couch with having the separate control of the couch and the riser, but it's still really, really damn good with just the riser drivers and my MLP is in the front row anyway.
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post #2335 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Do you guys like literally bouncing up and down 1/2" or more on regular occasion or is this for occasional novelty? @SBuger , and similar setups - I don't think I can even imagine. I had to tell carp to turn his stuff down because it was so ridiculous.



I'm backtracking a bit right now on my one off setup. I've been playing with my chair mount MBQuartz 12" for the last few days more, and it's fun, and novelty, but anything more than the very lowest levels of shake and I find it too much for extended listening sessions. I want, subjectively/personally, a realistic level of bass felt, and not amusement park ride. It's fun to cut it loss for a few seconds on a wild setting, but I don't want it left there very long.



I do realize enthusiasts come in all forms, but rarely am I accused of being a bass lightweight.



I bought a 4'x4' piece of 3/4" plywood today to directly compare the proper BOSS platform as originally laid out, vs. my direct chair mount -- both with the shallow mount 12" MB Quart.



Whichever I like more, I'll implement x4. (to this point I've only installed it on one chair).


Very interested in this. I have a JBL mounted to my couch as well. Curious if you find one to be more natural, or easier to integrate etc. I also love my BOSS(?), but don’t wanna be knocked on the floor when john wick shuts his car door lol! I did “open it up” during a demo of hacksaw ridge for my neighbor. shocked!
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post #2336 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AcousticSoul View Post
If you wire an even number of speakers series/parallel that maintains the same load as one speaker, so if they are 4 ohm it’s 4 ohm at the amp
So in your case you run positive to speaker 1-3-5. Negative to 2-4-6. Then connect the remaining poles across 1-2, 3-4, 5-6
With that they will all be in phase. For your case needing the mb’s Out of phase I think it would be best to lay it out like above and then switch wires on the mb’s to keep from too much confusion.
Does it matter if the MBQuarts are dual voice coils?

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post #2337 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 07:19 PM
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Does it matter if the MBQuarts are dual voice coils?


Yes

Here is how you wire dual voice coil drovers like the MB Quart.
https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/s...s.asp?Q=2&I=42


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post #2338 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I’m going to have to raise these Hudson highfi feet aren’t I?

Dangn’t!

Dang, the MB Quart driver surround and diaphragm really sticks up past the gasket a lot further than the JBL, guess that’s necessary for the shallow mount. Definitely add some spacers, looks to be necessary even with the JBL when only using the iso feet for separation; I made that mistake, but haven’t destroyed the drivers yet.

Maybe a 1/8” overhang on the JBL

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post #2339 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 09:47 PM
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The Hideaway Theater

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Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
Very interested in this. I have a JBL mounted to my couch as well. Curious if you find one to be more natural, or easier to integrate etc. I also love my BOSS(?), but don’t wanna be knocked on the floor when john wick shuts his car door lol! I did “open it up” during a demo of hacksaw ridge for my neighbor. shocked!
Here's my take after a couple hours of demoing back and forth, between BOSS platform and direct chair mount with the exact same amplifier settings and power going to each MB Quart driver. 24hz high cut shelf at 12/dB per octave in the DSP. Voltage limiter engaged - 40 watts maxed for two subwoofers. I wasn't hitting the limiter and the subs weren't making any bad feel/sound -- I played a lot of music, and movie clips - movie clips off the scubasteve demo disk2.

Direct Chair mount setup: More natural feeling, you'd not know it was engaged over my regular subwoofers if I didn't tell you. It's not fun as you turn it up, because it seems to give you that feeling of "buzing"/intense vibration as you increase output. It's best and very natural with the output kept in check and a low Hz shelf LPF (easy to do). It doesn't bounce vertically very much - I wish it did just a bit more. My direct mount just adds realistic acoustic energy feel. As in I can get pretty much identical tactile feel that reflects running my eight 18" subwoofers at reference, but now at any main listening volume I want -- and it feels very natural. Want to go crazy and just see how loud you can take it?? -- doesn't feel good. But one clear positive is that (be it luck, or my particular chairs) it feels very uniform throughout the whole chair, legs, to butt, to back.

BOSS platform: More jello jiggly vertical bounce feeling by probably 50% at the same settings, with the exact same power. The BOSS platform jiggles more. I like that bounce, it's fun, but reality is that the effect of sitting on a trampoline isn't fully realistic, bass doesn't make you bounce like that. So I'm torn. Want more crazy? Turn it up, you just bounce more! However, I've been in home theater rooms with 140dB-150dB real bass (pennynike1 and Lukeamdman in particular) and bouncing like that, that Jello feeling, even at those ridiculous tremendous SPL levels doesn't really happen. (Both of those rooms are basement slab home theater rooms for what is' worth). The bounce is fun, and grin inducing, don't get me wrong, but I think ultra realism might take a slight backseat to the Fun characteristic when the BOSS platform is cranked to max. I need to do more testing still to make a decision. I think I almost found a middle ground in putting boards under the 20 durameter iso on the direct mount setup instead of letting the ISOs sit directly on the carpet, but even then I still can't get the jiggly shake of the BOSS platform with the direct mount setup. If it's any consideration they are both great, and I'm having trouble figuring out which way I want to go - even after two hours of demoing back and forth - direct A/B. So either route is quite good. Where as with the direct mount, I get more uniform TR through my chair, ok the BOSS platform the strongest sensation is in the seat of my chair. Still feels great, just not quite as much happening on the foot rest or chairback.

I think if I wanted to never tell someone I'd done this additional tactile response, I'd use the direct mount and I'd wager big money no enthusiast would guess I'd done with volume in check. They’d just think my subwoofers were extremely tactile — vs, if I wanted to say hey check this out, and bounce someone's ball cap off and make them grin ear to ear laughter, id do the BOSS platform and then be asked by my guest to explain how I did that. Sort of a sleeper car vs show car analogy.

I asked my wife to come down and listen and tell me what she thought. I played a few songs for her and she sat in both seats for them. She said she wasn't good to judge because she hates bass, and hates feeling her vision blur and her eyes jiggle, and the feeling of anxiousness that bass causes. (I didn't have it anywhere near loud enough to do those things to me, but she's super sensitive to it she always says) Anyway she humored me and participated. She didn't like either, surprise. She said the BOSS platform made her eyes feel like they were bouncing in her head, and the direct mount made her head feel like it was buzzing. She said when it was lower volume she liked the direct mount better, but as I turned it up the direct mount made her whole body tingly and her head vibrate, and the BOSS platform was just too much movement for her, but was less annoying. So really we came to the same observations (more or less) -- just she didn't like either concept and I like both!

I liked the realism of the direct mount, but who can ignore the fun of the BOSS in the IronMan Jericho missile scene, or the Cannon fire in Master and Commander? For those scenes the BOSS's extra jiggle and depth was fantastic! In BlackHawk down the BOSS jiggled, more, but I felt the direct mount was more accurate to what those Choppers really feel like (I've flown in them). In the THX Amazing Life clip the mushroom thump was more exaggerated and fun with the BOSS, but more tight and controlled feeling with the direct mount. On Star Wars Red Matter I like both equally. On the Depth Charge scene from U571, the explosion felt more jiggly on BOSS, and tighter with direct mount - I liked both. With the Cave Troll scene where the hobbit knocks the bucket down the well, the BOSS platform actually shook there, I didn't even know that bucket was supposed to have bass. Mr. and Mrs. Smith was better on the direct mount because the shotgun blasts were tight, vs. jiggly. And so on and so on...More of the same coin toss for the victory — unique per demo clip.

One more note --- for music with my current settings. The BOSS platform with my generic 24hz 12/dB linkwitz shelf filter (and my MBQuart drivers) activates insanely at the lowest frequencies, but doesn't do much above those frequencies so it seems (at least with no PEQ) to be very clearly only activating on the lowest notes. I.E., if I'm listing to music there's nothing in Diana Crawl with the BOSS platform, in some modern top 40 music a few notes jiggle you around, but most you feel nothing, and finally dubstep makes you wobble around like you’re on a fishing dock in a lake full of jello. In contrast, with the same settings, the direct mount MB Quart driver let's me feel every frequency all the way up to kick drums in a increasingly diminished manner as the frequency increases -- it feels like the LPF shelf says it should (or perhaps how the EQ shelf looks like it should feel). I'm sure I could get the BOSS platform build to be more even handed as it fades up in frequency with some additional tinkering and manual PEQ -- this isn't to take away from the BOSS build -- just describing the current clear difference between the two different builds. Both feel on the whole very natural, and better to me than any traditional tactile transducer. The BOSS platform just seems to take better advantage of the ISOs for some reason.


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BOSS Platform Pics:








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post #2340 of 2935 Old 05-15-2019, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Do you guys like literally bouncing up and down 1/2" or more on regular occasion or is this for occasional novelty? @SBuger , and similar setups - I don't think I can even imagine. I had to tell carp to turn his stuff down because it was so ridiculous.

I'm backtracking a bit right now on my one off setup. I've been playing with my chair mount MBQuartz 12" for the last few days more, and it's fun, and novelty, but anything more than the very lowest levels of shake and I find it too much for extended listening sessions. I want, subjectively/personally, a realistic level of bass felt, and not amusement park ride. It's fun to cut it loss for a few seconds on a wild setting, but I don't want it left there very long.

I do realize enthusiasts come in all forms, but rarely am I accused of being a bass lightweight.

I bought a 4'x4' piece of 3/4" plywood today to directly compare the proper BOSS platform as originally laid out, vs. my direct chair mount -- both with the shallow mount 12" MB Quart.

Whichever I like more, I'll implement x4. (to this point I've only installed it on one chair).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
The 20-30hz shudder can be overwhelming. Ive dialed most of that out for my tastes. I have steep slope from 20hz down, its the slow wobble from there down that Im chasing. As Im going through movies that a have slow roll off or are close to full bandwidth, its crazy the content down low that is available. The fact that I can get this without my house shuddering and making noise is a huge plus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Jonathan, I agree with GK. I don't run BOSS full range anymore, I prefer a filter at 20hz with a 12 db slope. Play with all kinds of slopes/filter points and I guarantee you will find something you really like.

The chairs move a lot though, for sure. Last Saturday I had a friend and his teenage son over to watch Ready Player One and Solo. At one point during RP1 the bowl of popcorn that was on that little arm rest table vibrated off and fell on the floor. Ooops.

@Archaea - Well, I do like a lot of shake/TR for sure (maybe more than some folks prefer, IDK), but I like to get about as much as I can in the wobble area under 20hz, kind of like GK and Carp it sounds like. BUT, I do really like the 20-30hz area too. It can be sharp feeling (kind of like @Sekosche has been saying lately) and I love the feel it creates in the chest, back and gut area. It can be such a cool intensity and feel pretty exhilarating at the right intensity levels. I do seem to like quite a bit of it. That said though, it can be too overpowering if overdone, so I usually like it lower in level compared to the ULF wobble area on the White Noise 0-50hz VS graph (all frequencies are equal on White Noise) and try to set it up so my TR reads like a rising house curve from higher to lower. Otherwise is can get to overwhelming and the ultra low end can feel lacking in relation. Plus, I really have to be careful not to get too much TR above about 35hz, as it gets real distracting and overwhelming quite quickly if not rained in. At least for movies and on my particular seats.

An example of what I'm talking about with a rising TR House Curve can be seen on this White Noise 0-50hz VS reading I took last week around ref bass levels (-10mv with subs 8-12db hot with rising House curve).

White Noise is fantastic for setting your TR curve up the way you like (and also seeing if you have any lagging or too strong of areas going on. This is how I've really been loving my TR slope setup lately and kind of resembles the HC on my FR ...

TR ..The graph on the left is reclined and the one on the right is not reclined. This is about at the levels that I like with all components combined. I could turn each one of them up more, but if I can get these levels on the White Noise 0-50hz, then actual content feels about right and pretty darn intense when needs to be. The BOSS is doing most of it and I just have the VNFs and MAs mainly supporting, except the MAs are doing most of the work in the singles digits work (which doesn't show well with the VibSensor (known issue)). That's ok though, it can still really be felt, so I know they are working


FR ..for an example, my FR which is somewhat similar looking as well with the rising House Curve. I seem to prefer rising House Curve on both FR and TR. This is an older FR but should still look fairly similar to what I have now, but I do need to recalibrate after raising my seats and having more of a sealed BOSS box now.


I'm usually really happy with how the TR feels in movies if I can get my TR intensity levels on the White Noise 0-50hz up somewhere in-between 1e-01 and 1e+00 from about 25-30hz and under. VS doesn't read well at all below 10hz with the White Noise file, but that's ok and why it looks like its lacking like I mentioned up above. This is a known problem with VS. But it still feels crazy strong under 10hz into the singles, especially with the MAs doing their thing, as this is where they really shine and one of the reasons I love them so. Combined with the BOSS is a wobbling good time down super low

So as far as it being a novelty, I love it so much that I guess it still kind of is even after getting this kind of TR for the last 3-4 years with VNFs, BKs and MAs It was real similar feeling to the BOSS but the addition of the BOSS has made it better and I'm grateful for it. It just feels better in ways to me, but still close to the same intensity levels. So yep, I've been enjoying powerful TR for quite a while now and is a HUGE part of the excitement for me on these movies. In fact it's nowhere near as fun and exciting to me without it. I've loved it ever since I got a taste of when I first started using VNF subs (about 4-5 years ago I think), not too long after you ran those experiments with the smaller subs behind you and then started using the 18's shortly after as well. You are a big part of the reason I started doing it too, along with carp and a few others. It took that TR and slam feel to levels I had only dreamed of before with only using farfield subs, even listening at too high of levels that were uncomfortable. That was my first taste of good TR and I was hooked

One of the coolest parts of being able to get amazing TR so easily now though is not having to listen at insane levels to get that awesome feel, and it makes it so much more fun and enjoyable IMO.

As far a getting a 1/2" of bounce up and down on a regular occasion. LOL, well maybe, as I'm an avid demo'er and love to get as an extreme of TR experience as I can nearly every day, at least in a brief session if I can fit it in. It's like a drug to me I guess, and is exhilarating in an awesome kind of way. I just love it and never seem to tire of it. As an example, today for demo (and trying to work something out a little better) I watched that 'Venom' city chase scene (BEQ'd) about 5 times back to back. I felt kind of wore out afterwards, but in a great way LOL. My insides felt tired from tensing up so much from TR intensity and just the feeling of getting slammed. I know its kind of weird, but I just absolutely love this feeling!! Also there is a scene in IT (BEQ'd as well) that is 12hz strong for about 15 seconds. Its super intense and cool feeling. The wobble is strong enough that I can't focus on my lap top for example, especially up around ref bass levels. I was messing with muting and un-mutting the BOSS, MAs, VNFs etc checking each one out and then combined and I couldn't really focus at all on the screen when it really gets going, making it pretty darn blurry. This is the kind of ULF TR I like LOL. Wobble wobble wobble, love me some wobble

It still feels natural to me though, just super intense and realistic. With crazy TR and being so close to the screen, it really feels like I'm right there experiencing it for real a lot of times and can really get my heart racing. But I don't know that I really feel like I'm bouncing. The TR is felt more internally I think, which is what I want and love, and makes it feel more exhilarating and even terrifying (for lack of a better word) at times. And the more intense the TR is, the more of this feeling it brings. On most good actions scenes or where it's called for, this is usually a wonderful thing.

One thing that has really help eliminate the feeling of bounce though and just seems to be felt more and all the little TR nuances, is putting my riser on the ground (carpet over pad) with no isos between bottom of riser and floor. Seems to work great on my suspended floor. I love the feeling it gives and seems to increase the ULF which is cool. I know that is really going against the grain of what is recommended with BOSS, BUT I am using isolators on top of the platform, along with the MAs that I really love the feel of. The first time I really experienced my BOSS, it had accidentally slipped of the isos and I didn't even realize it at the time. Now I guess I know why I liked it so much and am now back to it, but WITH isos on top this time that I really seem to love.

Sorry Archaea, as usual, I typed up way more of a reply than I had planned. But there it is, wanted or not hahahaha
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My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft sealed room, suspended floor | SY Triple Black Velvet for Blackout | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | GIK Treatments | Oppo 203 | Epson 5040 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs (4x SI DS4-18s & 2x UM22-18s) | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' 6x JBL12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD

Last edited by SBuger; 05-15-2019 at 10:39 PM.
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