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post #2371 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 12:47 PM
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BOSS 2.0

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
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post #2372 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 01:06 PM
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^^ Looking good. Almost there
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post #2373 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 01:12 PM
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No delay is needed.
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post #2374 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
How do you guys set time delay for the BOSS? Is a setting the same that would be used for very close NF which would have large delay. Or is it better to set for same as furthest placed sub? I'm sure the answer is a preference thing but it just has me wondering...
If the BOSS behaves like my Crowsons, and I believe it does, you want "0" delay...negative delay would be even better.
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post #2375 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
If the BOSS behaves like my Crowsons, and I believe it does, you want "0" delay...negative delay would be even better.
Running eq (ypao for me) is going to set a delay time for the subs (normal subs, not boss) from what I understand... are you saying you want the BOSS to have 0 delay in relation to the subs, or that it would be good to go into the minidsp 2x4HD and somehow have the BOSS getting its signal prior to the subs in the room?

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Equipment: Yamaha 3050, Oppo 103d, PSA mt 110s (L,C,R), Polk tsi200 (SR/L), 2 VBSS, FullMarty, 4 driver BOSS build, umik-1, Epson 3700
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post #2376 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryceDH View Post
Running eq (ypao for me) is going to set a delay time for the subs (normal subs, not boss) from what I understand... are you saying you want the BOSS to have 0 delay in relation to the subs, or that it would be good to go into the minidsp 2x4HD and somehow have the BOSS getting its signal prior to the subs in the room?

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@aron7awol can explain this negative delay stuff much better than I can. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it sometimes.


HERE is a good discussion of negative delay where I was finally able to understand what he was trying to tell me!
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post #2377 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryceDH View Post
Running eq (ypao for me) is going to set a delay time for the subs (normal subs, not boss) from what I understand... are you saying you want the BOSS to have 0 delay in relation to the subs, or that it would be good to go into the minidsp 2x4HD and somehow have the BOSS getting its signal prior to the subs in the room?

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You need to think of this in terms of aligning in sync with your mains and not the other subs. Since you have the HD you have the ability to add negative delay. Your signal chain will play a part, more connections will increase the need for a negative delay. Generally you shouldn't need one but it's doesn't hurt to experiment.

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post #2378 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
BOSS 2.0
Spoiler!
What changed your mind, I thought you were all set?

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post #2379 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
You need to think of this in terms of aligning in sync with your mains and not the other subs. Since you have the HD you have the ability to add negative delay. Your signal chain will play a part, more connections will increase the need for a negative delay. Generally you shouldn't need one but it's doesn't hurt to experiment.
Ok. In my mind since I have nearfield subs less than a foot behind me I am most concerned with the boss hitting the same time they do. I'm just running the boss off the same input I'm running my nearfield from in the 2x4hd matrix. Ypao set the proper delay for the nearfield with relation to all the speakers. I might play a little and see what happens.

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Equipment: Yamaha 3050, Oppo 103d, PSA mt 110s (L,C,R), Polk tsi200 (SR/L), 2 VBSS, FullMarty, 4 driver BOSS build, umik-1, Epson 3700
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post #2380 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
If the BOSS behaves like my Crowsons, and I believe it does, you want "0" delay...negative delay would be even better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
@aron7awol can explain this negative delay stuff much better than I can. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around it sometimes.


HERE is a good discussion of negative delay where I was finally able to understand what he was trying to tell me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
You need to think of this in terms of aligning in sync with your mains and not the other subs. Since you have the HD you have the ability to add negative delay. Your signal chain will play a part, more connections will increase the need for a negative delay. Generally you shouldn't need one but it's doesn't hurt to experiment.
I'm glad you guys chimed in. My thinking was the less delay or zero delay would make sense as to be timed with the visual que's happening right at the moment of visual que on the screen/tv. I will read the article to help me understand.

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post #2381 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
I'm glad you guys chimed in. My thinking was the less delay or zero delay would make sense as to be timed with the visual que's happening right at the moment of visual que on the screen/tv. I will read the article to help me understand.
Basically, you need to add to the sub distance in your AVR (Denon will limit you to only 20' more than your closest speaker) which decreases delay. Then add back the delay to the subs in the MiniDSP.

Say your sub distance is currently set to 15' in your AVR and your closest speaker is 5', you would be able to push the sub distance up to 25' (an additional 10'). Doing so, you just subtracted 11ms of delay (1'=1.1ms). You then add that 11ms of delay to all subs connected to the MiniDSP (re-aligning the subs with the speakers), leaving the BOSS at "0". You just gained an extra 11ms of delay between the subs/speakers and the BOSS. You may or may not need that much, but testing has proven that even that much is not enough.
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post #2382 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryceDH View Post
Running eq (ypao for me) is going to set a delay time for the subs (normal subs, not boss) from what I understand... are you saying you want the BOSS to have 0 delay in relation to the subs, or that it would be good to go into the minidsp 2x4HD and somehow have the BOSS getting its signal prior to the subs in the room?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


You need to play with it by feel.

I found that adding some delay to the NX3000D in the Behringer DSP GUI made my direct mount hybrid and BOSS platform made feel more closely matched/realistic/accurate to my nearfield sub, where the 18” driver isn’t as close in distance.

Keep in mind that adding “distance” in an AVR (Denon and Marantz and Onkyo) is actually increasing the speed the signal is processed... it’s opposite of what you might originally have thought. IE - If your speaker is 25’ away the receiver needs to process/output the sound more quickly to arrive in sync with a speaker that is 6’ away.

VS. on the Behringer amp DSP, adding delay is actually adding delay. Making the impact / impulse response slower in getting to you.

It plays out like this

Let’s say Audyssey puts my front sub bank at 12’
It puts my rear sub bank at 4.1 foot.

That all feels very much perfect

When I split off my sub 2 nearfield bank to the direct mount BOSS hybrid idea it didn’t feel quite right. Timing (impulse response) felt a bit off.

I turned off my nearfield 18” sub and manually fidgeted with the sub2 distance playing only the Boss direct mount hybrid until I felt like it felt good and accurate to the front sub 1 Bank of subwoofers. That distance setting for sub 2 was about 2.5’

Turn on the nearfield 18” again and boss hybrid both and now the nearfield 18” felt off because with the lesser distance in the AVR they are now firing too late. (In AVR more distance = < delay, less distance = > delay)

This is perceivable with kick drums of beat based music.

So I put my sub2 bank back at the original 4.1 feet which is ideal for the nearfield (but makes BOSS hybrid fire too fast, and in my NX3000D I added a slight ~ 2 foot delay. (Making it > delay for the BOSS Hybrid)

Since my butt is 6” from the direct mount and 2’ from the nearfield it l feels perfect now.

I used generic measurements through all this but you get the idea.
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post #2383 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 04:10 PM
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Ingenious!!

Sony 75X940E, Denon X6200w, Sony X700, Roku Ultra, MiniDSP 2x4HD
Parasound (2x)HCA-855a, HCA-750a, Sony ES4300
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post #2384 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
What changed your mind, I thought you were all set?

I was totally set, but...

Maybe it was the extra 4th driver I had from the original order that prompted me to order two more a couple weeks later. That and I really needed to add a little more ground clearance as just the isos are not enough. I also built this one so the couch is flush with the front; have already tripped over or into it a few times and don’t want my kids/wife hurting themselves on it. I also blame the ease of building/modifying the BOSS.

And more BOSS is always better, no?! Will be interesting to see how I can dial all six in below 20Hz now that I’m not afraid of too much excursion.

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
Video: Epson 3700; Screen: Silver Ticket 106" High Contrast
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post #2385 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong
Isn’t it the only way to feed the boss? Perhaps you meant feeding the boss full range LFE with no LPF?
No. A typical subwoofer is fed with both the LFE signal + redirected bass from the 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, or 15 speaker surround speakers. I am only feeding the BOSS with the LFE channel. LFE can go up to 120hz, I have it lowpassed at 80hz.
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post #2386 of 2822 Old 05-17-2019, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
No. A typical subwoofer is fed with both the LFE signal + redirected bass from the 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, or 15 speaker surround speakers. I am only feeding the BOSS with the LFE channel. LFE can go up to 120hz, I have it lowpassed at 80hz.

Why do you prefer just the LFE signal for the BOSS? Just curious

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
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post #2387 of 2822 Old 05-18-2019, 05:51 AM
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Out with old and in with new.
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post #2388 of 2822 Old 05-18-2019, 06:02 AM
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@Sekosche - if i send all the redirected bass to the boss, i agree with some others that it can be a bit too much, a bit too distracting, and almost mandates the use of a lowpass filter somwhere in the 20-40hz range. Otherwise you are shaking throughout a movie with bass constantly. With just the LFE signal, i can still allow bass up to 80hz (which i like because the higher bass frequencies have a different effect, and i want to experience a range of tactile effects) without it being overwhelming or active ALL the time. The LFE channel is typically active in the most bass heavy scenes, and typically gets the lowest frequency information in it. The redirected bass is typically higher in frequency and is typically more abundant.
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post #2389 of 2822 Old 05-18-2019, 10:19 AM
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@TRH ough.. Re: Your comment: "..like bicycle inner tubes specifically. An interesting idea to explore to see what else may be possible, especially if that inner tube can be used for 2 purposes, as skirting to enhance the hovercraft effect and providing the duty of the isolators."

It just dawned on me that you were likely suggesting a concentric arrangement for the inner tubes, with each speaker skirted by its own tube - DUH... I love it!!! Thinking that the using small utillity trailer tire tubes might work best to maximize the effect, by increasing pumping efficiency? Since my couch is on thick carpet, breathing might not be that much of an issue. I've mounted four JBL's under the main part of my sectional... (insert mad scientist maniacal lol here...)
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post #2390 of 2822 Old 05-18-2019, 10:24 AM
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I did some vibrasensor testing between my BOSS mini platform, and my hybrid direct mount, and a control chair.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...l#post58065162
Post 2068.

I also recounted some subjective testing last night with @desertdome , who happened through KC for an AV calibration job today.

I'm still undecided which I like better. But I'd like to finish up all four chairs one way or the other today.

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post #2391 of 2822 Old 05-18-2019, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
@Sekosche - if i send all the redirected bass to the boss, i agree with some others that it can be a bit too much, a bit too distracting, and almost mandates the use of a lowpass filter somwhere in the 20-40hz range. Otherwise you are shaking throughout a movie with bass constantly. With just the LFE signal, i can still allow bass up to 80hz (which i like because the higher bass frequencies have a different effect, and i want to experience a range of tactile effects) without it being overwhelming or active ALL the time. The LFE channel is typically active in the most bass heavy scenes, and typically gets the lowest frequency information in it. The redirected bass is typically higher in frequency and is typically more abundant.

Makes sense, my nearfields give me enough up to 100Hz so I’ve been running the MA’s and BOSS much lower, I can’t imagine running an 80Hz LPF on the BOSS! May have to try it just once, but I imagine it’s distracting.

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
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post #2392 of 2822 Old 05-18-2019, 12:09 PM
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I made a video of the Hudson HIFI 20 durometer as feet to show a comparison. Between 1) no feet, 2) Hudson HIFI isolators attached to bottom of chair and 3) Boss platform with Hudson HIFI isolators.

https://imgur.com/gallery/CFnsSx4?s=sms

I’m having trouble keeping my chair from sliding around on the mini riser. What adhesive are you guys using?

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post #2393 of 2822 Old 05-18-2019, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I’m having trouble keeping my chair from sliding around on the mini riser. What adhesive are you guys using?
My seat has feet and I used small blocks of wood attached to the platform that lock the feet in place.

Electronics: Denon X4400, Vizio M65
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My seat has feet and I used small blocks of wood attached to the platform that lock the feet in place.
I did the same...

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Equipment: Yamaha 3050, Oppo 103d, PSA mt 110s (L,C,R), Polk tsi200 (SR/L), 2 VBSS, FullMarty, 4 driver BOSS build, umik-1, Epson 3700
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post #2395 of 2822 Old 05-18-2019, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I’m having trouble keeping my chair from sliding around on the mini riser. What adhesive are you guys using?
I got this but haven’t built my boss to try on yet.

https://www.amazon.com/Gorilla-Heavy...8-5&th=1&psc=1
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post #2396 of 2822 Old 05-18-2019, 02:29 PM
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Slap a few silicone isos on your furniture and it won’t budge, even the smaller ones would work, and jiggle, jiggle, jiggle.

Speakers: PSA MTM-210T x2, MTM-210C, MT-110SR x2; Atmos-SVS Satellite x2, DIY Volt-10 x2
Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
Video: Epson 3700; Screen: Silver Ticket 106" High Contrast
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post #2397 of 2822 Old 05-18-2019, 08:17 PM
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My platform has thick carpet on it, the recliners stay put.
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post #2398 of 2822 Old 05-19-2019, 09:05 AM
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This is how it’s done




All that for one seat !
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post #2399 of 2822 Old 05-19-2019, 09:17 AM
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@Nalleh

You are going to hit your head on the ceiling.
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post #2400 of 2822 Old 05-19-2019, 09:21 AM
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I'm going to call Boston Dynamics and tell them I have a new customer for their sand flea...

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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