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post #2491 of 2930 Old 05-24-2019, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AcousticSoul View Post
@trhought
I think I am driving them harder than that. They are wired series/parallel so a 4 ohm load to a nx3000d. I have the gain knob at 50% and using only one channel. I am not familiar enough and don't understand the amp yet to know how to set limits or what I am actually feeding them. Also I generally watch stuff at -10 and haven't pushed it to reference. Probably should figure that out before I kill them
Thanks for the additional data point. I'm guessing they may handle 30W, maybe 40W depending on Xmech of the Dayton 15". By chance, if you get things dialed in using the power limiting function of the nx3000d and find a power setting that does well for your setup, would love to know what that setting is. The Dayton driver and the low-profile MBQ's both model with 20 watts and would be great drivers to use for scaling if they indeed use lower power.

Your setup looks awesome with that huge sectional and everyone enjoying ULF now......nicely executed!
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post #2492 of 2930 Old 05-24-2019, 03:56 PM
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For those that VibSensors your TR, can one of you do me a favor and measure your TR of subs only, then Boss only, and then both together please? I would like to see the difference and how much TR boss adds. TIA.
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post #2493 of 2930 Old 05-24-2019, 07:07 PM
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Sorry to come off a s dunce here! You guys use lots of contractions for different things. I tracked down several.. BK=Butt Kicker, MA= Crowson TACTILE Motion Actuator (guess we dropped the tactile ??),


But help me out here. What is TR ???
Transient Response ?? If so, how is that measured?


THX
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post #2494 of 2930 Old 05-24-2019, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ppasteur View Post
Sorry to come off a s dunce here! You guys use lots of contractions for different things. I tracked down several.. BK=Butt Kicker, MA= Crowson TACTILE Motion Actuator (guess we dropped the tactile ??),


But help me out here. What is TR ???
Transient Response ?? If so, how is that measured?


THX
Tactile Response. Most people use an app called VibSensor. There is a thread here dedicated to it.
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post #2495 of 2930 Old 05-24-2019, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
For those that VibSensors your TR, can one of you do me a favor and measure your TR of subs only, then Boss only, and then both together please? I would like to see the difference and how much TR boss adds. TIA.
I can get you pretty close... I've got measurements for boss only and subs only but not both. This boss measurement is when I had 2 drivers instead of 4. MAJOR difference.

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post #2496 of 2930 Old 05-24-2019, 09:52 PM
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^^ Wow, huge difference and you have capable subs . Making me nervous thinking about my almost completed 8 drivers boss
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post #2497 of 2930 Old 05-24-2019, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ Wow, huge difference and you have capable subs . Making me nervous thinking about my almost completed 8 drivers boss

Woot woot!

Since you’ve experienced MA’s and BK’s in other systems, you sort of know what you’re getting, but I’d say two BOSS drivers per seat is going to be a stupid powerful addition to your current subs.

I’d wager even with multiple massive nearfield subs, the TR provided from the BOSS is still many times more powerful; it’s not really a fair competition directly coupling the energy to your seat versus relying on PVL and SPL from nearfields to get you moving. Even when I had four 18” subs pounding away above reference (before the VNF additions), I barely had any TR below 30Hz on hard floors in a big room, and certainly had zero movement in my seat; of course that was before soft isos and a proper platform too.

This morning I bumped the LPF to 40Hz for the BOSS and MA’s just to try it watching Venom with BEQ at reference, and I also bumped the power to 100w per JBL driver and holy moly I nearly pooped myself during a few scenes. Definitely a little too high of a LPF, as Venom’s voice and some of the music came through the BOSS and it was a bit much, but still was pretty cool for a demo!

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post #2498 of 2930 Old 05-24-2019, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Woot woot!

Since you’ve experienced MA’s and BK’s in other systems, you sort of know what you’re getting, but I’d say two BOSS drivers per seat is going to be a stupid powerful addition to your current subs.

I’d wager even with multiple massive nearfield subs, the TR provided from the BOSS is still many times more powerful; it’s not really a fair competition directly coupling the energy to your seat versus relying on PVL and SPL from nearfields to get you moving. Even when I had four 18” subs pounding away above reference (before the VNF additions), I barely had any TR below 30Hz on hard floors in a big room, and certainly had zero movement in my seat; of course that was before soft isos and a proper platform too.

This morning I bumped the LPF to 40Hz for the BOSS and MA’s just to try it watching Venom with BEQ at reference, and I also bumped the power to 100w per JBL driver and holy moly I nearly pooped myself during a few scenes. Definitely a little too high of a LPF, as Venom’s voice and some of the music came through the BOSS and it was a bit much, but still was pretty cool for a demo!


You watched venom with BEQ at reference? holy smokes. I was thinking my -10MV was going to damage my house. Wow!


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post #2499 of 2930 Old 05-24-2019, 11:05 PM
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You watched venom with BEQ at reference? holy smokes. I was thinking my -10MV was going to damage my house. Wow!

Sorry, I usually use the term “reference” as shorthand for the bass level was at reference, which is -8MV for me, which is pretty darn loud. I watch most movies around -7 or 8 these days, maybe -10 if I have a headache.

Venom at 0MV would’ve probably broken me.

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post #2500 of 2930 Old 05-25-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Woot woot!

but I’d say two BOSS drivers per seat is going to be a stupid powerful addition to your current subs.

I’d wager even with multiple massive nearfield subs, the TR provided from the BOSS is still many times more powerful;
Cool. We are away for Memorial weekend, so boss won’t be finished until after the holiday .
I haven’t been this excited for a long while after reading you guys’ great impression about boss.
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post #2501 of 2930 Old 05-25-2019, 01:43 PM
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Since $65 seems to be the regular sale price at BB, perhaps this may be an acceptable option:
refurb JBL Stage 1210 $49 shipped
https://www.jbl.com/car-subwoofers/S...iABEgLCiPD_BwE
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #2502 of 2930 Old 05-25-2019, 04:53 PM
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@trhought
The Dayton 385-4 15’s are very easy to drive. I think I have the limiter set at 25W each and the limit light only flickers on and off with reference level stuff lower than 15hz or so. I say I think because I didn't even know the amps had software. Downloaded that but so far it hasn't wanted to sync with the amp. Need to get another usb cord and try it I guess. So I used the software to figure out the limit and used the front panel to set it
I was initially driving them harder than that and they hit harder but for normal listening 25 each is plenty
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post #2503 of 2930 Old 05-25-2019, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Since $65 seems to be the regular sale price at BB, perhaps this may be an acceptable option:
refurb JBL Stage 1210 $49 shipped
https://www.jbl.com/car-subwoofers/S...iABEgLCiPD_BwE
Michael
Sonic Electronix has the JBL’s at $49.99 as an everyday price (free shipping). Not quite $29.99, but not bad.
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post #2504 of 2930 Old 05-25-2019, 07:49 PM
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I was hoping someone (hint, hint) would model the Stage 1210 and see if it's any better or worse than the other available options.
Walmart has apparently sold out of the ones they had.
Note that Sonic also has a package deal with boxes, if you're so inclined.
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #2505 of 2930 Old 05-25-2019, 09:40 PM
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Walmart and Newegg have or had the JBL’s for $42 every time I looked, the latter has free shipping too. I bought my last two from Newegg for only $84 because it seems the random $29 sales have come to a halt, not bad at all though for two drivers! I wasn’t going to sweat a $12 price difference when it came to building my sextuplet BOSS baby.

Hope everyone has a good holiday weekend!
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post #2506 of 2930 Old 05-26-2019, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcousticSoul View Post
@trhought
The Dayton 385-4 15’s are very easy to drive. I think I have the limiter set at 25W each and the limit light only flickers on and off with reference level stuff lower than 15hz or so. I say I think because I didn't even know the amps had software. Downloaded that but so far it hasn't wanted to sync with the amp. Need to get another usb cord and try it I guess. So I used the software to figure out the limit and used the front panel to set it
I was initially driving them harder than that and they hit harder but for normal listening 25 each is plenty
AcousticSoul.....great feedback! Thanks so much. With the low power needs, those 15's would scale nicely to many different projects along with the low profile MBQuart's which also use less power. That's great to know for those who have room underneath furniture pieces (the 15's) or don't have much room underneath furniture pieces (MBQuart's) and looking to power a very capable BOSS platform with relatively small amps!

Enjoy your Quad 15" BOSS!
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post #2507 of 2930 Old 05-26-2019, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I was hoping someone (hint, hint) would model the Stage 1210 and see if it's any better or worse than the other available options.
Walmart has apparently sold out of the ones they had.
Note that Sonic also has a package deal with boxes, if you're so inclined.
Michael
So, I'm hearing there may be interest in an alternate JBL driver, called the Stage 1210....

Looks like a comparable driver to the beloved $29 JBL's.

With .86x the moving mass (154g vs 179g) and .95x the Xmax (11.35 vs 12), it has a shaker potential of .82 times that of the $29 JBL...pretty darn close. My guess is the Xmech is very similar on both drivers so the Stage 1210 could potentially reach the 15mm Xmech of the $29 JBL also.

The frequency responses are also very similar per below WinISD model.....red is the Stage 1210 and blue is the $29 JBL.

It takes about 55 watts for the Stage 1210 to reach Xmax.

Both are peaky around 20 Hz and there's a very slight difference in how they behave in the upper frequencies. The $29 JBL starts to roll off slightly more than the Stage 1210 around 22 Hz or so. Not a big difference though as can be seen in the FR below.

Overall, a very comparable driver.

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post #2508 of 2930 Old 05-26-2019, 07:42 PM
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So where do i get more isolators? My 3 layer, 15” boss systems keep compressing the isolators and furniture sliders more over time - they need more support.

The 2 layer, 12” boss systems are maintaining a larger gap.
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post #2509 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 03:45 AM
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I was hoping to have a answer by now. He's been slow to respond to my inquiry about silicon isos. I also asked them to ship my remaining sorbothane 70s 9 days ago and nada.

I can say when I ordered they shipped next day. Obviously a disconnect somewhere because of how this transaction went. Partly my fault as I was trying to avoid shipping full boxes back and forth multiple times.
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post #2510 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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So where do i get more isolators? My 3 layer, 15” boss systems keep compressing the isolators and furniture sliders more over time - they need more support.

The 2 layer, 12” boss systems are maintaining a larger gap.
This morning, when I clicked on the link in post 29, Amazon is showing 11 pcs. in stock for the 2.5" hemispheres.
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post #2511 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 07:46 AM
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Excellent, just picked up 8 more. Was it ever established if too many were a bad thing? I think it's clear for my front row risers that 4 feet simply isn't enough - the isolators are getting way too smushed.
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post #2512 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Excellent, just picked up 8 more. Was it ever established if too many were a bad thing? I think it's clear for my front row risers that 4 feet simply isn't enough - the isolators are getting way too smushed.


Is there a reason you guys aren’t looking at washer isolators? They use all kinds like these under washers to keep them from vibrating your floors.

Tons of styles, thickness and materials used so you can experiment away.

Some are cheap, some aren’t.... I’ve used them under my stereo gear for years.... I’m sure you could screw into them to attach to a platform, or put a bolt through them with a washer to hold them tight to it.



This is but an example. But it’s 1.5” thick...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01LY...?ie=UTF8&psc=1



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post #2513 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Excellent, just picked up 8 more. Was it ever established if too many were a bad thing? I think it's clear for my front row risers that 4 feet simply isn't enough - the isolators are getting way too smushed.

How much clearance is there between the riser and the ground after they compress?

From what I’ve read here, most are running 8-12 minimum on larger platforms or furniture. I can imagine only using 4 might compress too much on anything but a small chair. I have a total of 22 isos on my two layer build, with 14 on the much larger bottom layer, and I have exactly one inch clearance after compression. So mine compress about 0.25” inch from the original 1.25” thickness; seems pretty good to me as they’re only squishing down 20%, and I get a lot of wobble in both layers.

Here’s an interesting addition to the Hudson hi-fi lineup on Amazon called the Big Foot; it’s similar size to the 2.5” hemisphere isos but with an extra 0.25” height; wonder how that unique structure would hold up over time versus the strength of a hemisphere under compression.

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post #2514 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 08:22 AM
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@EndersShadow - because it needs to be isolation + wiggle. The platform has to be able to wiggle while essentially floating.
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post #2515 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 08:25 AM
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@EndersShadow - because it needs to be isolation + wiggle. The platform has to be able to wiggle while essentially floating.


And it will. My washer wiggles lots on these.... but the wiggles are ISOLATED to the washer.... IE the floor beneath them doesn’t vibrate, which is what you want....


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post #2516 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Excellent, just picked up 8 more. Was it ever established if too many were a bad thing? I think it's clear for my front row risers that 4 feet simply isn't enough - the isolators are getting way too smushed.
Steve....good question. Most of my testing was with 1 isolator every 24 inches or so. My flooring is commercial grade low pile carpet, no padding, directly glued to concrete slab. So, there was very little "other" compression components in the isolator stack so to speak, just the low pile carpet underneath my isolators.

Some of my testing showed a degradation in BOSS performance as more isolators were added (less platform floatiness so to speak). But, I never went back to get more data points to understand the behavior vs. number of isolators per unit length or anything like that.

Having said that, I could see how those with thick padding and high pile carpet, combined with furniture sliders could start to see some compression of those other components over time. My guess is you probably won't notice any degradation in BOSS performance if you were to double the isolators, especially with all the other compression components in your stack contributing to the floatiness (carpet, carpet padding, bending furniture slider, etc.).

However, you may continue to see compression over time. Even with the extra isolators and the lower forces under each isolator, creep will likely continue to happen, just at a slower rate with the lower force. If this is the case, I would suggest stiffer sliders (less bendiness) and possibly larger surface area sliders to reduce the compression forces on the carpet and padding even more.

As a last resort, members with Crowson's have even resorted to cutting the carpet and padding to get down to the base floor. I haven't heard of any BOSS applications needing this, but I guess it depends on how thick your carpet and padding are and how much pressure is under each point.

Wow, that was a lot of words for such a simple question. Hopefully some of the details provided help with your BOSS setup.
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post #2517 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 08:47 AM
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Great news! Got the MB Quarts installed on the first row and popped in Mad Max Fury Road for a spin on some selected scenes. Very disappointing. Then I remember I had to run the MB Quarts out of phase. Holy Cow!!! Almost a night and day difference between the second row TR and first row TR! Watched the scene where they entered the sandstorm several times. Awesome!

Not so great news... Last night we watched How To Train Your Dragon 2 and it was a dud LFE-wise (with a couple of momentary exceptions but over all not much to write home about). Totally different movie than HTTYD 1. I really must learn how that BEQ stuff works... The bad news is I guess I'll have to adjust each channel for BEQ so in my setup that will be 4 channels (just for the BOSS speakers). Nine total if I adjust all the bass channels.
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post #2518 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
How much clearance is there between the riser and the ground after they compress?

From what I’ve read here, most are running 8-12 minimum on larger platforms or furniture. I can imagine only using 4 might compress too much on anything but a small chair. I have a total of 22 isos on my two layer build, with 14 on the much larger bottom layer, and I have exactly one inch clearance after compression. So mine compress about 0.25” inch from the original 1.25” thickness; seems pretty good to me as they’re only squishing down 20%, and I get a lot of wobble in both layers.

Here’s an interesting addition to the Hudson hi-fi lineup on Amazon called the Big Foot; it’s similar size to the 2.5” hemisphere isos but with an extra 0.25” height; wonder how that unique structure would hold up over time versus the strength of a hemisphere under compression.
I saw the Bigfoot being offered also, but couldn't find the durometer rating at first glance. If it's 20-30 durometer it will work just fine. Those are actually more similar in shape to my 10 year old isolators that were used during BOSS development. Any pieces of rubber that are 20-30 durometer (not sorbothane as @Gorilla Killa discovered) will work OK. Sorbothane has too much "sorb" and not enough "urethane" in that mixture.

@peniku8 is even using rubber stoppers that can be found on Amazon....the kind you use to stop beakers and flasks in chemistry class. As long as they are 20-30 durometer, they will work.

Are you guys seeing compression of the actual Hudson isos over time? I was thinking the compression being reported was the carpet and carpet padding. I wouldn't suspect silicone at room temperatures to have that much set. If any of you have the Hudson's that have been under compression for a few months and have new Hudson's to compare, would be interesting to see a picture of the 2 next to one another.
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post #2519 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there a reason you guys aren’t looking at washer isolators? They use all kinds like these under washers to keep them from vibrating your floors.

Tons of styles, thickness and materials used so you can experiment away.

Some are cheap, some aren’t.... I’ve used them under my stereo gear for years.... I’m sure you could screw into them to attach to a platform, or put a bolt through them with a washer to hold them tight to it.



This is but an example. But it’s 1.5” thick...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01LY...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
If those rubber blocks are 20-30 durometer they will work just fine. Not so sure about the ones with cork in the pictures. Those look to be too stiff.

@Archaea posted a great illustration of the "floatiness" a properly isolated BOSS platform should have....the second and third examples in his video.

Here's his video:

https://imgur.com/gallery/CFnsSx4?s=sms

Last edited by trhought; 05-27-2019 at 09:30 AM.
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post #2520 of 2930 Old 05-27-2019, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Great news! Got the MB Quarts installed on the first row and popped in Mad Max Fury Road for a spin on some selected scenes. Very disappointing. Then I remember I had to run the MB Quarts out of phase. Holy Cow!!! Almost a night and day difference between the second row TR and first row TR! Watched the scene where they entered the sandstorm several times. Awesome!

Not so great news... Last night we watched How To Train Your Dragon 2 and it was a dud LFE-wise (with a couple of momentary exceptions but over all not much to write home about). Totally different movie than HTTYD 1. I really must learn how that BEQ stuff works... The bad news is I guess I'll have to adjust each channel for BEQ so in my setup that will be 4 channels (just for the BOSS speakers). Nine total if I adjust all the bass channels.
Wow brazensol. Thanks for the follow-up. Was wondering how the additional MBQuart's were working out. That's so awesome! Great to hear you have the full BOSS experience to offer in the front row and the mild version in the back row...very cool! Nicely done!
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