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post #2641 of 3702 Old 06-03-2019, 01:33 PM
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A few misc. questions & observations:

Why is it that it appears people are mainly interested in waveform amplitude when displaying graphs?

Has or can anyone overlay the original signal plot over their measured response plot? (I don't have a phone with an accelerometer).

Has or can anyone do an FFT or spectrum analysis of the system response to a white noise signal source and without EQ(flat) as well as with EQ applied?

Am I missing something, or is the amplitude gradient on the graphs shown, fairly course? If so, is it possible to increase resolution by limiting the sample range and taking multiple samples?

I would think that doing the above analysis with various isolators & configurations would be instructive.

On the opposite end of the (forgive my pun) "spectrum", I've made the following changes & done some seat of the pants(SOTP?) testing between changes, using a set of 4 common source materials: Bumblebee, Casino Royale('06), Avatar and Corea/Patitucci LaFiesta.
Removed "Superballs" & replaced with inner tubes. Removed 1 innertube from the mix (now 8). Varied the PSI. Replaced 1 S.ball.

The gyst of it is that my hovercouch is in 2 pieces forming an "L". The main section is ~7' x 4'. The "L" portion is ~6' x 3'. I placed all the JBL's & BK mini's in the main section. The baffle extends ~1' past that section to support one side of the "L" section, acting like a lever. The "L" section is suspended on 2 innertubes as well as 1 S.ball placed on the back corner acting as a fixed fulcrum. I found that this helps keep the 2 sections in synch. in all axis. I coupled the 2 sections together with a short piece of hard plastic pneumatic tube as a sleeve for a single 3" drywall screw. I drilled a hole in the baffle slightly larger than the sleeve & just dropped the sleeved screw in the hole. I'll add a 2nd screw if there proves a need, but thus far the innertubes are keeping things nicely in place.

To my surprise, there's now very little difference in sensation between the main & "L" sections of the hovercouch. They're coupled surprisingly well. I typically recline on it across both sections & notice no significant difference between them, other than the "L" section is a bit more subdued.

What I learned/confirmed, is that I was able to alter the resolution and response of the system by varying the air pressure. It's by no means perfect, but just messing around with it I found I had a range available between overdamping which created an overall muting sensation and underdamping(too stiff) condition which resulted in a resonant system, that became somewhat uncomfortable with rising Hz. Between these extremes, was found a happy medium.

The Corea tune I mentioned has a long acoustic bass solo at the start. I used to play that instrument for the better part of a couple decades, so I'm really familiar with how it "feels" to play it. As you might expect, the instrument resonates in sympathy with the pitches produced. What was really freaky, was that at one point when I was messing with the inner tube air PSI, I found a spot where my hovercouch felt exactly like my upright bass - only on my back & butt. It was as very strange sensation to say the least, but immediately recognizable - and rather wonderful!

BTW, If you haven't already done so, do check out the Bond flick. There's a ton a great ULF in that film.

My thinking when using the innertubes is that there will be a significant reduction in point load stress, creating a more uniform displacement of the baffle with minimal distortion.
The tubes are dirt cheap and offer adjustable response as I've said.
The tubes offer potentially greater range of motion and less coupling between planes than "conventional" isolators.
They're independently tunable for load. Since my GF & I are mainly the ones using the hovercouch, I was able to tune each side separately.
Their response in both compression & rebound is likely to be more linear than current Boss tech, which typically uses conical section (progressive rate) damping. IE. the more you displace the cones, the stiffer the response becomes. An argument could be made that this is desirable, however in performance vehicle suspension systems, technology has moved away from this thinking back towards linear spring technology to keep the wheels (couch) under control. Progressive rate springs are used as a shotgun approach to accommodate a wide variety of loads. My goal is to approach "critical damping" for the hovercouch to maximize its ability to reproduce it intended operational frequencies as accurately as possible while maximizing amplitude for a given energetic input.
FWIW, my approach to tuning it was similar to tuning the suspension on a motorcycle. I'd bounce up & down on it & vary the PSI until it felt a sufficient range of motion and experienced no more than 1 cycle of rebound. I had my GF do the same on her end.

FWIW, With my amp set to 1 O'clock, the Boss-hovercouch will shake the crap out of my house-3 rooms away, if I set LFE to 0db. I typically listen at 0db with the LFE set to -12db. Max on the MV knobs is ~5 O'clock with 119W RMS Max available per driver.

To keep the tubes in place around the JBL's, I drilled holes for zip ties to keep the tubes captive to the extent that they can't work their way under the speakers. The zip ties were kept fairly loose. I think thin soft rope/cord would be preferred, but I didn't have any of the proper size on hand.

If you want to go really deluxe, you could tie all the tubes together on a common air line into a single Schraeder valve, for ease of adjustment/refill. I found that it was so easy to remove & replace individual tubes, that I'm not going to bother with it as I planned.

I apologize for the less than scientific "data" provided. I realize that it's pretty much entirely anecdotal, but given the super low cost of the tubes & the ease of implementing them, I strongly encourage others to try them. I'm pretty damn happy with the results. YMMV

Happy Bossing
Happy Hovering
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post #2642 of 3702 Old 06-03-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Good news, it wasn’t actually the BOSS I was bottoming out during the EOT measurements today; bad news, it was one of my VNF drivers that I’m pretty sure is damaged now, hearing a little VC rub below 20Hz in a few scenes, lol. Dang it! I was pushing them harder and lower with DSP than intended, so it was only a matter of time. Safety first, but the BOSS is a workhorse!
Dang, now you have to fix it. It's "sad" and I'm sure it just a coincidence that this "accident" happens on the same day Nalleh posts his SLAPS results...
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post #2643 of 3702 Old 06-03-2019, 01:55 PM
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@Longeze Good work!

If you ever spring a BOSS leak, the first thing you need to do is figure out time travel, so you can go back and tell people your hover couch has a flat and that you’re from the future...they might have you committed, but here it’s just a cool idea! Lol

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post #2644 of 3702 Old 06-03-2019, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longeze View Post
A few misc. questions & observations:

Why is it that it appears people are mainly interested in waveform amplitude when displaying graphs?

Has or can anyone overlay the original signal plot over their measured response plot? (I don't have a phone with an accelerometer).

Has or can anyone do an FFT or spectrum analysis of the system response to a white noise signal source and without EQ(flat) as well as with EQ applied?

Am I missing something, or is the amplitude gradient on the graphs shown, fairly course? If so, is it possible to increase resolution by limiting the sample range and taking multiple samples?

I would think that doing the above analysis with various isolators & configurations would be instructive.
Longeze....great questions and basically, yes, there's been some discussions in the VibSensor thread about the original EOT signal and what it looks like after an FFT analysis. Below is the FFT of the signal for that time stamp straight from the disc.

Basically, if the ULF system is responding in a linear fashion, its response should look very similar.....i.e.; a linear increase in power as the square wave reduces in frequency in discrete 5Hz increments.

For our hobby, member @3ll3d00d has created an rpi based DIY vibrometer. Details about it are in the link below. There's also the VibSensor app (link below) which has given us hobbyist an accurate and easy method to measure the ULF TR response above 10Hz. Below 10Hz, the actual weight of the phone begins to introduce measurement error. But since the EOT demo scene ends at 10Hz, it's a pretty good signal to use when trying to characterize our ULF reproduction systems and comparing to the original EOT signal below.

The DIY vibrometer using rpi shouldn't have the 10Hz limitation since it's lighter in weight. However, I don't think anyone has actually tried it yet to my knowledge.

Regarding white noise, I believe there's similar FFT traces in the VibSensor app also for a 0-50Hz content signal and this signal can also be used to characterize and supplement the EOT signal when evaluating our ULF TR systems. Using both together gives a picture of how accurately our ULF TR systems are replicating the original signal, both with discrete content signals (EOT sample) and with mixed signals content which is more real-world (the 0-50Hz White Noise sample).

DIY vibrometer using rpi: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...n-meter-6.html

VibSensor Thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...st-thread.html

EOT FFT Analysis




Quote:
Originally Posted by Longeze View Post
My thinking when using the innertubes is that there will be a significant reduction in point load stress, creating a more uniform displacement of the baffle with minimal distortion.
The tubes are dirt cheap and offer adjustable response as I've said.
The tubes offer potentially greater range of motion and less coupling between planes than "conventional" isolators.
They're independently tunable for load. Since my GF & I are mainly the ones using the hovercouch, I was able to tune each side separately.
Their response in both compression & rebound is likely to be more linear than current Boss tech, which typically uses conical section (progressive rate) damping. IE. the more you displace the cones, the stiffer the response becomes. An argument could be made that this is desirable, however in performance vehicle suspension systems, technology has moved away from this thinking back towards linear spring technology to keep the wheels (couch) under control. Progressive rate springs are used as a shotgun approach to accommodate a wide variety of loads. My goal is to approach "critical damping" for the hovercouch to maximize its ability to reproduce it intended operational frequencies as accurately as possible while maximizing amplitude for a given energetic input.

FWIW, my approach to tuning it was similar to tuning the suspension on a motorcycle. I'd bounce up & down on it & vary the PSI until it felt a sufficient range of motion and experienced no more than 1 cycle of rebound. I had my GF do the same on her end.

FWIW, With my amp set to 1 O'clock, the Boss-hovercouch will shake the crap out of my house-3 rooms away, if I set LFE to 0db. I typically listen at 0db with the LFE set to -12db. Max on the MV knobs is ~5 O'clock with 119W RMS Max available per driver.

To keep the tubes in place around the JBL's, I drilled holes for zip ties to keep the tubes captive to the extent that they can't work their way under the speakers. The zip ties were kept fairly loose. I think thin soft rope/cord would be preferred, but I didn't have any of the proper size on hand.

If you want to go really deluxe, you could tie all the tubes together on a common air line into a single Schraeder valve, for ease of adjustment/refill. I found that it was so easy to remove & replace individual tubes, that I'm not going to bother with it as I planned.

I apologize for the less than scientific "data" provided. I realize that it's pretty much entirely anecdotal, but given the super low cost of the tubes & the ease of implementing them, I strongly encourage others to try them. I'm pretty damn happy with the results. YMMV

Happy Bossing
Happy Hovering
Your thought process is spot on. By controlling the inner tube pressure, the effective visco-elastic properties of the suspension system can be changed rather dramatically. That inner tube pressure combined with control of the speaker cavity pressure inside each inner tube (different tire diameters surrounding each JBL), can be used to customize the BOSS experience. One could probably write a thesis project just from the use of inner tubes and how the pressure and diameter of the inner tubes could be tuned to optimize the BOSS experience.

Just as a point of reference, during the initial BOSS development, I kept the suspension constant (20-30 durometer visco-elastic rubber). This was done to control the experiment and minimize the suspension variable. This allowed focus on other factors I was worried about most when looking at all the data being collected. there were 8 different accelerometers placed at different locations around the 4x8 sheet of plywood and all 8 were measuring simultaneously. This was done primarily to see what factors affected platform bending which I wanted to minimize to keep the BOSS response linear and natural.

There could easily be another set of experiments conducted looking at just the suspension factors outlined if one really wanted to chase further optimization of BOSS performance. I concluded going above 30-40 durometer has a largely negative impact on performance. But, I think there's a lot of runway left with experiments going below 20 durometer and the incremental benefits could be staggering in terms of TR sensitivity and power optimization. Then there's the hover-craft effect which could be yet another thesis by itself

BTW....it sounds like we may be cut from the same cloth so to speak. I have a Mechanical Engineering degree from General Motors Institute with specialties in Machine Design and Vehicle Dynamics.....pretty cool stuff! Far from what I'm doing today as a career, but it's still one of my passions and bubbles to the surface once in awhile with hobbies such as this
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post #2645 of 3702 Old 06-03-2019, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longeze View Post
A few misc. questions & observations:

It's by no means perfect, but just messing around with it I found I had a range available between overdamping which created an overall muting sensation and underdamping(too stiff) condition which resulted in a resonant system, that became somewhat uncomfortable with rising Hz. Happy Bossing
Happy Hovering
I agree this is something to be experimented with. Personally find the Hudsons to be underdamped in the 30 hz area, I enjoy the far field impact at that frequency so ive been trying different things. My 30 duro sorbothane were far to overdamped killing anything below 20hz completely. My recent switch to 70duro Sorbothane is a big improvement in both areas. Still letting the sub 20hz through and calming the 30hz area in a way that isn't so overwhelming.

dood's app is for the RPI, not for a phone.

8hz ULF TR for the masses and the Cashless. Like a BOSS


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post #2646 of 3702 Old 06-03-2019, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree this is something to be experimented with. Personally find the Hudsons to be underdamped in the 30 hz area, I enjoy the far field impact at that frequency so ive been trying different things. My 30 duro sorbothane were far to overdamped killing anything below 20hz completely. My recent switch to 70duro Sorbothane is a big improvement in both areas. Still letting the sub 20hz through and calming the 30hz area in a way that isn't so overwhelming.

dood's app is for the RPI, not for a phone.
Thanks Jeff for the bold.....my bad....corrected now. So the Sorbothane isos seem to be an improvement so far.....that's encouraging! Looks like Amazon has the Hudson's back in stock but if there's an alternate off-the-shelf option, that would be great. Always better for the consumer to have options.
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post #2647 of 3702 Old 06-03-2019, 05:41 PM
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@TRTHOUGHT - my Onkyo receiver is the 2nd receiver in the chain, getting an exact duplicate signal from the blu ray player, and only powers the wides and front heights. I have the LCR and surrounds set as full range, which allows me to set the subwoofer outs as strictly LFE.

I still get audible bass from my BOSSes, so i calibrate them with Audyssey to get the bass flat, then i turn the level way down for actual use.

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post #2648 of 3702 Old 06-03-2019, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^^ Thanks @SteveCallas for the details. Makes sense how you're getting straight LFE from the source material now using the sub outs and how you can set the LPF for LFE to 80Hz. Pretty clever!
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post #2649 of 3702 Old 06-03-2019, 08:18 PM
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Dang, now you have to fix it. It's "sad" and I'm sure it just a coincidence that this "accident" happens on the same day Nalleh posts his SLAPS results...

Haha, I really don’t want to take on another project any time soon, and I still have a backup 18” Marty cube I’m not using, so I think I’ll just slide the other VNF sub behind the MLP, plug in the cube and call it a day.

Ooooor I could look into a shorter PR build that would fit even closer on the VNF riser to add more TR slam above the BOSS’s wheelhouse. The matching Dayton 15” PR is only $120 and I have literally all the materials for another box lying around. Dang it man!

For now, the driver in question only made a couple mildly disconcerting sounds through two movies at reference with BEQ, so I’m just going to play it until it blows or annoys me further.

I’ll quit clogging up the BOSS thread today with my failed experiments, lol. Good luck and safe BOSSing everyone!

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post #2650 of 3702 Old 06-03-2019, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
If you ever spring a BOSS leak, the first thing you need to do is figure out time travel, so you can go back and tell people your hover couch has a flat and that you’re from the future...
LOL Thx 4 the props!

Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
..One could probably write a thesis project just from the use of inner tubes and how the pressure and diameter of the inner tubes could be tuned to optimize the BOSS experience...

..I think there's a lot of runway left with experiments going below 20 durometer and the incremental benefits could be staggering in terms of TR sensitivity and power optimization. Then there's the hover-craft effect which could be yet another thesis by itself

BTW....it sounds like we may be cut from the same cloth so to speak. I have a Mechanical Engineering degree from General Motors Institute with specialties in Machine Design and Vehicle Dynamics.....pretty cool stuff! Far from what I'm doing today as a career...
Thanks for the information. Very helpful & informative as always! My initial thought was to run a PID controller to find the critical damping pressure, but...so many hobbies, so little time I've learned to pick my battles more selectively these days. Nevertheless, we're definitely on the same page. I'm a serial inventor & can spot a kindred nut-job errr spirit(sry) at a 1000 paces - lol. I've always been intrigued by hovercraft, so I finally found an excuse to build one-lol.

I'd be interested to put some instrumentation on the hovercouch, but as a staunch flip-phone user, I might have to resort to an automotive data-logger to get some numbers. Since we wouldn't be using the same recording device, I'm not sure the data would be of much use to anyone other than myself and then only for relative measurements.

GM Institute huh - WOW!!! You kept pretty elite company that's for sure. Major kudos man! Not to stray "too" far off topic and at the risk of breaking the unwritten internet rule of etiquette, what do you do for a career? FWIW, I was a controls/automation engineer, so our disciplines are pretty closely tied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
I agree this is something to be experimented with. Personally find the Hudsons to be underdamped in the 30 hz area.. My 30 duro sorbothane were far to overdamped killing anything below 20hz completely. My recent switch to 70duro Sorbothane is a big improvement in both areas. Still letting the sub 20hz through and calming the 30hz area in a way that isn't so overwhelming...
Thanks for sharing your data points. Using REW & sweeps, the hovercouch responds well down to low single digits up through 50hz - from what I can tell.

The other thing that sprung to mind as a method of increasing system response, was to use magnetic suspension & hold the couch/chair captive with some slack cables anchored to the floor or steel plate below to keep it from drifting off the plate. It's not as nutsy as it first might "sound"(sry). Rather powerful ring magnets can be had for very reasonable $. X&Y response might suffer though. Food for thought - thought from food.

Thanks for your time you guys!
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post #2651 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longeze View Post

Thanks for the information. Very helpful & informative as always! My initial thought was to run a PID controller to find the critical damping pressure, but...so many hobbies, so little time I've learned to pick my battles more selectively these days. Nevertheless, we're definitely on the same page. I'm a serial inventor & can spot a kindred nut-job errr spirit(sry) at a 1000 paces - lol. I've always been intrigued by hovercraft, so I finally found an excuse to build one-lol.

I'd be interested to put some instrumentation on the hovercouch, but as a staunch flip-phone user, I might have to resort to an automotive data-logger to get some numbers. Since we wouldn't be using the same recording device, I'm not sure the data would be of much use to anyone other than myself and then only for relative measurements.

GM Institute huh - WOW!!! You kept pretty elite company that's for sure. Major kudos man! Not to stray "too" far off topic and at the risk of breaking the unwritten internet rule of etiquette, what do you do for a career? FWIW, I was a controls/automation engineer, so our disciplines are pretty closely tied.
I'm in consumer goods....started in product engineering and earned a few patents as we were launching new products. Then the company I work for started building plants around the world and I thought that would be cool to live and work in different regions before we started having kids. So, my wife and I spent some time living abroad as I helped start-up overseas operations. After that, we ended up back in the states and I landed in Sales with the same company. I'm still an engineer at heart and like applying the sciences whenever the opportunity presents itself, which is often in my field, but Sales is more exciting because it's always something new every day helping customers with their needs.

Regarding the experiments with your BOSS hover couch, yes, if you have access to data loggers and other professional gear, that's the way to go and usually more accurate with more bandwidth available than gear the average hobbyist uses. I actually used B&K equipment when developing and testing the basic BOSS principles. Like you said, that data probably isn't useful to anyone else but it certainly helped identify directionally any changes that were made and kept those changes heading towards the end goal.

Speaking of hover crafts, the company I work for had an Engineering Explorer's post back in the day. Fresh out of college, I was ̶r̶̶e̶̶c̶̶r̶̶u̶̶i̶̶t̶̶e̶̶d̶ suckered into helping lead that program with local high school students wanting to learn more about Engineering. We actually built a working hovercraft. In hindsight it was a great time. I need to find some of those old pictures.

It was basically a 4'x4' platform built out of several layers of construction foam glued together. Very sturdy, rigid, and light weight. We had a lawn mower engine that provided both thrust and hovering pressure below. To balance the engine/fan weight, we bolted a chair on the opposite end of the platform so an average 13-15 year old's weight would counterbalance the engine weight. It worked surprising well, but was pretty slow. We would have needed about 10x more power to have respectable thrust. The kids were having fun nonetheless as they were floating up and down the vacant parking lot at one of the local high schools......the good ole days!
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post #2652 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Yesterday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
so I think the double riser works pretty well, and I’m going to just enjoy it all and quit tinkering for a long while this time I swear.
Today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
The matching Dayton 15” PR is only $120 and I have literally all the materials for another box lying around. Dang it man!
This IS AVS after all.....it can't be avoided....

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post #2653 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 08:53 AM
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^^^^^^ LMAO …yes the force is strong (love that pic too)!!!! I’ve lost count of the times I’ve said "I’m done now and just gonna enjoy" hahahaha. In fact, I think I just said it the other day in my latest update. Even though I feel I really meant it, we’ll see how long that lasts LOL. AVS is awesome in so many ways but can be EVIL in ways too if you let it suck you in, which is almost impossible to not let it do often times
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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
...4 driver BOSS operational....VibSensor tests with EOT upcoming.
Did a few VibSensor tests with EOT & using a 5 lb bag of protein on the phone. I quickly learned why I don't want to be using my old Sony ES4300 AVR using the multi-channel inputs. It's rated @ 100 watts/channel.

I did three tests. Started with 120hz, then reduced to 60hz & lastly at 30hz using 24db-LW for all 3. MV on the Denon driving the system @ -25db with Dynamic EQ on @ 10db ref-offset. Volume on the ES4300 driving the 4 JBL's at reference level, 0db.
Each test bottomed the JBL's. Each progressively harder the lower the crossover. The drivers didn't hit hard but it was audible.

Point here to note - now I understand the importance of using an amp such as the Behringer with DSP to set a peak limiter to control the wattage being given.
Decision time for either the Nx3000 or the Nx1000. I'm sure the 1000 would suit my needs. Is anyone else using the 1000 model to share feedback? Or is the 3000 by far and above the better decision?
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post #2655 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
Did a few VibSensor tests with EOT & using a 5 lb bag of protein on the phone. I quickly learned why I don't want to be using my old Sony ES4300 AVR using the multi-channel inputs. It's rated @ 100 watts/channel.

I did three tests. Started with 120hz, then reduced to 60hz & lastly at 30hz using 24db-LW for all 3. MV on the Denon driving the system @ -25db with Dynamic EQ on @ 10db ref-offset. Volume on the ES4300 driving the 4 JBL's at reference level, 0db.
Each test bottomed the JBL's. Each progressively harder the lower the crossover. The drivers didn't hit hard but it was audible.

Point here to note - now I understand the importance of using an amp such as the Behringer with DSP to set a peak limiter to control the wattage being given.
Decision time for either the Nx3000 or the Nx1000. I'm sure the 1000 would suit my needs. Is anyone else using the 1000 model to share feedback? Or is the 3000 by far and above the better decision?
Kevnmin....Thanks for the update on your BOSS setup so far and for the VS traces. They look great! The most important thing is to use a filter setting that feels the best.

Regarding the power, have you tried just reducing the volume setting on the ES4300 to a point where the JBL's won't bottom using the EOT clip and some of your other favorite bass demo scenes. This is all I'm doing with my non-DSP BOSS amplifier and it works OK.

If you'd rather control power via DSP, my vote would be for the NX3000D since the price difference isn't that much when compared to the NX1000D and you'll have power on tap for other future projects.
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post #2656 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 01:04 PM
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This IS AVS after all.....it can't be avoided....

Lol, yep. I’m not sure how many times I’ve said in the last year that I’m done, but the BOSS concept really got me started again!

Since last summer, I’ve built three subs, two BOSS’s, new entertainment console, and now possibly a VNF dual sub box with PR’s...and then I’m done! Haha, of course not. But I don’t want to spend all my time this summer on projects, going to get some sand between my toes, drink a few beers, and play with my boys. And also maybe, possibly, probably build some more stuff in my spare time!

Started researching PR builds and there’s a lot of my old nemesis (math) involved calculating the tuning frequency, but I think I’ll aim for a little higher around 30-40Hz and up to bring back more of that awesome midbass slam that got me hooked on nearfields. It’s odd that I like the numbers, statistics, and figures for this hobby, but my brain doesn’t enjoy the process getting there and like to leave it up to you professional engineer type peoples.
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post #2657 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 01:26 PM
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I think I’ll aim for a little higher around 30-40Hz and up to bring back more of that awesome midbass slam that got me hooked on nearfields.
That would be crazy good now that you already reach your ULF nirvana. I wish my Behringer 1200D MBMs can play cleaner at higher spl. You might want to research more about midbass chest slam, it is probably higher than 40hz, somewhere in the 55ish hz?
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post #2658 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
Did a few VibSensor tests with EOT & using a 5 lb bag of protein on the phone. I quickly learned why I don't want to be using my old Sony ES4300 AVR using the multi-channel inputs. It's rated @ 100 watts/channel.



I did three tests. Started with 120hz, then reduced to 60hz & lastly at 30hz using 24db-LW for all 3. MV on the Denon driving the system @ -25db with Dynamic EQ on @ 10db ref-offset. Volume on the ES4300 driving the 4 JBL's at reference level, 0db.

Each test bottomed the JBL's. Each progressively harder the lower the crossover. The drivers didn't hit hard but it was audible.



Point here to note - now I understand the importance of using an amp such as the Behringer with DSP to set a peak limiter to control the wattage being given.

Decision time for either the Nx3000 or the Nx1000. I'm sure the 1000 would suit my needs. Is anyone else using the 1000 model to share feedback? Or is the 3000 by far and above the better decision?

Wow, your VS readings look really awesome!

DEQ can really bloat the bottom end, and using it is the only time (aside from yesterday) I’ve heard terrible noises from my subs when running it safely around their limits. I’ve ran the EOT intro and a lot of other content frequently to the power limit with over 130w per JBL and haven’t damaged these little guys or heard them really bottom yet, just occasional couch chuffing during demanding, quiet ULF scenes.

With 100w/channel, which I’m assuming is rated x2 channels in stereo, spread equally across 4 JBL’s they should each receive a lot less power than the 80w max recommendation, but your VS graphs indicate they’re definitely getting a healthy amount for that much TR.

If you’re still hearing bad noises at high volumes, you could possibly be clipping the input/output here as well the way you’re setup, as that’s easy to do with the super hot EOT intro with more links in the signal chain. Back it down a good 3dB as soon as you hear it, and your BOSS should be safely set for crazy hot 10Hz and anything else you can throw at it.

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post #2659 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
That would be crazy good now that you already reach your ULF nirvana. I wish my Behringer 1200D MBMs can play cleaner at higher spl. You might want to research more about midbass chest slam, it is probably higher than 40hz, somewhere in the 55ish hz?

Darn blown nearfield driver, guess I better scrap two boxes and build a whole new contraption!

Haha, I never thought I’d be going back to an MBM build, but here we are. I’ve read all the MBM threads, and I had a pair of those 1200D’s for over a year and they really brought the midbass TR, and are actually what got me into nearfields; but as you said they can sound a bit muddy/bloated at high output levels and are hard to calibrate for optimal TR as such. I decided to go with a more full range build for my two VNF’s, because people swore by the added TR they brought all the way down, and they do help with that. But MA’s + BOSS just crush anything in the ULF territory and make a full range nearfield driver seem unnecessary now.

I’ll quit clogging up Tim’s thread and make a build thread when I get started for help with the PR tuning.
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post #2660 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 01:56 PM
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just occasional couch chuffing during demanding, quiet ULF scenes.
LOL. Haven't heard that before

I don't even know how much power I was pushing my 8 drivers boss (8ohms) at 1PM gain position on my 3000D. I have not heard any bad noise at all from them. Honestly, I am a bit scare of having TOO MUCH TR cranking the gain up pass 1PM. Perhaps, I will test my boss limit out some day.

How does the Peak Limiter works on the 3000D? Say if I set it at -4dBfs (126.2Vp, 996W for 8 ohm load), does that mean my power at 1PM gain is now less than the power with the peak limiter engaged? or my power is increased as the gain is increased up to near its max gain setting?

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post #2661 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 02:37 PM
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How does the Peak Limiter works on the 3000D? Say if I set it at -4Bfs (126.2Vp, 996W for 8 ohm load), does that mean my power at 1PM gain is now less than the power with the peak limiter engaged? or my power is increased as the gain is increased up to near its max gain setting?

Since the gain knobs on the front are signal attenuators and not providing actual boost, you can really set it anywhere you prefer with the power limit in place as long as you’re not riding the limiter all the time but still tickling a few of the LED’s and getting adequate TR to your liking. I just use a really powerful infrasonic scene with 10Hz material and when it tickles the limiter I back it down a hair until it’s only a few times in a movie and not staying in the red but for brief instances, but as long as it’s not clipping no real worries with the power limit set. You can watch the signal in real time through the iNuke software to give you a picture of where you stand for clipping versus power limit. That’s how I’ve always done it anyway, and haven’t damaged anything yet. The EOT intro yesterday doesn’t count, because I had that sub running beyond its native tuning with DSP.

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post #2662 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 03:02 PM
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I am biased so make of it what you will but it has always surprised me that almost no one has picked up the opportunity to use a more accurate vibration measurement device.

Using an rpi here is not so friendly but at least the data is reasonably reliable. You would think someone, in this large world of people who like data, would run with it.

In case it is not clear, my experience says VS is a crude approximation at best. Accessible though so easy to get started.
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post #2663 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 04:01 PM
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I am biased so make of it what you will but it has always surprised me that almost no one has picked up the opportunity to use a more accurate vibration measurement device.

Using an rpi here is not so friendly but at least the data is reasonably reliable. You would think someone, in this large world of people who like data, would run with it.

In case it is not clear, my experience says VS is a crude approximation at best. Accessible though so easy to get started.
Ive had one sitting on my desk for over 2 months still in the box. The reason i bought it was to try out your app, going to be a rainy day project at some point.
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post #2664 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 04:54 PM
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I am biased so make of it what you will but it has always surprised me that almost no one has picked up the opportunity to use a more accurate vibration measurement device.

Using an rpi here is not so friendly but at least the data is reasonably reliable. You would think someone, in this large world of people who like data, would run with it.

In case it is not clear, my experience says VS is a crude approximation at best. Accessible though so easy to get started.
Yeah I really should build one, and had plans to do so, just never got it done …shame on me. Then I stopped VSing for a long while there but got it back out when the BOSS came along. Yeah I’m sure it’s more accurate and no weight needed would definitely be cool. The phone is so convenient and easy though, and with repeatable results, even if not totally accurate IMO, at least in the 10-30hz area, as I think we’ve kinda discussed and found a while back in the VS thread days when it was going strong. Even if it may be a bit crude and or inaccurate, it’s still great for timing issues and seeing if you’ve got any big peaks or valleys in your TR IMO. I’m sure your RPI would do a way better job though. Will it do a better job on the singles when other frequencies are in play along with it too? Now that that would be cool for sure!

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post #2665 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 04:55 PM
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...Regarding the power, have you tried just reducing the volume setting on the ES4300 to a point where the JBL's won't bottom using the EOT clip and some of your other favorite bass demo scenes. This is all I'm doing with my non-DSP BOSS amplifier and it works OK.
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...DEQ can really bloat the bottom end, and using it is the only time (aside from yesterday) I’ve heard terrible noises from my subs when running it safely around their limits. I’ve ran the EOT intro and a lot of other content frequently to the power limit with over 130w per JBL and haven’t damaged these little guys or heard them really bottom yet, just occasional couch chuffing during demanding, quiet ULF scenes.

With 100w/channel, which I’m assuming is rated x2 channels in stereo, spread equally across 4 JBL’s they should each receive a lot less power than the 80w max recommendation, but your VS graphs indicate they’re definitely getting a healthy amount for that much TR.

If you’re still hearing bad noises at high volumes, you could possibly be clipping the input/output here as well the way you’re setup, as that’s easy to do with the super hot EOT intro with more links in the signal chain. Back it down a good 3dB as soon as you hear it, and your BOSS should be safely set for crazy hot 10Hz and anything else you can throw at it.
My avr I'm using to power them is a 7 channel with selections of either 8 or 4 ohms. I set it to 4 ohms and using 4 channels so each JBL is getting the full 100 watts.
Sounds like its worth turning DEQ off, reduce volume of the AVR and slowly come back on the volume to get the happy medium. I'm just a bass head by nature and starting too aggressive.

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post #2666 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 05:08 PM
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Would anyone running an iNuke DSP be willing to share their settings? I looked at my PEQ settings and it looks random but feels ok. I am curious how others have theirs set as I understand how the high pass and low pass settings work but not how the LS and HS filters are supposed to work. Anyone care to educate me? Also, are people boosting specific frequencies in the PEQ settings?


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post #2667 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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My avr I'm using to power them is a 7 channel with selections of either 8 or 4 ohms. I set it to 4 ohms and using 4 channels so each JBL is getting the full 100 watts.
Sounds like its worth turning DEQ off, reduce volume of the AVR and slowly come back on the volume to get the happy medium. I'm just a bass head by nature and starting too aggressive.
Kevnmin....Thanks for the additional info. If your AVR is like most, the impedance selector is there for one purpose only.....to pass the required agency testing. For this testing the AVR manufactures use the 4 ohm setting. This limits the amount of current that can go through the amplifier to keep its temperature low to pass agency testing. AVR manufacturers provide the 4 ohm option only for passing this testing certification and it normally limits the amplifier power considerably.

You should select the 8 ohm setting. This will allow your amp to provide the full power it was designed to provide. The bottoming phenomena you're experiencing could just be a result of the amplifier self-limiting its power rather than the drivers actually bottoming.

Below is a link to a great article about this setting and why you should always use the highest setting in the AVR....make sure to watch the youtube video also. Great stuff that every AV enthusiast should know.

Once you select the 8 ohm setting, start with the volume around -15dB and watch the EOT clip at reference and see how the JBL's respond. They should be moving pretty violently when playing this scene but also very much in control with no unusual noises. Continue to raise the volume in 5dB increments and play the scene again. Continue this until you think you have things dialed in and feels good without any unusual noises. Then try a few more scenes....the War of the Worlds - Pods Emerge scene is a great one if you have it. It also lasts about 10 minutes with reference quality bass throughout so it allows for a lot of time for fine tuning while that scene is playing.

Once the BOSS is dialed in using a few favorite bass scenes, you shouldn't have to mess with the Sony main volume setting any more.

Turning off DEQ is probably a good idea on the Sony since DEQ only works in conjunction with the main volume of the Sony. Since that main volume will always be constant once you get the BOSS dialed in, DEQ really won't be doing much. Whichever option you select, on or off, just keep it that way and all will be good.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-am...ector-switch-1
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post #2668 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 06:14 PM
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Also, a quick note on amplifier power. According to all the S&V bench tests, a lot of AVR’s drop to 50-70% of their stated power for 2 channel when driving 5 channels or more. So a 100w per channel receiver might only deliver roughly 50-70 watts more or less into 5-7 speakers, maybe a tad more power into 4 or fewer drivers. There are other factors that are important, but the price/quality of the receiver does impact this to an extent with the upper tier models delivering closer to their rated specs across 5-7 channels than lower end AVR’s that might advertise 100w x 7 channels.

Still plenty of power for these JBL’s, but I don’t think most receivers would be in danger of providing too much power to a typical BOSS setup with 4 or more speakers, especially with decreased power supplied in the ULF band.

Here’s an example for my receiver: https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...iew-test-bench
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post #2669 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 07:24 PM
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Apologies in advance for this off-topic post. Unless your username is trhought, there's nothing to see here... move along...
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...started in product engineering and earned a few patents ...spent some time living abroad as I helped start-up overseas operations... landed in Sales... helping customers with their needs.

...if you have access to data loggers and other professional gear.. I actually used B&K equipment when developing and testing the basic BOSS principles.

Speaking of hover crafts, ...I was ̶r̶̶e̶̶c̶̶r̶̶u̶̶i̶̶t̶̶e̶̶d̶ suckered into helping lead that program with local high school students wanting to learn more about Engineering. We actually built a working hovercraft...It was basically a 4'x4' platform built out of several layers of construction foam glued together. Very sturdy, rigid, and light weight...The kids were having fun nonetheless as they were floating up and down the vacant parking lot at one of the local high schools......the good ole days!
Great stuff! Guys with your backgrounds end up running the show. I do have pro DA gear & lab equipment - HP, Fluke etc. B&K is always the gold standard-nice! Excuse the saliva..

Your hovercraft sounds awesome - well done man! I had a plane that was built with foam core wings - I won't tell Rutan you stole his fire

Early on I did some presentations on automation in the local schools. Seeing the enthusiasm the kids were showing for it and at a science teachers' prodding, I made a preliminary call to the Unified school systems' science director about creating an interdisciplinary robotics program, possibly with competitions between schools, before writing a formal proposal. This was early 1980's. About 30 seconds into the call, when I got to the part about integrating various subject matter & disciplines, she hung up on me - lol. I see now that I should have approached her about creating a hovercraft program - DUH!!!
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post #2670 of 3702 Old 06-04-2019, 09:19 PM
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I am biased so make of it what you will but it has always surprised me that almost no one has picked up the opportunity to use a more accurate vibration measurement device.

Using an rpi here is not so friendly but at least the data is reasonably reliable. You would think someone, in this large world of people who like data, would run with it.

In case it is not clear, my experience says VS is a crude approximation at best. Accessible though so easy to get started.


I have had plans to build one but never got to it. It is definitely on my to do list.

Display 2013 Samsung 75" UN75F6300 TV Media Xbox One X, Dune Solo, QNAP TS-453A NAS
Pre/Amp Marantz 7702mk2 Processor + DIY 11ch Icepower 50ASX2BTL Monoblock Amp Amp Build Link
7.2.4 Speakers DIYSG 1099s (LCR), Volt 10LX (SL, SR), Volt 8LX (BL, BR), Volt 10LX (TF, TR) Volt Build Link
Subs Dual 19Hz DIY Ported UXL-18s + FP14k Amp + MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced Tactile Crowsons + iNuke 6000DSP
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