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post #2671 of 2935 Old 06-04-2019, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I am biased so make of it what you will but it has always surprised me that almost no one has picked up the opportunity to use a more accurate vibration measurement device.

Using an rpi here is not so friendly but at least the data is reasonably reliable. You would think someone, in this large world of people who like data, would run with it.

In case it is not clear, my experience says VS is a crude approximation at best. Accessible though so easy to get started.


I have had plans to build one but never got to it. It is definitely on my to do list.

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post #2672 of 2935 Old 06-05-2019, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Longeze View Post
Apologies in advance for this off-topic post. Unless your username is trhought, there's nothing to see here... move along...

Great stuff! Guys with your backgrounds end up running the show. I do have pro DA gear & lab equipment - HP, Fluke etc. B&K is always the gold standard-nice! Excuse the saliva..

Your hovercraft sounds awesome - well done man! I had a plane that was built with foam core wings - I won't tell Rutan you stole his fire

Early on I did some presentations on automation in the local schools. Seeing the enthusiasm the kids were showing for it and at a science teachers' prodding, I made a preliminary call to the Unified school systems' science director about creating an interdisciplinary robotics program, possibly with competitions between schools, before writing a formal proposal. This was early 1980's. About 30 seconds into the call, when I got to the part about integrating various subject matter & disciplines, she hung up on me - lol. I see now that I should have approached her about creating a hovercraft program - DUH!!!
Longeze....no problems with the off-topic post, the subject of building enthusiasm in STEM for future engineers and scientists is always welcome in this thread.

I chuckled when I read about your reflections on an alternate approach with the science director. Been there It's so easy for us engineers to jump right into the "how-to" without creating the enthusiasm and interest ahead of time by introducing the "what's-in-it-for-me".

Sounds like you were just about 30 years ahead of the times.....with all the commercialization of automation and robotics these days, Robot Wars for example, it would be much easier to create the "what's in it for me" case now.
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post #2673 of 2935 Old 06-05-2019, 10:16 AM
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Yeah, timing is everything I was still living in an altruistic fantasy-land back then, harboring delusions that we were all after similar educational & societal objectives.
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post #2674 of 2935 Old 06-05-2019, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
I am biased so make of it what you will but it has always surprised me that almost no one has picked up the opportunity to use a more accurate vibration measurement device.

Using an rpi here is not so friendly but at least the data is reasonably reliable. You would think someone, in this large world of people who like data, would run with it.

In case it is not clear, my experience says VS is a crude approximation at best. Accessible though so easy to get started.
I've been wanting to do it but haven't had any time. Schedule has been crazy lately. I've had very little time. It took me a week and half to just plug in the Diva that I bought. Hopefully things lighten up a little bit soon. I want to get to it and a boss/VNF upgrade on the hardware side. Then I have a new feature for BEQd half done that's mainly for Aron and myself for the xml files and then once that's done I can get back to the Browser app. Can we insert a couple extra weeks into the year for this stuff?

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post #2675 of 2935 Old 06-05-2019, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
I've been wanting to do it but haven't had any time. Schedule has been crazy lately. I've had very little time. It took me a week and half to just plug in the Diva that I bought. Hopefully things lighten up a little bit soon. I want to get to it and a boss/VNF upgrade on the hardware side. Then I have a new feature for BEQd half done that's mainly for Aron and myself for the xml files and then once that's done I can get back to the Browser app. Can we insert a couple extra weeks into the year for this stuff?
Wait?!?!!....what about the BOSS-Sac massage app! Just kiddin' Things indeed have gotten busy this year. Guess it's better than the alternative.......

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post #2676 of 2935 Old 06-05-2019, 04:12 PM
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Wait?!?!!....what about the BOSS-Sac massage app! Just kiddin' Things indeed have gotten busy this year. Guess it's better than the alternative.......
See! I'm so backed up that I can't even keep track of everything I need to do!
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post #2677 of 2935 Old 06-05-2019, 05:03 PM
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Here is a pic of my TR sled V2 with the SLAPS downfiring



Tore it down and here is todays work, 4x JBL in cantilever on TR sled. V3 then .....



Never done, LOL.
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post #2678 of 2935 Old 06-05-2019, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Here is a pic of my TR sled V2 with the SLAPS downfiring

Tore it down and here is todays work, 4x JBL in cantilever on TR sled. V3 then .....

Never done, LOL.
Wow....looks great Nalleh! I like the creative use of the VNF box to power the BOSS SLAPS. Very cool......and the shaker potential

Will be interesting to see how the 4 JBL platform pictured compares to the 4 opposed JBL module you built earlier and how that compares to the 18" MEGA BOSS. Mind officially blown!

One thing just occurred to me......if I understand the SLAPs box correctly, it looks like it was originally a 4 hole box with 2 JBL's removed and covered with a baffle and the SLAPS PR is in the bottom. From the picture it appears VNF could be optimized if the 2 holes in the top could be filled with the JBL's and the baffle moved to the bottom of the box. Maybe it's just an optical illusion from the picture or maybe it's not possible with this arrangement for other reasons....I don't know but your BOSS sled is proving to be quite the TR test vehicle!

That's off the charts in more ways than one I'm sure
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post #2679 of 2935 Old 06-05-2019, 05:47 PM
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^^ Thanks Tim
Actually the JBL/PR VNF/BOSS combo box is one of the top performer so far in my TR quest Even compared to the SI18!

Yes, you are correct on the VNF box, the reason i blocked the upper holes is IF it turns out i am using the SI18 for BOSS duty, i need a higher shelf to mount the VNF on, and in that case the JBL‘s fit better in the lower holes=more in the chest area. And the block of plate is only screwed on, so i can reconfigure if needed. I just have a couple more options to try out before i make a final combination of the best results

And actually this version will be 4x JBL pr seat. The older version with push and pull was 4 total, ie 2 pr seat

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post #2680 of 2935 Old 06-05-2019, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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^^ Thanks Tim
Actually the JBL/PR VNF/BOSS combo box is one of the top performer so far in my TR quest Even compared to the SI18!

Yes, you are correct on the VNF box, the reason i blocked the upper holes is IF it turns out i am using the SI18 for BOSS duty, i need a higher shelf to mount the VNF on, and in that case the JBL‘s fit better in the lower holes=more in the chest area. And the block of plate is only screwed on, so i can reconfigure if needed. I just have a couple more options to try out before i make a final combination of the best results

And actually this version will be 4x JBL pr seat. The older version with push and pull was 4 total, ie 2 pr seat
Wow......more than the 18"!! That's some impressive shaker potential per dollar considering the cost of 2 JBL's + the box + the SLAP when compared to one of the 18's. Very nice!

Makes sense now about the location of the JBL's and the block plate.....always thinking ahead

Gottcha on the 4 per seat now vs. the 2 per seat in push/pull. Sounds like the VNF/SLAPs BOSS is going to be hard to beat but I guess you never know until you try. 4 JBL's is 716 grams so it may give the SLAPs a run for the money

So awesome! Really looking forward to learning more about your comparison results and your final BOSS sled configuration! If there can ever be any finality in this hobby of ours.......this IS AVS after all.
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post #2681 of 2935 Old 06-05-2019, 09:31 PM
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^^Yeah, funny thing is the SI18 has the lowest mms of the 3 versions for cantilever BOSS.
SI18HT mk1=416grams mms.
SLAPS M12= 289grams mms(with no mass other than the bolt)+ the included mass of 255grams= 544 grams mms total(it also has the highest Xmax of 4 ! inches ).
4x JBL= 716 grams mms.

There are more info in my thread if anyone wants more

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post #2682 of 2935 Old 06-06-2019, 05:19 AM
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Holy carp @Nalleh, that is awesome and inspiring all in the same post!
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post #2683 of 2935 Old 06-06-2019, 06:13 AM
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On the NX3000D, when low-passing, which filter and slope are recommended: Butterworth, Bessel, or Linkwitz-Riley? Thanks
Any take on this? Thanks.
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post #2684 of 2935 Old 06-06-2019, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^^^ Hey @tvuong I don't use DSP but I see the LR 12 db/octave filter mentioned the most from members who are using DSP with their BOSS setups and have reported their settings. Having said that, don't be afraid to try different slopes 24 db/oct or even the different filter types to see if any feel better than the others. Of course, the frequency setting of the LPF will likely have the biggest effect.....more so than the filter type or the slope.

I think with TR, the filter type, slope, frequency and Q settings really depend a lot on each individual setup and personal preferences.

By individual setup, I mean seating frame construction (metal or wood), leather seats, cloth seats, cushion softness, etc....these all can dramatically effect the TR that's actually felt by the butt So, a filter that works best for one member may not work at all for another member with different seating.

Additionally, some members are reporting different filter settings for different source material.....i.e.; music has one filter setting, and movies use another filter setting. Just pick a few favorite movie demo scenes and start playing around with the different filters to see what feels best.....hopefully you'll find one setting that feels the best for any of the demo scenes.

If you're into music also, do the same with some of your favorite songs that you are very familiar with and see if the same filter feels OK for music also.

That's the power of DSP.....it can be used to dial in a very custom experience. Some members love having all those dials to turn and fine tune. Others, like me, just like to set and forget. If you're a set and forget type of person, just experiment until you find a filter that feels the best for all material and enjoy.

However, if you like to tweak and tune, that's what the DSP is there for and fortunately, it's very easy to accomplish without much work if you like to experiment.
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post #2685 of 2935 Old 06-06-2019, 12:33 PM
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Any take on this? Thanks.
The LR rolls off quicker, the Butterworth will be+3db at crossover. LR filter is made from cascading Butterworth filters. You can use either, it's a preference thing really. You are shaping the response, no different than a LS,HS or PEQ. I wouldn't get caught up in the minutia of that for what we are doing here.

That said I'm using a -24db LR @36hz

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post #2686 of 2935 Old 06-06-2019, 01:54 PM
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Thanks Tim and GK,
Most folks use LR so I am going to stick with that. I agree and doubt I can tell the difference on BOSS.
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post #2687 of 2935 Old 06-06-2019, 08:52 PM
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I added two more isos and accompanying set of furniture sliders to each BOSS platform, bringing each one up to 6, and not only did the wiggliness improve, but the gap between the platform and floor increased slightly, so it’s a win win.

When i lifted the platform and compared the existing hudson isos to the brand new ones, it’s clear that they had not deformed, but rather, the furniture slider foam had compressed a lot.
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post #2688 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I added two more isos and accompanying set of furniture sliders to each BOSS platform, bringing each one up to 6, and not only did the wiggliness improve, but the gap between the platform and floor increased slightly, so it’s a win win.

When i lifted the platform and compared the existing hudson isos to the brand new ones, it’s clear that they had not deformed, but rather, the furniture slider foam had compressed a lot.
Steve.....Thanks for the update.....great to know the clearance reduction wasn't from the silicone isolators but rather the furniture slider foam. Silicone is pretty tough stuff and stable, especially at room temps.

If the additional furniture sliders are the same as the originals, I would suspect they will also compress (sag) over time, just at a slower rate due to the lower force. If they've been replaced with more rigid furniture sliders, then the only sag I would suspect over time would be the carpet and the carpet padding.

The only way to totally eliminate sag would be to go down to the base floor by cutting through the carpet and padding, but that's pretty extreme. If it were me, I would just continue to compensate for the sag over time by adding height to the furniture slider/silicone sandwich with shim stock from your local hardware store. Keep adding the shims until your carpet and padding have reached max compression and no more shims will need to be added.

Then, you can replace all those shims with a permanent piece of scrap wood or something else of similar thickness when measuring all the shims together.
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post #2689 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 08:48 AM
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So at the current state of prices on drivers, what is the best bang for the buck? I will be doing a cantilever single mini platform for a 4 seat single row couch with an Inuke 3000dsp as an amp. what is the general consensus on best bang for the buck? I was leaning towards 4 12" JBLs but haven't seen them go on sale. please share your thoughts on 3 vs 4 drivers or 12" vs 15"
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post #2690 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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So at the current state of prices on drivers, what is the best bang for the buck? I will be doing a cantilever single mini platform for a 4 seat single row couch with an Inuke 3000dsp as an amp. what is the general consensus on best bang for the buck? I was leaning towards 4 12" JBLs but haven't seen them go on sale. please share your thoughts on 3 vs 4 drivers or 12" vs 15"
Hey Keith.....good question. Wal-mart on-line is selling the JBL's at $49.99 each right now. Even at that price it's hard to beat the shaker potential of 3 or 4 of these when comparing dollars per shaker potential to other drivers including the 15" and 18" BOSS drivers other members have tried.

What I mean by shaker potential, just take the moving mass of the driver (MMS) and multiply by the Xmax of the driver. That product is what I call the shaker potential for 1 driver. So, if you wanted to compared different shaker potentials of different drivers that will help.

Then, just divide the shaker potential by the price of the driver to get a shaker potential comparison per dollar spent.

Using the above comparison method, you can start to make informed decisions about your cantilever BOSS design and how much you want to spend for the added shaker potential. That shaker potential can be added through multiple JBL's, multiple 15's, multiple 18's, etc. The cost of each approach will be different depending on what kind of prices you can get for each of the driver types, but the end experience will be roughly the same if the shaker potential is the same.

For example, with a cantilever BOSS like yours, you have flexibility of using bigger drivers if desired. if the shaker potential of 4 JBL's is the same as the shaker potential of 2 15's, but the 2 15's cost 25% more than the 4 JBL's, I would go with the 4 JBL's. And, vice-versa...if the 2 15's are lower cost than the 4 JBL's, then I'd go with the 2 15's.

The other thing to consider is the power.....If someone didn't want to buy another amplifier but rather use a spare stereo amplifier on hand, I'd probably lean towards the Dayton 15's in a cantilever design since they only use 20-30 watts each compared to the JBL's 80-100 watts each. It wouldn't make sense to use the 4 JBL's and save $50 on the drivers when you have to buy an Behringer amp for $250 to power them. It would make more sense to spend a bit more on the 15 drivers and use the spare amplifier you have on hand.

Lots of different options and it really depends on your goals....if you want to have DSP capability and want to buy a Behringer anyway, then it's probably just a driver decision at that point and you don't have to worry about the power differences since you'll have power on tap for either driver decision.

Also, one disclaimer for all the above.....make sure your BOSS platform is rigid. If only using 1 layer of 3/4" plywood, then I wouldn't recommend more than 4 12" openings and no more than 3 15" openings in it. If you need more openings, then I'd recommend going with 2 layers of 3/4" plywood screwed and glued. Also, follow the special instructions for placement of the isolators in a cantilever design as prescribed in the hyperlink in Post 29.
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post #2691 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 09:38 AM
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@Keith
I feel like the JBl's are still the best bang for the buck at the 40 something dollar range. However, I dont think anyone has compared the end product in a apples to apples like setup. I can tell you that I am very happy with the 15" daytons, I have 4 under a huge sectional and they can get violent enough for me. The other nice thing is that they feel very accurate with no dsp added(edited to clarify that no house curve or dsp added beyond beq to restore bass). I have plans to tune it a bit but haven't really felt the need yet. Attaching the EOT intro for example.

All that said about violent and just yesterday I was looking under the couch to see where I could fit more drivers! Craziness

Also Tr is a much faster typist than I am, see above
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post #2692 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 11:05 AM
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Latest version of TR Sled

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post #2693 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 12:18 PM
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I have been following the BOSS thread for quite a while. Great comments and recommendations from all participating! I already have a miniDSP 2x4 HD and am using BEQ.   I am very interested in a mini-riser BOSS application as the next step.

I have 3 Seatcraft power recliners with pre-installed Soundshakers.

I was wondering if anyone else have Seatcraft power recliners and if so, are you are able to use a single 3/4” plywood layer or did you have to go with a double layer?

I would use the MB Quart drivers for a smaller driver profile but not certain that they will work with a single layer. I can easily remove the Soundshakers (they are kinda weak!) but they are positioned at the left side of each chair and the center of the chair is where there is not much room. I really do not want to do major surgery on the chairs.

Thanks in advance.

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post #2694 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 12:25 PM
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Would there be any merit to a 90 degree attachment? Gussets for stiffness only in the image, not enclosure. 4 JBL 12" drivers (one per seat), placed as VNF but open baffle for mass moving horizontally instead of fighting gravity?. Would you get any benefit of partial velocity for TR off the cones without adding SPL to the room?
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post #2695 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Would there be any merit to a 90 degree attachment? Gussets for stiffness only in the image, not enclosure. 4 JBL 12" drivers (one per seat), placed as VNF but open baffle for mass moving horizontally instead of fighting gravity?. Would you get any benefit of partial velocity for TR off the cones without adding SPL to the room?
Hey Keith......good question. I can certainly say the effect won't be as natural or deliver a TR experience as great as the horizontal BOSS arrangement.

I say this for a couple reasons 1) ULF naturally comes from below us as the earth's crust is floating on magma. When our bodies feel the earth move below us, our bodies sense that something pretty significant just happened and warns us. Those feelings of fight or flight are evoked and heighten the TR sensations we're feeling. 2) the PV effect that one gets from VNF's is due to the wave of air particles the driver is creating close to our bodies. We're feeling those waves due to the velocity of those air particles being accelerated and decelerated past our bodies and the force it imparts as a result. The problem with generating PV with open baffle is the wave gets cancelled. Basically the back wave cancels the front wave so there's both minimum SPL from the canceled wave and also minimum PV from the canceled wave.

Having said that, the configuration you show will certainly deliver ULF TR, but it won't feel as natural nor will it delivery as much PV for VNF effects as a traditional driver in a box mounted in that configuration.

For the best of both world's, something like Nalleh's setup could be employed having a cantilevered BOSS platform to deliver natural horizontal TR (and some X and Y TR also), then supplement that with sealed VNF boxes directly behind your seats.

In addition to the VNF PV he's getting from the sealed box, he also has a passive radiator on the bottom of that VNF box (called SLAPS) that also works in the horizontal plane supplementing the cantilevered BOSS effect. So, basically that box is not only delivering the VNF PV (because it's sealed) but also supplements the BOSS up and down motion with the passive radiator in the bottom of the box. This adds to the natural ULF TR the BOSS is known for while also providing PV from behind plus any additional X-Y shaking from the VNF subs moving back and forth.
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Last edited by trhought; 06-07-2019 at 01:15 PM.
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post #2696 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I have been following the BOSS thread for quite a while. Great comments and recommendations from all participating! I already have a miniDSP 2x4 HD and am using BEQ.   I am very interested in a mini-riser BOSS application as the next step.

I have 3 Seatcraft power recliners with pre-installed Soundshakers.

I was wondering if anyone else have Seatcraft power recliners and if so, are you are able to use a single 3/4” plywood layer or did you have to go with a double layer?

I would use the MB Quart drivers for a smaller driver profile but not certain that they will work with a single layer. I can easily remove the Soundshakers (they are kinda weak!) but they are positioned at the left side of each chair and the center of the chair is where there is not much room. I really do not want to do major surgery on the chairs.

Thanks in advance.

Nick
Hey Nick.....welcome aboard and glad you found us! Looking forward to having another BOSS family member soon. I don't have the Seatcraft seats and maybe someone who does can weigh in to help with your situation.

If not, you may be able to mock up a cardboard model or find a tupperware or plastic bowl that's close to the size of the JBL's and/or the MBQuart's. Once you have that bowl or bowls, you can start to experiment.

Simply tilt the back of your chair up and place the bowl underneath in an area that seems like it would fit best. Then slowly lower the chair until it hits the bowl. When that happens, just measure the distance from the bottom of one of the back feet to the floor. That distance will be the approximate thickness needed for your BOSS platform.

Hope this helps.
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post #2697 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 01:25 PM
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Thank you.....man this is fun, isn't it
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post #2698 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 01:34 PM
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Thanks for the quick response Tim. Great idea. I will check the distance this weekend using Tupperware bowls.

Nick
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post #2699 of 2935 Old 06-07-2019, 07:53 PM
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^^ 7hz baby
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post #2700 of 2935 Old 06-08-2019, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^^ looks great Tony! Bet that 7 Hz feels even better!
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