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post #2761 of 2930 Old 06-14-2019, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by EricE View Post
Thanks tvuong. Had this version of the theatre since 2003 and now I'm planning on a major reno HT 2.0 in a few months. BOSS and height speakers.

Thanks to Tim and his BOSS idea, I've had to delay the reno just to try it out! I was having thoughts of going for an IB sub system but my wife wasn't too happy with having even more vibration upstairs.
EricE.....sorry for the delay in your renovation plans Hopefully the BOSS will help with WAF especially if the IB system can be avoided. Those systems do indeed make for very unpleasant experiences in other parts of the house while the BOSS is quietly doing it's job and not heard or felt until you sit down on it

Looking forward to learning more about your plans for HT2.0 and how you intend to add height speakers. I'm currently looking at layout options for height speakers in our theater also and am leaning towards an Auro setup. Mostly because of the great reviews of its upmixing capability with not only movies but also music. Also, the speaker placement isn't as intrusive for our theater layout....they can be hidden in our acoustically transparent soffits rather easily. Still trying to figure out where to place the VOG though....
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post #2762 of 2930 Old 06-14-2019, 06:04 PM
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@trhought , sat thru the mini Boss set up and watched World War Z, pretty cool. Be even better once I get an inuke with DSP, next on my radar.
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post #2763 of 2930 Old 06-15-2019, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
@trhought , sat thru the mini Boss set up and watched World War Z, pretty cool. Be even better once I get an inuke with DSP, next on my radar.
Another great movie recommendation! Our kids were soooo into zombies back in the day when this came out. They couldn't wait for this release. We're going to have to watch it again. I can only imagine what the BOSS will bring to the experience now! Looking forward to it.
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post #2764 of 2930 Old 06-15-2019, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Hey Nick.....good question about either design approach. Both will work fine and neither approach will adversely affect your BOSS experience. As long as the platform is kept rigid and moves up and down uniformly, your BOSS design will deliver a great experience with either a thicker platform or taller legs.

It's more a matter of aesthetics and goals for how you want the final product to look. Some folks don't mind a thick platform and it can actually look like it's part of the furniture if finished properly.

For the bold above.....the extra weight of the platform won't impact the BOSS performance. The extra weight will actually improve the BOSS system natural frequency on paper by reducing it a few Hz which is a step in the direction of goodness. But, whether that small difference in natural frequency performance gain can be noticed is TR delivered to the butt is debatable.

The taller furniture legs will work just as well also. It really depend on what kind of look you're after.

Just keep the platform design rigid and your BOSS will deliver the natural ULF TR that it's known for with authority. You'll be surprised how violent the BOSS can be when needed while also delivering subtle nuanced ULF TR effects in more quiet scenes. Your overall movie and music experience will be enhanced considerably with your BOSS.
I was able to find some 2” Thermoplastic Rubber Feet to replace my original .5” feet on my chairs. Ordered them yesterday and they were delivered today since the distributor is in southern CA. I installed them this afternoon. This should give me the clearance I need for the MB Quart subs which should be delivered next week.

If anyone is interested, the manufacturer is Budwig. The url is http://budwigmoldedproducts.com.
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post #2765 of 2930 Old 06-15-2019, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post

I have them under my washing machine - they are rock solid with no bounce at all - so I would say they wouldn't work



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post #2766 of 2930 Old 06-16-2019, 11:44 PM
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Since I can't source cheap JBLs or equivalents here in Oz would it work to run 9 drivers of lesser specs under my 3 seater ?
If so what sort of XMAX and MMS should I aim for to get a good result ?


On a side note did you know that Mr Thiele of Thiele-Small Parameter fame is also an Aussie

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post #2767 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niterida View Post
Since I can't source cheap JBLs or equivalents here in Oz would it work to run 9 drivers of lesser specs under my 3 seater ?
If so what sort of XMAX and MMS should I aim for to get a good result ?


On a side note did you know that Mr Thiele of Thiele-Small Parameter fame is also an Aussie <img src="https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/AVSForum/smilies/tango_face_grin.png" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />
Hey niterida. That's pretty cool about Mr. Thiele being from Australia! Just read a bit of history about him....quite a bio and background.

The baseline BOSS has 3 JBL's on a 4x8 foot platform. For an equivalent BOSS design using different drivers, a target of 6444 g*mm should be the goal.

The 6444 number is simply the JBL MMS of 179g times the 12mm Xmax equals 2148. Since there's 3 drivers, multiply that number times 3 drivers equals 6444.

So if you can fit 9 drivers, just divide the 6444 by 9 and that will be your goal for 1 alternate driver.....or 716 g*mm

So, if the alternate driver has an Xmax times MMS of 716 or better, it will deliver a great BOSS experience when using 9 of them.

If you narrow your search down to a few drivers, just let me know what those are. I'll model in WinISD to double check the frequency response and determine how much power each will need for your BOSS platform.

With 9 drivers, just make sure your platform is very rigid with that many holes cut into it. As always, for the BOSS platform to deliver a great experience, it needs to be very rigid so it moves as one piece and doesn't bend and take energy away from your butt &#x1f642;

Last edited by trhought; 06-17-2019 at 07:41 AM.
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post #2768 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 08:05 AM
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Is there a different spec that can be looked at if a driver doesn't report its' mms?
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post #2769 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 08:36 AM
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post #2770 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 09:59 AM
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The Hideaway Theater

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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
Go to the next level and get the B&C, you won't regret it.

For Father’s Day, I treated myself to a new orbital sander...and this little 21” LaVoce driver to replace the current nearfields.


Ricci just finished posting his data on the B&C 21DS115 and the LaVoce 214.50, so I went with the latter as they’re virtually identical aside from the easier amp requirements for the B&C; the LaVoce is a steal for $130 less! Spent the weekend doing box designs, haven’t quite decided yet, but will start a thread in a bit.
@trhought Curious how a pair of Dayton 390HO-4 would be in a BOSS. Probably not a lot better as the BOSS pertinent specs aren’t much higher than the JBL’s. Need to repurpose them elsewhere, and I might even take the back 3 JBL’s off the BOSS to make room for a larger VNF box.
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Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
Video: Epson 3700; Screen: Silver Ticket 106" High Contrast

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post #2771 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Ferguson View Post
Is there a different spec that can be looked at if a driver doesn't report its' mms?
If Mmd (mass of diaphragm and coil only) is reported, that will work.

Mms can also be calculated if I have the other T/S parameters.
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post #2772 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Keith Ferguson View Post
Keith. Thanks for bringing this driver to my attention. On paper, it indeed does look like a very capable BOSS driver with its higher Mms and Xmax.

I'll model later today with a comparison to the baseline JBL's to confirm.

At about $50 each, the price is perfect for a BOSS!

Will confirm soon.
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post #2773 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 01:07 PM
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Any thoughts on the Blaupunkt GBW120 sub as a possible BOSS option? Currently $25 at Walmart!...

https://www.blaupunkt.com/uploads/tx...bwoofer_UM.pdf
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post #2774 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 02:43 PM
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Anyone who has compared a cantilevered boss platform to a underseat boss platform - care to compare?


I'm sure it's in the thread here, but it's gotten so long and if anyone knows where such a comparison might be off the top of their head I'd appreciate the timesaving pointer.
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post #2775 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by deano86 View Post
Any thoughts on the Blaupunkt GBW120 sub as a possible BOSS option? Currently $25 at Walmart!...

https://www.blaupunkt.com/uploads/tx...bwoofer_UM.pdf
Hey deano86.....That $25 Blaupunkt looks like it may be a good JBL surrogate if you can fit 4 of them. It will take about 4 to equal 3 of the JBL's. Below are the technical details.

With an Mms multiplier of .73x (131g vs. 179g) combined with an assumed Xmech of 1.0x (15mm vs. 15mm) it has a shaker potential of .73 when compared to one JBL. So it would take about 4 to equal the standard baseline 3 JBL platform.

The Xmax is assumed because I couldn't find any published Xmech data but found a pretty cool youtube video linked below. I'm just guessing the Xmech is equivalent to the JBL based on the displacement seen when looking at the "t" on the dust cap during the video when it was moving rather nicely.

Also, below is the WinISD model showing a similar frequency response to the JBL and also a similar power of 80 watts will be needed to reach the assumed Xmech of 15mm......red is the Blaupunkt and blue is the JBL.

If you try this driver, please let us know if it works.....a $25 driver would be a great alternative to the baseline JBL even if 4 of them would be needed to equal 3 JBL's.

Youtube video of Blaupunkt GBW120 Subwoofer in Action


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post #2776 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Ferguson View Post
Edit------the 346 Mms value reported by Cerwin Vega in the link above is erroneous, it calculates to be 111g-----

Below is the updated technical information for this driver in a BOSS configuration.

With an Mms multiplier of .62 (111g vs. 179g) and a Xmax multiplier of 1.2 (17.8mm vs. 15mm), the Cerwin Vega has a shaker potential of .74x of 1 JBL. So, it would take about 4 Cerwin Vegas to equal 3 of the JBL's.

The good news is it only takes about 15 watts to reach Xmax. So, it won't take much power at all for a BOSS application. Below is the WinISD model which also shows a similar frequency response when compared to the JBL. Red is the Cerwin Vega and Blue is the JBL.


Last edited by trhought; 06-19-2019 at 07:33 AM.
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post #2777 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Wow, the movie Don’t Breathe + BOSS = sledge hammer to the couch! This is such a ridiculous bass track already, but the swift and visceral impact of a lot of the bass presentation in this movie with the BOSS literally feels like someone is hitting my seating with a jack hammer. One of my new favorites for a BOSS demo!

Running the LPF @35hz 12dB/slope is my preference (need to try a negative HSF out still)

@trhought As you just mentioned, I’m noticing so many more layers to the ULF now more than ever with the BOSS. The MA’s opened my eyes up the the deep bass TR I was missing, but the BOSS takes it to a whole new level.

Borrowed from the bass thread:


You have a LS at 35hz or you are crossing over at 35hz with a 12 dB slope?


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post #2778 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Keith....I think this may indeed be the BOSS unicorn

With an Mms multiplier of 1.9x (346g vs. 179g) and a Xmax multiplier of 1.2 (17.8mm vs. 15mm), the Cerwin Vega has a shaker potential of 2.3x of 1 JBL

At $53 each.....that's quite the BOSS potential.

And, the icing on the cake, it only takes 15 watts to reach Xmax. So, it won't take much power at all for a BOSS application. Below is the WinISD model which also shows a favorable frequency response when compared to the JBL.

Please let us now if you decide to use some of these in your BOSS design.

On paper, it looks like an outstanding BOSS driver for only $53!

They are on their way....should be here on Sat.

I will drive them off one channel of a 3000dsp, do you have any setting I can start with? voltage limit? any other protective settings or EQ?
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post #2779 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post

@trhought Curious how a pair of Dayton 390HO-4 would be in a BOSS. Probably not a lot better as the BOSS pertinent specs aren’t much higher than the JBL’s.
Hey Sekosche.....the Dayton 390HO-4 15" has an Mms multiplier of 1.78x (319g vs. 179g) and an Xmax multiplier of 1.0x (12mm vs. 12mm) for a shaker potential of 1.78x of 1 JBL. So 2 of the Dayton 390HO 15's would equal 3.6 of the JBL's.

It only takes about 50 watts to reach Xmax with the Dayton's and the frequency response is favorable for a BOSS. Its behavior is peaky under 10Hz and rolls off naturally over 10Hz.

Below is the WinISD model.....red is the Dayton 390HO-4 15 inch and blue is the JBL.

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post #2780 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
You have a LS at 35hz or you are crossing over at 35hz with a 12 dB slope?

I meant to say I need to try out a negative low shelf filter to replace the normal low pass filter, mistyped HSF in that comment, @Nalleh or @SBuger mentioned it in one of their threads I think. I’m running a 35Hz LPF still on the BOSS.

Going to take the oldest to see Godzilla: King if the Monsters tomorrow, so tonight we’re watching Godzilla (2014) while the baby sleeps with just the BOSS and near field subs on, and it’s still pretty darn awesome at -20mv versus using LFE containment.

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post #2781 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
I meant to say I need to try out a negative low shelf filter to replace the normal low pass filter, mistyped HSF in that comment, @Nalleh or @SBuger mentioned it in one of their threads I think. I’m running a 35Hz LPF still on the BOSS.

Going to take the oldest to see Godzilla: King if the Monsters tomorrow, so tonight we’re watching Godzilla (2014) while the baby sleeps with just the BOSS and near field subs on, and it’s still pretty darn awesome at -20mv versus using LFE containment.


I would certainly want to see what these guys are running in their minidsp. May be they can post their filters and crossovers here.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
Speakers: PSA MTM-210 L/C/R - Klipsch 250S Surrounds, PSA MT 110sr Rear Surrounds, 4 x SVS Prime Elevation for Atmos
Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #2782 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Keith....I think this may indeed be the BOSS unicorn

With an Mms multiplier of 1.9x (346g vs. 179g) and a Xmax multiplier of 1.2 (17.8mm vs. 15mm), the Cerwin Vega has a shaker potential of 2.3x of 1 JBL

At $53 each.....that's quite the BOSS potential.

And, the icing on the cake, it only takes 15 watts to reach Xmax. So, it won't take much power at all for a BOSS application. Below is the WinISD model which also shows a favorable frequency response when compared to the JBL.

Please let us now if you decide to use some of these in your BOSS design.

On paper, it looks like an outstanding BOSS driver for only $53!
346g seems quite high especially given the entry level status of this sub. Their bigger better beefier subs are all only around 180 and their 10" ones drop to 110. I suspect that might be a typo and should really be 146g. I tried to send Cerwin-Vega a message but I think my employer is blocking it - can someone else check with them to make sure ?
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post #2783 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Anyone who has compared a cantilevered boss platform to a underseat boss platform - care to compare?

I'm sure it's in the thread here, but it's gotten so long and if anyone knows where such a comparison might be off the top of their head I'd appreciate the timesaving pointer.
Hey Archaea..... @carp comes to mind. If I recall correctly, his front row has cantilevered BOSS platforms while his back row is more the traditional under-the-seat BOSS arrangement....both his front row and his back row are using the same JBL's if I recall correctly.

Others who have both the cantilevered and under-the-seat arrangements have different drivers in both from what I recall. So, it may be hard to compare apples to apples.

If anyone has experience with both cantilevered and under-the-seat, please weigh in with impressions of each.
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post #2784 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niterida View Post
346g seems quite high especially given the entry level status of this sub. Their bigger better beefier subs are all only around 180 and their 10" ones drop to 110. I suspect that might be a typo and should really be 146g. I tried to send Cerwin-Vega a message but I think my employer is blocking it - can someone else check with them to make sure ?
Great point about this driver possibly being an outlier when compared to its siblings. If anyone can confirm the actual Mms for this driver, I'll re-do the WinISD model and comparisons to the JBL accordingly.
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post #2785 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Hey Sekosche.....the Dayton 390HO-4 15" has an Mms multiplier of 1.78x (319g vs. 179g) and an Xmax multiplier of 1.0x (12mm vs. 12mm) for a shaker potential of 1.78x of 1 JBL. So 2 of the Dayton 390HO 15's would equal 3.6 of the JBL's.



Thanks a lot! I forgot the JBL’s had 179 mms was thinking 279 earlier, so the 390HO does have a good extra chunk of weight. I’m hoping to keep all the rear boss drivers in play after the new nearfield sub build is done, but I might chop a foot off the back of the platform if necessary, but hoping it’ll fit perfectly.
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Subs: PSA V1801 x2, DIY: 18" RSS460HO, 15" RSS390HO x2, BOSS w/JBL CX1200 x6
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post #2786 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deano86 View Post
Any thoughts on the Blaupunkt GBW120 sub as a possible BOSS option? Currently $25 at Walmart!...

https://www.blaupunkt.com/uploads/tx...bwoofer_UM.pdf
I have some of these drivers, and visually the xmax seems to be at least 3/4” one-way. They are actually impressive drivers for $25 shipped.

I also found some really soft (as soft or softer than the Hudson isolators), cheap too!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/24-pack-of-...72.m2749.l2649
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post #2787 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by zora View Post
I have some of these drivers, and visually the xmax seems to be at least 3/4” one-way. They are actually impressive drivers for $25 shipped.

I also found some really soft (as soft or softer than the Hudson isolators), cheap too!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/24-pack-of-...72.m2749.l2649
Did you direct compare the Hudson with that pack of isolators? I don't see a durometer rating (not that I'm sure I'd be too trusting of one if there was one).

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post #2788 of 2930 Old 06-17-2019, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Did you direct compare the Hudson with that pack of isolators? I don't see a durometer rating (not that I'm sure I'd be too trusting of one if there was one).
No direct comparison yet, but my unofficial hand test indicates that they are in the 20 duro range - maybe a bit lower. Two stacked is only around 1 1/2” and is quite “jiggly.”
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post #2789 of 2930 Old 06-18-2019, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Anyone who has compared a cantilevered boss platform to a underseat boss platform - care to compare?
I have. I started with JBL’s under the seat, didn’t like it that much, continued with a SI18" mk1 under the seat, liked i a bit better, then moved it to cantilever, LOVED IT, but the height was cumbersome, so changed to 4x JBL’s(pr seat) cantilever and it is awsome! Both cases, JBL’s and SI18" worked better in cantilever.

I think it might be because cantilever excites both Y and Z-axis, more of a rocking motion, as opposed to a normal BOSS mounting, which is more concentrated on z-axis only.

Movement combining more axis tends to feel more violent than a bigger movement in just one axis.

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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
I meant to say I need to try out a negative low shelf filter to replace the normal low pass filter, mistyped HSF in that comment, @Nalleh or @SBuger mentioned it in one of their threads I think. I’m running a 35Hz LPF still on the BOSS.

Not a negative LOW shelf, a negative HIGH shelf, like the bottom pic here:



The theory is that a LPF introduces a delay, while a negative high shelf doesn’t. And they both perform a similar purpose.
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post #2790 of 2930 Old 06-18-2019, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I have. I started with JBL’s under the seat, didn’t like it that much, continued with a SI18" mk1 under the seat, liked i a bit better, then moved it to cantilever, LOVED IT, but the height was cumbersome, so changed to 4x JBL’s(pr seat) cantilever and it is awsome! Both cases, JBL’s and SI18" worked better in cantilever.



I think it might be because cantilever excites both Y and Z-axis, more of a rocking motion, as opposed to a normal BOSS mounting, which is more concentrated on z-axis only.



Movement combining more axis tends to feel more violent than a bigger movement in just one axis.









Not a negative LOW shelf, a negative HIGH shelf, like the bottom pic here:







The theory is that a LPF introduces a delay, while a negative high shelf doesn’t. And they both perform a similar purpose.


Thanks for sharing. I was a bit surprised to see your crossover at 80hz with a 12db slope. You must get a ton of teeth chattering TR with that high of a crossover? This is your BOSS crossover right? Also what is the impact of the negative HPF at 40hz? It emphasizes the frequencies below 40? Thx


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
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Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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