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post #2791 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Thanks for sharing. I was a bit surprised to see your crossover at 80hz with a 12db slope. You must get a ton of teeth chattering TR with that high of a crossover? This is your BOSS crossover right? Also what is the impact of the negative HPF at 40hz? It emphasizes the frequencies below 40? Thx


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Those setting are not for my BOSS, it’s for the JBL nearfields. I just found that pic to show how the negative HIGH SHELF looked like. I use a 40 hz LPF on my BOSS.

A NEGATIVE HIGH SHELF and a LPF does kind of the same thing, they reduce content above the set frequency, it’s just different ways of doing it

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post #2792 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Those setting are not for my BOSS, it’s for the JBL nearfields. I just found that pic to show how the negative HIGH SHELF looked like. I use a 40 hz HPF on my BOSS.



A NEGATIVE HIGH SHELF and a HPF does kind of the same thing, they reduce content above the set frequency, it’s just different ways of doing it


Ah that makes sense. I though 80hz was too high. what kind of slope are you using? 12db? I am going to try the negative peak filter in my 2x4 HD. At the moment I have a moderately rising house Curve for the BOSS starting at about 50hz using a combination of LS and Peak filters but all in the positive.


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post #2793 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 07:15 AM
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^^ The settings are in the pic, 40hz, -12dB, Q1.2.

But you are of course free to test and use whatever settings you prefer

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post #2794 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
^^ The settings are in the pic, 40hz, -12dB, Q1.2.



But you are of course free to test and use whatever settings you prefer


Sorry I was asking about the BOSS crossover and slope.


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post #2795 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Sorry I was asking about the BOSS crossover and slope.


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Yes a 40hz LPF with 12dB slope.

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post #2796 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
I meant to say I need to try out a negative low shelf filter to replace the normal low pass filter, mistyped HSF in that comment, @Nalleh or @SBuger mentioned it in one of their threads I think. I’m running a 35Hz LPF still on the BOSS.
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
I would certainly want to see what these guys are running in their minidsp. May be they can post their filters and crossovers here.


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Here's mine for the BOSS and Crowsons MAs. Yep I replaced my LPFs with negative High Shelf filters.

BOSS (well more like a sub riser that produces SPL too since its setting on the floor with no iso's and is basically sealing it, but still morphed from the BOSS platform )

LPF used to be set at 30hz with 12 db/oct slope, now it is set to a negative HS at 34hz/-10db/Q 0.9. That is all, no LS:



Crowson MAs

LPF used to be set at 24 hz with 12 db/oct slope, now it is set to a negative HS at 30hz/-10db/Q 0.9. I do use an LS in addition on the MAs though and it's set to 15hz/+3db/Q 0.9 :



With lots of testing on both of these BOSS and MAs settings with a variety of good bass movie demo material, this felt best in conjunction with the subs. The negative HS in place of the LPFs made a pretty substantial difference in feel for me, I think mainly because of what Nalleh was saying, it introduces more negative delay vs the LPFs, but still looks similar on the curve it creates. This in conjunction with the subs, it just feels more clean, dynamic and punchy, giving a more violent and overall better feel. I think it mainly just makes all components (FF sub, NF/FF subs, VNF subs, BOSS and MAs) work together better timing wise, at least on my system, I think Nalleh's as well.
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post #2797 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 08:08 AM
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^^^ Yup, i agree Shelby. And thanks for providing pics of the settings
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post #2798 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Here's mine for the BOSS and Crowsons MAs. Yep I replaced my HPFs with negative High Shelf filters.



BOSS (well more like a sub riser that produces SPL too since its setting on the floor with no iso's and is basically sealing it, but still morphed from the BOSS platform )



HPF used to be set at 30hz with 12 db/oct slope, now it is set to a negative HS at 34hz/-10db/Q 0.9. That is all, no LS:







Crowson MAs



HPF used to be set at 24 hz with 12 db/oct slope, now it is set to a negative HS at 30hz/-10db/Q 0.9. I do use an LS in addition on the MAs though and it's set to 15hz/+3db/Q 0.9 :







With lots of testing on both of these BOSS and MAs settings with a variety of good bass movie demo material, this felt best in conjunction with the subs. The negative HS in place of the HPFs made a pretty substantial difference in feel for me, I think mainly because of what Nalleh was saying, it introduces more negative delay vs the HPFs, but still looks similar on the curve it creates. This in conjunction with the subs, it just feels more clean, dynamic and punchy, giving a more violent and overall better feel. I think it mainly just makes all components (FF sub, NF/FF subs, VNF subs, BOSS and MAs) work together better timing wise, at least on my system, I think Nalleh's as well.


Thanks Shelby. I am clear on the PEQ filters. What crossover are you using? I think you were using 20hz with 12db slope?


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post #2799 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
A NEGATIVE HIGH SHELF and a HPF does kind of the same thing, they reduce content above the set frequency, it’s just different ways of doing it
You meant Negative HS and a LPF does the same thing?
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post #2800 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
You meant Negative HS and a LPF does the same thing?


This is what Shelby said:

The negative HS in place of the LPFs made a pretty substantial difference in feel for me, I think mainly because of what Nalleh was saying, it introduces more negative delay vs the LPFs, but still looks similar on the curve it creates. This in conjunction with the subs, it just feels more clean, dynamic and punchy, giving a more violent and overall better feel. I think it mainly just makes all components (FF sub, NF/FF subs, VNF subs, BOSS and MAs) work together better timing wise, at least on my system, I think Nalleh's as well.


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post #2801 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Thanks Shelby. I am clear on the PEQ filters. What crossover are you using? I think you were using 20hz with 12db slope?


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No prob Ray. Well, no crossover now actually in the settings under the crossover tab in the mini, as I now have the LPF (as well as the HPF) BYPASSED. But, I did used to have the LPF set to 30hz with 12db slope for the BOSS and at 24hz with 12db slope on the Crowson MAs. Now, the new settings with the negative HS are at 34hz/-10db/Q 0.9 that replace the old LPF settings on the BOSS (LPF now is Bypassed in the crossover settings tab) and the negative HS at 30hz/-10db/Q 0.9 replace the old LPF settings on the Crowsons MAs. So, its still basically getting a crossover setting with the HS at around 30ish hz with those settings for hz/db/ and Q, while giving it a rising house curve as well from high to low as well, kind of like the LPF (crossover was doing). Hopefully all that made sense.

** Also a point to note here: I just realized that I was saying HPF instead of LPF that I was using to cut/rolloff the high frequencies on BOSS and MAs to show in my filters above in the miniDSP. So I actually meant LPF, not HPF (my brain doesn't always let me say what I meant to say sometimes LOL). I'll go back and edit that to hopefully avoid any confusion if you didn't catch that and for anyone who may have not seen the post yet.

But the negative HS compared to the LPF makes the timing different. This is the main difference here. An LPF introduces about 6-7 ms delay (IIRC) for the 12db/oct slope (and more as the slope is increased (i.e: 18db/oct, 24db/oct and so on, as Nalleh showed over in the MA thread a while back). With the negative HS, you don't get this added delay, so more negative delay (or said another say, fires faster rather than later with the negative HS).

Delay is kind of confusing and hard to think about at first when you start dealing with the miniDSP in the chain and setting delays within it (or even the DSP in your amps) vs the delay in the AVR. Its the exact opposite actually. We had a big discussion on this a while back as well with a handful of us (Aron, Alan P, Nalleh, me and a few others) that took a while to make sense of. The brain just seems to have a hard time grasping it at first, but when the light finally go on, its like 'Ah Ha', now I get it LOL
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post #2802 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
This is what Shelby said:

The negative HS in place of the LPFs made a pretty substantial difference in feel for me
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Understand. Was just trying to correct Naleh’s post I quoted that he said HPF instead of LPF
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post #2803 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 09:43 AM
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^^ lol ..yeah I did the same thing in my post and just now went back and edited it. Darn LPF and HPF, to easy to say the wrong one sometimes if your not really paying attention when you start using a lot in posts.
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post #2804 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
^^ lol ..yeah I did the same thing in my post and just now went back and edited it. Darn LPF and HPF, to easy to say the wrong one sometimes if your not really paying attention when you start using a lot in posts.


I will go back and read your post again as I am confused now.


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post #2805 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 09:54 AM
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I will go back and read your post again as I am confused now.


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Ray, basically when you asked ‘what is your crossover setting?’ The answer is the negative gain HS filter that Sbuger and Naleh posted. So negative gain HS = LPF = crossover you said.
Clear as mud?
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post #2806 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Ray, basically when you asked ‘what is your crossover setting?’ The answer is the negative gain HS filter that Sbuger and Naleh posted. So negative gain HS = LPF = crossover you said.

Clear as mud?


Yeah. its confusing cause the minidsp has a crossover setting with slope and PEQ filters. So I am not clear on the settings for each they are using so I need to go back and read what they said again. Hey, I have come a long way thanks all of you guys.


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post #2807 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 09:57 AM
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I will go back and read your post again as I am confused now.


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Sorry Ray, darn it, I had a feeling that post might confuse. BUT, i think you caught it though, and changed what I said to read right as LPF instead of what I had originally wrote 'HPF' (should have been LPF). I had meant to write LPF (high cutoff). That is what I went back and edited. So, it's right in your post HERE where you quoted me. Sorry man, just know I meant LPF (high cutoff) in that first post of mine with the filter pics (its fixed now since I edited it).

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^^ If I understand correctly, Sbuger and Naleh only use Negative gain HS and nothing is set in the xover.
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post #2809 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 09:59 AM
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Yeah. Seems like it. I love experimenting and trying new stuff you all teach me


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post #2810 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Yeah. its confusing cause the minidsp has a crossover setting with slope and PEQ filters. So I am not clear on the settings for each they are using so I need to go back and read what they said again. Hey, I have come a long way thanks all of you guys.


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No worries, it'll all start making more sense, it just takes some time sometimes with all this stuff. It really can be confusing, especially at first. Heck even after you've messed with it for a while, it can still be hard to get straight in you mind sometimes. We've all been there, and still sometimes struggle. It's all good though, we are all here to help each other

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post #2811 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 10:04 AM
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You meant Negative HS and a LPF does the same thing?
Uhh, yes, correct. I edited the post

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post #2812 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ If I understand correctly, Sbuger and Naleh only use Negative gain HS and nothing is set in the xover.
Yes correct. Or that's what I do at least on my MAs and BOSS (I'm not running the BKs anymore ATM), I think Nalleh does the same, at least on his BOSS, MAs and BKs.
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post #2813 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 11:28 AM
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Lol, so I was right in my original post about the HSF filter they are using as a LPF. I’ve had easier times teaching complex details of anatomy and physiology to kids, haha, probably simpler to understand than the nomenclature that is sometimes used in audio with so many similar terms and abbreviations that’s easy to mistakenly invert.

Also, since a few people asked, I’ve been meaning to test the boss in cantilever versus non cantilever for a while, and all I have to do is unplug two wires, because they’re wired in two sets of 3 front to back series/parallel; it’d be super easy! Maybe tomorrow I’ll give it a whirl. According to the mad TR scientist @Nalleh , a cantilever design seems to be rocking his setup even more lately.
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post #2814 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
a cantilever design seems to be rocking his setup even more lately.

HAHA, i see what you did there, LOL.
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post #2815 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Also, since a few people asked, I’ve been meaning to test the boss in cantilever versus non cantilever for a while, and all I have to do is unplug two wires, because they’re wired in two sets of 3 front to back series/parallel; it’d be super easy! Maybe tomorrow I’ll give it a whirl. According to the mad TR scientist @Nalleh , a cantilever design seems to be rocking his setup even more lately.
It'll be good to hear of your outcome. I myself have also been coming up with Boss.V2. I like the effect I have now, but after reading all of @Nalleh reports, I'd be really missing out if I didn't try to get some of that Y & Z multi axis movement. Hell, I've even thought about building something to get left to right X axis motion.
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post #2816 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 11:43 AM
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What are your experience with fully loaded seats/couch. How much does it affect the BOSS performance?
This weekend I saw the three latest X-men movies with a couple of friends. This was the first time filling all three seats. The TR below 15Hz seemed weaker than usual with less wobble, above 15Hz it was about the same. The 6 JBL's had to move about 850 pounds in total, so I was expecting some difference. My guests were very impressed with the BOSS .
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post #2817 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
It'll be good to hear of your outcome. I myself have also been coming up with Boss.V2. I like the effect I have now, but after reading all of @Nalleh reports, I'd be really missing out if I didn't try to get some of that Y & Z multi axis movement. Hell, I've even thought about building something to get left to right X axis motion.
Yeah, it doesn’t get much better than this for combining all axis



Edit: left graph is with MA’s, BK’s and the BOSS. Right one is same, only with the SLAPS box bolted on top.

More info in my thread
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post #2818 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 12:01 PM
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[QUOTE=Nalleh;58197820]Yeah, it doesn’t get much better than this for combining all axis

Hitting motion limits and going above the 00.0 line. No wonder you got winded after watching Fury.
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post #2819 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I started with JBL’s under the seat, didn’t like it that much, continued with a SI18" mk1 under the seat, liked i a bit better, then moved it to cantilever, LOVED IT, but the height was cumbersome, so changed to 4x JBL’s(pr seat) cantilever and it is awsome! Both cases, JBL’s and SI18" worked better in cantilever.

I think it might be because cantilever excites both Y and Z-axis, more of a rocking motion, as opposed to a normal BOSS mounting, which is more concentrated on z-axis only.

Movement combining more axis tends to feel more violent than a bigger movement in just one axis.
Nalleh.....Thanks for the details on your different setups and experiences with each configuration (cantilevered and under-the-seat). Very helpful for those considering all their BOSS configuration options. Between you and @SBuger , I think both of you have tried almost all possible combinations At least the ones thought of so far....

Also, great to see you and Shelby sharing your miniDSP settings to help with optimizing cross-overs and boosts for your particular BOSS/VNF/MA combinations. There's some golden nuggets there for others to experiment with to see if their BOSS experience can be improved, even without VNF and MA's.

Personally, I'm interested in exploring the negative delay effect when using negative HS's instead of LPFs to see if that enhances the BOSS experience with BOSS only. Will be fun to try some of these signal shaping tricks when things slow down at home....probably after the summer.

For the bold above, wanted to offer a bit of the science behind what's happening with BOSS technology. Remember, the back isolators of a typical mini-riser BOSS platform get most of the weight when seated or reclined due to the center of gravity of our bodies shown in the diagram below (the circles represent our body CG). That CG is mostly over the back isolators in either a reclined or un-reclined position.

This is important because our body weight becomes part of the dynamic BOSS system response. Imagine your body moving up and down a millimeter or so and how just that small amount of movement (say 200 lbs times 1 mm displacement) can start to have a rather large force effect on the back isolators when looking at the diagrams below.

Since the back isolators are doing most of the work, the mini-riser BOSS system always has rocking motion because our bodies are mostly over the back isolators and that’s where most of the force and energy is located in the BOSS system as a result.

That rocking motion can be maximized with setups shown on the left hand side of the diagram (both cantilevered and under-the-seat).

And, that rocking motion can also be minimized with setups shown on the right hand side of the diagram (both cantilevered and under-the-seat).

Basically, the more the CG of the body is in line with the driver and in line with the back isolator, the more up and down motion will result in the back isolator.

And, the more up and down motion of the back isolator will result in more rocking motion which will result in more efficient delivery of the BOSS system energy to the ULF TR experience.

This is also why the BOSS experience will be different for those that recline when compared to those that don't recline.

Once this basic BOSS principle is understood, one could really start to optimize their mini-riser BOSS system design based on seating preference (reclined or not reclined) and whether a cantilever design is best or under-the-seat is best based on seating preference and room layouts.

This is also, why VS measurements are good for determining directional changes from one setup to another but not so good about predicting the final BOSS system response. Because our bodies and the location of our bodies have the biggest impact on the overall BOSS system response. VS measurements with seating occupied are more accurate because of the overwhelming effect of our body weights on the overall BOSS system lever arms.

One caveat to all the above, these principles only apply to a mini-riser BOSS setup. For a full size riser BOSS, that platform could weigh much more than the occupants on top of the platform and is much more rigid. With these full size risers, the seating positions, isolator positions and driver positions on the platform become less important and the BOSS experience becomes more consistent anywhere on the platform.

Case in point, when I measure vibration on the floor of our 3rd row bar which is where people sitting back there rest their feet, its vibration is very similar to the vibration at the front of the platform where the second row guests feet are resting.

However, on our front row mini-riser, the vibration where the guests feet are sitting on the front of the platform is very small compared to the vibration measured at the back of the platform where most of the weight is located when the platform is fully loaded.

Maybe way too much information, but wanted to share as I’m seeing more discussion here about different BOSS configurations with mini-risers and what is the optimum layout.

Either cantilever or under-the-seat can deliver a similar experience. It really depends on your seating preference, location of your seats on top of the mini-riser and your room layout.

Also, bonus points for anyone who can see another lever (hint, hint) that could potentially be used to increase the BOSS system efficiency. Another hint….look at the configuration in the upper right hand corner of the diagram below and pay close attention to how the driver is cantilevered outside of the rear leg of the chair and the isolator directly below it.

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post #2820 of 2911 Old 06-18-2019, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eeyoreDK View Post
What are your experience with fully loaded seats/couch. How much does it affect the BOSS performance?
This weekend I saw the three latest X-men movies with a couple of friends. This was the first time filling all three seats. The TR below 15Hz seemed weaker than usual with less wobble, above 15Hz it was about the same. The 6 JBL's had to move about 850 pounds in total, so I was expecting some difference. My guests were very impressed with the BOSS .
eeyoreDK.....great question! See my post above for the effect of body weights and how those body weights are distributed on your BOSS platform. I think you have both a mini-riser and a full size riser, so the effects of body weights on each platform will likely be different.
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