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post #2881 of 3684 Old 07-11-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by trhought View Post
Kevnmin.....3.0 sounds like it will indeed be rigid! I'm smiling about your comments regarding welding and how those skills will come back once the hood is flipped down. Reminds me of my days on the farm fixing stuff that broke in the fields. The hardest part for me was getting that first strike to happen where you wanted it.
Yeah, good times growing up and fixing. That's how I first learned to weld. I wouldn't consider myself great, but good enough to get the job done.

A MIG would be great to use with the thin walls of square tubing, but all I've got is an old stick welder. A few tacks around the joints just be enough to get things secure without burning through. In other words I'm not worried it passing visual inspection.. After all, it'll be hidden under the couch.
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post #2882 of 3684 Old 07-11-2019, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by EricE View Post
Thinking of getting some motorized recliners to replace the couches currently in the theatre.

The problem is even with the shallow height MB Quarts that I have, will they interfere with the mechanism of a motorized seat?
Tried to search but I couldn’t find anything in the thread. Do any of you have motorized recliners with a mini boss setup?

Worst case is that I will have to build a short riser maybe 4" high to be able to mount the driver facing up but I like the minimal height that it is now.
In this situation I’d extend the riser to maybe 2 feet in front of the seats act as an integrated step to get up onto the seats.

My seats are motorized and I was able to find some 2” Thermoplastic Rubber Feet to replace my original .5” feet on my chairs. The downside to this is that it raises the chairs further off the floor. In retrospect, I probably could have gone with 1.5" or maybe even 1" feet.

If you are interested, the manufacturer is Budwig and the url is http://budwigmoldedproducts.com. They have a number of distributors listed on their web site. You will have to use one of the distributors as Budwig will only sell in lots of 100.

Any questions let me know. Good Luck!
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post #2883 of 3684 Old 07-11-2019, 10:38 AM
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Thanks for the ideas Tim.

One of my big ideas would be to get rid of the rear seats altogether, build a short BOSS platform and run near field subs in behind the seats hidden as a bar. Then I would just add some bar stools for overflow seating.
Problem with this is i've already convinced my wife to just get a loveseat powered HT recliner for the front...

Come to think about it a simple 2x4 platform with 2 layers of 3/4" plywood should be more than enough clearance for the MB drivers which only require 3". Just have to add LED lighting around the step so nobody trips.

Nsiret, thanks for the tip on the rubber feet and the clearance under the seats. More to think about.
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post #2884 of 3684 Old 07-11-2019, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricE View Post
Thanks for the ideas Tim.

One of my big ideas would be to get rid of the rear seats altogether, build a short BOSS platform and run near field subs in behind the seats hidden as a bar. Then I would just add some bar stools for overflow seating.
Problem with this is i've already........................................... ..
Built the bar out of brick and now the only way to fit nearfields is cut holes in the bricks



Definitely a good idea though



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post #2885 of 3684 Old 07-14-2019, 06:53 AM
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I am going to do a BOSS in my next build, I do have a question though. Do you put soft isos under the BOSS AND under the legs of the couch? Would that possibly work against each other?
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post #2886 of 3684 Old 07-14-2019, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fj6474 View Post
I am going to do a BOSS in my next build, I do have a question though. Do you put soft isos under the BOSS AND under the legs of the couch? Would that possibly work against each other?
I tried this and was not happy. The sensation felt was dimmed/dull feeling. I was using the recommended 2-1/2" dia hemispheres under my mini-riser platform and thought, what would it feel like if I were to put the 1" hemispheres I used prior to BOSS setup between the BOSS and the couch feet. Again, like I first said, dull and possibly distorted TR you might say.

There are others in the thread that have tried as well and discovered the same as I found. But then again, everyone's setup is unique. If you've got spare isolators around, its easy to test for yourself.
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post #2887 of 3684 Old 07-14-2019, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fj6474 View Post
I am going to do a BOSS in my next build, I do have a question though. Do you put soft isos under the BOSS AND under the legs of the couch? Would that possibly work against each other?
fj6474.....Good Question. It's best to minimize the degrees of freedom in a BOSS system (minimize springs between each solid member of your BOSS system). This will keep the entire BOSS platform and everything on top of it moving as one piece. By adding isolators between the couch legs and the BOSS platform, that adds another degree of freedom to the system which takes away from the natural feeling the BOSS is known for. This is because the couch won't be moving in phase with the BOSS platform anymore with the extra isos underneath its legs.

Basically, adding isos between the couch legs and the BOSS platform will cause the timing to be off and you'll lose the natural and commanding response the BOSS is known for, especially with the single digit ULF frequencies where the phase (timing) will be off even more than the higher octave frequencies.
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post #2888 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 05:39 AM
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I have no idea how to build things, but the JBL's are $29 at Best Buy again, so I bought a pair. I'll be reading this thread from start to finish to get some tips (mini riser). I have a sectional and was only planning the BOSS for the 2 main seats, not the sleeper section. Normally they are hooked together. I can either unhook the two parts and only do the riser for the seats and leave the rest a little lower, or just do another non BOSS'd riser to keep everything the same height.https://www.bestbuy.com/site/jbl-gx-...?skuId=6283643
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post #2889 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 05:41 AM
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The JBL GX1200 is on sale at bestbuy for 29.99!

Grab it before they go OOS.
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post #2890 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Spidacat View Post
I have no idea how to build things, but the JBL's are $29 at Best Buy again, so I bought a pair. I'll be reading this thread from start to finish to get some tips (mini riser). I have a sectional and was only planning the BOSS for the 2 main seats, not the sleeper section. Normally they are hooked together. I can either unhook the two parts and only do the riser for the seats and leave the rest a little lower, or just do another non BOSS'd riser to keep everything the same height.https://www.bestbuy.com/site/jbl-gx-...?skuId=6283643
Hey Spidacat....welcome aboard! I've been reading your posts over on the BEQ thread. I think you'll find the BOSS is a great combo with BEQ. I just re-muxed Abraham Lincoln, the Vampire Slayer last night and we watched it as a family....talk about great sound design and nicely layered ULF throughout....highly recommended. The video quality was only average....if you can look past some of the edge enhancement artifacts in a few scenes, it really is quite an enjoyable film.

Regarding your BOSS design, a mini-riser under each of the 2 chairs will be awesome. If you can keep the JBL's closer to the back legs of the chair, more in line with your body mass when seated, that will enhance the TR even more if possible. Even with the JBL's more towards the center of the platform, the BOSS experience will still be incredible. I have tested both configurations and the TR differences are subtle, but noticeable.

Building a faux-mini-riser (without BOSS) for your sleeper sofa is a great idea to keep the seating surfaces the same height. This will also give you the flexibility of adding more JBL's in the future if you want to "BOSS" your sleeper sofa also. I would even suggest fastening the sleeper sofa platform to your 2 other BOSS platforms.....you'll be amazed what just 2 JBL's will do for your 2 chairs and sleeper sofa all as one piece. I'm using 3 JBL's for our recliner and sleeper sofa all on one platform and the TR can be a bit too much at times.

Post 29 has the design guidelines and a link to the isolators. It also has a few hot links to some golden nuggets in this thread so you don't have to read through everything to find them if you don't want to.

As always, if you have any questions as your BOSS design comes into focus, just let me know.

Welcome aboard and looking forward to learning more about your setup and design.
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post #2891 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aravindhan View Post
The JBL GX1200 is on sale at bestbuy for 29.99!

Grab it before they go OOS.
Great News! I was beginning to wonder if the $29 JBL days were behind us. Another great opportunity for AVS members to sweep up a few more!
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post #2892 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 08:34 AM
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Here it yesterday I upgraded my BOSS from a 4 driver platform to a 6 driver platform. And now the JBL's go on sale, so what do I do, I've just placed the order and will pick up another pair on my home from work today. I see an 8 driver BOSS in my future now.
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post #2893 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Here it yesterday I upgraded my BOSS from a 4 driver platform to a 6 driver platform. And now the JBL's go on sale, so what do I do, I've just placed the order and will pick up another pair on my home from work today. I see an 8 driver BOSS in my future now.
Looks awesome Kev! Thanks for sharing the pictures. I love those stiffening ribs....well done! Yeah, I'm tempted to pick up a few more JBL's also....for our living room and my son's gaming chair. Now, with all our music and movies on our Plex server with restored ULF, it's definitely tempting to upgrade other rooms in our house when watching Plex!

Looking forward to hearing your impressions with your Mega-BOSS platform, either the 6-driver version or the 8-driver version

Congrats!
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post #2894 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 09:12 AM
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Looks awesome Kev! Thanks for sharing the pictures. I love those stiffening ribs....well done! Yeah, I'm tempted to pick up a few more JBL's also....for our living room and my son's gaming chair. Now, with all our music and movies on our Plex server with restored ULF, it's definitely tempting to upgrade other rooms in our house when watching Plex!

Looking forward to hearing your impressions with your Mega-BOSS platform, either the 6-driver version or the 8-driver version

Congrats!
Thanks Tim. As I'd mentioned last week, I was going to try welding the angle iron on the corners and square tubing, but without a MIG my stick welder was burning thru the thin wall. So next best thing, lag screws. It's incredibly stiff. it certainly added some weight. I'm not too sure if that's a good thing or bad thing. I've got to run some VS measurements to compare to where I was before. I'll keep you up to date.
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post #2895 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Tim. As I'd mentioned last week, I was going to try welding the angle iron on the corners and square tubing, but without a MIG my stick welder was burning thru the thin wall. So next best thing, lag screws. It's incredibly stiff. it certainly added some weight. I'm not too sure if that's a good thing or bad thing. I've got to run some VS measurements to compare to where I was before. I'll keep you up to date.
That's good news the lag screws are working the way they should! With the shorter spans like you have, your design looks great.

The extra weight should help since the mass and acceleration work together to increase delivered TR. More importantly is your mass when sitting on the BOSS platform...the center-line of that mass and your weight will help more than the extra weight of the platform.

Looking forward to hearing your impressions how 3.0 feels compared to your prior BOSS experiences!
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post #2896 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 12:22 PM
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Thank you for the reply on isos under both BOSS and couch. Another question, would the proper placement of isos under BOSS be exactly where the couch/chair feet would be on top? It seems as the best place for the drivers would then be under the butt because that would more less be in the middle of the isos like jumping in the middle of a trampoline?
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post #2897 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by aravindhan View Post
The JBL GX1200 is on sale at bestbuy for 29.99!

Grab it before they go OOS.
Thanks for the heads up. Just grabbed another 4 of them for my expansion. Thinking I might grab another 4 to have around since it's been awhile since last sale.
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post #2898 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the reply on isos under both BOSS and couch. Another question, would the proper placement of isos under BOSS be exactly where the couch/chair feet would be on top? It seems as the best place for the drivers would then be under the butt because that would more less be in the middle of the isos like jumping in the middle of a trampoline?
fj6474....another good question. Yes, the isolators should be directly under where the couch/chair feet are on top of the platform. This is to reduce bending of the mini-riser plaform. Any bending of the platform takes away from TR delivered to your butt and also introduces timing/delay problems.

Basically, that bending takes energy away from the driver and wastes that energy bending the platform instead of going to your butt. That is also why having the drivers closer to the back legs is better because it's more in line with your body weight when seated and the isolators directly below the back legs of the chair underneath the platform. Aligning all these forces results in the best possible BOSS experience because there is minimum delay and maximum energy transmitted to your body.
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post #2899 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the heads up. Just grabbed another 4 of them for my expansion. Thinking I might grab another 4 to have around since it's been awhile since last sale.
Oh yeah DesertDog....great timing with these going on sale right now! Perfect for your cantilevered Mega-BOSS-SLAP-Sac I like the sound of that! If it feels half as good as it sounds, you're in for a heck of a ride!
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That's good news the lag screws are working the way they should! With the shorter spans like you have, your design looks great.

The extra weight should help since the mass and acceleration work together to increase delivered TR. More importantly is your mass when sitting on the BOSS platform...the center-line of that mass and your weight will help more than the extra weight of the platform.

Looking forward to hearing your impressions how 3.0 feels compared to your prior BOSS experiences!

Surely more weight on the riser would reduce the effect.



Physics in play :


"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" - so when the driver moves the riser moves in the opposite direction with the force applied to the riser equal to the force of the moving driver.


"Force = Mass x Acceleration" - so the force of the driver is equal to the mass of the moving driver parts x their accelaration (approximatley equal to MMS x XMAX) which in the case of the JBL is approx 2500 gram millimetres (or 0.0025 Newtons (sort of))


"Acceleration = Force / Mass"- So now when we apply 0.0025Newtons to the riser it will accelerate at a rate of 0.0025 divided by the weight of the riser, couch and inhabitants. So if we add more weight the acceleration (or movement) will be lessened.


So if we add more weight we MUST add more drivers



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post #2901 of 3684 Old 07-15-2019, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Surely more weight on the riser would reduce the effect.



Physics in play :


"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" - so when the driver moves the riser moves in the opposite direction with the force applied to the riser equal to the force of the moving driver.


"Force = Mass x Acceleration" - so the force of the driver is equal to the mass of the moving driver parts x their accelaration (approximatley equal to MMS x XMAX) which in the case of the JBL is approx 2500 gram millimetres (or 0.0025 Newtons (sort of))


"Acceleration = Force / Mass"- So now when we apply 0.0025Newtons to the riser it will accelerate at a rate of 0.0025 divided by the weight of the riser, couch and inhabitants. So if we add more weight the acceleration (or movement) will be lessened.


So if we add more weight we MUST add more drivers


Hey niterida....time to get a little geeky....for a single frequency with a constant period (t) between waves, you're a third of the way correct. There are also two other terms in the dynamic force equation.....F = ma +cv + kx, where m=mass, c=damping and k is the spring constant. From this equation, F is the TR we feel in our butts and you can see mass and acceleration work together, velocity and dampening work together and displacement and spring constants work together in delivering that TR.

The cool thing about this equation and dynamic systems in general, displacement affects all three of the terms in the equation above. Displacement by itself combined with the spring constant for that force term, displacement divided by time combined with damping for that force term and displacement divided by time squared combined with mass for that force term.....all three of these terms combines quite nicely with dynamic systems when mass is high and displacements are low like we have with TR. In this case, mass helps the response considerably at the lower octaves and larger time intervals associated with the lower frequencies of TR.

The other cool thing about this equation is that you can see how the force goes to zero as the frequency increases (the period between waves gets smaller and t gets smaller which drives the damping term to a larger value cancelling the other 2 force terms at higher frequencies). If it wasn't for this, the BOSS system would be delivering considerable TR at higher frequencies, but fortunately, because of the visco properties of the silicone the BOSS naturally dampens itself at the higher frequencies but allows considerable TR at the lower frequencies especially with higher mass.

It's pretty cool how this works but sometimes can be hard to wrap one's head around because of how much the frequency determines the response of the dynamic system and how that frequency can change each of the 3 terms in the TR equation and make each contribute more or less to the overall TR depending on the frequency.

I've recently modeled this as I want to understand why very heavy full size risers with just 3 JBL's can deliver so much ULF TR and I'm surprised by what I'm finding so far. Still have some more work to do in tuning the model with real-world data I'm collecting but the results are directionally showing more mass is resulting in more ULF TR up to 1,800 pounds so far with just 3 drivers.

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sometimes can be hard to wrap one's head around



You lost me after 'geeky'





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post #2903 of 3684 Old 07-16-2019, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^ LOL....yeah it gets a bit more geekier when P1V1=P2V2 is added to the equation to account for pressure underneath the risers if there's a seal between the floor and the bottom of the riser when no isolators are used underneath.
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@trhought or others, need help with wiring.
On my BOSS Platform, I have two drivers. I also have a separate sub that I need to power. I am using INuke3000. So basically, I need to power 1 sub and 2 BOSS drivers. How can I wire BOSS drivers that can run from 1 INuke3000 input and my sub from another. Also, I'd need to EQ Sub vs BOSS individually. On the back of INuke, it has 3 options
1 - Mono
2- Stereo
3 - Bridge.

What wiring/settings I need to use to make all this work?
Much appreciated.
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post #2905 of 3684 Old 07-16-2019, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
@trhought or others, need help with wiring.
On my BOSS Platform, I have two drivers. I also have a separate sub that I need to power. I am using INuke3000. So basically, I need to power 1 sub and 2 BOSS drivers. How can I wire BOSS drivers that can run from 1 INuke3000 input and my sub from another. Also, I'd need to EQ Sub vs BOSS individually. On the back of INuke, it has 3 options
1 - Mono
2- Stereo
3 - Bridge.

What wiring/settings I need to use to make all this work?
Much appreciated.
I may not be able to fully answer your question, but as I have been looking eventually to upgrade to the inuke 3kDSP, i asked this similar question below in a PM to fellow BOSS follower @Sekosche
This may not fully answer your question but might help lead you to an answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevnmin
Sekosche,

I'm getting closer and closer to picking up the Inuke 3000dsp for my Boss instead of the old AVR and have a question I thought you'd probably be able to answer pretty quick. Is it possible to set the amp up so you can set a different peak limiter voltage to each of the two channels? For example, I'm wondering about running the 4 JBL's in the boss on one channel limiting to 320 watts(80 per driver) and then running my Aura shakers off the other channel with their limit at 100 watts(50 per shaker).
Let me know, thanks, Kevin.

His Answer below:

Yep, this is super easy in the iNuke software to configure each channel EQ and limiter separately. You’ll run Biamp mode on the iNuke for input which means you only need one line in and then you can separately control both channels on the output using the same input signal. This is how I run both my iNukes to allow for so much customization.[/SIZE]
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post #2906 of 3684 Old 07-16-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
@trhought or others, need help with wiring.
On my BOSS Platform, I have two drivers. I also have a separate sub that I need to power. I am using INuke3000. So basically, I need to power 1 sub and 2 BOSS drivers. How can I wire BOSS drivers that can run from 1 INuke3000 input and my sub from another. Also, I'd need to EQ Sub vs BOSS individually. On the back of INuke, it has 3 options
1 - Mono
2- Stereo
3 - Bridge.

What wiring/settings I need to use to make all this work?
Much appreciated.
Stereo on the inuke. One channel goes to the sub with the other channel going to the BOSS subs. Wire the BOSS subs in series and use the power limiter on inuke if it's the DSP model. Also, double check that one channel of the N3000 has enough power to drive your sub low. I don't know what you're trying to drive with it.
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Last edited by DesertDog; 07-16-2019 at 11:30 AM.
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Stereo on the inuke. One channel goes to the sub with the other channel going to the BOSS subs. Wire the BOSS subs in series and use the power limiter on inuke if it's the DSP model. Also, double check that one channel of the N3000 has enough power to drive your sub low. I don't know what you're trying to drive with it.
Thx. After many trial and error, I did exactly what you mentioned before I read your post. Behind the amp, it has configuration on how to wire. Following is the config I'm using. Using SpeakOn with 4 terminals. Please let me know if its incorrect
CH-A BOSS: using bridge setting with Pos = +1, Neg = +2
CH-B Sub: Pos = +1, Neg = -1

sub is a MBM with a cut off at 30 with 24BW. I use iNuke6000 to drive 2 Mini Marty (with UXL drivers) for low frequencies.

Does the wiring look ok?

Update: I use minidsp 2x4 HD. I realized that with above setting, even after I Mute the channel that's driving BOSS, the drivers still move. Even if I move the gain knob on Channel A which is connected with BOSS, the driver still moves. It seems like CH-B (the one that's connected to sub) is also driving CH-A. So wiring seems wrong. How can I run them independently?

Last edited by harrisu; 07-16-2019 at 05:05 PM.
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post #2908 of 3684 Old 07-16-2019, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevnmin View Post
I may not be able to fully answer your question, but as I have been looking eventually to upgrade to the inuke 3kDSP, i asked this similar question below in a PM to fellow BOSS follower @Sekosche
This may not fully answer your question but might help lead you to an answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevnmin
Sekosche,

I'm getting closer and closer to picking up the Inuke 3000dsp for my Boss instead of the old AVR and have a question I thought you'd probably be able to answer pretty quick. Is it possible to set the amp up so you can set a different peak limiter voltage to each of the two channels? For example, I'm wondering about running the 4 JBL's in the boss on one channel limiting to 320 watts(80 per driver) and then running my Aura shakers off the other channel with their limit at 100 watts(50 per shaker).
Let me know, thanks, Kevin.

His Answer below:

Yep, this is super easy in the iNuke software to configure each channel EQ and limiter separately. You’ll run Biamp mode on the iNuke for input which means you only need one line in and then you can separately control both channels on the output using the same input signal. This is how I run both my iNukes to allow for so much customization.[/SIZE]
Thx but this won't work in my case since I don't have dsp version. I use minidsp to eq them.
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post #2909 of 3684 Old 07-16-2019, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Thx. After many trial and error, I did exactly what you mentioned before I read your post. Behind the amp, it has configuration on how to wire. Following is the config I'm using. Using SpeakOn with 4 terminals. Please let me know if its incorrect
CH-A BOSS: using bridge setting with Pos = +1, Neg = +2
CH-B Sub: Pos = +1, Neg = -1

sub is a MBM with a cut off at 30 with 24BW. I use iNuke6000 to drive 2 Mini Marty (with UXL drivers) for low frequencies.

Does the wiring look ok?

Update: I use minidsp 2x4 HD. I realized that with above setting, even after I Mute the channel that's driving BOSS, the drivers still move. Even if I move the gain knob on Channel A which is connected with BOSS, the driver still moves. It seems like CH-B (the one that's connected to sub) is also driving CH-A. So wiring seems wrong. How can I run them independently?
You're wiring is off. For the boss you should have pos +1, neg 11 for channel A, for the sub pos +2, neg -2 for channel B and the iNuke in stereo mode, not bridged. Then Channel A's settings and gain control your boss with Channel B's settings and gain controlling the sub.
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post #2910 of 3684 Old 07-16-2019, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
You're wiring is off. For the boss you should have pos +1, neg 11 for channel A, for the sub pos +2, neg -2 for channel B and the iNuke in stereo mode, not bridged. Then Channel A's settings and gain control your boss with Channel B's settings and gain controlling the sub.
Thx. I did exactly that.
1 - Put amp to Stereo mode (DONE)
2 - Plug BOSS to Channel A using pos +1 and neg -1 terminal on Speak ON.
3 - Plug Sub to Channel B using pos +2 and neg -2.

Doing so makes the BOSS work but SUB is silent. Please note that I'm using SpeakOn connector. On the sub side, I wire it exactly the same (Pos +2, neg -2). Also, on amp, I have CrossOver set to FullRange. Not that it will make any difference but thought I should mention this.


Update: I finally got it working (thx to notnyt). I had to use the following
1 - BOSS on ch A with pos +1, nev -1
2 - Subon ch B with pos +1, nev -1
OR
1 - BOSS on ch A with pos 2+, nev 2-
2 - Subon ch B with pos 2+, nev 2-
3 - Mode: Stereo

Ignore what it says behind the panel. the only combination that worked is what I have in this post. This allowed me to independently handle each output.

Last edited by harrisu; 07-17-2019 at 12:24 PM.
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