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post #1 of 1636 Old 07-20-2018, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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The Hideaway Theater

******Edit******

For those coming here to get details about the BOSS, those pictures and description start in Post 10 and there's a drawing and guidelines in Post 29.

Also, one member asked what I thought was a great question...."what's the difference between a BOSS and other sub-in-riser platforms we've seen before."

BOSS features:

1. Open Baffle Design...no SPL to worry about integrating with your far-field subs. Set it and forget it.
2. Drivers mounted in horizontal arrangement....more efficient transfer of TR to the body than vertical arrangements
3. More excursion than buttkickers and maybe even more than tactile transducers....comparison testing coming soon.
4. More sensitive than buttkickers or tactile transducers.....only 80 watts needed per driver
5. Main volume levels can be kept low while still delivery respectable TR and the experience doesn't get lost with low MV
6. As MV approaches reference, the BOSS keeps responding in a natural way keeping in line the the far-field SPL increase
7. Low cost....it's only $90 for the 3 drivers plus a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" plywood for $35
8. The mini-riser BOSS can fit under any front row or living room chair/couch. It's only 1.75" tall!

Number 1 and 2 are the probably the biggest differences between the BOSS and more traditional subs in risers....being an open baffle design, means it's more efficient and doesn't take much power to reach max excursion. Open baffle also means the sound waves cancel and there's no SPL...perfect for integration with existing far-field subs without having to re-calibrate. The horizontal configuration means most of that excursion transfers directly to your body in an up-down motion which is how we feel ULF in the real world.

There's some videos of the BOSS's in action also in posts 72 and 73. After watching the videos, remember all that ULF and TR is in every seat and every row of our theater including our 3rd row bar...all for less than $250 and 80 watts per driver......incredible!

******End Edit*******

Wanted to share some pics of our 20 year old home theater and give back to our wonderful AVS community.

My apologies up front for my lack of a DSLR camera and resulting magazine perfect images. These pictures are from my trusty i-phone to help illustrate some design concepts and ideas despite the lack of lush colors, exquisite detail and sharp images.

After that disclaimer, if you’re still reading, I’m a long time lurker, seldom poster but daily AVS’er. We GC’d our house in 1998 with provisions for a 17’x30x’9’ dedicated home theater in the basement. Being in Louisiana, a basement is a luxury most don’t have and we’ve been making the most of it ever since the home completed in late ’98. We didn’t have any children when the house was built and now have three, ages 19, 15 and 13. The theater has provided many great memories so far for friends and family along the way.

When designing the house and theater space in the mid-90’s, internet was in its infancy without many of the readily available home theater design/construction resources available today. Most of my knowledge came from books and magazines from the day that sometimes featured articles on dedicated home theater spaces and some of the science behind room acoustics. Being a mechanical engineer with an understanding of physics, wave propagation, resonance frequencies, etc….I knew getting the room right from the start would pay dividends later in many ways.

The theater room was basically constructed with sound attenuation in mind using methods of the time….not even sure if clips, hat channel and green glue existed back then? The walls are 6” thick and constructed of staggered 2 x 4 studs spaced on 2’ centers to make for flexible and non-coupled walls to absorb the bass standing waves and minimize sound intrusion into adjacent living spaces in the basement. The ceiling drywall is hung from 2 x 8 rafters on 2’ centers for the same sound attenuating purpose and are decoupled from the floor joists for the main floor which are standard 2 x 12s’ on 12” centers to support the weight and span from the house above.

The floor wasn’t treated and is simply commercial grade carpet glued to the concrete slab. The projector is mounted to the 2 x 12 floor joists above so the projector wouldn’t vibrate during heavy bass activity.

There’s no stage and the riser in the back is 12” high and stuffed with pink fluffy.

When we built the house, we weren’t sure how long we would live in it. Once we started having kids, we stopped moving and this looks like it will be our forever home. Especially since we doubled down and also built the pool of our dreams about 10 years ago to accompany the theater of our dreams.

The pool, like our house, is nestled about 100 yards into the woods and is called our hideaway pool for obvious reasons. It was only appropriate to name the theater as such to follow standard “dedicated home theater build” etiquette.





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post #2 of 1636 Old 07-20-2018, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Since our home was originally built with “resale” in mind, the 17x30x9 theater room was constructed with the thought of being able to simply divide it in half to make two 17x15x9 bedrooms when it came time to sell. So the theater has 2 entry doors….one in the front and one in the back. Hindsight being 20/20, having 1 door would be one change made in the early stages of construction to help attenuate sound in and out of the theater.

Basement floor plan showing the theater in the lower left hand corner



The upside of having 2 doors is both can be opened during impromptu get-togethers which opens up the theater to the adjacent room which has a pool table and flat panel TV. This provides a sports bar feel when combined with the projection screen in the theater. To expand on the sports bar theme, we’re currently planning to add a bar to the back of the second row with additional lighting above to provide local lighting just to the bar while maximizing contrast on the projected image in front of the theater.

Bar Mock-up picture with folding Cosco Table...lol...this mock-up works quite well. Next project....build a 3rd row bar with a cubby for AC power, USB chargers, RGB lighting and ethernet jacks. Also, will have a smaller flat panel TV back there for the guests at the bar to watch another sporting event while the big screen is going.



Lights Installed Over Bar Area (on each side of projector)



Various Views of Entertainment Area looking into Theater and Outside





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post #3 of 1636 Old 07-20-2018, 03:35 PM
 
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The theater looks very nice, but the pool is absolutely gorgeous! Nice job on both counts!
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post #4 of 1636 Old 07-20-2018, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Boy, have things changed in the last 20 years since our theater was constructed. For the first couple years we just enjoyed a Sony VPL-400w projector (Sony’s first native 16x9 LCD) projecting onto the front wall which was painted white. For sound, we had a Sony 1090 AVR for “awesome” 5.1 sound all around which was state of the art at the time and various speakers that were purchased throughout college and shortly after graduation from college. Those speakers were hung from the side walls pointing downward towards the seats. The walls were beige, the ceiling was white and the room was ugly when the lights were on. But when the lights went out, we were in movie heaven with all the DVD’s we could buy on our modest salaries. Ironically, we recently had a garage sale and I had over 400 DVD’s for sale for $.50 each….maybe sold 150…..physical media is dead…at least DVD’s.

Later upgrades over time found us acquiring 2 more surround speakers for back surround and a Kenwood receiver for Dolby EX sound. Funny how everyone was talking about the addition of back surround speakers and the resulting sound being so incredibly lifelike. The effect was there and we enjoyed it but in hindsight, the biggest difference was going to 7.1 surround with multiple side surround speakers adjacent to each row of seats.

That was a big difference in sound quality for every seat. At the same time as the upgrade to 7.1 we also upgraded the décor in the theater to what you see now with the addition of columns to hide the speakers, a darker color scheme all around and the addition of lots of fabric to hide speakers and sound treatments.

Fabric Covering Soffit and Columns

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post #5 of 1636 Old 07-20-2018, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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At the same time as the 7.1 and décor upgrade in 2010, we also upgraded the projector (Panasonic AE-4000) and the receiver (Onkyo 806). All the surround speakers were also voiced the same with the replacement of their tweeters and midwoofers with closeout RadioShack drivers.

This was a big upgrade allowing CIH zooming with the Panasonic and taking advantage of the Audyssey room correction in the Onkyo to tame the room acoustics even more than I was capable with a sound meter and manual EQ. Audyssey did a surprisingly good job of providing even sound to the seating areas, both front and back rows and smoothing bass response for all seats. We’re pretty happy considering the minimal investment in speakers and driver upgrades over the years to keep the voicing consistent.

For the low end, we’ve been happy with our 15 year old 12” servo controlled Velodyne subwoofer corner loaded in the back middle corner adjacent to the equipment/movie storage closet. Surprisingly, I’m happy with the bass response in the room given the relatively small 12” woofer size for a room with a volume greater than 5,000 ft^3…..must be the corner loading that is helping in this regard.

The equipment within that closet gets all its IR commands via an IR extender mounted in the front of the theater behind the screen fabric. A Harmony remote takes care of all equipment controls via its activity program modes. Even lighting scenes are accomplished via the Harmony and integrated into each of the activity scenes with IR control of X10 switch modules and light switches. X-10 macros have been created for “movie start”, “movie end”, “intermission”, and “disco”. Yeah, we even have a disco ball in the back of the room with black lights in the soffits that only come on when the “Disco” activity is selected. This was one request from the kids for their get-togethers.

2.35 Screen with Zoom CIH....the picture image isn't the greatest....was shot during a commercial with a white screen to brighten the room, the bottom of the screen also isn't lit....probably due to a transition that was happening during the commercial...lol.

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post #6 of 1636 Old 07-20-2018, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, as part of the 2010 theater décor upgrade was the addition of RGB LED lights for the back riser and soffit lighting. The LED color is manually adjustable to match the décor for the mood of the party….think purple and gold for LSU football gatherings, red and green for Christmas, Orange for Halloween, etc.

Here's the manual LED controllers located inside the equipment closet....brightness and colors can be changed for both the soffit and riser lights while the on/off switches are by the entry doors to the theater



Some pics showing the different colors on the riser (you get the idea...colors can be changed on the soffits also)





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post #7 of 1636 Old 07-20-2018, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Another requisite for the 2010 décor upgrade that put my Cajun engineering skills to the test….there was an acute desire to avoid drywall…no taping, no mudding, no sanding, minimal mess. So, all soffits, columns and lighting was added without drywall.

The result was a design for all these features using ridge vents normally found on top of house roofs at the ridge to let hot air out of the attic. I found these 4’ sections of bendable plastic did a wonderful job of providing nice round edges where needed and covered well with fabric since they were already black. They also had vents built into them to allow insulation to be used behind them to offer some benefits of sound treatments of first reflection points on the side walls.

All these columns and soffits are held in place by various backer boards, mostly 2x4 that are simply screwed into the existing drywall and studs. If we were to ever convert this room to another use, it would be quite simple to remove these columns and soffit and only have to patch a few screw holes and remove all the fabric from the front wall and repaint.

A drop ceiling was added in the back of the room to make the projector installation more architecturally pleasing while at the same time providing ample space to hide cable runs from the equipment room to anywhere in the theater space via the soffits and columns. This too, could be easily removed later and only require the patching of a few screw holes.

Theater Plan showing locations of key elements



Sketch of Soffit and Column Concept (we have front height channels also but not being used right now)



Sketch of how the ridge vents were used to construct the columns and the soffits



Inside one of the soffits (notice the black lights)



The columns were attached to the soffits with hinges so they can be pivoted away from the wall for speaker/sound treatment changes



Inside one of the columns with a speaker and speaker shelves at various heights for experimenting



Taming those first reflections using the columns as sound treatment

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post #8 of 1636 Old 07-20-2018, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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So, we’ve been enjoying this 7.1 setup since 2010…actually 11.1 speakers with 3 side surrounds flanking the seating positions on each side.

Our next upgrade will likely include sound clouds in the ceiling to house 4 to 6 height channels and probably a projector upgrade to HDR/UHD when that projection technology matures and reaches affordable prices.

Until then, I’m always amazed when watching the latest blockbuster movie at home. The sound design these days is much better than it was just a few years ago. Rightly or wrongly, I attribute that to the latest 3D sound mixing techniques and not only improving 3D sound but also plain ole 7.1 sound. I also like to think that some of the improvement is my never-ending tweaking of speaker toe-in, surround aiming, seat positioning, level settings, speaker delays, re-run Audyssey, rinse and repeat over and over….that’s the personal enjoyment I get from the theater in addition to watching our family and friends enjoy the fruits of my labor over the years.

It’s a great hobby and quite affordable if one can continue to resist going down the rabbit hole and only upgrading once every 10 years or so. Must. Resist. It’s been tempting to go really crazy and go full-on DIY Marty subs with gigawatts of Behringer power, Crowson’s underneath the seats and discrete control of over 20 channels of 3D sound processing power that’s fully customizable….OK I better stop myself now and go back to reading fellow AVS’er posts and living the home theater life vicariously through your threads.

Thanks fellow AVS’ers for the inspiration over the years and Hope some of this helps!

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post #9 of 1636 Old 07-20-2018, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkpenguin View Post
The theater looks very nice, but the pool is absolutely gorgeous! Nice job on both counts!
Thanks drunkpenguin! Yeah, this time of year we love it out there....101 degrees today with 109 heat index!

We went a little overboard on our pool....a 72 foot waterslide, removable basketball and volleyball courts, fog all around the pool, a zipline and even a pirate ship to name a few features. We didn't want a swimming pool, we wanted a fun pool

Below is a link to our thread on Houzz for those interested in outdoor living spaces also. We have a dedicated sound system out there with 14 speakers to spread stereo sound around the entertainment areas of the backyard and pool.

Hope this helps.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/25...l-in-louisiana
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post #10 of 1636 Old 02-01-2019, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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LFE Upgrade....the best upgrade yet to our theater

Wanted to share a recent upgrade to the Hideaway Theater.......introducing the BOSS.

We’ve always thought the bass in our theater was adequate for our humble needs over the last 20 years or so. The corner loaded subwoofer properly calibrated was delivery ample bass to every seat in the theater and no one ever complained as the bass gently tickled the backs of our chairs when the movie or music beckoned.

In hindsight, what were we thinking? But first, some backstory. This upgrade journey started with a few gifts from my father this summer…..some extra powered subwoofers he had on hand plus a hand-built AMC amplifier he had assembled years ago. I happily packed these items into the truck for the long journey back to Louisiana along with some other 2-channel goodies he gave me for our separate listening room.

Those 2 extra subwoofers were put to task immediately in the Hideaway Theater and complimented our existing subwoofer quite nicely. They provided smooth bass to all seats in the theater after optimizing their placement, gains and delays. As expected, they also provided some added bass impact that was lacking before.

Then, out of curiosity one night while everyone was sleeping, I took one of them out of its optimized position and placed it right next to the seat I was sitting in. Oh my gosh, this is the tactile bass I’ve been reading about on AVS for all these years. And, it wasn’t that expensive to get into the tactile bass game with just one subwoofer placed nearfield.

That was it……I was bit by the tactile bass bug and there was no going back now.

After discovering the 12” JBL subwoofers at Best Buy that go on sale periodically, I swooped up 6 of them when they went on sale before the holidays. Wasn’t sure exactly what I was going to do with them. For sure, it would be something closer to our seats based on my earlier experiment but not exactly sure how all the pieces and parts would fit together yet.

After reading a lot on the ULF thread and the VibSensor thread, I soon learned that tactile impact was severely limited in our theater because we were in a basement on a concrete slab.

After a few brainstorming ideas and crazy cabinet designs, I started a concept build to see if any of these ideas would work.

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post #11 of 1636 Old 02-01-2019, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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The first concept build....

was to use our existing back row riser as a subwoofer that would not only provide nearfield tactile impact to the seats on top of it but also separation of that seating from the concrete floor.

This separation from the concrete was something I learned from the VibSensor thread and was extremely important to the “you are there” feeling by having the floor beneath you move. This makes so much sense now, but never occurred to me until reading up on the subject and how basement theaters have to overcome this by suspending the floor off the concrete.

Here’s pictures of the first concept build with the back row riser and the results were breathtaking.

I was now in the ULF game for a very low cost using our existing riser as a cabinet and powering these JBL’s with the AMC amplifier my father gave me.

JBL's ready for transplant into the back riser



Transplant complete



Final wiring complete.....including CAT6 and power runs for the 3rd row bar build which is next on my to-do list



Seating position relative to subwoofers for awesome nearfield ULF

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post #12 of 1636 Old 02-01-2019, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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The front row.....now what to do? Introducing the BOSS (Baffle Open Sub Shaker)

After enjoying this new-found ULF in our theater, another problem arose. Everyone was fighting to sit in the back row now and no one wanted to sit in the front row.

How could this be remedied, I thought? By delivering the same tactile experience as we’re getting in the back row, that’s how. But, the problem is I didn’t have the sight lines to raise the front row onto a riser without interfering with the projected image. And just as bad, raising the front row would interfere with the center channel sound in the back row.

So, back to the drawing board and more brainstorming.

After quite of bit of design iterations on paper and more reading about low profile cabinet designs, I had the epiphany of just using the remaining 3 JBL’s inverted in the cabinet so the front riser didn’t have to be very high….only about 1.5” high!

The problem now is the cabinet volume was much smaller than I had in the back riser. I wanted to keep that volume about the same since that experience back there was so good.

Then, another crazy idea hit me….what if the cabinet wasn’t a cabinet at all but rather just a flexible floor that was isolated from the concrete floor with rubber feet while the JBL’s did their job moving that floor with the couch on top of it.

This was similar to other mini-riser concepts I’ve read about and seen on AVS. But, those mini-risers were being directly shaken by butt-kickers or actuators. Other mini-risers were being indirectly shaken by insanely high SPL from other subs in the room. On paper, our mini-riser was going to be a different animal….by using the subwoofers to actively shake the platform.

Would this work? It’s basically, a modified open baffle concept with one side of the baffle being extremely close to one of the room surfaces. This closeness on one side of the baffle would be an attempt to cancel the back wave while also providing some back pressure to the subwoofer cones to keep them in control….maybe? Hopefully? This closeness also allows the total riser height to only be about 1.5” including the ¾” plywood!!

What the heck, I thought, I already have the subwoofers and a sheet of plywood was only $35…..let’s do it.

After carefully planning the location of the subs relative to the couch pieces to avoid interference, the holes were cut and this “open baffle shaker sub” was born.

The results have been just as incredible as the back row….maybe even a bit more satisfying with the rubber grommets providing even more isolation from the concrete floor.

The bottom of the front row mini-riser



The top of the front row mini-riser.....speakers strategically placed for each couch piece over them



The sleeper sofa in place covering 2 of the subs.....the recliner will cover up this sub



The 2 subs covered by the sleeper sofa



A peak under the sleeper sofa



All couch pieces in place....totally hidden and the baffle open sub shaker (BOSS) is ready to deliver the smiles!

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post #13 of 1636 Old 02-01-2019, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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LFE / ULF upgrade complete

Now everyone is enjoying the theater in any seat, front row or back row, with glorious ULF. The feeling of “you are there” during the movie or music with the ground shaking below you is incredible.

It’s like having a new theater. We’ve been watching all of our favorite movies and listening to all our favorite music all over again –and- for the first time with the feeling of weightlessness below us.

What an experience!

Some finished pictures showing all platforms finished in carpet for the final look. I constructed a third riser which acts as a step up to the back riser. While also providing a step to the back row, it conceals the speaker wire going to the front riser. Everything is totally hidden!

No one expects they’re sitting on top of 6 subwoofers when sitting down to enjoy music or a movie.

The look on their faces when the first kick drum or bass note hits during music or the ground moves beneath them during a movie…..Priceless!

Mini-riser carpeted and ready to rock and roll...



Step riser in place hiding all speaker wires....



All finished....glorious ULF for all seats in both rows and totally hidden!

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post #14 of 1636 Old 02-12-2019, 09:55 AM
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That’s awesome. Also awesome that you are able to feel the response down to 3 hz!
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I commented on your post in the BEQ thread too, but had to here as well. SO VERY COOL with the new TR upgrade (mega upgrade ) Fantastic job and great thinking outside the norm as well, like I mentioned in the BEQ thread. Inspiring stuff indeed!!
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post #16 of 1636 Old 02-12-2019, 11:09 AM
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Definitely doing the front row setup you have when I install my theater seating (waiting to get a projector to replace my 65" OLED first)
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post #17 of 1636 Old 02-12-2019, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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That’s awesome. Also awesome that you are able to feel the response down to 3 hz!
bluenova....you are so right about the 3Hz response......Imagine my surprise when I did my first frequency sweep and started at 2Hz and the woofer responded without any problems! I have a video of the response somewhere in the JBL thread. I'll have to see if I can post it here also for anyone interested. The SPL is "zero" but the TR is incredible.

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I commented on your post in the BEQ thread too, but had to here as well. SO VERY COOL with the new TR upgrade (mega upgrade ) Fantastic job and great thinking outside the norm as well, like I mentioned in the BEQ thread. Inspiring stuff indeed!!
SBuger....Thanks for the props on the "thinking outside the norm" comment. Great to offer a bit of inspiration and see what other ideas come up along the way. After all, half the fun with our hobby is experimenting and chasing the next incremental improvement in our setups..... a great hobby for us enthusiasts.

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Definitely doing the front row setup you have when I install my theater seating (waiting to get a projector to replace my 65" OLED first)
dgrizzard.....great to hear about your plans for a BOSS in your setup. It's an incredible effect and will bring your front row to life. That combined with a projector.....Oh man....you're going to be in HT heaven! That's likely going to be my next equipment upgrade....a new projector.

My next project is going to be the construction of a 3rd row bar with a small flat panel TV back there along with LED wash lighting, overhead lighting, USB ports, etc. It will be primarily for the guests to enjoy sporting events and what-not during get-togethers while the AV enthusiasts are in the front rows enjoying what's on the big screen. The secondary TV screen back there will also be handy when I'm finding music or sound demo material and I don't want to turn on the projector.

Please keep us posted on your BOSS and your experiences with it....very curious to see how others implement the BOSS.
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post #18 of 1636 Old 02-12-2019, 12:04 PM
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Hey there,

You've got me thinking!!! I've a two tier riser in my cinema. Pair of lazyboy recliners and three cinema chairs on the back. It's heavily braced and then on a load of heavy duty rubber mounts (Reclaimed industrial HVAC mounts) - I've a pair of Buttkicker LFE's and an Original mounted on the back, but have always felt that the fronts seats don't quite have the kick the rears do.
Am now curious about getting some big drivers and flipping them to face the floor under the lazyboys and see what they can do - Been interested in the VNF stuff but having seats behind has always precluded, however Underneath and open baffle when I have the riser already is starting to become an interesting experiment.....What JBL's are they. UK here with no best buy

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Sound - Marantz SR6011 (pre/atmos), Yamaha Z9, Mirage Om-6's, Om-C2's, 6x Om-R2's, 4x Nanosat (atmos), Dual Paradigim Servo 15's
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post #19 of 1636 Old 02-12-2019, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey there,

You've got me thinking!!! I've a two tier riser in my cinema. Pair of lazyboy recliners and three cinema chairs on the back. It's heavily braced and then on a load of heavy duty rubber mounts (Reclaimed industrial HVAC mounts) - I've a pair of Buttkicker LFE's and an Original mounted on the back, but have always felt that the fronts seats don't quite have the kick the rears do.
Am now curious about getting some big drivers and flipping them to face the floor under the lazyboys and see what they can do - Been interested in the VNF stuff but having seats behind has always precluded, however Underneath and open baffle when I have the riser already is starting to become an interesting experiment.....What JBL's are they. UK here with no best buy

Lee
Lee...Thanks for stopping by and for the description of your setup.

The JBL in a BOSS for your front row recliners would really make them come alive and augment the buttkickers on the back. If I understand correctly, you already have the isolators underneath the front riser or is it one big riser, front and back as one structure raised on isolators? If one big structure, the effect will be even better if you can place JBL's under all seats (front and back) to get that one big riser moving equally to a smaller riser with less seats and less JBL's.

I only have experience with 3 JBL's for each of my smaller risers so that's the perspective I'm coming from. Having said that, my back riser is rather heavy and it does great with just 3 JBL's underneath (1 for each of the couch pieces back there). That back riser is raised on rubber also separating it from the concrete.

These JBL's sell under 3 different model numbers that I'm aware of....CX1200, GX1200 and CS1214. I believe member @Nalleh lives in Norway and was able to find a source for the CS1214's there.

Hope this helps.
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post #20 of 1636 Old 02-12-2019, 06:35 PM
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dgrizzard.....great to hear about your plans for a BOSS in your setup. It's an incredible effect and will bring your front row to life. That combined with a projector.....Oh man....you're going to be in HT heaven! That's likely going to be my next equipment upgrade....a new projector.

My next project is going to be the construction of a 3rd row bar with a small flat panel TV back there along with LED wash lighting, overhead lighting, USB ports, etc. It will be primarily for the guests to enjoy sporting events and what-not during get-togethers while the AV enthusiasts are in the front rows enjoying what's on the big screen. The secondary TV screen back there will also be handy when I'm finding music or sound demo material and I don't want to turn on the projector.

Please keep us posted on your BOSS and your experiences with it....very curious to see how others implement the BOSS.
Do you think there would be any benefit or downside with going to a 15" sub instead of a 12"? I am happy with my bass now but want to go lower with better TR. I currently have dual SVS PC2000s, was thinking about adding dual 18" sealed to go quad, but I think this might be a better solution.
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post #21 of 1636 Old 02-12-2019, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you think there would be any benefit or downside with going to a 15" sub instead of a 12"? I am happy with my bass now but want to go lower with better TR. I currently have dual SVS PC2000s, was thinking about adding dual 18" sealed to go quad, but I think this might be a better solution.
dgrizzard....I don't see any problems with 15's as long as they can fit underneath your furniture/chairs when upside down in a BOSS configuration. A 15" woofer is considerably bigger than a 12" woofer. The added moving mass from the bigger moving coil and cone will certainly benefit the TR. However, the SPL in the open baffle (BOSS) won't be very impressive.

Typically a 15" woofer is rather pricey when compared to the ridiculously priced 12" JBL's. Those who buy the 15's are usually chasing SPL. In my opinion, the 15's may be better deployed in a traditional alignment that will maximize SPL. Also, make sure to check Xmax of the 15's with the power you're planning to use in the BOSS which is basically an open baffle / infinite baffle configuration. With the low back pressures due to the large cabinet volumes, Xmax could be reached very easily and with very low power. I would hate to see your 15's get nuked if you're planning to use much power with them in open baffle / infinite baffle.

Having said all that, if you have some extra 15's laying around and they fit under your seats OK, and they model OK in an IB arrangement with the power you're planning to provide them, I'd say they will work OK and probably even better because of the added moving mass. Also, check your excursion with the 15's to see how that compares with the JBL's. The JBL's Xmax is around 15mm. If the 15's are in that neighborhood, then they should really rumble with the extra mass.

It's just so hard to beat the JBL's at $29 each which is why I went down that path. The 15's might be a bit overkill, but hey, that's what we do here on AVS right?

Hope this helps.
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post #22 of 1636 Old 02-13-2019, 03:31 AM
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dgrizzard....I don't see any problems with 15's as long as they can fit underneath your furniture/chairs when upside down in a BOSS configuration. A 15" woofer is considerably bigger than a 12" woofer. The added moving mass from the bigger moving coil and cone will certainly benefit the TR. However, the SPL in the open baffle (BOSS) won't be very impressive.

Typically a 15" woofer is rather pricey when compared to the ridiculously priced 12" JBL's. Those who buy the 15's are usually chasing SPL. In my opinion, the 15's may be better deployed in a traditional alignment that will maximize SPL. Also, make sure to check Xmax of the 15's with the power you're planning to use in the BOSS which is basically an open baffle / infinite baffle configuration. With the low back pressures due to the large cabinet volumes, Xmax could be reached very easily and with very low power. I would hate to see your 15's get nuked if you're planning to use much power with them in open baffle / infinite baffle.

Having said all that, if you have some extra 15's laying around and they fit under your seats OK, and they model OK in an IB arrangement with the power you're planning to provide them, I'd say they will work OK and probably even better because of the added moving mass. Also, check your excursion with the 15's to see how that compares with the JBL's. The JBL's Xmax is around 15mm. If the 15's are in that neighborhood, then they should really rumble with the extra mass.

It's just so hard to beat the JBL's at $29 each which is why I went down that path. The 15's might be a bit overkill, but hey, that's what we do here on AVS right?

Hope this helps.
Hmm, you've given me a lot to think about. I was looking at the 15in Dayton Audio RSS390 HF, doing two of those (will only be 2 theater seats in my small room). Much pricier than $29 each, but looking at BB they are $65 now so I would be looking to spend more anyway. I also don't want to buy things in combination that ultimately aren't going to sound the best/work together properly. I've not built a sub before so any recommendation is appreciated.

Couple more questions as well, for driving these what size amp should I be looking at? Did you also isolate the seating itself from the board or is just sitting on there normally?
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post #23 of 1636 Old 02-13-2019, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Hmm, you've given me a lot to think about. I was looking at the 15in Dayton Audio RSS390 HF, doing two of those (will only be 2 theater seats in my small room). Much pricier than $29 each, but looking at BB they are $65 now so I would be looking to spend more anyway. I also don't want to buy things in combination that ultimately aren't going to sound the best/work together properly. I've not built a sub before so any recommendation is appreciated.

Couple more questions as well, for driving these what size amp should I be looking at? Did you also isolate the seating itself from the board or is just sitting on there normally?
dgrizzard.....that Dayton Audio RSS390HF is a beast. At $250 per driver, I would rather have it do some heavy duty lifting as a far-field sub in my room in a sealed or vented cabinet design to optimize SPL which is what it was designed to do best.

In my opinion it would be overkill for a near-field BOSS shaker setup.

I modeled the Dayton Audio RSS390HF below in WinISD....blue is for the BOSS. Red is for a traditional sealed cabinet.

From the blue curve, it would only take about 60 watts of power to hit its Xmax of 14mm. You can get an amp that will provide 60 watts per channel for about $100-150 powering one Dayton 15 on each channel. I provided a link to a 60 watt per channel amp below as an example. So, for your BOSS using the 15's, you'll be around $650 for the 2 drivers plus amplifier.

Using the JBL's, you can use the same amplifier (60 watts per channel) to hit its Xmax of 15 mm. So, for your BOSS, using the JBL's at $65 each, you'll be around $230.

So the 15's will cost ~3 times more than the JBL's. Will the 15's deliver 3 times more TR than the JBL's in a BOSS....in my opinion, probably not.

However, if you want to buy the 15's for something else....such as far-field SPL in the corners of the room to balance the BOSS, they would be a good choice. In that configuration, you would need about 350 watts in a 2.8 cu. ft. sealed cabinet for each Dayton 15 to maximize it's SPL and deliver great far-field SPL when placed in the corners of your room.....the red curve below.

Hope this helps.

60 watt per channel amplifier

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_543P75/Russound-P75.html

Dayton Audio WinISD model

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post #24 of 1636 Old 02-13-2019, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Did you also isolate the seating itself from the board or is just sitting on there normally?
For the seating, they're just sitting on the carpet which I installed on the BOSS. The carpet helps hold the seats in place. Before I carpeted the BOSS, I noticed the sleeper sofa and recliner would shift a few inches after spirited listening sessions....lol.

Hope this helps.
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For the seating, they're just sitting on the carpet which I installed on the BOSS. The carpet helps hold the seats in place. Before I carpeted the BOSS, I noticed the sleeper sofa and recliner would shift a few inches after spirited listening sessions....lol.

Hope this helps.
Thanks again, I will probably stick with the 12in JBLs then. I like bang for buck, and it sounds like that is it.
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post #26 of 1636 Old 02-13-2019, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again, I will probably stick with the 12in JBLs then. I like bang for buck, and it sounds like that is it.
dgrizzard....you're welcome.....it's truly a value shaker that will deliver the smiles for a very low cost. Please let me know your thoughts and a couple pics if possible after building and test driving your BOSS. Looking forward to seeing how others implement their own version of it.
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post #27 of 1636 Old 02-14-2019, 06:30 AM
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Lee...Thanks for stopping by and for the description of your setup.

The JBL in a BOSS for your front row recliners would really make them come alive and augment the buttkickers on the back. If I understand correctly, you already have the isolators underneath the front riser or is it one big riser, front and back as one structure raised on isolators? If one big structure, the effect will be even better if you can place JBL's under all seats (front and back) to get that one big riser moving equally to a smaller riser with less seats and less JBL's.
Imagine a P flattened and on it's back. The whole riser is one structure. It's based off 8' 2x4" beams which form the bottom edges in 2" thick, with extra bracing and then the back section on top using the 4" thick dimension to create the height rise. It's ~8' x 8' using a couple of sheets of 1/2" thick ply and then on ~10 of the rubber industrial isolaters. It's all glued and screwed to try and make it as tight, rigid and stiff as possible. I built it at work and then dismantled and built it up in the room adding the glue component to homogenize it! I make flat panel composites so tend to engineer things!

The whole structure moves as one and i've a 2x4HD channel feeding an Inuke 3000DSP with one channel the LFE's and the other the origional.
I did build a pair of clarke TST239's in though oddly have yet to wire those up. I think i've a spare LFE in the garage that i'm also tempted to add directly in the Layzboy pair!!!

Quote:
These JBL's sell under 3 different model numbers that I'm aware of....CX1200, GX1200 and CS1214. I believe member @Nalleh lives in Norway and was able to find a source for the CS1214's there.
Interesting. The UK market seems a little different....There's a CS1214T which is a sub in a tube box. Doable, though at ~£120 and throwing away the tube it seems a bit daft.

The cheapest JBL 12" seems to be the GT5-12 1100W, 90db and 27Hz–450Hz at about £50

There's a GT-X1200 1200w, 90db and 23Hz-450kHz at £70

And possibly the more interesting JBL S2-1224 at 1100w, 93db, but 25-175Hz but it's £90

None of them are bank breakers, though far more than the $29 you get them for!

I'd only be able to add the pair up front, but that's my seat and most the time it's just me anyway! The cinema post style seats wouldn't work at hiding the drivers, but then the butkickers are just behind them so they've got oomph

If I went down this route, I'd probably have to mount the speakers with the platform in situ due to the weight and rasing it up to properly access the underneath would take jacking or something. I could probably cut holes reasonably from above and then screw the drivers down to the ply - I may be able to bolt as you can get an arm under without too much difficulty. They won't be particularly seen under the recliners unless you go looking!

The room is at the top of the house, like a purpose built attic conversion. It's 23' x 15' but has two sloped ceilings so floor space is bigger than the actual space! There's an acoustic screen "wall" i've suspended over one of the slopes with a 120" screen and i'm about 12' from it. The pair of Paradigm Servo 15s whilst older do pretty good on normal bass

Lee

Sound - Marantz SR6011 (pre/atmos), Yamaha Z9, Mirage Om-6's, Om-C2's, 6x Om-R2's, 4x Nanosat (atmos), Dual Paradigim Servo 15's
Additional - MiniDSP : DDRC-88a, 2x4HD
Source -Panasonic DP-UB420, Toshiba HD-XE1, Sony SCD-XE620
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post #28 of 1636 Old 02-14-2019, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Imagine a P flattened and on it's back. The whole riser is one structure. It's based off 8' 2x4" beams which form the bottom edges in 2" thick, with extra bracing and then the back section on top using the 4" thick dimension to create the height rise. It's ~8' x 8' using a couple of sheets of 1/2" thick ply and then on ~10 of the rubber industrial isolaters. It's all glued and screwed to try and make it as tight, rigid and stiff as possible. I built it at work and then dismantled and built it up in the room adding the glue component to homogenize it! I make flat panel composites so tend to engineer things!

The whole structure moves as one and i've a 2x4HD channel feeding an Inuke 3000DSP with one channel the LFE's and the other the origional.
I did build a pair of clarke TST239's in though oddly have yet to wire those up. I think i've a spare LFE in the garage that i'm also tempted to add directly in the Layzboy pair!!!



Interesting. The UK market seems a little different....There's a CS1214T which is a sub in a tube box. Doable, though at ~£120 and throwing away the tube it seems a bit daft.

The cheapest JBL 12" seems to be the GT5-12 1100W, 90db and 27Hz–450Hz at about £50

There's a GT-X1200 1200w, 90db and 23Hz-450kHz at £70

And possibly the more interesting JBL S2-1224 at 1100w, 93db, but 25-175Hz but it's £90

None of them are bank breakers, though far more than the $29 you get them for!

I'd only be able to add the pair up front, but that's my seat and most the time it's just me anyway! The cinema post style seats wouldn't work at hiding the drivers, but then the butkickers are just behind them so they've got oomph

If I went down this route, I'd probably have to mount the speakers with the platform in situ due to the weight and rasing it up to properly access the underneath would take jacking or something. I could probably cut holes reasonably from above and then screw the drivers down to the ply - I may be able to bolt as you can get an arm under without too much difficulty. They won't be particularly seen under the recliners unless you go looking!

The room is at the top of the house, like a purpose built attic conversion. It's 23' x 15' but has two sloped ceilings so floor space is bigger than the actual space! There's an acoustic screen "wall" i've suspended over one of the slopes with a 120" screen and i'm about 12' from it. The pair of Paradigm Servo 15s whilst older do pretty good on normal bass

Lee
Lee....Thanks for the details. Yeah, I think that one monolithic platform can definitely deliver respectable TR with subs directly mounted to it.....especially since you already have it raised from the floor on rubber isolators. That made a big difference when I raised our rather large back row riser onto rubber isolators.

When I mounted the JBL's in the back riser, I also had to jack it up using a car jack since it's so big and heavy. I could reach in from the top to get most of the work done, but I had to jack it up to drill a few holes through some of the joists on one side so those wires could exit the platform and disappear under one of the columns. If I didn't worry about wires showing, I could have definitely completed the job without raising the platform.

Sorry to hear about the availability of the JBL variants in England. If you have any particular drivers that look good on paper and you may want to try, just let me know. I could model them for you in WinISD to help determine how to setup the power so they don't get nuked by exceeding X-max.

Your setup sounds awesome being on a suspended floor and enjoying floor wobble already! Your seating position from your screen sounds like it delivers a nice immersive experience along with the floor movement you're getting already!
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post #29 of 1636 Old 02-16-2019, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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More build details about the BOSS (Baffle Open Sub Shaker)

So, I've received a few PM's about the BOSS. For everyone's benefit, wanted to include some additional build details and a drawing below about it to help anyone considering 1 or 2 of them for a test drive.

1. The plywood is 3/4"....I wanted it to be stiff so the entire platform moves as one piece on command from the JBL's. It's also important to be thick because you don't want it flexing too much when walking on it or sitting on the couches and chairs. This low flexing also keeps the face of the drivers about 1/2" from the floor consistently for all drivers mounted to the platform even when everyone is sitting on it. Also, don't have the legs of one chair/or couch supported by different platforms, they should all be on one platform.....see the drawing below for examples of good and bad ideas for the BOSS platform.

2. Power needed is only about 80 watts per driver....in an open baffle configuration like this, the drivers could get damaged easily by going beyond the mechanical limits of the drivers if too much power is applied.

3. The isolators can be any pieces of soft rubber that's 1" thick "after compression". The "after compression" is important because you want to give the drivers about 1/2" of breathing room between their faces and the floor. 1" tall rubber while everyone is sitting on the platform is best. This will give you 1" clearance between the bottom of the 3/4" plywood and the floor. With the foam face on the JBL's being 1/2" thick, this gives them 1/2" clearance between that foam face and the floor. You also want the rubber pieces to be no more than about 1-2" in diameter. The less contact with the floor the better. This is shown in a drawing below for visually oriented readers like me. A link to isolators is provided below as an example of something that has been tested and works great with a BOSS. The key is the durometer or softness of the isolator (20-40 durometer is good). Lastly, all the above guidelines are for the mini-riser BOSS shown in the picture below. For a BOSS in a traditional riser, the height of the isolators doesn't have to be 1" since the subs will be mounted normally and their faces won't be next to the floor as pictured below. If the rubber is only 1/2" high, that's OK for a full riser BOSS, as long as it's soft (20-40 durometer).

4. Placement of the isolators is important. They should be placed directly below the legs of the couch or chair pieces that are resting on it. This keeps the 3/4" plywood from flexing too much and not giving the drivers the breathing room they need below. Also, if there's more than 2 feet between any of the isolators after placing them relative to the chair/couch piece legs, place additional isolators between them. You don't want any more than 2' between isolators. This again is done to avoid flexing of the 3/4" plywood. An extra rubber grommet is shown in the drawing below right under the middle of the couch. This grommet is there to keep the platform from flexing.

5. Also, because the drivers need to be strategically placed on the plywood to clear structures underneath the chairs and couches, it seems most BOSS applications have the edge of the speakers visible once placing the seating pieces over them. This is easily remedied by covering the BOSS with carpet and simply cutting relief cuts in the carpet as it crests over that side of the driver. Below is a picture of what I'm talking about showing the carpet covering one of the drivers.

6. For the signal, I'm just using an LFE feed from the AVR going to the BOSS amp. The LPF for LFE setting in the AVR is set to 80Hz. I've found once you start going over 80Hz, the feeling isn't natural. Also, because the drivers are mounted upside down in some applications and right side up in other applications, try different phase settings for the BOSS (basically reverse positive and negative at the BOSS amplifier connection or at the BOSS itself). Try it both ways, in-phase and out of phase. One way will work best. You'll know it when you try reversing polarity. It's an obvious difference. So far, it seems those with drivers mounted magnet up (mini-riser BOSS) will be running in-phase and those with magnets down will be running out-of-phase (full size riser BOSS).

7. For those with mini-DSP's between the AVR and the BOSS platform, an LPF between 15-30 Hz is reported as working best. I guess it's probably a different filter that's being used in the AVR's with a different slope perhaps or perhaps a case of where that knee of the signal is being defined differently between AVR's and mini-DSP.

Hope this helps.

Isolator Link, For a mini-riser BOSS, select the 2.5" hemisphere isolator (1.25" tall). For the the full size riser BOSS, select either the 1" or 1.25" hemisphere isolator depending how high you want your riser to stand above the floor. Either height will work for the full size riser BOSS, the key is to isolate the entire riser from the floor below.

https://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Sili...rum-convert-20

BOSS Drawings and Guidelines:



Picture of how to carpet and "hide" the drivers so you can't see them once the chair or couch is placed over them.

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Last edited by trhought; 03-30-2019 at 07:11 PM.
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post #30 of 1636 Old 02-16-2019, 05:03 PM
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I'm super new to all of this, but reading about your speaker platform system has been very interesting. Several times you mention that the SPL is low from this setup, which of course makes sense; but the tactical response is very good. I've never really experienced either, so my question is: Do you still need low reaching subs elsewhere in order to get the full ULF experience? If not, this is a tremendous discover, as all the deepest subwoofer builds I've seen were huge and expensive. It appears as if this BOSS also has the benefit of not projecting tons of sound where it's not needed or desired.

For reference, my makeshift theater is in my basement, where I also have a tenant. It would be great to keep the projected sound down, and simply get the feeling of ULF, especially if it's nearly the same experience.
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