Floating floor on concrete to enhance tactile subwoofer effect? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 40 Old 12-06-2018, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Floating floor on concrete to enhance tactile subwoofer effect?

Some thoughts please on the following questions:

1. Presumably subwoofers won't shake concrete floors. So, do I need to install some kind of floating floor on top of my concrete slab to obtain 'bass shake' from my 2 x 18" subwoofers?

2. If so, what would be the cheapest and lowest (in terms of built height) solution? I have currently allowed for a 32mm door jamb step (that will be sound-proof sealed) into the room, but could probably raise that up slightly. I assume tongue and groove OSB (19mm?) on something - horse mats? If the floating floor is very high I'll need to either build a step outside the entrance door, or recess the floating floor back away from the entrance door inside the room.

3. As an added bonus, would the simple floating floor improve isolation from the main house structure (i.e. sound-proofing)?

4. Would bass shakers be a simpler and/or better solution?

My strawbale home cinema build | DMP-UB300 | JVC DLA-RS400 (X550/5000) | DIY SeymourAV XD acoustic 125" 16:9 | Denon AVR-X4400H running 5.2.4 | B&W DM602 S3 fronts | B&W LCR60 centre | B&Ws 685s front and rear heights | B&W 686 side surrounds | DIY 2x18" Subs - Mach5 IXL-18 sonotubes | Behringer inuke6000
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post #2 of 40 Old 12-06-2018, 04:15 PM
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The floated floors on rubber pad that I've installed were in the designs mainly for room sound isolation. Including rooms built on concrete. Any tactile feel was a subtle benefit. If you want to feel your movie in a significant way consider bass shakers attached to the seating.
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post #3 of 40 Old 12-06-2018, 04:56 PM
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Erskine guys did my room, which is in basement on concrete with concrete wall on couple sides. Floor was 3/4” OSB then serenity mat then 3/4” OSB. People talk about not getting tactile feeling on concrete but I have a completely different experience. I’m running 4 Seaton F18s and 4 inwall Triad balancing subs in back.

Bass is extremely impressive and you feel it throughout your body. I just had it recalibrated and I swear my hair moved on a LFE scene. My room is sealed and that helps tremendously


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post #4 of 40 Old 12-06-2018, 08:38 PM
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I did 1/4 inch high density foam, then pressure treated 2x4s laying flat, then 3/4 inch tongue in groove OSB for the very reason you mentioned, better bass rumble. Works great, i would do it again. If i turned the 2x4s on their side, the rumble would be even better, but i didnt want to give up that much height.
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post #5 of 40 Old 12-06-2018, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
I did 1/4 inch high density foam, then pressure treated 2x4s laying flat, then 3/4 inch tongue in groove OSB for the very reason you mentioned, better bass rumble. Works great, i would do it again. If i turned the 2x4s on their side, the rumble would be even better, but i didnt want to give up that much height.

Actually Steve, it was your theatre build thread that got me thinking that I needed to do something! You might have noticed in my signature I have benefited from your sonotube design (it was your idea wasn't it?). So Cheers!. Anyway, I have some questions for you:


1. What spacing did you use between the 2x4?



2. Do you think I could either rip them to say, 35mm across x 19mm high (or even 12.5mm) or perhaps do without them entirely - i.e., just the high density foam strips, say 70mm wide, spaced under the OSB?


3. You appear to be suffering from hyperbass syndrome (I just made that up) - and so have a huge amount of power to get things shaking. If you only had 2 x 18" subs would you still add the floating floor?

My strawbale home cinema build | DMP-UB300 | JVC DLA-RS400 (X550/5000) | DIY SeymourAV XD acoustic 125" 16:9 | Denon AVR-X4400H running 5.2.4 | B&W DM602 S3 fronts | B&W LCR60 centre | B&Ws 685s front and rear heights | B&W 686 side surrounds | DIY 2x18" Subs - Mach5 IXL-18 sonotubes | Behringer inuke6000
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post #6 of 40 Old 12-06-2018, 11:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwthacker View Post
Erskine guys did my room, which is in basement on concrete with concrete wall on couple sides. Floor was 3/4” OSB then serenity mat then 3/4” OSB. People talk about not getting tactile feeling on concrete but I have a completely different experience. I’m running 4 Seaton F18s and 4 inwall Triad balancing subs in back.

Bass is extremely impressive and you feel it throughout your body. I just had it recalibrated and I swear my hair moved on a LFE scene. My room is sealed and that helps tremendously

About hair moving, I had a small powered sub, 12" in a concrete bunker - a garage with a single door, all other walls were rock or concrete block. The acoustics were such that I had a massive peak around 50hz (I think it was) and when I stood near the rear of the room, on LFEs my ears felt like they do when you descend in an aircraft and the hairs on my arms stood on end. I thought I was imaging the hairs but a friend said he experienced the same thing, and that was without any prior mention (and so suggestion) from me as to my experience. It must have somehow pressurised the room at that "high" frequency. It even made me think about purposely designing a subwoofer tuned to that much higher frequency, with the biggest hump I could produce; the antithesis of smooth uniform bass response so commonly desired, particularly for music listening. But for movies - wow!


Anyway, I think there must be two effects; 1, sound pressure waves on the person and 2, rumble and vibration through the structure (to the person). I suppose both are desirable?

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post #7 of 40 Old 12-07-2018, 04:14 AM
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@UltimateUser - I did not create the idea of a sonosub, that was happening way before me, but i brought some popularity to large and low tuned designs when there werent a whole lot of <20hz subs.


1. What spacing did you use between the 2x4?

12 inches on center, so 8.25 inches between boards.


2. Do you think I could either rip them to say, 35mm across x 19mm high (or even 12.5mm) or perhaps do without them entirely - i.e., just the high density foam strips, say 70mm wide, spaced under the OSB?

You could do 1x4s flat and not have to rip anything. I dont have experience with it, but i would personally worry about the feeling of the foor if only doing foam or rubber strips under OSB - i would imagine the lumber adds rigidity. Also, the higher the floor is suspended, the more rumble or bounce i would have to think you get.


3. You appear to be suffering from hyperbass syndrome (I just made that up) - and so have a huge amount of power to get things shaking. If you only had 2 x 18" subs would you still add the floating floor?

Yes. I used to live in a townhouse that was carpet on a concrete slab when i was running just the two 18 LLTs, and while the bass sounded amazing, there was virtually no rumble in the room, definitely no bounce. When i moved into my current house and ran just one 18 LLT upstairs in the living room (main floor over the basement) with a tv, the bass experience was much much better.
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post #8 of 40 Old 12-07-2018, 04:25 AM
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Bass loses a incredible amount of..."Shake"...with distance, in my room, I have my 18`s as close as possible, like 2 inches behind the seats firing directly into my backside , the shake is incredible and I am on a concrete floor.



I moved them once up to the front of the room, approx. 8 feet away and lost all that wonderful tactile shake, I moved them back as fast as possible...…….once you have them directly behind the seats, there is no going back.




I also have some decent shakers that I do not use much at all with the 18`s, I got them when I had smaller subs, with the 18`s behind the seats, they do very little compared to a 18...……



Give them a try just to see what`s possible, some people love it, others hate it...…..most people really like it

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
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post #9 of 40 Old 12-07-2018, 06:12 AM
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My theater isn't a dedicated room, but it's closed on 3 sides with concrete walls and about 1/4 of the fourth side with regular 2x4s and drywall. I have no soundproofing in the room and I'm on a concrete floor with standard Dricore http://dricore.com/nw/index.php, a carpet mat, and carpet on top. I have one Marty Cube with an 18" driver in front and the first row's about 10-11' away. My first row is sitting on the floor and the second row is on a riser. I can definitely feel the bass in both rows. I get a pretty good rumble. The rumble in the back row on the riser is even more significant. It's provides a pretty nice tactile feel. I've never sat in a seat with bass shakers so I can't compare, but the tactile feel I get in the back row is pretty nice.
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post #10 of 40 Old 12-07-2018, 06:26 AM
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Yes, the back row will have more rumble because of the wooden riser, so the idea was to try and make the whole room a riser over the concrete.

Nearfield is great if you can accomodate it. Your chair will get a lot of rumble - i still dont think the concrete floor will though.
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post #11 of 40 Old 12-07-2018, 11:45 AM
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How did you guys handle the different floor heights from the adjoining room(s)?
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post #12 of 40 Old 12-07-2018, 11:56 AM
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Your can't overlook the impact of nulls and peaks in room response in this discussion. Location in a room and corresponding increase and decrease in chest pounding bass can far exceed the effect of a riser. Playing content and simply walking around a room is something you need to experience to understand what I'm talking about.

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post #13 of 40 Old 12-07-2018, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkinneb View Post
How did you guys handle the different floor heights from the adjoining room(s)?
I really didn't have different floor heights to deal with from the adjoining room. I did have a big concrete hump where my lead drain pipe comes down from the kitchen and into the basement floor, though. It was probably about 2-3" high in the middle and cascaded out a few feet.

You can see the hump in this picture. You can also see the hole I had for the cleanout to the main drain, which I wanted to keep access to in the future. You'd never know either of them was under the riser so it worked out well for me.


Luckily, I was able to build my riser over the hump using BIG's tried and true method so I was able to essentially suspend the riser joists over the hump. I used steps on the side and front of the riser. I built a piece on the step to give access to the cleanout if I ever need it and it doubles as a spot to hide my power pack, etc. to power all my LED lights.




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post #14 of 40 Old 12-07-2018, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
The floated floors on rubber pad that I've installed were in the designs mainly for room sound isolation. Including rooms built on concrete. Any tactile feel was a subtle benefit. If you want to feel your movie in a significant way consider bass shakers attached to the seating.
Do you happen to know if they make wireless versions of bass shakers?
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post #15 of 40 Old 12-07-2018, 03:42 PM
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Do you happen to know if they make wireless versions of bass shakers?

Yes, here is one option: https://www.htmarket.com/bk-kit-4.html


You could put together your own version with a wireless speaker connector and an extra amp you might have laying around. The aura pro shaker is $50, a wireless subwoofer adapter is $50 you just need to add an amp.
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post #16 of 40 Old 12-18-2018, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Also, the higher the floor is suspended, the more rumble or bounce i would have to think you get.
So you think that the rumble is coming more from lateral movement rather than vertical (like a drum skin)? If so, that's a pain because I'm trying to maximize ceiling height from the ATMOS separation of ceiling and surround speakers.


(Can anyone tell me how to do the @ thingy?)

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post #17 of 40 Old 12-19-2018, 12:18 AM
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While not always a option, 18`s behind each seat and I am on concrete and it shakes the recliner violently...…..my feet are never on the ground as the recliner at least has my feet propped up or I am curled up.


I cant imagine the floor vibrating and the cone shaking my entire body is even comparable...….


The ideal set up is nearfield and crowsons, but that might be out of budget ……


My shakers only go down to about 15hz, so I do not even use them anymore since the nearfield 18 goes below 10hz...…


@SBuger has been on both, maybe he can give you some details to help.

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
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I missed that bit of your post.



Quote:
Originally Posted by gwthacker View Post
Erskine guys did my room, which is in basement on concrete with concrete wall on couple sides. Floor was 3/4” OSB then serenity mat then 3/4” OSB.

So was that OSB placed flat directly on the concrete floor? No joists or anything (unlike Steve's raise floor)? and you still get the tactile shake?

My strawbale home cinema build | DMP-UB300 | JVC DLA-RS400 (X550/5000) | DIY SeymourAV XD acoustic 125" 16:9 | Denon AVR-X4400H running 5.2.4 | B&W DM602 S3 fronts | B&W LCR60 centre | B&Ws 685s front and rear heights | B&W 686 side surrounds | DIY 2x18" Subs - Mach5 IXL-18 sonotubes | Behringer inuke6000
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post #19 of 40 Old 01-02-2019, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by UltimateUser View Post
I missed that bit of your post.






So was that OSB placed flat directly on the concrete floor? No joists or anything (unlike Steve's raise floor)? and you still get the tactile shake?


Sorry I just now saw your question. Yes OSB was directly on the concrete floor. Not a raised floor. I have 8 subs in room- 4 seatons upfront and 4 balancing Triads in back. Room is virtually sealed (although my entrance doors are being redone), so room gets energized.


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post #20 of 40 Old 01-02-2019, 06:01 AM
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I have two Monolith 15's. One behind my false wall and one on the riser nearfield on the second row. I definitely get more tactile response if I sit in the second row as the subwoofer is directly behind the seats and on the same riser. It's a fun sensation. My room is smallish but I also installed Aurasound Pro shakers in all the seats and am loving it. I am powering all six of them with an iNuke 3K DSP amp and put in a low pass filter so they only receive bass below 60hz. They are great for action movies and I highly recommend going with tactile transducers. You can spend very little or thousands but I am a big fan of the Aurasound Pro's. I think I paid about $40 apiece+shipping by waiting for coupons and sales.
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post #21 of 40 Old 01-02-2019, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
The floated floors on rubber pad that I've installed were in the designs mainly for room sound isolation. Including rooms built on concrete. Any tactile feel was a subtle benefit. If you want to feel your movie in a significant way consider bass shakers attached to the seating.
I have a tangential question regarding a floating floor on concrete slab. One school of thought (via TheSoundProofingCompany) is to place the perimeter stud walls on the Serenity Mat/OSB substate and attach the top plates to the ceiling joist with 1B3 clips. Not sure how the bottom plates are attached to the OSB. The other (more conventionally) method is for the floor to be independent of the walls that are attached to the concrete floor using tapcons..etc. In either scenario clips/hat/DD/GG provide the sound proof envelop and the stage /risers are attached only to the floor. Given your statement that the floating floor is mostly for sound isolation, does it matter which of the aforementioned wall construction techniques are followed (advantages/disadvantages)?

Thanks
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post #22 of 40 Old 01-02-2019, 06:13 PM
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in the event of a water event, like a leaky water tank that you don't notice for a week, the floor will probably need to come out. Do you want it under your walls?
You can still cut strips of rubber pad and put under the bottom plate of the wall for isolation value.
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post #23 of 40 Old 01-05-2019, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
in the event of a water event, like a leaky water tank that you don't notice for a week, the floor will probably need to come out. Do you want it under your walls?
You can still cut strips of rubber pad and put under the bottom plate of the wall for isolation value.

In terms of general room isolation, do you recommend putting strips of rubber pad (or other isolation) under the bottom plate of the wall (assuming the top of the wall is isolated)?

Bob
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post #24 of 40 Old 01-05-2019, 12:50 PM
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If you are doing the top, you should do the bottom. It is a 2% item, not often done but really makes sense.
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post #25 of 40 Old 01-05-2019, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
If you are doing the top, you should do the bottom. It is a 2% item, not often done but really makes sense.

Does make sense. Do you just drill through the bottom plate, the rubber isolation, and into the concrete and install (extra long) concrete screws? Or would that ruin the isolation? (And if you don't do this, how do you prevent the bottom of the wall from moving?)

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post #26 of 40 Old 01-05-2019, 01:28 PM
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I never use screws just a few power activated nails will keep it from moving side to side, the weight will keep it from jumping up and down. You should be able to fire through the wood and rubber.


I'm not the first to suggest isolating the bottom, https://kineticsnoise.com/arch/wallmat.html
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post #27 of 40 Old 01-06-2019, 09:10 AM
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I used horse mat from TSC and regular concrete nails. I did pre drill 1/8" through the bottom plate
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post #28 of 40 Old 01-06-2019, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
If you want to feel your movie in a significant way consider bass shakers attached to the seating.
This or use subwoofers as bass shakers on a mini-riser.....these are the 12" JBL's that go on sale for $29 each occasionally at best buy. Supplying about 80 watts to each subwoofer and the tactile effect is jaw dropping on this mini-riser...a little over 1" tall for the front row.

Also have 3 of these JBL's in the back riser and it provides the same tactile feel back there....truly incredible.

Just make sure to keep the input frequency below about 80 Hz for near-field and they blend quite nicely with the farfield subs.....very believable and not gimmicky at all.

12" woofers as shakers underneath front row couch pieces....this is a sleeper sofa.



Woofers strategically located to not interfere with sleeper sofa mechanicals



The recliner sub...a recliner fits over the top of this one



Underneath the mini-riser.....rubber grommets were located so they support each leg of each couch piece directly above them



Carpet finished.....final look....about 1.5" total height for the mini-riser.



Back row riser with subs as shakers



One of the couch pieces in place to show how woofer is positioned relative to seating

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post #29 of 40 Old 01-06-2019, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkinneb View Post
I used horse mat from TSC and regular concrete nails. I did pre drill 1/8" through the bottom plate

Something like this?


Rubber Stall Mat

Bob
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post #30 of 40 Old 01-06-2019, 01:52 PM
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the composition of horse stall mats varies by region so you are going to need to check it out. It should have spring and not be hard like a hockey puck. Cut with a hook nose knife blade in your utility knife. The price keeps going up and they do have occasional sales.
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