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post #1 of 30 Old 02-04-2019, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Question Home Cinema Build layout/measurements

Long time ago I used this forum to calibrate my screens in a suboptimal setting (living room with lots of echo)...
Now the time has come that there will be a big chance I am able to start a new-build (house), therefore I am free to create a cinema room (Home theatre room).

The idea is to create a room with the ability to place 2 rows (first row 2 seats, second row optional 3 seats).
First row will be primary seating position.
Furthermore, the room will have an LCD/OLED! (This because of HDR & 4K). This limits me to max 70 inch diagonal. Effective screen will likely between 60 en 70 inch, depending how affordable at the time the house is finished (1.5 year from now).

Seating will be adjusted to this screen size!

Ideally the room will have max dimensions of 5.5 meters length times 3.0 meters width and 2.6 meters high.
No windows.

Currently I own a 7.1 set and in the future wish to upgrade/expand (did not invest the last couple of years due to lack of good space). I have been reading about 9.1.6 to 13.2.
See also attached picture.

Furthermore, I have been reading a lot about seating distance. From Visual Acuity vs SMPTE vs THX...
Then I read:
https://www.crutchfield.ca/S-yodq6aw...placement.html
Since I am planning on using an LCD/OLED, the above link is the "only" real source (often mentioned in different forums) which is dealing with 4K distance.
For a 70 inch this would be: 5.8-8.75 feet (first row 1.8 to last row 2.7 meters), which then in turn would not exclude a projector (since I have a room of 5 meter... in length), but for now I use the 70 inch as a guideline, I can always adjust accordingly.

And last item I read a lot about is isolation (soundproofing). The house I am going to build is using "hollow" blocks for better heat and sound isolation. I read a lot about deflectors and absorption material.

Lighting is done with a lighting architect and will probably be combined with a KNX domotic system.

My questions would be:
  1. What would be a wise audio layout to prepare a cinema room for?
  2. The atmos speakers(ceiling), how does this work with multiple seating rows, how to position/guidelines?
  3. "Correct" seating distance for an 4K HDR screen (5.8-8.75 feet (first row 1.8 to last row 2.7 meters))?
  4. Is it advisable to place the receiver inside the media room?
  5. Is absorption/deflection material needed?
Based on the above questions I will sketch a room layout and will post the results back here to confirm and get more feedback. Since we are building in The Netherlands with stone building material it is not easy to change it later on, so first time right would be preferable
If more info is needed please let me know.
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post #2 of 30 Old 02-06-2019, 04:48 PM
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dolby website has atmos suggested speaker locations and angles like your have attached

why only 70 inches, its a big room you can fit a bigger screen
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post #3 of 30 Old 04-09-2019, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,


Had been some time, but the process of working together with an architect is slow and a lot to arrange.
In the meantime we decided to build a basement under the house and the HT room will be moved down


So I made my first drawing, basement will approx be 8 times 12meter.


Main question is what will be the ideal position for a door... Would be nice to enter the room
Exact speaker config will be adjusted in a little later stage. Ideally it will be 11.2/4.6/8
Still need to find/figure out how much atmos is doable and how much bass is needed.
(next step)


For now primary question is to shoot on the attached layout and getting an advice on the door placement. I think pos 4 is not ideal (basstrap, etc.)
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post #4 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 05:13 AM
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door position 1 1/4 would be my pick, Number one pulled down a foot or so. But you will need to plan on mounting acoustical treatments on the door. Not uncommon.

You really need to consider the price of an AV processor capable of managing 11.4.8. before designing for it. 7.x.6 or 9.x.4 is a more reasonable goal that is achievable with mainstream gear.
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post #5 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 06:17 AM
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What's the whole basement look like, with obstacles and support columns?

I wonder if there is an alternative layout that is possible, that might override the HDR that seems to be driving this design? I could see
where 5 seats in a single row could be a 3-4M wide acoustically transparent screen, and offer far better ATMOS audio (7.1.4) and allow
you to get more out of the limited height.
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post #6 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree with keeping it more standard.
But being prepared on 11.?.? is always nice.


Furthermore, I do not have a real limitation to my space (preferably not larger). But smaller is no problem...
It is a new build, full concrete, no limitations with pillars (all flat surfaces). 3 of the walls are concrete, the 4th is brick (where the door is).
Floor is concrete and ceiling is concrete.


It is possible to rotate 90 degrees (either side, no preference).
Screen will be between 2 and 3 meter. Speakers can be behind screen, but read that on sides is better for contrast. (not yet that far).
Initially I wanted an OLED< but since I have the room it will be a beamer...


And last, I build it to support 5 persons (99% will be used by 2, my GF and I).
2 rows, first row (main listening pos) 2 persons, second row 3 listening positions.
first row will deff be recliners, seconds row, only time will tell but space needs to be there.


Space between fully reclined, 50cm, space on side of 3P recliners (if it will be recliners) is 1m each side (to have enough distance from speakers and also have still room to isolate etc).
Hope this gives a little more info.


if dimensions are fixed and door is positioned I will calculate the correct speaker locations and update those in the drawing as well.


Ps. I have seen the insulations on doors made on this forum, this will not be a problem.
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post #7 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 07:31 AM
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Unless the brick wall is removable, that is a limitation. I'd go wider for the room if that is possible.

But I see variance of room space from the original stated max dimensions of 5.5 meters length times 3.0 meters width and 2.6 meters high, to a diagram with a 8m length.


For a room that is 99% two people, is something long these lines something worth looking at? And drag in 2 seats for the extra bodies, as overflow seating.
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post #8 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally it was located on ground-floor (where m2 is more expensive and room should be in balance towards the future)
A basement was decided later and since this is space we can spend we can decide it now (a brick wall cannot be taken down once it is build).


At this moment we are still in the design phase so nothing solid yet, however we would like to become more concrete on what we want in the basement.
The 12x8 is the room we have and needs to be divided by other rooms as well.
Since this room needs to be "future" ready, you never know if kids will come one day... Or when we sell it will be a +++ point.
Therefore I would like to think in 5 bodies instead of a defined 2.


Hope above makes sense. So this is truly a different concept/environment then in my opening post.
We will be using this room 2 hours a day (6/7 days a week) for series/movies. A small kitchenette will be made just outside


So for now, basically I am looking for an answer on how wide does the room need to be? I just calculated back from the size of the 3P recliner plus the 2 sides.
Bigger than 3m the screen will not be! (VETO by GF), somewhere between 2 and 3m.
So in the room as drawn this is no problem.


Can you advise based on the above description what the dimensions should be in your idea (again the 12x8 is fixed, the rest is still flexible).
Thanks for your help
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post #9 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliN00B View Post
Bigger than 3m the screen will not be! (VETO by GF), somewhere between 2 and 3m.
So in the room as drawn this is no problem.
too small
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314viewing-angles/
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post #10 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
Now I am lost, I used this for seating indication:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Opt...ulator-pro.htm
Gives: 6.58 m – 4.19 m

If I use the provided link of acoustic then 60 degrees (4K and 33 degrees for 1080P -> which will move the sweetspot back...). Then I should move closer to the screen?
(In the picture I left in the defined door)
Until now I calculated with 4K, but is this wise?
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post #11 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 11:33 AM
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all the measurements should be to the eyes not the front of the chairs
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post #12 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
all the measurements should be to the eyes not the front of the chairs

Hi, thnx for your feedback, but then I do not understand.
This would mean my seats are too far back and should be closer (resulting in a smaller space...)


When possible could you give me a sample/example visually because I cannot combine above with your comment about "too small".


Currently I get the feeling I am lost...
Help is very much appreciated
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post #13 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 03:09 PM
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let's start over maybe my interpretation of your comments are off, how wide of a screen are you planning? you said 2-3M?
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post #14 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 05:01 PM
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Some clarity for those who don't mess with metric...…

5.5m x 3m x 2.6m is 17.875' by 9.75' by 8.45' high.

The whole basement at 12x8m is 39' by 26'.

A 2m wide screen is 6.5' wide, and 3m wide is 9.75' wide.
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post #15 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 05:15 PM
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The 3m screen would barely fit, and maybe you'd want to rein that in a wee bit. A big challenge is to not light up the room, by the light coming off the screen.

Two other audio related challenges are nodes are spaced close together, so smooth audio response is near impossible, and the front speaker spread is too narrow.
Now your KQ and 3 seat layout is not too bad in keeping speakers off seating. but you also don't want your front row ears to end up at 50% of the room's length,
as you have designed yourself into an audio mess in the small room.

You should be confused because that small space is physically (as in wave science Physics) impossible to get really good audio. The best option would be to explore
a wider room. That narrow room could host a big screen size-wise, plus five seats but one needs to avoid thinking all the beautiful small roomer rooms one sees on the
internet, have good audio reproduction.

A first step is to ask if that brick wall, which is likely a structural wall, could be moved over and create a wider space. That question is all about structural support and plans
for outside the theater, and what square footage that requires. Or maybe the question is could you flip spaces?
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post #16 of 30 Old 04-11-2019, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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The only limitation I have is the 8 x 12 meter.
No limitation on where a wall is positioned or where struts are. Everything is calculated by an engineer when I have decided how it needs to be.


So shoot with your advice, I will make a new layout base don that.
Only primarily req is 5P, from which 2P on first row.
Of course sound is important otherwise I could have done it in my normal living room, so that remark is correct, not only screen matters, but sound equally!!
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post #17 of 30 Old 04-13-2019, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, well after a little thinking I remembered something about rooms and ideal sizes. Found it and here it is with a size of 2.5 Meter high: Sepmeyer = 2.5m - 3.2m - 3.85m
  • Louden = 2.5m - 3.5m - 4.826m
  • Volkmann = 2.5m - 3.75m - 6.25m
  • Boner = 2.5m - 3.15m - 3.975m
I cannot change the height of the basement (that one is fixed).
So searched further and found this:
https://www.salford.ac.uk/research/s...ng-for-studios
Based on the volume one option is to go for:
  • 1 - 2,17 - 3 (ratio)

Which then becomes:
2,5 - 5,425 - 7,5 (meters)

This is "only" 1 meter wider and because of insulation on front and back of room it will end up with 7.5meters effective in length.
Correct?

The only question for myself now is, do I want this, because the wide room leaves me with space for a 4p recliner and that makes a 4p room and additionally I could bring an extra beanbag or some sort in to comfort an additional body...
Screen size can be determined in a later phase...

Is the above proper reasoning?
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post #18 of 30 Old 04-14-2019, 05:19 AM
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I'd watch for close multiples of room dimensions and steer clear of those, to be free of severe nodal issues.

I half expected that block wall to be carrying a live load above. If not, and that wall's placement isn't all about the spaces outside the room, I would suggest the theater space drive the basement design.
It's likely to be where the most money is spent, or time and energy if it's mostly DIY driven.

I think that's mostly realistic thinking and a step up, exploring alternative layouts. Design criteria is an entry are to host a large media collection, plus be able to extend some wow features, to a performance
driven dark cave of a viewing environment. Other criteria are to host the av rack, outside the room, but have a screen sight line from the rack. I also want the projector out of the room, in a hush box as a low noise
floor is a design given. Being able to play reference levels with the throw distances is more about speaker off center axis then outright SPL capability since the seating is close enough to speakers, while also not being
right on top of any surround speakers, including the overhear ATMOS speakers.

The last design criteria is my D-Box platform is capable of 800 pounds of people and seats, so the three seats is the bottom line, while I really prefer the idea of five. No four seat option is on my wish list, as I want
the time aligned money seat. I also don't have this space yet, as I am looking at flexibility to get a wider space, for this and go for 5 seats.

I could shorten the room, by simply hosting front speakers in a baffle wall, and not having media storage in the entry. I also could shorten the entry into a small area, and host the hush box and projector in a more storage
driven space, with a hidden door., and get most of the flavor of the entry wow features.
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post #19 of 30 Old 04-14-2019, 05:50 AM
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It could be fours seats, and be something along these lines.

There's no significant speaker throw distances so one could mix some potent front speakers with in wall speakers for all surround and any overhead channels.

You could save preserve width by using commercial cinema rocker style seats, and basically host 5 seats wide, at slightly over 3M of width. You also could not bother
with a hush box and embedded projector, and put more depth in the room.
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post #20 of 30 Old 04-14-2019, 05:56 AM
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The JBL demo room hides the entry door up front, in a shadow box type front, designed to suck up light coming off a screen. It also marries cutting edge ATMOS and gear, with
commercial theater style seating. A bit of a disconnect between those two, but it also is about really good audio and fitting seating in.

This WaterFall Audio room is a pretty good example of a wide single row seat layout, and big screen and how such a room might look. Pretty large but I expect it could scale down nicely enough.
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post #21 of 30 Old 04-14-2019, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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In the meantime I made a sketch of my proposed room. As per attached.
Widened the room a bit...


I agree about finishing and e.g. a hush box. I was not planning to put it behind a wall.
Furthermore, the audio/video gear/electronic is stored in a different area of the basement (together with other house related mechanical/electrical equipment).
So I do not have annoyance of sound from fans or lights coming of these devices. Additionally I am running my gear wirelessly for the last decade so that should not be a problem.


Since this is our hobby it is important that decent chairs fit in (like the recliners mentioned).
Second row can be but not necessary. Might be normal chairs with bar (not likely...).
At this moment I stopped looking at screen size, but merely about room for persons and couch/recliners to fit and audio.
Would the attached room be more sufficient (to create a nice and very well sounding environment)?
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post #22 of 30 Old 04-14-2019, 02:37 PM
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Definitely a nice big substantial step up, for audio reproduction. That space should also feel rather luxurious and also has an opportunity to hide subs/speakers up front and
have an acoustically transparent wall present a video image, floating on a sea of black, distraction-free.

Now do a sight line diagram, as a design tool, as you should be working and thinking 3D. That will let you also explore second row sightlines, riser height, and look at things
like projector throw distance and if that impacts on riser circulation space.

The things that stand out, is front row seated ears might be very close to the center depth of the room. Too many peaks and nulls there, for smooth audio reproduction.

Headroom for the projector and maybe the screen might be a bit of the smaller side then it need be. Not a big thing but maybe a missed opportunity to have all speakers behind
an AT screen?

Not enough space between the second row and front seats, if you use recliners.


Do you need the gain of having your subs in the corners? That area might be better utilized for some bass trapping.
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post #23 of 30 Old 04-14-2019, 02:51 PM
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Reliners are often a little too comfortable for myself. Way too easy to drift off if I am tired, despite 2,000 plus watts and a rather tactile sound system.

And if I can't get the perfect next house, and need to compromised width-wise, then I will explore something like Destiny's premium seat offerings,
that kind of straddle commercial and recliner.
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post #24 of 30 Old 09-03-2019, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello Gents!
Has been a while since I am nowadays heavily involved in the process of getting the house plans ready... Started of by the idea of outsourcing everything, where I am ending up by doing a lot myself (just to have it right).
And now I get to the point of mapping the cinema layout -> goal is to have all wires and cables somewhat in the correct spot.


For now my first step is to get the screen size aligned with room and seating distance.
I have drawn the recliners in place and a 160"WIDE (no diagonal) size screen. My example has been to follow the layout of: Oklahomie


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...ter-build.html


Be aware, all measurements are in metric (Millimetres)!
Drawing is made in AutoCAD (as its layers are important to my architects).


Based on the following website:
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314viewing-angles/


My viewing angles are between 36 and 60 degrees (first row might go back a little when I dive deeper into sound and distance from the back -> ideally everything goes a little more to the back).
I am not planning on a bar at the back since in the room besides this room a pantry exists with everything I need.
Walls are fixed -> door can be moved!


Speakers not yet aligned (9.1.x or 11.1.x not yet decided).


All feedback welcome, but ideally the first question to be answered is the seating distance and screen size.
Please see attached jpg for information (made it A3 portrait and dimensions in black). If I can improve let me know!
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post #25 of 30 Old 09-04-2019, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Taken the liberty today to plot the speaker layout (left side only in my drawing).
Based on below layout recommendation.


I have drawn the main listening position and have adjusted the screen visual lines to this centre point.
Same holds for listening:

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/11...etup-guide.pdf


I try to keep the back row 1 meter from the back!
Furthermore 50cm between 1st row and 2nd row.


Speakers have been moved in the respected "hot" areas without taken attention of "distances".
A smaller screen makes the 1st row viewing angle better, but makes the 2nd row critical (36degrees or smaller not yet tested.)
Chairs are as far back as possible I think...


Speaker listening position is now purely on prime seating, should this be more "leveled", lets say more a central point behind the main position?
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post #26 of 30 Old 09-05-2019, 10:16 AM
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Maybe I missed this in your post, but do your room dimensions include soundproofing treatments? You said that 3 of your 4 walls, the ceiling and the floor were concrete... if you do not put up any sound treatments, that room is going to echo like crazy. I have our HT below the garage, all concrete on all 6 side, and it is an absolute echo chamber currently. So, what I'm trying to point out is that you need to take the dimensions of the sound treatments into account or else your final room dimensions could wind up smaller than anticipated. I hope this makes sense.

One other thing worth taking into account is the HVAC venting which typically goes in the ceiling. If your current ceiling height is 2.6m, then putting HVAC vents in the ceiling is going to drastically reduce your ceiling height unless you put them in soffits. Or, you might put the vents in the brick wall, or you could also consider talking to your contractor about lowering the floor in your HT by a half a meter or so... there are several people here that have gone that route. The point is to take all of this into consideration before the concrete is poured!

I've attached a pic of our HT that is partially framed (for sound treatment purposes) so you can get a better idea of what I'm talking about...
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post #27 of 30 Old 09-05-2019, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mumbles60 View Post
Maybe I missed this in your post, but do your room dimensions include soundproofing treatments? You said that 3 of your 4 walls, the ceiling and the floor were concrete... if you do not put up any sound treatments, that room is going to echo like crazy. I have our HT below the garage, all concrete on all 6 side, and it is an absolute echo chamber currently. So, what I'm trying to point out is that you need to take the dimensions of the sound treatments into account or else your final room dimensions could wind up smaller than anticipated. I hope this makes sense.

You are correct, floor and sealing, as well as 3 walls are being concrete. 1 wall is brick with high absorption/dampening.
Floor is standard insulated/soundproofed. Sealing is a little lowered like many owners do for light string, star heaven in middle and HVAC on sides and maybe some spots.
Sides is also insulated same way as quoted in the room of Oklahomie (actually you can take this as a reference for mine).
Behind the screen is a false wall, with sound proofing. But yeah, I need to do sound proofing otherwise the sound will also travel the house and I think other members wont like it that much :-D



Quote:
Originally Posted by mumbles60 View Post
One other thing worth taking into account is the HVAC venting which typically goes in the ceiling. If your current ceiling height is 2.6m, then putting HVAC vents in the ceiling is going to drastically reduce your ceiling height unless you put them in soffits. Or, you might put the vents in the brick wall, or you could also consider talking to your contractor about lowering the floor in your HT by a half a meter or so... there are several people here that have gone that route. The point is to take all of this into consideration before the concrete is poured!

What do you think about position versus screen and speakers?



There is an entry and an exit point in the sealing. I was planning on building with flex hoses like in your picture. We have an different climate, so it might not be so drastically. But I will ask my HVAC engineers to cover this part specifically for this room. Because at this moment it is engineered as a blow in room (where they suspect there is an exit below the door (which is not there).
I do not have a real option to lower the room that much.... I can create multiple entry and exit point from the sealing so I can save on routing channel under the sealing. Might think of that (good advice)!



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Originally Posted by mumbles60 View Post
I've attached a pic of our HT that is partially framed (for sound treatment purposes) so you can get a better idea of what I'm talking about...

Thnx
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post #28 of 30 Old 09-05-2019, 02:08 PM
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My preference is to build the steps filling in the whole gap between the chair arm and the wall, that way it is difficult for someone to accidentally step down where there is no step and injure themselves.

some pictures here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...big-steps.html
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post #29 of 30 Old 09-05-2019, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
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My preference is to build the steps filling in the whole gap between the chair arm and the wall, that way it is difficult for someone to accidentally step down where there is no step and injure themselves.

some pictures here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...big-steps.html

Hi Jeff, thanks I updated the drawing accordingly. Since I was/am still moving stuff around it had not been adjusted/thought off at all!
So good idea and updated the drawing immediately, deff looks better!
In the meantime I also moved the 2 reclined recliners closer. When not reclined the space between is bigger than 20" (50 centimetres). Reclined it is 20cntimeters, which is good enough.
This makes the front row viewing angle better and also the speaker location based on the main listening position is improving for second row. (I think)



Also thank you for the pictures, it actually makes clear what I meant on how to finish the sealing:


Sides Sealing:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...6&d=1505832148


Middle Sealing:
https://www.avsforum.com/photopost/d...f95_image.jpeg
(In which 4 atmos speakers will be hidden... but first the regular speakers and then the atmos part.)


At this moment however still in doubt about screen size and listening position.
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post #30 of 30 Old 09-08-2019, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Did some additional work on my cinema today:


1. Checked if the beamer did not interfere with the seating/persons. This is still OK, no matter screen height and placement height. So this is positive!
2. Checking for additional information on speaker layout and listening positions, found the following 2 links:


2.1: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...s-seating.html
This describes that using dipoles might help in creating an overall surround sound


2.2: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...guidelines.pdf
This describes an average listening position between my 2 rows. At this moment still unsure if this is the way to go.


At this moment I think my layout is still quite OK, no red flags, however some confirmation would be nice.


Just came across this site:
https://www.residentialsystems.com/t...ve-audio-world
However I have not read on this forum about aiming on listening area instead of MLP...

Last edited by CaliN00B; 09-08-2019 at 10:05 AM.
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