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post #1 of 15 Old 03-17-2019, 05:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Finally Ready to start.

Just a quick disclaimer, I'm a ultra noob when it comes to the HT but have been into car audio for many years and have pumped out 161dB on the lab under the dash!


Anyways, I've got a quick video people can watch, or not showcasing my first design for my Home Theatre. The room is 7 Meters wide and 8 Meters long and only has 2.9 Meter ceilings, It's what I got and I have to deal with it, Ideally would love the room to be at least 2 Meters longer and 1 Meter Higher.



The Columns holding the Powered 15" will be sand filled and the structure of the room is Brick about 100mm thick, I've only just made an order for some insulation primarily for the ceiling which will be 25mm MDF, Which is the same material the columns are made of.


In the video there is a Piece of Glass representing the Screen which is 150" (Acoustically transparent) along with the front panels which will be a cloth material (Black)


Please people if you have any insights into room design of speaker positioning, I would love to hear your recommendations.

P.S the receiver is a Denon AVR-X8500Hand I'll be running my designed Fronts and Center's from what ever full range 2000 WRMS 2ch rack amps I can afford, the 8 Subwoofers (15"s) will run off of 4 Behringer NU6000DSP iNUKE 6000W.


The Power is 240v with a 100 Amp limit....I've recently run 3 cables of 16 square millimetre 3 core to the room each can handle around 45 amps and I'll have 3x 30amp (breakers) Here we call them Safety Switches. So I hope I wont be tripping any of them as it should have a capacity of 18260 Watts with a 15% safety margin.


Thank you all for reading here is the link to the quick video.
As I have only One post please put the Dott's after the www and the com and remove all the spaces after that, Sorry people's









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post #2 of 15 Old 03-17-2019, 06:13 AM
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22.75' wide x 26' long x 9.425' high.

I don't think you need a bigger space in any dimension, but why all the excess speaker overkill that you will never come close to needing?

I'd be more concerned about the room's noise floor and all the reflective elements you have in there. I'd be looking to move the refrigerator
and the av rack, out of the room. Instead of an sound system capable of 150 db, I'd be looking to drive the noise floor down into the low 20 db range.
That would be far less harmful on your hearing, and let you hear everything from a whisper, to a loud explosion not having you jump for the volume key.

Is that but a five seat room? Why the horn or compression surrounds, when the throw distance isn't excessive?

Why do you need 18,000+ watts with a safety cushion, when 2500 could easily provide you with reference levels? And why 8x15" drivers? Four would be
complete and total overkill. Not that I have an issue with that, except from a budget perspective where I'd want to plant dollars where they'd get me more
value elsewhere.

Speaker positioning might require some toe in of the mains, if you are going outside such a big screen. But if I see the seating correctly, why so far wide,
with a three or four seat wide layout? And then the speakers could all be behind the big screen.
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post #3 of 15 Old 03-17-2019, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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22.75' wide x 26' long x 9.425' high.

I don't think you need a bigger space in any dimension, but why all the excess speaker overkill that you will never come close to needing?

I'd be more concerned about the room's noise floor and all the reflective elements you have in there. I'd be looking to move the refrigerator
and the av rack, out of the room. Instead of an sound system capable of 150 db, I'd be looking to drive the noise floor down into the low 20 db range.
That would be far less harmful on your hearing, and let you hear everything from a whisper, to a loud explosion not having you jump for the volume key.

Is that but a five seat room? Why the horn or compression surrounds, when the throw distance isn't excessive?

Why do you need 18,000+ watts with a safety cushion, when 2500 could easily provide you with reference levels? And why 8x15" drivers? Four would be
complete and total overkill. Not that I have an issue with that, except from a budget perspective where I'd want to plant dollars where they'd get me more
value elsewhere.

Speaker positioning might require some toe in of the mains, if you are going outside such a big screen. But if I see the seating correctly, why so far wide,
with a three or four seat wide layout? And then the speakers could all be behind the big screen.

I must have failed to mention, all the speakers are behind the screen, just not all of them directly behind. The only one directly behind is the centre, I think that's what you're telling me? The Woofers I already have, As the Dennon has 15ch 12ch usable at one time (Atmos) (DTS-X) and (Aura 3d) I've made the speaker amounts for the available channels. I certainly need to look at some sort of sound control, I kinda had a feeling the floor might be a issue. Do you think having faux walls spaced about a inch or so in front of the primary walls, which are brick, I'll have to look into how to position acoustic panelling after calibration. If all speakers and utilities in the room are active i could be looking at a up to 18,00 Watt power draw, So lucky I had a 10Kw solar system installed a few years ago, my power bill would be insane (People here have what we recently been told, the most expensive power bills in the world) I'll Toe in the fronts a bit more, they are toed in but It looks like not enough. Potentially I can seat over 10 people in the room, as this is more a family and close friend environment I don't feel like I need more seating (For now). May I ask why the need to move the Wine cooler and the HT rack (Server rack) from the room? The screen is only 150" only because i don't have the height for a bigger one, but just after measuring the size 150" looks to be pretty huge. As for the speaker design, I'm trying to get the Krix sound/feel but at a much cheaper price as building these would be less than a 8th of the cost of a Krix front stage system...That's kinda what I'm comparing my system to the Cinematrix i believe it's called.


I'm defiantly going to take your advice on the noise floor, for a greater dynamic range, might have to just get carpet!?



Thank you for the time you have put in to replying to my thread, any more input would be greatly appreciated. I'll post a image of the Krix design, the Speakers Might be overkill, I love sound though, I'm saving up for a projector too, might go a 4k one, if my pocket has room.. Home theatre game is really expensive though and I don't want to only go half way, but try to manage this on a relative tight to medium budget.


Thanks again, much appreciated
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post #4 of 15 Old 03-17-2019, 07:36 AM
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That center channel will have likely have a slight timber change compared to your LR mains not behind the screen.

I know of the Krix, but I occasionally catch some horned speakers of a friend, beaming. It's all awesome, right until that happens. But I have also been in a fair
number of very potent home theaters where I never hear that effect.

It's not that I don't appreciate what you are aiming for, but I think you can achieve that objective with other choices, at a cheaper price point.

Not sure you understood my comment about a room's noise floor. A sub 25 db noise floor is something most people never experience. You can still in such a room and it's a little creepy
and a bit unsettling. Sit for a bit and you can hear your heart beat and hear how noisy our bodies are. In such a room, a whisper is heard and intelligible, while loud dynamic events never
have one jumping for the remote, to turn things down. The refrigerator is a noisy item to have in a room, when you are trying to drive down the noise floor. The av rack has a glass reflective
door or large reflective metal surfaces, fans that can add noise, and it creates heat, which might mean you need more airflow to cool the theater.

I asked about seating because five seats in a single row might be a better layout, with a bigger screen and some budget shifted to the projector to drive such a screen. What I do like is the compact seating
arrangement that gets all speakers off of the seating a generous and luxurious distance.

I would use a lot of fabric framed walls for that volume, and hide surround speakers, acoustical treatments.

We're pretty much of the same mind with great sound being important and a tight to medium budget being something that can have punch far above the dollar investment. I'd just approach it differently,
with a low noise floor being a design foundation.

I gather you are in Europe?
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post #5 of 15 Old 03-17-2019, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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That center channel will have likely have a slight timber change compared to your LR mains not behind the screen.

I know of the Krix, but I occasionally catch some horned speakers of a friend, beaming. It's all awesome, right until that happens. But I have also been in a fair
number of very potent home theaters where I never hear that effect.

It's not that I don't appreciate what you are aiming for, but I think you can achieve that objective with other choices, at a cheaper price point.

Not sure you understood my comment about a room's noise floor. A sub 25 db noise floor is something most people never experience. You can still in such a room and it's a little creepy
and a bit unsettling. Sit for a bit and you can hear your heart beat and hear how noisy our bodies are. In such a room, a whisper is heard and intelligible, while loud dynamic events never
have one jumping for the remote, to turn things down. The refrigerator is a noisy item to have in a room, when you are trying to drive down the noise floor. The av rack has a glass reflective
door or large reflective metal surfaces, fans that can add noise, and it creates heat, which might mean you need more airflow to cool the theater.

I asked about seating because five seats in a single row might be a better layout, with a bigger screen and some budget shifted to the projector to drive such a screen. What I do like is the compact seating
arrangement that gets all speakers off of the seating a generous and luxurious distance.

I would use a lot of fabric framed walls for that volume, and hide surround speakers, acoustical treatments.

We're pretty much of the same mind with great sound being important and a tight to medium budget being something that can have punch far above the dollar investment. I'd just approach it differently,
with a low noise floor being a design foundation.

I gather you are in Europe?

Ahh, now i get what you mean about the noise floor, wow that will take some doing...And i totally get it, having such a low base line would be incredible...I don't think I've ever been somewhere that quiet before, hahaha. The Fridge I defiantly can remove, the server rack I might have to build around it and heavily dampen it. Maybe some ply or real wood for the Center channel? I think I might start by building the faux walls will probably loose 250 to 300mm on each wall, but I also don't want the neighbours complaining...In saying that keeping the sound in the room is no1 now. I'm going to do some intense research into lowering the Noise Floor. I have had a quick scan through some of the threads and a lot of people mention you for having a strong belief in a rooms design and "noise floor".....If you could maybe point me in the right direction on some articles i can read or watch, possible your own threads, i would be very thankful.


Again is really appreciate you taking the time for steer me in the right direction and I will most defiantly take your advice in the rooms design, I can totally see how this will greatly impact the experience in a very good way, and I was kinda heading in a certain direction but not exactly the quality one.


Thank you again
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post #6 of 15 Old 03-18-2019, 12:16 AM
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Adding to the great advice you have received from Tedd, another advantage of a quiet room is that you will be less likely to disturb your neighbors. Your room as it is currently designed will likely have a noise floor around 45dB. So if you want 95dB of dynamic range, you will need a maximum SPL on the order of 140dB, which is well within the range of hearing damage. Furthermore, your room construction will optimistically have an STC of 40, which means that sound escaping your theater will be diminished by 40dB. So that means your neighbors will be hearing your theater at a SPL level of 100dB, which is very loud. Every dB drop in your noise floor, will translate directly to an equal dB drop in the levels your neighbors will hear. More importantly, that same 95dB of dynamic range can now be accomplished with much less risk to your hearing. With a noise floor of 20dB, your maximum SPL only needs to be 115dB yet will have the same dynamics as the 140dB example.

In addition to the sound pollution introduced by the rack and refrigerator inside your theater, they also add light pollution, that will destroy your contrast. Granted they are behind those monster subs, but they will still increase the ambient light in the room, which will degrade your contrast.

One of the first things I noticed in the video was the low ceiling height, especially for the back row of seats up on the riser. Rather than bring the whole ceiling down to the level of your speakers, I think your audience would appreciate the extra space above their heads if only the speakers protruded from a higher ceiling. You might also consider ATMOS speakers that are not as deep and/or recessing the Atmos speakers up into the ceiling rafters.

You have the basis for a really nice room. With the right design and construction methods, you could have a great room!

Mike
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post #7 of 15 Old 03-18-2019, 01:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Adding to the great advice you have received from Tedd, another advantage of a quiet room is that you will be less likely to disturb your neighbors. Your room as it is currently designed will likely have a noise floor around 45dB. So if you want 95dB of dynamic range, you will need a maximum SPL on the order of 140dB, which is well within the range of hearing damage. Furthermore, your room construction will optimistically have an STC of 40, which means that sound escaping your theater will be diminished by 40dB. So that means your neighbors will be hearing your theater at a SPL level of 100dB, which is very loud. Every dB drop in your noise floor, will translate directly to an equal dB drop in the levels your neighbors will hear. More importantly, that same 95dB of dynamic range can now be accomplished with much less risk to your hearing. With a noise floor of 20dB, your maximum SPL only needs to be 115dB yet will have the same dynamics as the 140dB example.

In addition to the sound pollution introduced by the rack and refrigerator inside your theater, they also add light pollution, that will destroy your contrast. Granted they are behind those monster subs, but they will still increase the ambient light in the room, which will degrade your contrast.

One of the first things I noticed in the video was the low ceiling height, especially for the back row of seats up on the riser. Rather than bring the whole ceiling down to the level of your speakers, I think your audience would appreciate the extra space above their heads if only the speakers protruded from a higher ceiling. You might also consider ATMOS speakers that are not as deep and/or recessing the Atmos speakers up into the ceiling rafters.

You have the basis for a really nice room. With the right design and construction methods, you could have a great room!

Mike

Awesome advice there and a great explanation,

These are the things I'm after here, some great knowledge and know-how.

Again I'm very grateful to all for this education.....I'll attach some more images that will be clearer of the room design, they are only the first version and don't take into account an little details yet. As the walls are brick approximately 100mm thick close or around 4" I'll add walls on the inside that will be fabric with insulation...How would I achieve greater noise dampening in the ceiling? besides adding MDF instead of plaster and insulation too.


Here are more pictures. (Don't mind the Colours they are only for Twinmotion to distinguish separate textures....Thanks again everyone
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post #8 of 15 Old 03-18-2019, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
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This is a couple of images of the Sub boxes, They have 3 ports of individual length, just for fine tuning.
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post #9 of 15 Old 03-18-2019, 05:18 AM
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Mass and isolation are what you are after. Instead of dropping all that money on excessive bass output, some of that could be directed to the room's shell
and going after a low noise floor.

Instead of building a system capable of overkill and hearing damaging output, the low noise floor would mean everything would play reference levels at substantially less
expense.

I asked about location because of various construction methods, and maybe even product availability. I asked about seating needs because maybe you don't need quite so
big a room, and with a small seating count, there are ways to use some of that space in other ways. A big advantage you have, is how far all the seating is, from boundaries.
But I can see ways to shift budget, time and energy around, (and even space) to maybe come out cheaper with even better overall performance.

The rear subs are maybe a gimmicky choice for me, If they start to blow air into the seating, that's a big distraction. I also really wonder if you actually need them? (I could easily
drop my dual ServoDrive Contrabass subs (2x15" drivers with dual 18" passive radiators) and front three JTR T8s into that space and know I could hit reference levels with ease, so I get
what you are aiming for, and should aim for.)

I would not plant two big subs that could inflate chairs, right on top of seating. I've caught that effect before, and it is a real distraction. Tactile-ness not with standing, but there are better
ways to achieve that.

Why all the MDF at all? Is drywall a common enough product where you are?

The ceiling only looks low, because of the big beams, and the large square footage. My calculations are a 9.4' ceiling height and I expect a pair of beams drop the height to 9'. Do I have that correct?
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With regards to your subs, you need to rethink those ports. They look way to small for the drivers in that size box. I would be concerned that your port velocity would be too high. Also, you should reduce the spacing between all of the drivers in your front speakers to reduce the lobing effect from multiple drivers.

Oh, and from a safety standpoint, I would extend the bottom step of the riser all the way to the back of the riser. Nice drafting program!


Mike
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With regards to your subs, you need to rethink those ports. They look way to small for the drivers in that size box. I would be concerned that your port velocity would be too high. Also, you should reduce the spacing between all of the drivers in your front speakers to reduce the lobing effect from multiple drivers.

Oh, and from a safety standpoint, I would extend the bottom step of the riser all the way to the back of the riser. Nice drafting program!


Mike



Spacing I definatly can reduce, the ports are 3" each, they doo look tiny in the pic's...Maybe a rectangular port, I would have thought 3x3" would be enough as the tuning for the box is around the 15Hz mark...Thanks again for the advice, will be reducing the spacing between each driver.
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post #12 of 15 Old 03-19-2019, 01:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Mass and isolation are what you are after. Instead of dropping all that money on excessive bass output, some of that could be directed to the room's shell
and going after a low noise floor.

Instead of building a system capable of overkill and hearing damaging output, the low noise floor would mean everything would play reference levels at substantially less
expense.

I asked about location because of various construction methods, and maybe even product availability. I asked about seating needs because maybe you don't need quite so
big a room, and with a small seating count, there are ways to use some of that space in other ways. A big advantage you have, is how far all the seating is, from boundaries.
But I can see ways to shift budget, time and energy around, (and even space) to maybe come out cheaper with even better overall performance.

The rear subs are maybe a gimmicky choice for me, If they start to blow air into the seating, that's a big distraction. I also really wonder if you actually need them? (I could easily
drop my dual ServoDrive Contrabass subs (2x15" drivers with dual 18" passive radiators) and front three JTR T8s into that space and know I could hit reference levels with ease, so I get
what you are aiming for, and should aim for.)

I would not plant two big subs that could inflate chairs, right on top of seating. I've caught that effect before, and it is a real distraction. Tactile-ness not with standing, but there are better
ways to achieve that.

Why all the MDF at all? Is drywall a common enough product where you are?

The ceiling only looks low, because of the big beams, and the large square footage. My calculations are a 9.4' ceiling height and I expect a pair of beams drop the height to 9'. Do I have that correct?

The Ceiling height is correct, yes. I was thinking MDF just because of the density compared to Dry wall, I will defiantly now be taking your advice and will have be making both a inner insulating
layer and making all outer surfaces "soft" I guess you would call it? So re-insulating the inner walls and no MDF or Dry wall but Cloth of some nice looking sort, to counteract any reflections..



I've only put two dual subwoofers behind the seating because I already own the driver, but It's looking to be a bad idea if it's going to be a distraction. Would love to hear your recommendations on ow to fill a room and entirely as possible with bass, have no flat or dead spots...


The Location Is Australia, South Australia, Adelaide...Yes we defiantly have dry wall, it's called Giprock here, it's just dry wall, there ae plenty of types of drywall including the theatre Sound dampening dry wall, but man it's big $$$, same goes for the Theatre versions of Insulation. As all inner surfaced will be soft (fabric) with Insulation (sound deadening) directly behind it, I thought I would go with the dense MDF as a extra noise lever reducer, at minimal risk to reflecting sound waves.



I gotta say I'm learning so much on this forum, can't believe It took me so long to join. The room is already on my property, It's was a fully in-closed garage, (2 car) It already has power 2x (240v 10amp) breakers, which will do plenty for any lighting or small/non heavy power drawing appliances. I will be fully enclosing the server rack and the fridge inside a closet of some sort that will flush the whole rear wall, I will also move the doors to the (Left) if you're looking in or (right) if you're looking out of the room.


Things her in AUS are 3-4 time more expensive than in the States, as not only currency exchange but businesses here "up-mark" the living Hell out of stuff. (E.g) The receiver i purchase would have cost me $6000 AUD with 10% GST so $6600 I managed to get a 240v one from the US 3299 USD on special after some intense hunting around, even at flat exchange it should only cost $5600 AUD...It's a huge cost for a single piece of equipment. In the end it ended up costing 4650 AUD which is a massive $1950 saving, Everything is like that unfortunately.. Sorry for the rant.





Thank you for these extremely valuable tip and advice.

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I understand things are far more expensive down there, and that's the case here in Canada also. Enough that I import a lot myself, but we don't suffer the huge markups you guys do.

If you want to utilize those drivers, why not put them in the side walls? They could be treated as in fill subs and be further away from the seating.

Do you have a squared up floor plan of the room with any and all obstacles that need to be accommodated? I could throw many an idea at you. Personally with all that space, plus the low
seat count, there are other ways to use some of that space and put it to good use.
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post #14 of 15 Old 03-21-2019, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I understand things are far more expensive down there, and that's the case here in Canada also. Enough that I import a lot myself, but we don't suffer the huge markups you guys do.

If you want to utilize those drivers, why not put them in the side walls? They could be treated as in fill subs and be further away from the seating.

Do you have a squared up floor plan of the room with any and all obstacles that need to be accommodated? I could throw many an idea at you. Personally with all that space, plus the low
seat count, there are other ways to use some of that space and put it to good use.

Awesome, I'd love to hear your Ideas, I will get to finalizing the floor plans and post the measurements soon.
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post #15 of 15 Old 03-21-2019, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's a quick render with some measurements...
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