The Mermaid Theater (Build Thread) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 53 Old 04-21-2019, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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The Mermaid Theater (Build Thread)

I'll give a whirl at a new construction, dedicated HT build thread here. This is The Mermaid Theater in The Mermaid House. I'll start with a few photos, many more to come soon. Broke ground in June 2018, should be occupying in late April 2019.

21 ft wide; 23 ft deep; 10 ft high (9 ft to the soffits). Located in a concrete bunker. 7.2.4 Atmos.





















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post #2 of 53 Old 05-02-2019, 08:05 AM
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Nice space look forward to seeing it come together

Roll Tide.
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post #3 of 53 Old 05-19-2019, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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More Pics

The colors are way off in the pics. The walls are SW Gibraltar; the trim & carpet is navy blue.





















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post #4 of 53 Old 05-19-2019, 08:50 AM
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Cool looking space! And nice tall ceilings for your Atmos implementation!
Here's to hoping you'll host a movie night for the KC enthusiasts when it all comes together. We are losing ground, activity wise, to the Wisconsin group that @SOWK is organizing.

Something to consider is adding up firing subwoofers to your second row seating riser, underneath the seats. I've only recently started seeing people do it, and really the only person in Kansas City who has done it so far is @carp . He added up firing drivers to his rear riser lately by the methodology coined as BOSS by @trhought . It's pretty incredible. If I were you I'd really take a short while to investigate it --- it'd be easy enough implement at this stage in your build. I've been immersed in this hobby for a decade, heard and experienced a lot of rooms, and the BOSS concept is unique and special for realistic subwoofer based tactile feedback, without going crazy into the land of crazy SPL (sound pressure levels). In fact, if you don't already have subwoofers picked out, you could probably let your room subwoofers be in that riser alone, and get all the bass and tactile reinforcement a typical home theater needs.

More info on BOSS:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...y-theater.html


PS - What's the orgin of the Mermaid theater theme? It's interesting, and not something one would typically expect in land locked Kansas City Mo.
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

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post #5 of 53 Old 05-19-2019, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
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AV Equipment:

Already purchased 11 Triad Silver InWall & InCeiling speakers; about $8000.

The rest is TBD, but here's what I'm looking at:

Monolith by Monoprice 7x200 Watts Per Channel Multi-Channel Home Theater Power Amplifier with XLR Inputs - $1600

Denon AVR-3802 - this 2002 model on hand claims to have equal 110 wpc on all 7 channels - will use 4 of the channels for Atmos - $0

7.2.4 pre/pro

Marantz AV7705 - $2200

or Anthem AVM 60 - $3000

or Yamaha CX-A5100 - $2000

I lean towards the Marantz because it is a current year model with the latest features, such as IMAX. The Anthem is nice but seems overpriced.

2 HSU VTF-15H MK2 Subwoofers 15" 600 watts - $1749 for 2 + $346 shipping = $2095 for 2

or 2 Monolith by Monoprice 15" THX Ultra Certified 1000 Watt Powered Subwoofer - $1300 free shipping = $2600 for 2

Panasonic DP-UB820 Blu-ray UHD - $450

Epson 5050 - $3000
or 5060 - $4000

AT Screen - thinking about trying spandex

Rack - use existing Salamander Synergy Quad System - $0 (runs about $1800)

I'm open to suggestions to alternatives reasonably close to the budget indicated. Thanks.

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post #6 of 53 Old 05-19-2019, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Something to consider is adding up firing subwoofers to your second row seating riser, underneath the seats.

PS - What's the orgin of the Mermaid theater theme? It's interesting, and not something one would typically expect in land locked Kansas City Mo.
I'll check out the subs. If you go back to the first set of pics, you'll see the mermaid flying over the new house. The wife wanted a 3D copper version up there.
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post #7 of 53 Old 05-20-2019, 07:46 AM
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You will get a million opinions on your equipment choices and most of them will be written with conviction. The only thing you do need to reconsider is your subwoofers. Your room looks to be over 4800 cubic feet which will likely not be driven properly with a few 15” woofers. My room is about half the cubic feet and I have dual orbit shifters with no regrets. I would say multiple 18” woofers and possibly need to be ported depending on how many you are willing to get and your placement options. I would hate to see you be underwhelmed with your bass or for your bass to have bad sound because your drivers are not up to the task. If you are handy you can diy. If not I would start looking at JTR. There are many other good companies and I do think HSU is a fine option although the bang for the buck does not compare to JTR.
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post #8 of 53 Old 05-20-2019, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIC2 View Post
AV Equipment:

Already purchased 11 Triad Silver InWall & InCeiling speakers; about $8000.

The rest is TBD, but here's what I'm looking at:

Monolith by Monoprice 7x200 Watts Per Channel Multi-Channel Home Theater Power Amplifier with XLR Inputs - $1600

Denon AVR-3802 - this 2002 model on hand claims to have equal 110 wpc on all 7 channels - will use 4 of the channels for Atmos - $0

7.2.4 pre/pro

Marantz AV7705 - $2200

or Anthem AVM 60 - $3000

or Yamaha CX-A5100 - $2000

I lean towards the Marantz because it is a current year model with the latest features, such as IMAX. The Anthem is nice but seems overpriced.

2 HSU VTF-15H MK2 Subwoofers 15" 600 watts - $1749 for 2 + $346 shipping = $2095 for 2

or 2 Monolith by Monoprice 15" THX Ultra Certified 1000 Watt Powered Subwoofer - $1300 free shipping = $2600 for 2

Panasonic DP-UB820 Blu-ray UHD - $450

Epson 5050 - $3000
or 5060 - $4000

AT Screen - thinking about trying spandex

Rack - use existing Salamander Synergy Quad System - $0 (runs about $1800)

I'm open to suggestions to alternatives reasonably close to the budget indicated. Thanks.
Out of those three Preamps the Marantz and Yamaha are going to give you more choices to hook up older equipment like a turn table or other older equipment like what I have in a 301 DVD player or laser disk player. If you don't have that it's comes done to what you want to spend to me. I think they are all three good, but I agree the Anthem is a little high. Sounds like you have plenty of amps to power any of them.

I agree with jedimastgrant that if you are going all new you might as well go for at least 18". I want to go with a couple 18" DIY subs at some point. Another thing to look at is what Archaea and carp are doing for TR under seat sub woofers. @carp has 12" subs in his back riser and made a mini riser for his front row. @Archaea is test direct mount and and a platform to see which one he likes better. I have two JBL's and isolators to build a platform at some point.

Here is the thread if you want to check it out. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...y-theater.html

I live in the Northland near Liberty, where in the Northland is your new house? You have a nice space to work with and good ceiling height.

Klipsch KPS-400’s FR/FL with built in 15” 300 watt side firing subs, RC-7 Center, RS-3 Surrounds.
Integra DHC-60.5, 5- Marantz MA700 Mono Blocks, Pioneer DV-F727 301 Disk DVD CD Changer, Pioneer DVL-909 Laserdisc/DVD/CD Player, Sony PS3.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...ck-cinema.html
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post #9 of 53 Old 05-20-2019, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIC2 View Post
AV Equipment:
Already purchased 11 Triad Silver InWall & InCeiling speakers; about $8000.


part
part
part
.
.
.
I'm open to suggestions to alternatives reasonably close to the budget indicated. Thanks.

Try the spandex --- it's cheap enough that if you don't like it you won't feel a sting. Missippiman recommends a layer of white or mole skin in front of a layer of black spandex based on his experience. Other than that Seymour AV makes nice fabric for a DIY screen, and has a good reputation on these forums.

-----------

I would second Grant, in his recommendation of a couple JTR subwoofers for a big space - - - or even a pair of JTR Orbit Shifters used if you can find them used would be a great value. I've seen a pair sell as cheap as $3,000-$3,500 if you watch the market. They'll absolutely crush a pair of 15" ported drivers from the likes of SVS or Monoprice (which those subs are good in their own right!)


If you can DIY or assemble yourself you can build a heck of a good subwoofer setup for a low price by going with something like GSG Audio flatpacks and 4 UM18-22 from parts express. For $3k you could have four 18" ported subs and the NX6000D amps to drive them and apply DSP --- and end up with so much more capability than a pair of 15" monoprice subwoofers. (which again aren't bad!)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...community.html

1 of these 4 packs of subwoofer cabinets = $750ish with freight - assembles with NO TOOLS -- just wood glue - fits together like a laser cut 10 piece jigsaw puzzle.
https://shop.gsgad.com/collections/m...eight-shipping


2 of these amplifiers - $550 each - $1100 (1 subwoofer driver per channel - has DSP built in)
https://www.parts-express.com/behrin...-dsp--248-7017
(OR
1 of these - $600 - you'd run two subs off each channel with this amp)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Behringer-NU12000-iNUKE-DJ-Club-12000W-Class-D-lightweight-Power-Amplifier-Amp/283083356447?epid=1728345910&hash=item41e915391f:g :Z-UAAOSw01Jbfyf7:sc:UPSGround!64015!US!-1
with a minidsp for EQ - $200 - https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd )


4 of these subwoofer drivers - $300 each = $1200
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...-coil--295-518


a few odds and end connectors and speaker wire...maybe $100 bucks worth


Boom - right in with the crowd of most capable bass systems on AVSForum.
----------

You may not need the monolith amp. I'd start first with just the Maratz AVR and determine if you actually think you need the amplifier. Frankly most people don't, unless you plan to play at reference levels all the time, and even then...which will cave first the AVR or your speakers? Those Marantz and Denon AVR's now have monoblocks which put out pretty much the full rated power when driven as a single. Fully loaded they'll not put anywhere out their rated power because the powersupply in the AVR can't handle that much load, but individually or in a 2,3 channels driven scenario it is fine -- and in most movies you aren't going to have more than that use case anyway. You can always add the amp later if you think you need it. To determine if you need it - the best way I know is to do sine wave sweeps at 3 or 5dB intervals. See where the frequency response stops going up in parallel. Try that on an AVR, see where you run out of capability. It may be that your speakers don't need anymore power than the AVR can provide in real world duty. That's my opinion and experience anyway. Modern receivers handle being run past their limits very gracefully, and you'd never even know you hit the output limit.
Post 1554 has more info to read about this type of testing:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...l#post40846042

----------

I don't recommend an Epson Projector - but it might be because I'm really frustrated with them right now. I'd recommend you go to a JVC RS-540 instead. Maybe @desertdome can help you locate one. I bought one of their refurb 5040UB. It had a problem out of the box, they returned it and gave me another with problems out of the box, and now the third one I received developed a problem at about 10 hours in.
Post 17422
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58063924

Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

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post #10 of 53 Old 05-21-2019, 06:08 AM
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Great looking theater! Can you tell me how wide are your soffits?
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post #11 of 53 Old 05-21-2019, 09:14 AM
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What size screen are you thinking?

Also do you have a plan for treatments?

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post #12 of 53 Old 05-21-2019, 09:43 AM
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Looks great!
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post #13 of 53 Old 05-21-2019, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIC2 View Post
AV Equipment:
Denon AVR-3802 - this 2002 model on hand claims to have equal 110 wpc on all 7 channels - will use 4 of the channels for Atmos - $0

7.2.4 pre/pro

Marantz AV7705 - $2200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

You may not need the monolith amp. I'd start first with just the Maratz AVR and determine if you actually think you need the amplifier.
Just to be clear, the Marantz 7705 listed is just a pre/pro and doesn't have amplification. There are 2 points I would like to make. One is that your old Denon AVR doesn't have inputs so there is no way for you to get the atmos channel audio in to your old Denon receiver.

The second is that Archaea's suggestion is worth considering if you were to switch to a Marantz SR series over the AV series. You could try using it for all amplification or you could do what I did and use external amplification for your 7 surround channels (like the monolith) and just use the internal amps for your atmos speakers. Works great for that.
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post #14 of 53 Old 05-21-2019, 12:03 PM
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I love those HSU subwoofers. I had one in my room. Then I went on a KC Home Theater Crawl and replaced them with 2 SI 18's and a near field Ultimaxx.
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Nice room space! I would encourage you to look at Rythmik subs for that space in your dollar range. Performance is fantastic. Also, my Outlaw amps powering all speakers do an amazing job of driving the needed power to make all sound spectacular
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post #16 of 53 Old 05-21-2019, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Great looking theater! Can you tell me how wide are your soffits?
30", if I remember correctly.
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post #17 of 53 Old 05-21-2019, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to be clear, the Marantz 7705 listed is just a pre/pro and doesn't have amplification. There are 2 points I would like to make. One is that your old Denon AVR doesn't have inputs so there is no way for you to get the atmos channel audio in to your old Denon receiver.

The second is that Archaea's suggestion is worth considering if you were to switch to a Marantz SR series over the AV series. You could try using it for all amplification or you could do what I did and use external amplification for your 7 surround channels (like the monolith) and just use the internal amps for your atmos speakers. Works great for that.
The Denon AVR would output 4 of it's 7 channels to the pre/pro for the Atmos channels. The 7 channel Monolith would supply the other 7 of 11 channels. Both units would output to any of the three 11 channel pre/pro's listed. The Triads will need a lot of power for the 4800 cu ft room. This proposed setup would comfortably fit the bill at a reasonable price.
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post #18 of 53 Old 05-21-2019, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigma722 View Post
What size screen are you thinking?

Also do you have a plan for treatments?
Was thinking about a 130" diagonal 16:9, but somebody said black bars on top & bottom depend on black levels whereas side black bars are blanked out, making side bars less noticeable than top/bottom bars. If true, guess I'd go widescreen. I have reasonably unlimited height & width, so real estate is not a factor. I'd like to use all that real estate, but field of vision is a concern. Viewing distance about 11-12 ft.

I do plan to look at treatments after I get everything else going.

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post #19 of 53 Old 05-22-2019, 03:53 AM
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Lovely looking room. Have you got any close ups of the soffits. Either build construction or the finish.
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post #20 of 53 Old 05-22-2019, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIC2 View Post
Was thinking about a 130" diagonal 16:9, but somebody said black bars on top & bottom depend on black levels whereas side black bars are blanked out, making side bars less noticeable than top/bottom bars. If true, guess I'd go widescreen. I have reasonably unlimited height & width, so real estate is not a factor. I'd like to use all that real estate, but field of vision is a concern. Viewing distance about 11-12 ft.

I do plan to look at treatments after I get everything else going.
I believe in a lot of projectors lately they have the option to block out the top and bottom bars now as well. But in either case, it's possible for the light to kind of "bleed" and be a bit distracting. Ideally with an acoustically transparent screen you buy/make some acoustically transparent masking panels. Those are generally easier to install on a 2.35:1 screen, since they are shorter and vertical.

I think you'd likely want to go with a 2.35:1 screen. You can get the exact same amount of 16:9 space, but then have an even larger picture for 2.35 movies. You'd be looking at a 150"(width) 2.35 screen. In diagonals that is 163", but I feel like a lot of people don't use diagonal distance when talking about 2.35 screens (imo we should stop on 16:9 too).

There are a couple of people in KC that have 150" wide screens and I believe they both sit roughly 10' from the screen. That is... pretty epic, and could be a bit much for some people, but I think with an extra foot or two back it wouldn't be too crazy. I'm shooting for 145" wide screen and will sit 10' from that.

Behind your front wall, how much space is between that wall and the foundation? Just curious how much space you are looking at when you eventually get upgradeitus
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post #21 of 53 Old 05-22-2019, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
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The Denon AVR would output 4 of it's 7 channels to the pre/pro for the Atmos channels. The 7 channel Monolith would supply the other 7 of 11 channels. Both units would output to any of the three 11 channel pre/pro's listed. The Triads will need a lot of power for the 4800 cu ft room. This proposed setup would comfortably fit the bill at a reasonable price.
The Denon AVR cannot be used in this capacity. That receiver does not support atmos so it cannot be used to decode the audio signal and must be further down the signal chain. The atmos stream must go the Marantz pre/pro first to be decoded and seperated by channel. The Marantz outputs must then go to the amplification. So in this case, the outputs for the four atmos channels from the Marantz would need to be connected to the Denon AVR somehow and it does not support this.
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post #22 of 53 Old 05-22-2019, 06:27 AM
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The Denon AVR would output 4 of it's 7 channels to the pre/pro for the Atmos channels. The 7 channel Monolith would supply the other 7 of 11 channels. Both units would output to any of the three 11 channel pre/pro's listed. The Triads will need a lot of power for the 4800 cu ft room. This proposed setup would comfortably fit the bill at a reasonable price.
Re: The Denon, what jedi is saying is that the denon AVR doesn't have inputs, so you aren't going to be able to do what you are saying.

For the denon to output atmos to another system, it would need to be able to process atmos, which it can't. So it can't be in the system before the pre/pro. The pre/pro is going to be the first stage in the system as it handles processing, and then spits the rest out to amps.

So conceptually, if your Denon was able to take analog inputs, you could look at outputting the atmos from your pre/pro into it, and use it for amplification, but since it doesn't have analog input, that won't be possible.

edit: oh damn, apparently i needed to refresh before this comment, ha.

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The Denon 3802 does have EXT-In and so will be fine as a dumb amp. It doesn’t have to know the codec. It just will blindly process the analog in it receives.

Marantz height RCA out to Denon RCA ext-in

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post #24 of 53 Old 05-22-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
The Denon 3802 does have EXT-In and so will be fine as a dumb amp. It doesn’t have to know the codec. It just will blindly process the analog in it receives.

Marantz height RCA out to Denon RCA ext-in

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Was just going to come back and say this as well. Minutes late again!!

Edit: but yeah, the pre/pro still comes first...
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post #25 of 53 Old 05-22-2019, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
The Denon 3802 does have EXT-In and so will be fine as a dumb amp. It doesn’t have to know the codec. It just will blindly process the analog in it receives.

Marantz height RCA out to Denon RCA ext-in

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Originally Posted by sigma722 View Post
Was just going to come back and say this as well. Minutes late again!!

Edit: but yeah, the pre/pro still comes first...
Yes, this is what I was talking about, but got a bit confused. So, any reason not to use the Denon for the Atmos channels? Thanks.
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post #26 of 53 Old 05-22-2019, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
The Denon 3802 does have EXT-In and so will be fine as a dumb amp. It doesn’t have to know the codec. It just will blindly process the analog in it receives.

Marantz height RCA out to Denon RCA ext-in

Pic
https://edsgoodstuff.com/edscart/bmz...ge.500x375.jpg
Somehow I missed that in the picture I looked at. Either that or the picture I looked at wasn't described correctly. My apologies. With that capability it will work as you hoped. Sorry for the confusion.
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post #27 of 53 Old 05-22-2019, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Lovely looking room. Have you got any close ups of the soffits. Either build construction or the finish.
I checked, they are 30" soffits. Good size.







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post #28 of 53 Old 05-22-2019, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Behind your front wall, how much space is between that wall and the foundation? Just curious how much space you are looking at when you eventually get upgradeitus
There's about 30" in the secret passageway.
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post #29 of 53 Old 05-22-2019, 07:51 AM
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I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say I wished I went with a smaller screen...

Consider putting your Left/Right behind the screen for cinema use. It lines up nicely with the on screen action/dialogue to have the sound source from inside the screen

My vote is bigger screen than pictured. If you don’t want taller, then 2.35.1 covers the wider recommendation and puts your Left and Right speaker behind the AT screen.
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(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
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post #30 of 53 Old 05-22-2019, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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So, the back door was defective and replaced, but they still have to paint it Navy again. The main entrance double doors leak a little light. Any recommended solutions? Guessing weatherstripping.

Couldn't build the media case any higher because of rear speaker. Have about 1,000 movies now (about 25 UHD) and room for a few more. The top two rows are music CDs.

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