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post #1 of 82 Old 05-07-2019, 04:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool The ssdesigner theater 2.0

Well I'm finally in a place where I can begin planning to build my next dedicated HT. I have a 12' x 18' space with 7.5' ceilings to work with. I have a number of questions right off the get go, so let's begin!

Here is an overhead look at how I see the room laying out:



Here is a list of gear that I have and gear that I'm considering:

NEW - Projector: Sony VPL-HW45ES

Reciever
Currently using: 5.1-channel home theater receiver/amplifier with 375 watts of total power (5 x 75W)
Considering: Denon AVR-E400 - 90 Watt - 8 Ohm - 20 - 20000 Hz - THD 0.08% - 7 channels (surround)
125 Watt - 6 Ohm - at 1 kHz - THD 0.7% - 7 channels (surround)

L/R Front speakers:
Currently using: Klipsch Synergy F-10 - 8 ohms compatible 100W RMS / 400W Peak
Considering: Klipsch RP-280F - 8 ohms compatible power handling: up to 150 watts RMS (600 watts peak)

L/R Surround speakers:
NEW: Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-502S

NEW: Amplifier: Outlaw: The Model 7000x

NEW: 110" screen



My first question is, am I going to be overpowering this space by going with a bigger receiver, amp and speakers? I have always had lower end Klipsch so I don't know what to expect with the Reference line vs. the cheaper Synergy line.

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post #2 of 82 Old 05-07-2019, 05:23 AM
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You won't be overpowering the room, that's probably a pretty good match for the space.

Quality is better than quantity when it comes to speakers. You'll also keep speakers far longer than your receiver so in this respect there a better value, while receivers are basically disposable. So plow budget into speakers. The 280F has a 98dB sensitivity versus 93.5dB on the F10. This is not a subtle difference. Generating the same amount of sound from the less efficient F10 will take a lot less power. Playing with a calculator you can get 100 dB of output with 10 watts of power using a pair of F10s versus only 3 watts of power with the 280Fs.

You can probably see where I'm going with this, but I'm going to advocate ditching the external amp to allocate there money towards the better speakers and just running them on receiver power. External amplification is overkill here and not your best use of budget. You really don't need that much power to drive the mains, especially if you're not going to be running the bass frequencies to them.

This leads me to the next piece of advice which is that people get hung up on their mains being able to produce bass, and then they turn and and buy a big sub, cross to the sub at 80 hz and then never utilize the bass capabilities of the mains. This is almost always the case for home theater use. The two channel music folks would argue otherwise, but you're not building a dedicated two channel music setup.

Barring a severe misallocation of speaker budget there's pretty much no chance in hell that mains will do a better job of producing the bass frequencies. The caliber of mains and external amplification you'd need to keep up with low frequency response of the very cheapest of the SVS or Hsu lineup is a quantity of dollars that will easily outstrip your entire budget. Yes you can route bass to both the mains and the sub but scary monsters lie down that path and tweaking the system out like that takes honest to goodness pros with lots of experience a good long time. Or you can just plug in the optimization mic, let it do the woop woop thing, and have a solid setup in like 3 minutes.

So here goes, pick high efficiency (>95 dB) bookshelf speakers that have a flat response down to 80 hz, pair them with a beefy sub and be done with it. When you find the right speakers ideally get three of them and have perfectly identical tonality across left center right. Ideally the center should be identical to left and right if your setup can physically accommodate it.

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post #3 of 82 Old 05-07-2019, 12:01 PM
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Agree with @thegeek about the amp. With high efficiency speakers like the ones you're considering, there really is not much need for an additional amplifier, and the funds would be much better put to use on a sub or two (such as the Monolith THX subs, SVS, Rhythmik, PSA, etc.). I prefer towers up front, but you could certainly do book shelf speakers instead as long as you cross them over at 80Hz and have good subs to handle the LFE and anything below 80Hz.


Also, you may want to consider the refurbished Epson 5040ub projector. It's out of stock right now, but you can go to this site to get alerted when it comes back in stock:


https://distill.io/



https://epson.com/Clearance-Center/H...a300c40a240610

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post #4 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 03:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
Agree with @thegeek about the amp. With high efficiency speakers like the ones you're considering, there really is not much need for an additional amplifier, and the funds would be much better put to use on a sub or two (such as the Monolith THX subs, SVS, Rhythmik, PSA, etc.). I prefer towers up front, but you could certainly do book shelf speakers instead as long as you cross them over at 80Hz and have good subs to handle the LFE and anything below 80Hz.


Also, you may want to consider the refurbished Epson 5040ub projector. It's out of stock right now, but you can go to this site to get alerted when it comes back in stock:


https://distill.io/



https://epson.com/Clearance-Center/H...a300c40a240610

The 5040 would be an awesome projector, but I completely forgot one important detail on this 12' x 18' room until yesterday. There's a steel support beam running across the back end of the room and I'll need to create a soffit to dip down to 60" for the back 5-6 feet of the room. So what I may end up doing is mount the projector:

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post #5 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 04:10 AM
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Reality check here, but you will need to flip the room end for end, to be able to get enough riser elevation, for the second row heads, to be able to see
over front row seated heads. And 18' of room depth, isn't likely to work with reclining seats either.

There might be real jewel of a small room there, but the smaller spaces are the toughest rooms to do well.

I'd be leery of using the bass capabilities of tower speakers, in smaller spaces. But it is always easy to change, if your receiver has multiples crossover points.

That beam might just be a design detail, and maybe you don't drop the entire ceiling?

Do you really need that second row of seats? Could you get by with one row? There might be some different looks to such a room, such as one row of four commercial theater style rocker seats, and
5.1.4 audio. Are those "NEW" items already bought?
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post #6 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 04:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Reality check here, but you will need to flip the room end for end, to be able to get enough riser elevation, for the second row heads, to be able to see
over front row seated heads. And 18' of room depth, isn't likely to work with reclining seats either.

There might be real jewel of a small room there, but the smaller spaces are the toughest rooms to do well.

I'd be leery of using the bass capabilities of tower speakers, in smaller spaces. But it is always easy to change, if your receiver has multiples crossover points.

That beam might just be a design detail, and maybe you don't drop the entire ceiling?

Do you really need that second row of seats? Could you get by with one row? There might be some different looks to such a room, such as one row of four commercial theater style rocker seats, and
5.1.4 audio. Are those "NEW" items already bought?
The receiver should have enough flexibility for crossovers so I think I'll be able to really fine tune it.

According to the riser calculator my riser would be about 24" in height. My thought was to not make the riser much bigger than the couch, so you basically just step up to sit down. Thoughts on that?
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post #7 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is the entire basement layout. The steel beam runs all along the back wall of the theater. I drew this grey box just to see how the theater would scale if I flipped it 90 degrees. This would eliminate any low ceilings giving me a solid 7'-6" floor to ceiling inside the room.

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post #8 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 05:08 AM
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A 24' high riser is pretty high with but 7.5" feet.

The grey box is the 7'5" height, and I gather it's a beam AND HVAC runs that drop the ceiling in the upper area of the theater, correct?
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post #9 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 05:19 AM
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Yes to the foot rest area and the step up and sit down motion riser. It works well. I've done that in the past here, with a 7'1" ceiling (and five soffits at 80").

But I have also gone in an entirely different direction now, half the seats in but one row, with a bigger AT screen, masking, and a physically big (and insanely dynamic sound system).
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post #10 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
A 24' high riser is pretty high with but 7.5" feet.

The grey box is the 7'5" height, and I gather it's a beam AND HVAC runs that drop the ceiling in the upper area of the theater, correct?
Correct. The HVAC runs at the same height along the beam. So no getting around dropping the back to 80" for the last 5 feet of the room.
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post #11 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure if 10" down from the ceiling is a good enough distance to the top of my projected image (I'll be able to black out the ceiling and plan to) but here is what that might look like:


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post #12 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 06:41 AM
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How important is the extra seats?

Just asking because this could be a room with a substantially different want list, and superior performance.....

That could be a 9-10' wide 2.35 screen, and have manual fold in and out masking panels for 16x9 if your pj's zoom function covers that.

And it could be 5.1.4 with in-wall surround speakers, and for ATMOs, in backer boxes. You could also eliminate the one door, and aim for a low noise floor.
The av rack could be moved outside the room and that wall could also be a home theater feature wall, with some interesting finish, and an embedded
digital movie poster light box. One could go 4 seats wide, with narrow seat options. With an AT screen, you could host simple front corner bass traps, and
the room would feel more spacious.
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post #13 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
How important is the extra seats?

Just asking because this could be a room with a substantially different want list, and superior performance.....

That could be a 9-10' wide 2.35 screen, and have manual fold in and out masking panels for 16x9 if your pj's zoom function covers that.

And it could be 5.1.4 with in-wall surround speakers, and for ATMOs, in backer boxes. You could also eliminate the one door, and aim for a low noise floor.
The av rack could be moved outside the room and that wall could also be a home theater feature wall, with some interesting finish, and an embedded
digital movie poster light box. One could go 4 seats wide, with narrow seat options. With an AT screen, you could host simple front corner bass traps, and
the room would feel more spacious.
The extra seats are a must-have. We definitely need to be able to host a few couples at a time so 6-8 person seating is a need.

You mentioned 5.1.4 surround, is this room just too small for 7.1?
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post #14 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 04:12 PM
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5.1.4 was to keep speakers as far off the seating as possible and with a single row, that was a design possibility if those extra seats were very occasional use.

12' wide should be fine for three narrow seats or a couch, and still be able to center seating in the width. The length at 18' is way too tight for recliners, IMO. So I have to
wonder about the couches, and how they recline?
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post #15 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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5.1.4 was to keep speakers as far off the seating as possible and with a single row, that was a design possibility if those extra seats were very occasional use.

12' wide should be fine for three narrow seats or a couch, and still be able to center seating in the width. The length at 18' is way too tight for recliners, IMO. So I have to
wonder about the couches, and how they recline?
The recliners are two of these:

https://www.roomsforlessoh.com/item/...ofa/1570282802

90% of the time it will just be the wife and I watching Netflix, so we will likely sit in the back row. Front row is about 10' from the screen so back row is 14-15'.
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post #16 of 82 Old 05-08-2019, 06:32 PM
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You have the seats or at least access to them, so measure them and draw a side room view to scale. And remember to put a head in the seats, so you can nail the sightlines. Then check out the projector's
manual for throw distance and mounting height, and add that to the side view diagram.

If 90% of the time it's two of you, why design the room around 10% of the usage? That's why I always ask about seat count, and if there is flex there. I myself would simply bring in two chairs for company,
and let guests have the good seats when company is over. You are thinking what fits spatially, while I am looking at chasing great audio and potential features I could have, versus the extra $1.1k in seating.
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post #17 of 82 Old 05-09-2019, 03:59 AM - Thread Starter
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This is what the calculator came up with. Not seeing a mounting height though. Is there a tool to determine this as well?


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post #18 of 82 Old 05-09-2019, 04:04 AM
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Most projectors when ceiling mounted will get aligned without the top edge of the screen and positioned upside down. Some have and offset (rare) and many have image shift.

Check your manual.

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post #19 of 82 Old 05-09-2019, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Most projectors when ceiling mounted will get aligned without the top edge of the screen and positioned upside down. Some have and offset (rare) and many have image shift.

Check your manual.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

The vertical lens shift is +/- 71% so can't I just tilt it to achieve the proper alignment?


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post #20 of 82 Old 05-09-2019, 05:33 AM
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Putting it at an angle like they will cause a keystone distortion. I can't think of any PJs that do this optically. Vertical lens shift is the feature you want of the projector is going to be mounted above the top edge of the screen.

Again, check your manual. It will have diagrams showing placement capabilities.

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post #21 of 82 Old 05-10-2019, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
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The vertical lens shift is +/- 71% so can't I just tilt it to achieve the proper alignment?

Keystone corrections would correct the image using algorithms to compensate for the angled projector (pointed down= top of image small, bottom of image large). It does compress some of the image with the algorithms but it can be done.

YOU don't need that. What they are saying above is that you need a PJ that does vertical lens shift (as you said +/- 71%), so you don't need to angle your PJ at all. You just need to make sure that the vertical amount you are mounting it above your screen is not to high above your screen (21% of your screen height). If it doesn't make sense; here is how I figured it out:

Vertical lens shift discusses the ability to position the projector above or below the screen centerline, and is defined as a percentage of screen height. 50% lens shift is 1/2 screen height. +/- 50% means you can mount the PJ on the top or bottom of the screen. (you have 21% distance of your screen height to go above or below your screen; according to your manual). Is 21% of your screen height equal too or less than 10". If so go for it.

Happy designing,

Aaron

All ya need is love, and Hi Fi sound.
Asthetix, Audreal, Arcam FMJ, Musical Fidelity, Harmonix, Marantz, Tannoy, MIT, PS3, Panasonic, OPPO

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post #22 of 82 Old 05-21-2019, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I'm a little dissapointed over my latest findings. I'm in demo mode now and tearing the wood paneling off the walls has revealed a support post at the 11 foot mark width wise.

This is to scale showing the couch and love seat that my wife and I really want to use. Can someone tell me that I'm not insane building a theater with 2 feet of walk space on either side of my front row of seating?

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post #23 of 82 Old 05-21-2019, 11:25 AM
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Nothing wrong with a stripper pole in the middle of your theater. Nothing stands in the way of a man and his dream theater, more pictures in my Lemonade project thread. We had a pole, a sump pump and some huge duct work to deal with.
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post #24 of 82 Old 05-21-2019, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the pics, DC.

I’m not sure about people squirreling around a dark pole in a dark room. Seems it may be easier for people to squeak by a 24” walk path vs. shimmy around a metal post. My .02.
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a wider room is a better sounding room due to the proximity to side surround speakers. The back is also just for overflow seating.
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post #26 of 82 Old 05-21-2019, 08:56 PM
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Flip the room and frame the post into a column. That would give you 4-6" of additional room width. Do a matching symmetrical column.

The door could swing outwards, or you could do a KQ two seat front row and overflow seating.

Or embrace the post, as Big suggests.
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post #27 of 82 Old 05-22-2019, 05:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Flip the room and frame the post into a column. That would give you 4-6" of additional room width. Do a matching symmetrical column.

The door could swing outwards, or you could do a KQ two seat front row and overflow seating.

Or embrace the post, as Big suggests.
I did a quick layout using the flipped room scenario. In order to balance out the room I feel like I should have two columns in the front and two in the back. Only one would really be needed to hide the pole, but I'm weird and I assume we all can relate. So flipping the room and having the four columns still means I only have about 24" between the couch and the back columns.
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post #28 of 82 Old 05-22-2019, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssdesigner View Post


I did a quick layout using the flipped room scenario. In order to balance out the room I feel like I should have two columns in the front and two in the back. Only one would really be needed to hide the pole, but I'm weird and I assume we all can relate. So flipping the room and having the four columns still means I only have about 24" between the couch and the back columns.
I personally wouldn't worry about front to back "balance" in this case. Side to side is important, but honestly, don't think you will think twice once it's all in place with just front columns (one to hide pole, one aesthetic).

Edit: I also think it's worth re-considering big's idea with having the pole in the room. It widens the room significantly, such that even if they don't want to shimmy past the pole on one side, it would add room on the other side to get up if they don't want to deal with that. It doesn't need to be widened just the 6-8" but you could add a couple feet onto the width of the room.

Also, could we get a few pics post demo?
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post #29 of 82 Old 05-22-2019, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a pic shot from the entrance of the room looking toward the current (11') projector screen wall:





This is the long wall along the foundation looking back toward an existing closet:





This is looking straight back from the projector screen wall toward the back. You can see the red metal post on the right:

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post #30 of 82 Old 05-22-2019, 05:02 PM
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You could frame the room wider, make it symmetrical, and simply embrace the post as a feature. Symmetrical soffits and a new fake post.
You would get the extended head room at the seating.

I often wonder about a single row of four commercial style rocker theater seats? That wouldn't be much wider then those loveseats, but that would be a nice mix
of room flip, a SOWK type front layout, and the extended head room over the seating and a 5.1.4 ATMOS speakers layout. Might be an interesting mix for an improved
audio layout.

SOWK's room is definitely wider, and you needn't give your post the mass that SOWK went with. The JBL demo room is one room I like. Doesn't exactly look like a cutting
edge room, but it is. The loveseats could simply go outside the theater, and be put to use there.



That's a steel beam that could be beefed up and a new support pad and post put in but that would be an expensive option. Might be the best money spent in the room though.

The third option is Big's suggestion, that also is also an embrace the post option.
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