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post #1 of 76 Old 05-17-2019, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Help please...trying to keep it simple

Folks - see attached pictures of my room layout. I am finishing my basement. It will be a complete demo followed by a rebuild. If you look at the second screen you will find an abutment from the wall where the door is. The empty wall gap you see will be closed. I have purchased the JBL590 speakers for front, left and center. I would like to hide the speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen. Ideally I want the abutment to go away so that it is one straight line from end to end but I do not know yet if that is feasible because the area inside the closet has studs that act as supporting or load bearing studs for the main house.

I am exploring if there is a simple option to buy a silver ticket screen and then have some kind of acoustic materials around it so that speakers can be set behind. I am thinking that if they remove the door that is there and move it to the other side and leave that area empty, the left speaker could go there and the center and right can go in the space that you see. My questions are:

1. Is there a simple way where a silver ticket screen can be used with acoustic materials around which don't require complex framing? Most examples I see have some complicated framing.

2. How would I gain access to speakers?

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post #2 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 03:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Folks - I would really appreciate some help.

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post #3 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 05:12 AM
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You can do velvet around simple rectangular wooden frames, one frame each for the top, bottom, left, and right. Or just top and bottom and velvet curtains to the left and right.
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post #4 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 06:50 AM
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Gee....what a great idea!



You should consider it, @genaccmiller

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post #5 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 08:26 AM
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You might want to do a forum search on "BigmouthinDC two goal post".

So where exactly is that wall shown? I assume that door is beneath the top landing of the stairs. Is that correct?

What exactly is that bench and what is it hiding?
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post #6 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
You might want to do a forum search on "BigmouthinDC two goal post".



So where exactly is that wall shown? I assume that door is beneath the top landing of the stairs. Is that correct?



What exactly is that bench and what is it hiding?
Yes I am reading the goal post design that bignouthindc has to see if it may apply to my situation. The door is under the stair landing. The open space on the other end will be closed out. The box at the corner is where a sump pump could go.

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post #7 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 09:13 AM
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I am not sure if that corner of the door is structural support, but you could hide it with Big's 2 goalpost method.

If that corner is not structural support, you could reframe that corner and hide the slope of the stairs above, in the AT space.

Such a space won't be multi-row, but there might be serious potential for a substantial low seat count theater.

The combustion grills could be plated over, and moved to pull air form the recreation space.
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post #8 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 09:21 AM
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Here's one variant of Big's 2 goal post method.

Upsides:

Potentially hiding a support post.

Inexpensive to DIY.

You can hide substantial speakers, or cheap used speakers that are functional, but a little less then mint looking speakers. Also a nice upside to kit speakers with the simplest to do, flat black finish.
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post #9 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 09:38 AM
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Could go, but isn't needed?

So I basically have the layout right, which gives you a lot of options if the room is one row.

If the post isn't structural, an AT screen on the left wall could hide the sump pump, and the entry door could be in the bottom corner near the end of the stairs.
The stair slope could be hidden or semi hidden, by a soffit at the back of the room, with that room orientation.

I actually see all kind of options for this space, with much depending on where the lolly support posts are for the basement.
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post #10 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually we can't do any of these options. The hole is already dug in where you see the sump pump and it leads outside. There is no option to move that out. The screen will have to be on the stair side I have shown. Just need to see if the door can be moved back and whether it will impact support structure. I explored all layout options in previous threads as well. Just trying to understand if the minimalist goal post design will work for me.

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post #11 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 10:12 AM
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Assuming there's no support post in the theater's uppermost wall, maybe grab a bit more width?

The entry is tied to the bottom of the stairs and could be a bit of a Wow feature wall with embedded cheap hdtv tv rotated to display movie posters.
Being a DIY'er here, I am not thinking of spending a lot of money there. but the idea is to add some wow features to a smallish home theater, and do so in
a manner that doesn't impact on a performance driven room.


Fabric framed walls could be a cheap finish solution, and host a path to the AT space, from the av rack. and allow for some DIY acoustical treatments. Another theme
here, is to use in wall speakers for surrounds, to visually eliminate a lot of av clutter, between that, and the use of an AT screen.
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post #12 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 10:26 AM
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Until some drywall is pulled, you can't see what exactly the support structure is in the space, so you will be limited to everything offered, being potential options/solutions. But I do
believe that might very well be at least a decent option, at the very least.

The sump pump really isn't a huge issue if it is truly framed out as a bench. Many builder hidden objects are often framed simplistically with zero thought to
having less intrusion in a space also, so there might be room to further minimize the impact of this, on the room, such as the room flip above.

I don't recall seeing any of your threads before...
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post #13 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Until some drywall is pulled, you can't see what exactly the support structure is in the space, so you will be limited to everything offered, being potential options/solutions. But I do

believe that might very well be at least a decent option, at the very least.



The sump pump really isn't a huge issue if it is truly framed out as a bench. Many builder hidden objects are often framed simplistically with zero thought to

having less intrusion in a space also, so there might be room to further minimize the impact of this, on the room, such as the room flip above.



I don't recall seeing any of your threads before...
Hello - the threads were in a different subforum. I am reading through the minimalist stuff to see if it applies to me.

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post #14 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 12:13 PM
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I would definitely add a few more detailed pictures of the room besides the one angle and descriptions of what we are seeing. It will help us visualize the space you are dealing with. Thanks!

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post #15 of 76 Old 05-18-2019, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello - thanks. I received a lot of detailed information on the projector thread earlier. I believe that was a Mercedes Benz class construction technique which would really raise up the levels and bring my room to a true theater experience. Since budget is a bit of constraint I am wondering if a Kia or Hyundai version may fit my room. I was looking through a minimalist thread and there is a goal post idea there. I am not sure how much that will apply to me.

In the below pictures, the opening in the fourth wall will be closed off. The fifth picture shows the other side of the wall with an abutment for the door. Everything is going to be coming down and rebuilt as part of the basement construction. The door leads into a closet which supports the landing upstairs. I am going to ask the construction crew if it would be possible to not have that abuttment but I am doubtful. if that can't be done I am just going to ask them if the door can be taken out and put on the other side of the stair and this space left empty. In which case I will put my left speaker here and the center, sub and right speaker on the other side where a nice little section exists. I want to construct a screen in front of this. I have also attached the room plans here.
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post #16 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 04:13 AM
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That's actually pretty ideal, for a KIA budget and a Mercedes C class result.

Can you see yourself cover the window, and seeing what's in that closet corner, and if there is a support post or anything supporting the corner of the stairs there?

I see the sump pump being accessible, with a SOWK type low stage, with a removeable section of stage over the sump pump area. The window could be covered over to
not admit light, and a shallow acoustically transparent screen be used.

Those soffits could be extended down the sides of the room. I would frame the sides of the walls, and make large speaker grill fabric covered panels. That would allow me
to use some flex armoured electrical cable to bring the sconces to further from the screen. Any slope of the stairs, could be partially hidden by the soffits being extended, and
taken around along the back of the room.

The opening to the recreation room would be framed in to create a side symmetrical wall.

None of that is remotely expensive to do, if you DIY. It all keeps coming back to what's in that corner of the closet but the layout I presented in post 11.
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post #17 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 04:33 AM
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Here's SOWK's stage. Now think about that sump pump area having a section of flip up, or a section of the top being able to slide out.

Fabric framed side walls could hide less then perfect drywall work, and accommodate moving the front pair of sconces back of the 2nd set.
Other advantages of framing in some fabric walls, would be the av rack location and ease of running some conduit to the front AT space, and also
that new soffit construction on the back wall means a short conduit run to a projector. The AT screen wall while reducing visual room volume, helps
hide the sump pump and removes speaker visual clutter and calms the space.

A good looking example of such a room would be the second pic, although I would be thinking a 16x9 AT screen myself.
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post #18 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 06:13 AM
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Is that sump pump area even being used? Does it have a pump in there at all?

I see a fair amount of discrepancies between the photos and the floor plan. Would you be open to fleshing out a bunch of dimensions?

And you own gear yet?
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post #19 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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What discrepancies are you seeing? I don't see any. As I said I am not putting the screen on the sump pump side regardless of whether there is a pump in it or not. The hanging soffits from the ceiling do not make it an ideal location. The location will be on the other side.

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post #20 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 08:38 AM
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It's your room and you can do what you want, but there's three potential screen wall options. Each has some minor compromises, and there might be a clear
winner, depending on gear you already own, or what you can do yourself, or the need to rely on paid trades. Or even things outside the theater. A personal example being I
like the theater tied to the end of the stairs, with a bathroom nearby. (Basically traffic flow.) I also like the door in the rear wall, in the corner. Kind of comes with a bit more
entry drama, as you see the big screen and the rooms sight lines are maximised. I also get uninterrupted side wall, for acoustical treatments, which is really about making life
easier.

I see combustion grills on the floor plan that you provided, that aren't there in the pictures. The space between the end of the stairs and the floor plan seem to be out
of scale. And I don't see any height measurements which to someone with a HAA Level 1, is very useful to have from an acoustical and design angle. I also don't see any
piping for the sump pump, so that's either something you will need to accommodate, or else it's built into the wall already. So just how did they accommodate service and
maybe needing to remove the sump pump at a future date? I expect there's no sump pump there, but just making sure, since that will impact upon the room, noise-wise, so it
should be something to talk about.

I bet those soffits are far bigger then they need to be, and could be shrunk. Or simply left alone. They really don't count for that much, whether they are hidden behind an AT screen or
not. (not sure where you are getting that from.). I'd actually expand on them to be symmetrical and carry around the room. Use them to help hide the stair case angle, or the AT
space on that wall, for that matter.

It also doesn't cost you anything to explore other options. You asked for advice and you got a ton of really good advice, some of which merely questions if that wall is the best overall choice.
That information might not be for you, but others will read this thread, have similar spaces, and might be more open to asking why certain choices might work out better, in the long run.
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post #21 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
It's your room and you can do what you want, but there's three potential screen wall options. Each has some minor compromises, and there might be a clear
winner, depending on gear you already own, or what you can do yourself, or the need to rely on paid trades. Or even things outside the theater. A personal example being I
like the theater tied to the end of the stairs, with a bathroom nearby. (Basically traffic flow.) I also like the door in the rear wall, in the corner. Kind of comes with a bit more
entry drama, as you see the big screen and the rooms sight lines are maximised. I also get uninterrupted side wall, for acoustical treatments, which is really about making life
easier.

I see combustion grills on the floor plan that you provided, that aren't there in the pictures. The space between the end of the stairs and the floor plan seem to be out
of scale. And I don't see any height measurements which to someone with a HAA Level 1, is very useful to have from an acoustical and design angle. I also don't see any
piping for the sump pump, so that's either something you will need to accommodate, or else it's built into the wall already. So just how did they accommodate service and
maybe needing to remove the sump pump at a future date? I expect there's no sump pump there, but just making sure, since that will impact upon the room, noise-wise, so it
should be something to talk about.

I bet those soffits are far bigger then they need to be, and could be shrunk. Or simply left alone. They really don't count for that much, whether they are hidden behind an AT screen or
not. (not sure where you are getting that from.). I'd actually expand on them to be symmetrical and carry around the room. Use them to help hide the stair case angle, or the AT
space on that wall, for that matter.

It also doesn't cost you anything to explore other options. You asked for advice and you got a ton of really good advice, some of which merely questions if that wall is the best overall choice.
That information might not be for you, but others will read this thread, have similar spaces, and might be more open to asking why certain choices might work out better, in the long run.

The OP has three JBL 590's for the front screen wall speakers.

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post #22 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 08:55 AM
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That pic above is an old snap of my front AT space. That's five soffits at 80" of height, and the AT wall is 2.5" inches behind the leading edge of that straight soffit. There's a 54x96" AT
screen and horizontal masking system in that 9' 5" of room width. It is small and the speaker spread is far from remotely ideal, and I actually wasted a bit of room depth with a 59" deep
AT space, but length was the one luxury I have with that room.

So I have soffits galore, and while I would prefer none, except for the screen wall soffit, they really don't impact that much, despite there being four soffits behind the screen wall.
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post #23 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
The OP has three JBL 590's for the front screen wall speakers.
More info and I like the choice, although I have occasionally caught some rather big horns beaming once in a while, in a smaller room. Not so different from my JTR T8, which also are
total overkill for a small room. But rather fun tactile-wise.

So how far off a wall do they need to be mounted? I see dual rear ports but I also see they stick them rather close to a wall, in the manual. Ideally one should want the speakers to be 6" off the
backside of any woven AT screen material, to avoid timbre shifting. Lots of information to work with there, to come up with an ideal, but minimal AT space depth, to reflect the depth of the room.
And with a 60 degree speaker spread, that helps to establish screen width when combined with room depth and looking at room depth for ears, to that have smoother audio response.

I'm not exactly sure how those rear ports will mesh with front wall treatments, that will be needed to suck up the energy coming off the backside of the AT screen. But you will want to absorb that, so
that might mean a bit more AT space depth potentially there, then the common 2". I also am not familiar with the 590's so how do the port plugs work, and are they a tool to be used? I expect you
reduce their bass depth, or output, but that might still be a good option with flexible crossovers in the avr and depending on the sub.

Quite a bit of information right there, from one piece of unknown gear. That's a pretty good example of why take the time to ask about something, because the room depth coupled with a properly designed depth
of AT space, could rule out the choice of an AT screen in such a depth.
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post #24 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 09:56 AM
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The Lemonaid build has an exposed support post near the back, by the side wall.

An option might be to see what's exactly in that closet corner, by removing the trim inside and some interior drywall. And either hide that by an AT screen, or simply stick the acoustical issue back of the seating,
by not going with an AT screen, but hiding the sump pump option. (You could kit it out with an alarm at the very least.) Which leads me back to asking whether it's three 590 two plus horizontal center channel?

If you can get by with an AT depth of 2', then just how good is the family's eyesight? That leaves 2-2.5' behind ones ears, as separation space between ears and in wall rear surrounds, so a cheaper woven AT screen
might get ruled out.

That 14' 10.5" width coupled with the 15' 1/2" depth is another issue where the room might be far better off at 12' 10.25" by 15' 1/2" symmetrical.
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post #25 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
More info and I like the choice, although I have occasionally caught some rather big horns beaming once in a while, in a smaller room. Not so different from my JTR T8, which also are
total overkill for a small room. But rather fun tactile-wise.

So how far off a wall do they need to be mounted? I see dual rear ports but I also see they stick them rather close to a wall, in the manual. Ideally one should want the speakers to be 6" off the
backside of any woven AT screen material, to avoid timbre shifting. Lots of information to work with there, to come up with an ideal, but minimal AT space depth, to reflect the depth of the room.
And with a 60 degree speaker spread, that helps to establish screen width when combined with room depth and looking at room depth for ears, to that have smoother audio response.

I'm not exactly sure how those rear ports will mesh with front wall treatments, that will be needed to suck up the energy coming off the backside of the AT screen. But you will want to absorb that, so
that might mean a bit more AT space depth potentially there, then the common 2". I also am not familiar with the 590's so how do the port plugs work, and are they a tool to be used? I expect you
reduce their bass depth, or output, but that might still be a good option with flexible crossovers in the avr and depending on the sub.

Quite a bit of information right there, from one piece of unknown gear. That's a pretty good example of why take the time to ask about something, because the room depth coupled with a properly designed depth
of AT space, could rule out the choice of an AT screen in such a depth.

Subwoofers would take care of any excess bass absorption. You can also plug the ports on the backside of the speaker if need be due to close wall proximity.

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post #26 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 11:20 AM
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It's the room depth, with an AT screen, that is the challenge. The reason for the front wall treatment is to absorb the energy that comes off of the backside of an AT screen. Don't capture and contain that, and you end up
with muddy audio. Two inches of treatment isn't going to make much of a difference for the bass. But a higher crossover might help with not needing more then 2" of treatments. You just aren't going to capture much of a
long bass wave with 2" of treatment. which with a wall reflection looks like 4".

Unless you stick the seating on top of the surround speakers, and the back wall, which one should try REALLY hard to avoid.

You also don't want your subs firing at the AT fabric, unless you want the screen to act like a filter.

If you treat and manage to absorb a lot of the bass, the room will be deader then dead, and audio will outright suck, as all the high frequencies will be sucked out of the room long before then bass starts to become an issue.
(I do prefer a room on the bit more lively side of things but most people (experts excepted), tend to over acoustically treat a room.) Now some of this is overly simplistic because you can target specific frequencies.
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post #27 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 11:29 AM
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It's the room depth, with an AT screen, that is the challenge. The reason for the front wall treatment is to absorb the energy that comes off of the backside of an AT screen. Don't capture and contain that, and you end up
with muddy audio. Two inches of treatment isn't going to make much of a difference for the bass. But a higher crossover might help with not needing more then 2" of treatments. You just aren't going to capture much of a
long bass wave with 2" of treatment. which with a wall reflection looks like 4".

Unless you stick the seating on top of the surround speakers, and the back wall, which one should try REALLY hard to avoid.

You also don't want your subs firing at the AT fabric, unless you want the screen to act like a filter.

If you treat and manage to absorb a lot of the bass, the room will be deader then dead, and audio will outright suck, as all the high frequencies will be sucked out of the room long before then bass starts to become an issue.
(I do prefer a room on the bit more lively side of things but most people (experts excepted), tend to over acoustically treat a room.) Now some of this is overly simplistic because you can target specific frequencies.

If you have the subwoofer driver firing through FR701 type material then you're fine.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #28 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 11:47 AM
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That fabric will eventually start acting like a filter. Dust is the reason. It won't impact on any bass output, in any sort of tiny percentile.

You also don't want a big sub firing onto the AT screen either, because you can ripple the screen.


Simple little best practises can really add up..... And when they are easy to avoid, simple knowledge based, out right free, or dirt cheap to implement,
why even go there?
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post #29 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 11:58 AM
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That fabric will eventually start acting like a filter. Dust is the reason. It won't impact on any bass output, in any sort of tiny percentile.

You also don't want a big sub firing onto the AT screen either, because you can ripple the screen.


Simple little best practises can really add up..... And when they are easy to avoid, simple knowledge based, out right free, or dirt cheap to implement,
why even go there?

Well, yeah, but so will the standard fabric grill attached to your subwoofer. That's why you want a small standoff of a few inches (as speaker grills usually are), so the driver isn't right up against the material.

Listen up, studios! Dolby Atmos Lite™ print-outs must stop!!
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post #30 of 76 Old 05-19-2019, 12:36 PM
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I don't run grills on speakers behind my AT screen. Why do you???

I also don't really care much about dust on the speaker. It won't stay put, it's more about not distributing the dust onto more fragile fabrics, and trying to minimise vacuuming.
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