The Belgian Build: Jay's Place - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 62 Old 08-31-2019, 10:13 AM
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All speakers are inferior to ones you build yourself. There is never any emotional bias introduced in that evaluation. I've been rolling my own since the 70s. If you are up to the challenge and can handle the shipping the DIY SG has a strong user following. Be aware that particular models go in and out of stock frequently. So if you like something and it is in stock order it then, don't assume you can wait a month.
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post #32 of 62 Old 08-31-2019, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I'm gonna read up on that tomorrow and maybe place an order, if I can get it shipped to Belgium for a decent cost... I've emailed them already to ask about it.

Why hasn't someone mentioned this to me before ?
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post #33 of 62 Old 08-31-2019, 04:12 PM
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I've got the HT-12's and I like them immensely. I haven't had any commercial speakers set-up for such a long time I cannot give any kind of valid comparison. All I can say is the HT-12's sound fantastic and can handle everything I've thrown at them to date. I can't imagine anything commercial can touch them until you start hitting at least 3 times the cost and even then...
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post #34 of 62 Old 08-31-2019, 04:20 PM
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Yeah I'm gonna read up on that tomorrow and maybe place an order, if I can get it shipped to Belgium for a decent cost... I've emailed them already to ask about it.

Just a heads up, that company runs on a shoe string, the products are high quality (I've built many, more for clients than I own) but the owner/CEO runs a Landscape business that consumes a fair amount of time, Emails may take some time to get an answer. It is not like he is in the office 9-5 M-F
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post #35 of 62 Old 08-31-2019, 05:55 PM
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Do you have a build thread ? I could probably learn a lot from your experiences...
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Or send me some pics on skype
Just finished up yesterday Still have some tweaking to do and clean-up with wires but just wanted to get it up and running for the Holiday weekend.


Last edited by Frohlich; 08-31-2019 at 06:01 PM.
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post #36 of 62 Old 08-31-2019, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Just a heads up, that company runs on a shoe string, the products are high quality (I've built many, more for clients than I own) but the owner/CEO runs a Landscape business that consumes a fair amount of time, Emails may take some time to get an answer. It is not like he is in the office 9-5 M-F
thanks for the heads-up.
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post #37 of 62 Old 08-31-2019, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Just finished up yesterday Still have some tweaking to do and clean-up with wires but just wanted to get it up and running for the Holiday weekend.
Wow, that looks really nice ! I think you have a lot more available space than me. What is the size of your screen, and what is the height of your left and right wall before the sloped ceiling starts ? What is the width of the room ?
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post #38 of 62 Old 09-01-2019, 02:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Seeing some of the HTM-12 build threads, I'm thinking of also placing all 3 LCR speakers behind the AT screen. So L and R also behind the actual screen and not behind AT sidepanels.

Would that have a negative effect on the sound stage ? Would it become too narrow, and would it sound like it's just 1 big center channel ? Really interested to hear your opinions.

In case I can pull that off, maybe I don't even need sidepanels and a top panel, as I can just have the AT screen far enough from the actual back wall to place my LCR's, and cover the actual back wall and part of the side walls in black velvet or black paint, since all the 3 speakers and sub will be behind the screen and therefore invisible. A bottom panel is still needed to cover the speaker stands, wires, etc.

Hmm, new insights and ideas coming along...
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post #39 of 62 Old 09-01-2019, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorisdriesen View Post
Seeing some of the HTM-12 build threads, I'm thinking of also placing all 3 LCR speakers behind the AT screen. So L and R also behind the actual screen and not behind AT sidepanels.

Would that have a negative effect on the sound stage ? Would it become too narrow, and would it sound like it's just 1 big center channel ? Really interested to hear your opinions.

In case I can pull that off, maybe I don't even need sidepanels and a top panel, as I can just have the AT screen far enough from the actual back wall to place my LCR's, and cover the actual back wall and part of the side walls in black velvet or black paint, since all the 3 speakers and sub will be behind the screen and therefore invisible. A bottom panel is still needed to cover the speaker stands, wires, etc.

Hmm, new insights and ideas coming along...
Have you checked out the UK based forum - AVForums, you may get more European biased info on here, this is still a great forum and resource though so please don't think that I'm in anyway putting a negative spin on this forum.

For speakers, DIY is a very good option if you have the time and skills to pull it off, but since you live in Belgium (I'm a Brit ex-pat working in Liege) I would wholly recommend Arendal 1723 speakers from Norway
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post #40 of 62 Old 09-01-2019, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
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These Arendal are like 3 to 5 times the cost of DIY speakers ?
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post #41 of 62 Old 09-01-2019, 04:35 AM
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Wow, that looks really nice ! I think you have a lot more available space than me. What is the size of your screen, and what is the height of your left and right wall before the sloped ceiling starts ? What is the width of the room ?
My room is 14 feet wide and 18 feet long. The door is at the back of the room. The slope of the ceiling starts at just over 4 feet (around 52 inches) and the top part of my ceiling is 72 inches that is horizontal (not slopped part) inches wide. Speakers are JBL M2 LCR and JBL SCS8 for surrounds and atmos (8 total). Screen is 130 inches diagonal.
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post #42 of 62 Old 09-03-2019, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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In case I can pull that off, maybe I don't even need sidepanels and a top panel, as I can just have the AT screen far enough from the actual back wall to place my LCR's, and cover the actual back wall and part of the side walls in black velvet or black paint, since all the 3 speakers and sub will be behind the screen and therefore invisible. A bottom panel is still needed to cover the speaker stands, wires, etc.
Any opinion on this ?
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post #43 of 62 Old 09-04-2019, 04:37 AM
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L/R speaker placement is based on achieving the desired spread. Atmos says 45-60 degrees from the the MLP, THX says 45. Based on your space run the numbers. If pulling the L/R inside the screen edges ends up less than 45, I wouldn't do it.
As for skipping the side panels it is all about the look you want for your theater space. Personally I like a clean look everything hidden like a commercial theater but I respect people who want to look at their investment.
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post #44 of 62 Old 09-04-2019, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Good point. Just checked the numbers: from a seating distance of 3m and less, I have an angle of 45°. Will have to experience if 3m (or less) is too close to comfortably watch a movie on an 128" scope screen.

I've seen people sit this close with 150" screens, so maybe it's OK.
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post #45 of 62 Old 09-04-2019, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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For 3m viewing distance and 50° it would look like this, so side panels are definitely needed.

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post #46 of 62 Old 09-05-2019, 10:20 AM
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I live in the UK and my HTM12's took about 2 weeks ish to arrive if I remember correctly, everything packaged very very well, all in all a breeze to ship if you go with the right company. Being in Europe you should have access to some pro audio brands to think about some DIY subs like me, maybe some B&C 21's, in the UK they are cheaper than the ultimax 18s and the value of going DIY for the speakers and subs, especially in Europe where not many options exist, can't be ignored!
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post #47 of 62 Old 09-05-2019, 10:24 AM
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This is what I came up with for my small room.
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post #48 of 62 Old 09-05-2019, 11:56 AM
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post #49 of 62 Old 09-05-2019, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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This is what I came up with for my small room.
That's a lot of noise for a small room !

Very clean, looks nice !
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post #50 of 62 Old 09-06-2019, 01:44 AM
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2. There will be 1x SVS PB-2000 sub behind the screen. Does it matter if the sub is faced towards MLP or if it's turned 90° and firing left or right ?

Word of advice....keep the sub on the floor, especially that sub which has a port. You're moving significant amounts of air and this will cause the screen to move with the air pressure when the sub is active. Plus you'll get the boundary gain benefit from the floor vs. in free space behind the screen.

Oh...and you need at least one more sub...or maybe another 7! ;-)
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post #51 of 62 Old 09-06-2019, 02:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I'm already hooked now on the DIY route, so if you check out my last drawing, you'll see I'm planning for an 18" full marty cabinet behind the screen. Depending on performance and available funds, I might build a second one to put in the back.
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post #52 of 62 Old 09-06-2019, 02:57 AM
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Yeah I'm already hooked now on the DIY route, so if you check out my last drawing, you'll see I'm planning for an 18" full marty cabinet behind the screen. Depending on performance and available funds, I might build a second one to put in the back.
Depending on availability the B&C 21ds115 might be cheaper for you than the ultimax, and would work very well in the full marty cab, gives the same lows as the 18 but more effortless mid bass!

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post #53 of 62 Old 09-06-2019, 03:08 AM
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For example the La Voce 21 that has been compared to the B&C can be had from here https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/ha...-21-pouce.html shipped to Belgium for around 390 Euro.

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post #54 of 62 Old 09-06-2019, 04:09 AM - Thread Starter
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For example the La Voce 21 that has been compared to the B&C can be had from here https://www.toutlehautparleur.com/ha...-21-pouce.html shipped to Belgium for around 390 Euro.

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Should I google for reviews or do you have experience with these ?

Should the cabinet size be recalculated if I go from an 18" driver to a 21" to keep the same tuning ?
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post #55 of 62 Old 09-06-2019, 03:47 PM
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Should I google for reviews or do you have experience with these ?



Should the cabinet size be recalculated if I go from an 18" driver to a 21" to keep the same tuning ?
Get on the DIY subs section on here, theres tons of people building cabs that are really enjoying them, the only thing that needs to be changed is the driver cut out size! They're basically the same driver as the b&c that I use but a bit cheaper, I can almost guarantee 2 of these in full martys would blow you away.

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post #56 of 62 Old 09-09-2019, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Awesome, I'm already into full blown overkill mode now. Got my eyes on building 2 Devastators with 21" drivers, either the B&C or the LaVoce, depending on which is available when I need it. I'm upgrading constantly and I haven't even received a single piece of equipment yet .

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post #57 of 62 Old 09-10-2019, 04:42 AM
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Coming from a Klipsch HT setup to a DIY setup I would say they have a more similar sound characteristic vs more traditional home theater speakers with a domed tweeted. High efficiency speakers with CD generally have a more dynamic sound similar to a commercial movie theater that I personally like after demoing many many different types of speakers. Another plus is you could most likely run all your HT speakers off of a quality AVR without needing separate amps. The cost savings is also nice assuming its worth your time investment. Its very gratifying to do a HT demo, see the wow on your friends faces and then follow it up with " I made all these subs and speakers". Even if they dont care...you will :-) Also no harm in mixing DIY speakers with Commericaly avaible ones that have a similar sound characteristic. Just like those JBL SCS8's which honestly are a great idea for your shaped room . Allow you to easily angle your atmos speakers and those scs8 have plenty of output to go along with them. Or you could make some volt 8's in the atmos boxes and just buy a angled mount. Granted I see the scs8 for like $350 online some places and you can always call and ask for a discount. So they are not very expensive. Or for example if you just wanted to build subs and LCR, but want to just get the theater up and running add some Klipsch speakers for surrounds or Powersound audio.

One thing I will make note of these Pro driver subs is they are not very flat in their response. They have plenty of output, but a more traditional HT sub like a stereo integrity or datyton in my winisd modeling are all flatter. That said you may not want a flat response and want a mids sub frequency (50-200) boost which those PA subs will get you in spades. You could also try leveling them out in DSP if you wanted as well. Just something to consider although I am sure they sound impressive as its lots of output for the size cab and cost. Powersound audio just started using the b & C drivers in their sub line and thats no coincidence so they can definitely be made to sound excellent.

You could even mix subs for example if you want to use the HTM12's Why not build 3 small ported boxes like 25.5x 25.5 x 24 something found in the "Marty" build threads. Than do your two devastators between them assuming you have the width which it sounded like you did. Bass is addicting. I would say run extra lines and plan ahead for expansion while its easy to get access to your open walls assuming thats were your wires will be run. The subs in my pictures are of the same size your devestators would be and "mini martys" sized subs as my speaker stands. All that said my picture is a perfect example of not fully thinking through my end goals as I have several more subs I had already built that I neglected to really think about getting behind the screen wall with ease. Subs are heavy if you dont have some helpful friends near by keep in mind "how am I gonna stack that 400 lb sub on top of the other one". This may not be your situation just trying to help out with shortcomings I personally ran into with my setup.

oh if your doing LED lights I wasted hours looking at stupid 12v kits and how to run them more than 32'. Just get 110v LED lights .They can go up to 100+ feet or so and get damn bright and can have the same remote functions.
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post #58 of 62 Old 09-11-2019, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Coming from a Klipsch HT setup to a DIY setup I would say they have a more similar sound characteristic vs more traditional home theater speakers with a domed tweeted. High efficiency speakers with CD generally have a more dynamic sound similar to a commercial movie theater that I personally like after demoing many many different types of speakers. Another plus is you could most likely run all your HT speakers off of a quality AVR without needing separate amps. The cost savings is also nice assuming its worth your time investment. Its very gratifying to do a HT demo, see the wow on your friends faces and then follow it up with " I made all these subs and speakers". Even if they dont care...you will :-) Also no harm in mixing DIY speakers with Commericaly avaible ones that have a similar sound characteristic. Just like those JBL SCS8's which honestly are a great idea for your shaped room . Allow you to easily angle your atmos speakers and those scs8 have plenty of output to go along with them. Or you could make some volt 8's in the atmos boxes and just buy a angled mount. Granted I see the scs8 for like $350 online some places and you can always call and ask for a discount. So they are not very expensive. Or for example if you just wanted to build subs and LCR, but want to just get the theater up and running add some Klipsch speakers for surrounds or Powersound audio.

One thing I will make note of these Pro driver subs is they are not very flat in their response. They have plenty of output, but a more traditional HT sub like a stereo integrity or datyton in my winisd modeling are all flatter. That said you may not want a flat response and want a mids sub frequency (50-200) boost which those PA subs will get you in spades. You could also try leveling them out in DSP if you wanted as well. Just something to consider although I am sure they sound impressive as its lots of output for the size cab and cost. Powersound audio just started using the b & C drivers in their sub line and thats no coincidence so they can definitely be made to sound excellent.

You could even mix subs for example if you want to use the HTM12's Why not build 3 small ported boxes like 25.5x 25.5 x 24 something found in the "Marty" build threads. Than do your two devastators between them assuming you have the width which it sounded like you did. Bass is addicting. I would say run extra lines and plan ahead for expansion while its easy to get access to your open walls assuming thats were your wires will be run. The subs in my pictures are of the same size your devestators would be and "mini martys" sized subs as my speaker stands. All that said my picture is a perfect example of not fully thinking through my end goals as I have several more subs I had already built that I neglected to really think about getting behind the screen wall with ease. Subs are heavy if you dont have some helpful friends near by keep in mind "how am I gonna stack that 400 lb sub on top of the other one". This may not be your situation just trying to help out with shortcomings I personally ran into with my setup.

oh if your doing LED lights I wasted hours looking at stupid 12v kits and how to run them more than 32'. Just get 110v LED lights .They can go up to 100+ feet or so and get damn bright and can have the same remote functions.
Thanks for the feedback.

I'm planning on getting the Denon X4500H, so that should be OK for the HTM-12's. Would I need an extra amp to get full power out of the (500W) HTM-12's ?

I already bought 4x Micca M-8C's for overhead Atmos, read a lot of good things about them.

Will definitely start with the 2x Devastators, try to get that sound as good as possible and then see if I need anything else, particularly at the really low frequencies. Maybe add 2 Beast Mode Devastators in the back.
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post #59 of 62 Old 09-11-2019, 11:03 AM
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Thanks for the feedback.

I'm planning on getting the Denon X4500H, so that should be OK for the HTM-12's. Would I need an extra amp to get full power out of the (500W) HTM-12's ?

I already bought 4x Micca M-8C's for overhead Atmos, read a lot of good things about them.

Will definitely start with the 2x Devastators, try to get that sound as good as possible and then see if I need anything else, particularly at the really low frequencies. Maybe add 2 Beast Mode Devastators in the back.
Not sure you would need to power any of those DIY speakers as they are all very sensitive and unlike klipsch its a true sensitivity rating. Lets say your receiver puts out and this is just a guess realistically 80 watts to each LCR speaker your db output to power ratio would look like this.
DB/ watts of power
97 1
100 2
103 4
106 6
109 12
112 24
115 48
118 96
121 192
125 384
126? 500
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calcula...lification.htm

So your looking at -12 you could be leaving on the table so to speak. But, I honestly dont think its worth your time or money to setup and get separates. Personally I have tested using my 1099's with AV vs multiple external amps. DSI crowns with 700 watts - 280, Inukes (dont use inuke amps for speakers), QSC, para sound and they all sound very very similar to my ears. I honestly would say the qsc sounded the best but its like "did it really sound any better" kinda thing. Only real noticeable difference I found was when I maxed out the AV and compared each speaker at full volume the external amps had a cleaner single as it has less distortion at that volume. Doing Rew sweeps the speakers also looked identical from what I could see. So long story short if you want a bit more output sure go for it. Your Av will level match your speakers to balance your lesser speakers with your louder ones for a balanced sound stage anyways and aside from headroom for those random spikes of sound its really not needed for those speakers. If you had a low sensitivity setup like Polks then you will need external amps cause 1. polks sound like crap to my ears and (sorry polk fans) and 2. they are power hungry and really need lots of watts to shine.

For the record I do use external amps for my speakers. Mostly because I like how the amps look in my rack and I think its cool. Its honestly more of a hassle when running the system and turning it on off. In addition if something goes wrong way more trouble shooting. I use all crown DSI1000's for my speakers. So even at that I only give my speakers 280 rms @ 8ohms and they can take 1000 or something I have no idea honestly. I will say I played my 1099's with just 1 speaker and no subs going on 1 channel @ 280 and it was horrendously loud. We had 5 grown men in the room all covering their ears in discomfort and the speaker didnt even care it was clear as day. SO! long ass reply sorry but yea its gonna be so loud with the receiver I dont think you will need the added output.

"we need more power" - My Wife.

Theater Build Thread - Wartooth
lemonslush is offline  
post #60 of 62 Old 09-11-2019, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Very helpful, thanks !
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