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post #61 of 121 Old 09-13-2019, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Thinking about placement of the gear, will only have the AVR, 4k-player and sub amp for now, so it won't be a rack but just a small table or so.

Any (dis)advantages to placing it upfront left/right to reduce speaker cable length, or placing it in the back out of sight ?
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post #62 of 121 Old 09-14-2019, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jorisdriesen View Post
Thinking about placement of the gear, will only have the AVR, 4k-player and sub amp for now, so it won't be a rack but just a small table or so.

Any (dis)advantages to placing it upfront left/right to reduce speaker cable length, or placing it in the back out of sight ?
Up front if in your line of site could be distracting during a move.

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post #63 of 121 Old 09-14-2019, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, and I'm limited by my fiber HDMI cable from the AVR to the projector. So probably in the back will be better, closer to the projector, and then taking some extra feet of speaker cable won't be an issue.
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post #64 of 121 Old 09-21-2019, 02:40 AM - Thread Starter
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First components starting to come in ! Will post pictures later. Also decided to sell my UHD65 and order the Epson 6050UB. Will be an improvement in picture quality due to contrast and brightness I read.

Question: any advantage in choosing a "(DIY) ceiling mounted box" for the projector instead of a ceiling mount ? Can't think of any, but I see many people going for the box.
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post #65 of 121 Old 09-21-2019, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jorisdriesen View Post
First components starting to come in ! Will post pictures later. Also decided to sell my UHD65 and order the Epson 6050UB. Will be an improvement in picture quality due to contrast and brightness I read.



Question: any advantage in choosing a "(DIY) ceiling mounted box" for the projector instead of a ceiling mount ? Can't think of any, but I see many people going for the box.
I think the boxes are built with acoustical lining on the inside so as go reduce the noise heard from the projector at the seats, I know most projectors sound like planes.

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post #66 of 121 Old 09-21-2019, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Good point, so maybe I need to look into that, thanks.

First goodies for the Belgian Build:





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post #67 of 121 Old 09-24-2019, 03:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys,

I'm not sure about the position of the 4x Atmos speakers, because of my sloped ceiling. it's about the left/right distances.

Because my ceiling is sloped, the speakers will be dropping in height as I move them further away from the room center line. Do I just project the 45° line (prefered angle with 4 speakers) onto a flat ceiling and then intersect with my sloped ceiling ? The speakers will then be lower than the height of the flat part of the ceiling. Is that prefered over placing them more inwards but higher ? I would think so, but not sure.

Thanks.
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post #68 of 121 Old 09-24-2019, 05:22 AM
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I'd drop them down on the sides a bit to get some separation but not lower than 8ft from the floor. If you put them the width of the screen apart how low will they be?
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post #69 of 121 Old 09-24-2019, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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My ceiling is less than 8ft high (2,5m).

Red = at screen width apart. Height is then 1,5m = 4,5 ft
Green = Dolby max width (0,7 x layout width). Height is then 1,75m = 5,25 ft
Blue = Dolby min width (0,5 x layout width). Height is then 2,1m = 6,3 ft




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post #70 of 121 Old 09-24-2019, 10:52 AM
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blue.

I'm concerned about your ability to walk around the end of your couch without ducking down if the ceiling height is only 4 1/2 feet there.
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post #71 of 121 Old 09-24-2019, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, will probably have to dive over the couch from the back It's my home theater, not my friends'
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post #72 of 121 Old 09-24-2019, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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You don't think the speakers are too close together with blue ?
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post #73 of 121 Old 09-24-2019, 01:17 PM
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You want separation or height? Pick one. At the blue spots they will be 6.89 ft off the floor. Of course closer than idea, but your room is not ideal for Atmos ceiling speakers.
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post #74 of 121 Old 09-24-2019, 02:13 PM
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I like how they use full surround scaffolding for two story homes, I've seen that in other European projects. It is rare to see here.
Having worked as a carpenter in Norway, its often just a lot quicker. It takes half a day for four people to throw up a 2 story scaffolding around a house and when you have it up everything else goes a lot quicker. Like for example, you can put the windows on the ground underneath where they go in and then four people put in an entire house worth of windows in one day with time to spare because you just lift it up between the scaffolding and the wall.

EDIT: We actually did the math one time, comparing two projects. And determined that we even increased efficiency by just throwing up the scaffolding at the start instead of being lazy and just throwing up where we thought it was really needed. Because we worked a lot quicker. Also, by using some steel zip-ties to hold the top L-shapes of the scaffolding in place (otherwise the top railing CAN fall straight off if you lean against it too hard), we further increased efficiency. Because we worked faster with more confidence when we knew for certain that we could lean towards the railing. Even the old owner of the company who has 47 years in carpentry agreed that he worked quicker when he knew he could lean towards the railing when we lifted up the top wall sections of a module-assembled cottage.

At OP: I'm glad they convinced you to get more subwooferage.

have you decided on LCRs? The danger of using subwoofer horns is that you miiight be lacking a little in midbass if the LCRs are a little lacking in that department. The initial strike of the drumstick on the drums, and the first finger tap on the bass guitar, etc, is a lot higher frequency than the strumming bass note that follows. So without proper midbass on the LCRs you suffer a lot of the believability of the sound. And that "attack" as its known, is rather directional because is such high frequency (as opposed to the low bass notes which can be played from anywhere in the room), so its best that each LCR (and also rear speakers) are capable of reproducing mid bass properly. If you sum the mid bass signal in an active crossover for a pair of extra 15" midbass enclosures then it won't be as good as if the LCRs can make that midbass themselves.

Midbass is very cheap because PA woofers are very cheap, so there's no reason not to have great midbass in the LCRs.

Active crossover these days is cheaper than a good passive crossover so don't be scared to go for an active crossover LCR setup. Especially 2-way LCRs are cheap to do with active crossover. PA compression drivers have no issues playing reaaaaally loud and clearly with very little wattage, so you can get a good low wattage amp with DSP for the LCR high frequency horns themselves and a very cheap higher wattage amp for the LCR woofers (then just choose a Sanway amp or something else that can deliver the raw juice for the subwoofers). This amplifier DSP will allow you to boost the EQ above about 13khz where most compression drivers will taper off in output (you can't boost this frequency range above the 0db point earlier than the amplifier or you risk clipping the signal and destroying the compression drivers, so if you want to boost the compression drivers' output above 13khz without DSP on the amplifier, you have to have lower the EQ signal below 13hkz and then ramp up the voltage gain on the amplifier, which in turns means you need an expensive high wattage amplifier, but then you might as well go for a DSP amplifier instead).

One note though, whatever LCR solution you go with, you're going to want to brace the enclosures more than most actually do. The signal to noise ratio of an amplifier can be 70 to 100db, meanwhile the signal to noise ratio on a pair of REALLY good LCR enclosures, is just 30db. So if you play 100db then the enclosures themselves produce 70db of noise just from the movement of the enclosure panels. And that's a REALLY good enclosure that is braced like this:





Internal stuffing and such helps you a little bit to get closer to 36-39db signal to noise ratio. But that's with rockwool and butyl mats and so forth (effectively costing a hundred times more than the 5 bucks in glue and screws you'll use to brace the enclosure A LOT with off-cuts of wood).

The bracing doesn't have to be as complex as this, but the maximum distance between bracing has to be very even. There's little point bracing one area a lot while another spot is practically unbraced.

EDIT: PS; the bracing itself also has to be braced asymmetrically for truly spectacular results. Long wood screws can be used to bridge between some pieces of the bracing so they don't resonate at the same frequencies.

cms, aka driver diaphragm suspension mechanical compliance: 0.000065 meter/Newton or in standard form 6.5e-05 m/N. (smaller number is better)
rms, aka driver diaphragm suspension mechanical resistance: 6.41 Newton.sec/meter. (higher number is better)

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post #75 of 121 Old 09-25-2019, 01:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey @ronny31 thanks for the lengthy feedback

I've ordered 3x HTM-12's from DIYSG as my LCR. Didn't do a lot of frequency-based research on those, but just read in a lot of threads here on the forum that people are extremely happy with their performance. I had my mind set on Klipsch RP-8000F for quite some time, but after reading and searching about the HTM-12's, it looked like a no-brainer to order them.

Not sure how they match with your above advice...
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post #76 of 121 Old 09-27-2019, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Would it be advised to have an extra wall behind the couch, for the sound quality ? I think I have power enough for that whole room, but would you expect certain disadvantages in sound quality by leaving the room open like that ?
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post #77 of 121 Old 10-11-2019, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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OK finally received all the new tools and got started tonight setting everything up. Will try to cut all panels to size for the HTM-12's tomorrow, and start assembly on Sunday.



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post #78 of 121 Old 10-12-2019, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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All the cutting is done, quickly did a test fit and it looks nice. I'm just starting to realize how insanely huge these are !!

Cut list below for 3x HTM-12's out of 2 sheets of 18mm MDF.





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post #79 of 121 Old 10-13-2019, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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All final cuts completed for 1 speaker, test fit looks nice.





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post #80 of 121 Old 10-13-2019, 11:37 AM
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Besides, putting any speaker behind a screen will require plenty of EQ'ing to compensate for the drop in frequency response.
Not really. Any decent AT screen will have barely any more effect on frequency response than a speaker grill.
I agree. I use spandex 100”x42” sounds great !

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post #81 of 121 Old 10-13-2019, 12:02 PM
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I use a Denon x4300, great receiver, super easy to setup and use, very flexible for sure, i do use it as a prepro i have outboard amps, i use the Denon assignable amps for the (4) Atmos speakers.
I bet it will drive those DIY kits with no problem, are you doing 7.1.4 ?
And be sure to give the Denon enough room to breathe, mine runs pretty warm, i swear its always on Lol

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post #82 of 121 Old 10-14-2019, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Will go for 5.4.4 to start, maybe go to 7-channel surround later.

Cross-over boards coming up nicely (first time soldering ever):





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post #83 of 121 Old 10-15-2019, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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My longest speaker cable will be 14m (46 feet). What speaker cable size should I use ? As per this table I need 16awg, which is 1,5mm2 cable surface. Is that about right ? Don't want to spend more than required, but of course don't want to reduced my sound quality because of $100 less on cables.

http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable
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post #84 of 121 Old 10-16-2019, 05:57 AM
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I know it's probably overkill, but I ran 12 gauge to everything. It's only $190 for a 500' monoprice spool: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2817

I just pulled about 480 feet worth, and it's really nice cable to work with.
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post #85 of 121 Old 10-16-2019, 01:21 PM
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I know it's probably overkill, but I ran 12 gauge to everything. It's only $190 for a 500' monoprice spool: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=2817

I just pulled about 480 feet worth, and it's really nice cable to work with.

I did this as well, also used Monoprice

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post #86 of 121 Old 10-17-2019, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Everything is much more expensive in Europe.

The cheapest I can find in 12awg (4mm2) is $70 for 330ft, but this seems like a no-name brand. Can you justify going for a cheaper brand if you take a 1 size thicker cable ?

Difference in type: OFC vs CCA ?

*edit* just googled a bit, seems like CCA isn't nearly as good as "pure" copper types, so no CCA. This means the cheaper types are a no-go already Rest is kinda expensive.

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post #87 of 121 Old 10-20-2019, 02:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I was thinking about flexibility to move the Devastators, in case I want to add MBM's later on and put them upfront while changing the Dev's to a position in the back of the room. I needed to remodel the false wall.

Please check this design:

* Support for the screen will just be 2x beams of 4"x4", supported by a vertical beam. Should be OK to hang the screen from I think.
* Only 3 AT panels (in blue) with the possibility to easily remove the bottom panel in case I need to move things to/from behind the screen.
* No AT panel above the screen, but the back wall will be painted black (like the rest of the room).


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post #88 of 121 Old 10-21-2019, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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OK better to have the AT panels just touch the screen, and then the bottom panel is just below the ports of the center channel, so no blocking there. I think it looks nice and very easy to build.

@BIGmouthinDC what do you think ?

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post #89 of 121 Old 11-06-2019, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys,

does it matter which cable thickness I use for the cables inside of the HTM-12 speakers ? I have a 14awg cable for the wiring inside the theater, but that seems pretty overkill for inside the actual speakers. So can I use some cheap cable that I have laying around ? Max distance inside the speaker is 1-1,5 feet.

Thanks.
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post #90 of 121 Old 11-06-2019, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
No AT panel above the screen, but the back wall will be painted black (like the rest of the room).
If it were me I'd build one for above the screen as well - it will just look cleaner.

Quote:
Guys,

does it matter which cable thickness I use for the cables inside of the HTM-12 speakers ? I have a 14awg cable for the wiring inside the theater, but that seems pretty overkill for inside the actual speakers. So can I use some cheap cable that I have laying around ? Max distance inside the speaker is 1-1,5 feet.
As I understand it there are some drawbacks to using different (in particular smaller) cables inside the speaker compared to what's coming in from the outside. I would just use the same gauge that you're using for speaker wire and eliminate any possibility of issues.

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