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post #31 of 59 Old 08-26-2019, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Update..
Thanks for all the tips and the DIY guidance, it's led me to some good stuff. I've messaged with Erich and he's recommending that I go with the 8" MTM's (duals for LCR and single woofers for surrounds) for my room size.

Thanks to the DIY wormhole, I think I've figured out what I want to do with bass. INFINITE BAFFLE!!!! It'll take a lot more research, but I think that I can get some pretty huge responsive bass for a fraction of the cost instead of going with top brands and also not having to have big sub boxes in the room. Since there is open attic on all three sides of the theater room and above the ceiling, IB subs seem like a great way to go.... check out this picture (took this at a house that had finished building...same floorplan as the one i will do, this is just through the door on the left wall....LOTS of space, the attic space wraps around the front and right side wall too:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...607572&thumb=1


IB subs seem like the perfect solution.... am I missing something?.. is there a disadvantage to IB subs vs something like dual monolith 15"?? I'm thinking (for now) dual manifolds with each with 2 15" subs each manifold....
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post #32 of 59 Old 08-26-2019, 04:52 PM
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Is the Mrs a Saint, who won't complain about bass, ripping through the home's structure?
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post #33 of 59 Old 08-26-2019, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Is the Mrs a Saint, who won't complain about bass, ripping through the home's structure?
Lol. Yeah that might be an issue.... What if I built a giant soundproofed box around the enclosures....would that help contain the bass?

Do IB subs really boom through the whole house?

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post #34 of 59 Old 08-26-2019, 06:34 PM
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Any large subs are going to be an issue here, with the theater on the second floor.
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post #35 of 59 Old 08-26-2019, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Any large subs are going to be an issue here, with the theater on the second floor.
Well, it's over the garage, so hopefully that will help some

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post #36 of 59 Old 08-27-2019, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Cagle View Post
Lol. Yeah that might be an issue.... What if I built a giant soundproofed box around the enclosures....would that help contain the bass?

Do IB subs really boom through the whole house?

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Sound volume in the attic is about the same as in the room. It diminishes with distance, but year, any connected attic space is going to have lots of bass. And that bass is going to leak into any and all bordering living spaces to a greater or lesser degree.

Probably similar to large subs in one room of the house with no effort to mitigate (no sound isolation at all) as heard from other rooms in the house. Maybe a bit worse.

Yes, building large enclosures in the attic space will help that tremendously. They don't have to meet the "ideal" IB size of 10x VAS. Going just to 4x VAS gives the vast majority of benefit. I'd loosely fill the entire enclosure with insulation/poly batting in that case though.
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post #37 of 59 Old 08-30-2019, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Sound volume in the attic is about the same as in the room. It diminishes with distance, but year, any connected attic space is going to have lots of bass. And that bass is going to leak into any and all bordering living spaces to a greater or lesser degree.



Probably similar to large subs in one room of the house with no effort to mitigate (no sound isolation at all) as heard from other rooms in the house. Maybe a bit worse.



Yes, building large enclosures in the attic space will help that tremendously. They don't have to meet the "ideal" IB size of 10x VAS. Going just to 4x VAS gives the vast majority of benefit. I'd loosely fill the entire enclosure with insulation/poly batting in that case though.
Thanks. Really like the IB idea. Good to know an enclosure would help.


As of now I'm planning on going the diysg route, but just found out I have a really good hookup on Elura blue series....what do you guys think of those??

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post #38 of 59 Old 08-30-2019, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, building large enclosures in the attic space will help that tremendously. They don't have to meet the "ideal" IB size of 10x VAS. Going just to 4x VAS gives the vast majority of benefit. I'd loosely fill the entire enclosure with insulation/poly batting in that case though.
Cool. I'm thinking of building an enclosure by hanging double sheet rock green glue on clips and channels around the space the subs will be in. Are you saying you'd fill the area INSIDE the enclosure with insulation? Wouldn't that mess up the VAS? Or do you mean between the studs outside of the enclosure?

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post #39 of 59 Old 08-30-2019, 07:32 PM
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Inside the enclosure. This is a common practice in any enclosure, especially sealed. I'm not saying you have to cram it full to the top, but plenty of cheap insulation, polyfill, old pillows, whatever will increase the effective box size a bit which in sealed enclosures, pseudo IB included, is almost universally a good thing.
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post #40 of 59 Old 08-30-2019, 11:01 PM
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I have a 20' x 14' room and it is not deep enough for 2 rows of seats as you really want the back row a few feet off the back wall and the front row more than 1/2 way (and up to 2/3rds) from the front wall.
I solved the problem by putting a "bar" behind the front rows with stools - cheaper than a 2nd couch that would be rarely used, gets rear 'seats' further from the rear wall and closer to the sweet spot in my 7.2.4 Atmos setup.


The width of the room is a bit narrow too so my surrounds are mounted in enclosures in the wall and placed slightly ahead of the couch. Sitting in the middle of 3 seats if I turn my head the speaker is just in fornt of the persons head sitting next to me. This prevents them from blocking the HF and puts them more off axis reducing the SPL they receive. And don't use bipoles or dipoles if you plan to go Atmos later - you need direct speakers.
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post #41 of 59 Old 08-30-2019, 11:45 PM
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I see a lot of mentions about speakers, but no plan to go along with those choices. Choosing speakers should not be a brand thing, a cost thing, or how quickly can I blow my eardrums thing. It’s about getting the angles right, what can fit them in those locations, and deliver THX established reference levels to your seating location. Not to mention off axis response wall reflections, non screen interference, so on and so on. My humble suggestion, would be to take a look at the Dolby speaker angle requirements, get some graph paper, a pencil, and protractor, and draw your room. Use the 1/3 or 1/5 rule as a general rule of thumb to place your front row, draw the recommended angles from the seating location. Then, based on where those angles land, see if the speaker you are looking at purchasing will fit in that location. Things will most definitely go a lot smoother. I attached an image to help visualize it a bit better.
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post #42 of 59 Old 08-31-2019, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niterida View Post
I have a 20' x 14' room and it is not deep enough for 2 rows of seats as you really want the back row a few feet off the back wall and the front row more than 1/2 way (and up to 2/3rds) from the front wall.
I solved the problem by putting a "bar" behind the front rows with stools - cheaper than a 2nd couch that would be rarely used, gets rear 'seats' further from the rear wall and closer to the sweet spot in my 7.2.4 Atmos setup.


The width of the room is a bit narrow too so my surrounds are mounted in enclosures in the wall and placed slightly ahead of the couch. Sitting in the middle of 3 seats if I turn my head the speaker is just in fornt of the persons head sitting next to me. This prevents them from blocking the HF and puts them more off axis reducing the SPL they receive. And don't use bipoles or dipoles if you plan to go Atmos later - you need direct speakers.
Good info. Especially the side speakers, ive been struggling with how to plan for that.

Yeah, on on the fence about a second row and getting good audio setup with it... I'm thinking I might just have an ideal row. And then we have a black velvet fould out couch I may just place in front on the "ideal row". Would be a good listening place but it would give somewhere for people to sit if others come over and I can adjust the screen size a bit smaller for those instances... Would also make it usesable as an extra guest bedroom on the occasion it was needed

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post #43 of 59 Old 08-31-2019, 06:27 AM
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Well, it's over the garage, so hopefully that will help some

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That's not going to help. Once the bass gets into the framing of the house, you never know what wall/s in the home resonate in sympathy and can act as a speaker.
The worst case of this, I have experienced, is a very high end home theater situated over a three car garage. It did not involve an IB sub, but it did involve four
highly capable subs and some infill subs.
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post #44 of 59 Old 08-31-2019, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I see a lot of mentions about speakers, but no plan to go along with those choices. Choosing speakers should not be a brand thing, a cost thing, or how quickly can I blow my eardrums thing. It’s about getting the angles right, what can fit them in those locations, and deliver THX established reference levels to your seating location. Not to mention off axis response wall reflections, non screen interference, so on and so on. My humble suggestion, would be to take a look at the Dolby speaker angle requirements, get some graph paper, a pencil, and protractor, and draw your room. Use the 1/3 or 1/5 rule as a general rule of thumb to place your front row, draw the recommended angles from the seating location. Then, based on where those angles land, see if the speaker you are looking at purchasing will fit in that location. Things will most definitely go a lot smoother. I attached an image to help visualize it a bit better.
Thanks. What's the 1/3 rule and 1/5 rule?

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post #45 of 59 Old 08-31-2019, 10:06 PM
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I see a lot of mentions about speakers, but no plan to go along with those choices. Choosing speakers should not be a brand thing, a cost thing, or how quickly can I blow my eardrums thing. It’️s about getting the angles right, what can fit them in those locations, and deliver THX established reference levels to your seating location. Not to mention off axis response wall reflections, non screen interference, so on and so on. My humble suggestion, would be to take a look at the Dolby speaker angle requirements, get some graph paper, a pencil, and protractor, and draw your room. Use the 1/3 or 1/5 rule as a general rule of thumb to place your front row, draw the recommended angles from the seating location. Then, based on where those angles land, see if the speaker you are looking at purchasing will fit in that location. Things will most definitely go a lot smoother. I attached an image to help visualize it a bit better.
Thanks. What's the 1/3 rule and 1/5 rule?

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It’s a quick rule of thumb where to place seating so you help eliminate sticking your seats in a null or peak. Divide the room into thirds or fifths...generally depending how many rows you have. If memory serves, you place your seats in the zones not on the dividing lines. For instance, two rows, you stick the first row in the third zone and second row in the 5th zone. Worry about heat location not seats. It won’t duplicate an acoustical analysis, and is quick and dirty, but can be effective. Hope this helps!

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post #46 of 59 Old 09-03-2019, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a rude sketch up of room and speaker placement

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post #47 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a much better sketch up.....hope the builder can accommodate where I will need the 16" studs...

First seat is a compromise and won't be watchable from there.. think 120"screen... Guess I can shrink it down to 80" when someone is sitting up front

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post #48 of 59 Old 09-04-2019, 08:25 PM
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Your contractor and your framers may be vastly different from mine, so this may have no relevance to your situation. But in my case, I found that contractor and framers were very helpful and willing to accommodate specific or even unusual requests so long as I could adequately explain or sketch what I wanted/needed and it didn't run afoul of code or good framing common sense.

What was more the limiting factors in my case were timing and communication. For example, perhaps I would notice a room or wall or floor or whatever nearing a certain point in construction which brought to attention a certain detail that would be helpful that perhaps I had not thought about until physically seeing that stage of progress. Before I could communicate a request cogently to my contractor and her in turn communicate that to framers, they had already passed that point. Sometimes were well beyond it.

That happened on one occasion in real time. We met with contractor at construction site to discuss a specific issue or two. I noticed walking around a minor detail that I wanted an opinion about whether to leave or change. We finished discussing what we were there for in a half hour or so. When done I brought up the other question, only to realize that while we were on one end of the house they had already framed substantially more on the other end and that question was now moot. No turning back. That happened in a half hour, and they weren't even working in that area when I made a mental note to ask later.

All that to say, framing happens fast. If there are specific requests, try your best to sit down and clearly go over them with contractor and framers before framing starts. Because once it does it's a blur. Mine were happy to work with me and be flexible, but sometimes what is already built is already built. We did move a wall a bit, closed a door in, moved a door, added accesses here and there. But some things are very difficult and expensive to undo to the point of being impractical.

The other limiting factor is material changes. Some requests may alter the length of a gluelam or lvl, or size of a member, and if already delivered to site it is a bigger cost hit to make that change. That only happened twice. Once I took the hit, once I didn't.
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post #49 of 59 Old 09-05-2019, 07:29 PM
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Here's a much better sketch up.....hope the builder can accommodate where I will need the 16" studs...

First seat is a compromise and won't be watchable from there.. think 120"screen... Guess I can shrink it down to 80" when someone is sitting up front

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What are your speaker angles from the front row?

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post #50 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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What are your speaker angles from the front row?
Not sure. I'll have to run the angles in the model... I'm sure they are well over 30. Front row is a sentimental loveseat/pull out bed that belonged to my wife's grandfather. More of a functional place to put it then actual movie watching, would only be used on the occasion that more than us and the 2 kids are watching something. Would there be a way to get the correct angles for both the front and mlp? Maybe build vertical corner soffits at an angle for housing the LR speakers?

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post #51 of 59 Old 09-11-2019, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Was contemplating doing this anways to stuff with 703 and use as bass traps

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post #52 of 59 Old 09-12-2019, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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What are your speaker angles from the front row?
38 Degrees
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post #53 of 59 Old 09-12-2019, 03:58 PM
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Dolby specs are between 45 and 60 degrees. You may want to see if you can get your front row to be somewhere in there.

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post #54 of 59 Old 09-12-2019, 03:59 PM
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Was contemplating doing this anways to stuff with 703 and use as bass traps
Unnecessary to be honest if you set things up correctly.

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post #55 of 59 Old 09-12-2019, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Really? That's good news. Maybe I'm interpreting this wrong, on the Dolby Atmos home theater guidelines im reading it as 22-30 degrees.

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post #56 of 59 Old 09-14-2019, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Dolby specs are between 45 and 60 degrees. You may want to see if you can get your front row to be somewhere in there.
Hey Mike....is it not 22-30 degrees (see above post)

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post #57 of 59 Old 09-15-2019, 08:24 AM
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It is 22-30 degrees subtended. You must double that for the correct angle.

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post #58 of 59 Old 09-15-2019, 09:12 AM
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I would suggest moving your side surrounds slightly forward of your MLP since you are running 7.1. Sides only need to be behind if you are running 5.1
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post #59 of 59 Old 09-16-2019, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Alternate layout?

After reading https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...ema-build.html this thread, I got to thinking about using Theater seats against the back wall.

Originally, I was going to put a love-seat we have in the front row about 9' from the screen and the red couch on the back row about 13' from screen. planning on using 120' diag screen, so this would be about right for the red couch but on the rare occasion someone is in front row, I could shrink the screen down using lens position memory.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...616382&thumb=1


Alternate setup, using cecil commercial movie chairs from 4seating.com. this puts the read chairs in the front row, about 11' from screen, and puts the Commercial Seats (grey) in the back row 14'-15' from the screen. had to move the surrounds sides and rears from a 4' height to a 5' height, and the commercial seats would be right in front of the rears.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...616384&thumb=1

it feels like the original plan was forcing the black loveseat in. I think the alternate layout would be better viewing distances for both rows, but would sacrifice the surround sound field for the back row, which would probably be okay since they would rarely get used.

what do you guys think?
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