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post #1 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Insulation in Riser?

I'm building a 16" Riser that is built in two levels. I want to add Roxul Safe and Sound insulation. My question is do I add it inbetween the joists in both levels, just the top, just the bottom?
I've seen videos and builds that do all 3, but haven't really seen a consensus on which is the best approach.

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post #2 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 01:23 AM
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Man why do people waste such opportunities. Instead of filling that with insulation and putting some boxed subwoofer in the front of the room, why not put your subs into the riser firing into your seating and use all that box space? My riser was large enough air space to handle 4 12" infinite baffle subs. My friend's was large enough for 2 18" infinite baffle subs.

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post #3 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Man why do people waste such opportunities. Instead of filling that with insulation and putting some boxed subwoofer in the front of the room, why not put your subs into the riser firing into your seating and use all that box space? My riser was large enough air space to handle 4 12" infinite baffle subs. My friend's was large enough for 2 18" infinite baffle subs.
Well the riser filled with insulation acts as a bass trap too though, right? Different rooms have different needs.

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post #4 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Dizzy49 View Post
My question is do I add it in-between the joists in both levels, just the top, just the bottom?

Both, top and bottom.. stuff it with pink fluffy.
IMHO, I would not put roxul in the riser. The idea is as a bass absorber. some call it bass trap, but the insulation is there to dampen the overall bass response within the room, 'boomyness'. When installing the roxul in my walls, I came to the conclusion that the density for the use in the riser would not work to allow significant airflow dampening in the riser. I opted to stuff mine with regular insulation, as it's less dense, and would allow the air to move somewhat more so than the roxul.

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post #5 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 05:42 AM
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If you want to use the riser as a bass absorber you need to add some openings along the rooms boundaries, where the riser is next to the wall. It is an old Dennis Erskine secret sauce promoted in his designs. There is no reason to use the more expensive Roxul unless you have an allergy to fiberglass.
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post #6 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
If you want to use the riser as a bass absorber you need to add some openings along the rooms boundaries, where the riser is next to the wall. It is an old Dennis Erskine secret sauce promoted in his designs. There is no reason to use the more expensive Roxul unless you have an allergy to fiberglass.
Yes, I have a couple vents along the 7' side that is next to the wall.

My wife and daughter have ridiculously sensitive skin so we have to be careful what insulation is in the house. I already have the Roxul, I'm just trying to figure out how much of it to use. Top level of the rise, bottom level, or both.

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post #7 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Man why do people waste such opportunities. Instead of filling that with insulation and putting some boxed subwoofer in the front of the room, why not put your subs into the riser firing into your seating and use all that box space? My riser was large enough air space to handle 4 12" infinite baffle subs. My friend's was large enough for 2 18" infinite baffle subs.
Do you have a link to any procedures and materials to do this? We're building our riser now and would like to wire it to do this in the future.

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post #8 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 01:16 PM
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I think you would just need speaker wire run for the future subs.

Either way, hop on over to the DIY section and ask some questions there - they're the experts on infinite baffle setups.

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post #9 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by qlizard View Post
Do you have a link to any procedures and materials to do this? We're building our riser now and would like to wire it to do this in the future.
Go BOSS:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...y-theater.html

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #10 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Man why do people waste such opportunities. Instead of filling that with insulation and putting some boxed subwoofer in the front of the room, why not put your subs into the riser firing into your seating and use all that box space? My riser was large enough air space to handle 4 12" infinite baffle subs. My friend's was large enough for 2 18" infinite baffle subs.
How did I miss this reply?!

That sounds awesome! Right now this is a "temp" (read 3-4 years) setup, and the sound system is kind of weak. I'd love to do something like that in our perm setup, I'd also be interested in some resources on how to work that out. My riser is 7.5' x 11.5' x 16" Not HUGE, but decent enough that we could prob have some bass speakers in it.

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post #11 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Mocs123 View Post
I think you would just need speaker wire run for the future subs.



Either way, hop on over to the DIY section and ask some questions there - they're the experts on infinite baffle setups.
Thank you. Do I not need to run power in there too? I will definitely be researching and asking more in the DIY section on how to do this, but right now I have a time crunch and just need to put the wires in there. Is each speaker independent (meaning I would have to run 2-4 speaker wires back to the avr) or does the whole thing act like one big woofer (tied together and run one back to the avr)? So I should not put insulation in there? Anything else I should add or consider before it is built and enclosed?

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post #12 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 05:53 AM
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subwoofer cabinets benefit from stuffing. You would want power in your riser for the chairs. At this stage you can't predict what the wiring for the drivers might be so to be safe one wire pair per driver.

Last edited by BIGmouthinDC; 09-17-2019 at 08:48 AM.
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post #13 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 06:01 AM
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Thank you for the advice. Unfortunately unforeseen circumstances have short circuited my usual planning so doing the best I can to get ahead of it. Thanks for your help on this and my other posts elsewhere.

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post #14 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qlizard View Post
Do you have a link to any procedures and materials to do this? We're building our riser now and would like to wire it to do this in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qlizard View Post
Thank you. Do I not need to run power in there too? I will definitely be researching and asking more in the DIY section on how to do this, but right now I have a time crunch and just need to put the wires in there. Is each speaker independent (meaning I would have to run 2-4 speaker wires back to the avr) or does the whole thing act like one big woofer (tied together and run one back to the avr)? So I should not put insulation in there? Anything else I should add or consider before it is built and enclosed?
You should make sure that the riser is open not partitioned but essentially one big air space. Then run speaker wires into there to where your amp will go. For infinite baffle, this is it so long as you have air space.


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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Your BOSS is great. But in this circumstance, you don't need BOSS. These are *actual* speakers that will have the same physical effect as your BOSS system but also produce the bass sound. BOSS is great when you don't have the air space to do something like this but you still want the tactile feeling. In this case, he does have the air space so this will be like BOSS but will also be the subs. Instead of cheaper 12's it'll be very good quality 18's made for infinite baffle install.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy49 View Post
How did I miss this reply?!

That sounds awesome! Right now this is a "temp" (read 3-4 years) setup, and the sound system is kind of weak. I'd love to do something like that in our perm setup, I'd also be interested in some resources on how to work that out. My riser is 7.5' x 11.5' x 16" Not HUGE, but decent enough that we could prob have some bass speakers in it.
So your riser is 113 cubic feet and is essentially good enough to run 2 18" FI infinite baffle subs or 4 15". The 113 cubics will allow you to run 2 18's with VAS x 6 which will work out great. My friend did 2 18's firing up into his main seating and its just so awesome and aggressive plus infinite baffle gets you down to around 5hz (flat, not rolled off). Since the bass will originate essentially where you're at, you dont need to worry about room NULLs so much at least for your position. Also, since these are so deep and fire into your body, you will find you don't need to turn the bass up as much to be satisfied so it won't transfer as much sound outside the room. 2 18's firing directly into you should be enough bass. My friend's setup is so aggressive it's turned way down. The setup isn't very expensive either. $274 x 2 for the subs, $329 for the amp. That's it.

The other benefits of infinite baffle (besides the best possible sound quality) is that you don't need to build the platform as a carefully sealed sub box. You just build it as a platform. It can be built out of plywood. The underside can be open and just be your floor of your room. You can even cut a hole in it for electrical power outlet for phone charging or such if you want. Infinite baffle only needs to provide rear wave cancellation not a perfectly tuned and sealed box.

Here's my first platform build where I used 4 12's. It was great, although 4 15's would have been great. I should have made the platform 3" taller to handle the 15's. These face forward because my main seating was right in front of the platform. Ignore those 2 buttkickers. I didn't know how awesome the IB's would be. The buttkickers got ripped out and not used because you couldn't tell the difference with and without them.



Here's my friend's that we did with the subs firing up into his couch. The holes are for 18's. The front square hole is actually an extension of the furnace air vent that runs through the platform. Remember, for IB you don't need perfectly sealed platform. The air vent had a duct in it and a grill on it after. Made zero impact on sound.



Here are the subs you'd want for this. They're made especially for this application. https://ficaraudio.com/product/ib3-series-ib318-v2/

If you want to learn more about the benefits of infinite baffle subs in general check out http://www.ibsubwoofers.com/

The key here is you want the speakers firing into your main seats. So if your main seats are on top of the platform, do what my friend did and fire them up. If your main seats are in front of the platform, you'll probably want to go with the 15's so that you can fit them in front pointing right into your main seats. Oh yea, also because the platform is just a platform not a tightly sealed sub box, it'll do a fantastic job shaking the upper row of seats on the platform even if the subs fire forward.
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post #15 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
You should make sure that the riser is open not partitioned but essentially one big air space. Then run speaker wires into there to where your amp will go. For infinite baffle, this is it so long as you have air space.







Your BOSS is great. But in this circumstance, you don't need BOSS. These are *actual* speakers that will have the same physical effect as your BOSS system but also produce the bass sound. BOSS is great when you don't have the air space to do something like this but you still want the tactile feeling. In this case, he does have the air space so this will be like BOSS but will also be the subs. Instead of cheaper 12's it'll be very good quality 18's made for infinite baffle install.





So your riser is 113 cubic feet and is essentially good enough to run 2 18" FI infinite baffle subs or 4 15". The 113 cubics will allow you to run 2 18's with VAS x 6 which will work out great. My friend did 2 18's firing up into his main seating and its just so awesome and aggressive plus infinite baffle gets you down to around 5hz (flat, not rolled off). Since the bass will originate essentially where you're at, you dont need to worry about room NULLs so much at least for your position. Also, since these are so deep and fire into your body, you will find you don't need to turn the bass up as much to be satisfied so it won't transfer as much sound outside the room. 2 18's firing directly into you should be enough bass. My friend's setup is so aggressive it's turned way down. The setup isn't very expensive either. $274 x 2 for the subs, $329 for the amp. That's it.



The other benefits of infinite baffle (besides the best possible sound quality) is that you don't need to build the platform as a carefully sealed sub box. You just build it as a platform. It can be built out of plywood. The underside can be open and just be your floor of your room. You can even cut a hole in it for electrical power outlet for phone charging or such if you want. Infinite baffle only needs to provide rear wave cancellation not a perfectly tuned and sealed box.



Here's my first platform build where I used 4 12's. It was great, although 4 15's would have been great. I should have made the platform 3" taller to handle the 15's. These face forward because my main seating was right in front of the platform. Ignore those 2 buttkickers. I didn't know how awesome the IB's would be. The buttkickers got ripped out and not used because you couldn't tell the difference with and without them.







Here's my friend's that we did with the subs firing up into his couch. The holes are for 18's. The front square hole is actually an extension of the furnace air vent that runs through the platform. Remember, for IB you don't need perfectly sealed platform. The air vent had a duct in it and a grill on it after. Made zero impact on sound.







Here are the subs you'd want for this. They're made especially for this application. https://ficaraudio.com/product/ib3-series-ib318-v2/



If you want to learn more about the benefits of infinite baffle subs in general check out http://www.ibsubwoofers.com/



The key here is you want the speakers firing into your main seats. So if your main seats are on top of the platform, do what my friend did and fire them up. If your main seats are in front of the platform, you'll probably want to go with the 15's so that you can fit them in front pointing right into your main seats. Oh yea, also because the platform is just a platform not a tightly sealed sub box, it'll do a fantastic job shaking the upper row of seats on the platform even if the subs fire forward.
Wow this is great information and pictures. But I'm not sure how to build it without partitions and still be solid. Unless it is a very thick peice of plywood on top.

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post #16 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by qlizard View Post
Thank you. Do I not need to run power in there too? I will definitely be researching and asking more in the DIY section on how to do this, but right now I have a time crunch and just need to put the wires in there. Is each speaker independent (meaning I would have to run 2-4 speaker wires back to the avr) or does the whole thing act like one big woofer (tied together and run one back to the avr)? So I should not put insulation in there? Anything else I should add or consider before it is built and enclosed?

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Most people power these subs from a remote location using a professional power amp such as the Behringer NX3000D or NX6000D that would sit in your equipment rack, so no local power would be needed for the subs.

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post #17 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 07:09 AM
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Wow this is great information and pictures. But I'm not sure how to build it without partitions and still be solid. Unless it is a very thick peice of plywood on top.

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If you plan to build support beams across the platform for stability, make sure there's big openings in them so its one big air space. For example, you could make a partition that spans the front and back 25% but leaves the middle 50% empty, then the next one that spans the middle 50% but leaves the top 25% and back 25% open etc. In any event, even the floor under your house is open and you can crawl around without finding a piece of wood every 15" touching the ground If your box is 16" tall, you can use 2x6 partition all the way through and have 10" underneath it open for air flow etc.

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post #18 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 08:39 AM
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If you plan to build support beams across the platform for stability, make sure there's big openings in them so its one big air space. For example, you could make a partition that spans the front and back 25% but leaves the middle 50% empty, then the next one that spans the middle 50% but leaves the top 25% and back 25% open etc. In any event, even the floor under your house is open and you can crawl around without finding a piece of wood every 15" touching the ground If your box is 16" tall, you can use 2x6 partition all the way through and have 10" underneath it open for air flow etc.
Well, under my house is a giant cement slab that nothing could crawl under :-). But I get the point - offset the supports. My wife is building it so I'll have to see if she could manage that. It may be too late, I think all the wood is cut.

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post #19 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 08:59 AM
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Maybe I'll have to drill a hundred holes into it.

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post #20 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 02:39 PM
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Well, under my house is a giant cement slab that nothing could crawl under :-). But I get the point - offset the supports. My wife is building it so I'll have to see if she could manage that. It may be too late, I think all the wood is cut.

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You can always cut big sections out of the wood. It can’t possibly be too late. Even if the platform was completed you could flip it over and cut out 3 feet segments in each support making it a full air box. The last thing to consider is that you need to be able to put the speakers in without hitting supports but that also shouldn’t be a problem.
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post #21 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 05:31 PM
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Yep I could do that. Do you have any pictures of what the inside may look like? Thanks for the help. I look forward to actually putting it in one day.

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post #22 of 28 Old 09-18-2019, 12:30 PM
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My riser is only 76 cubic feet. I was thinking to go with 3 x 12-inch subs. Do you think that will work?

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post #23 of 28 Old 09-18-2019, 12:56 PM
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You can always cut big sections out of the wood. It can’t possibly be too late. Even if the platform was completed you could flip it over and cut out 3 feet segments in each support making it a full air box. The last thing to consider is that you need to be able to put the speakers in without hitting supports but that also shouldn’t be a problem.
Also, two more questions and I hope I'm done for now. For the infinite sub setup do I port the side (or anywhere else) and back to the original question of this thread, do I put insulation inside the box? I see some conflicting information on the latter.

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post #24 of 28 Old 09-18-2019, 01:29 PM
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I think if you all are going to put subs in the riser, check out @deauxt build. unfortunately I don't have more photos of his build, and he has YET to start a thread... but here's a flava of his. quad, ported Ultimax 18's. ..ports are towards the back of the room, on top of riser
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post #25 of 28 Old 09-20-2019, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by sirjaymz View Post
I think if you all are going to put subs in the riser, check out @deauxt build. unfortunately I don't have more photos of his build, and he has YET to start a thread... but here's a flava of his. quad, ported Ultimax 18's. ..ports are towards the back of the room, on top of riser
That looks amazing. And I can kind of see inside how they kept the space open. Mine won't be as nice as that but hopefully will still sound good. Do you know if they put insulation in there? I assume not in order to keep the air free flowing.

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post #26 of 28 Old 09-20-2019, 10:02 AM
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That looks amazing. And I can kind of see inside how they kept the space open. Mine won't be as nice as that but hopefully will still sound good. Do you know if they put insulation in there? I assume not in order to keep the air free flowing.

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Yeah.. i spoke with him on how he did it.. he said he used a jigsaw for each of the windows to cut out of flat pieces of MDF. He said he'd burn through Bosch blades, and change out every 5 or 6 panels. He had to make somewhere around 28 of them.
The only thing he uses is mattress topper from Wally-world. He does not put in any insulation per se, other than that.


He's getting carpet in the next couple of weeks, so he's anxious to install those in particular.

Maybe PM him and ask him to start a thread

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post #27 of 28 Old 09-21-2019, 04:04 AM
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Also, two more questions and I hope I'm done for now. For the infinite sub setup do I port the side (or anywhere else) and back to the original question of this thread, do I put insulation inside the box? I see some conflicting information on the latter.

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No and No.

And that build of the 18's above is not infinite baffle. It looks more just like building 4 individual sealed speaker boxes for UM18's out of the riser. This is a harder to build and will not sound as good as infinite baffle.

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post #28 of 28 Old 10-08-2019, 05:58 AM
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No and No.



And that build of the 18's above is not infinite baffle. It looks more just like building 4 individual sealed speaker boxes for UM18's out of the riser. This is a harder to build and will not sound as good as infinite baffle.
I was reading on the IB site about placement. They specifically mention that placement behind the listening position is not desired. I have the choice of doing several IB options, including the ceiling (attic above) or behind the screen (a large walk in closet). Should I pass on putting IB in the riser? If so, (back to the original topic) I want to open it up and put insulation in there before it's too late.

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