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post #61 of 148 Old 11-18-2019, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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That’s good advice. Thanks!


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post #62 of 148 Old 11-18-2019, 11:34 AM
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Seems getting the driver as far away from your ears would be best but as to how much different it might make...

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post #63 of 148 Old 11-18-2019, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by brazensol View Post
Seems getting the driver as far away from your ears would be best but as to how much different it might make...
That is what I was thinking the HT designer had in mind when they said in ceilings are better, but I think it is BS... Maybe someone trying to add "value" for their services...

I have mine at 7' to grade and to me they sound fantastic and have a very clear definition of where the sound is coming from.
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post #64 of 148 Old 11-18-2019, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok great. Yeah my on-ceilings will be about 7’ as well.

A key point to this discussion is I currently only own 2 of the height speakers. I need to purchase 2 more. So I was thinking that if in-ceilings WERE better then I could buy 4 new in-ceilings and then use the two SVS speakers as my rear surrounds (to take me to 7.x.x).

I really want to jump up to 7.2.4. I really like the idea of building DIY speakers and subs may take this on early next year. I need to see how soundproof my room actually is!



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post #65 of 148 Old 11-18-2019, 12:25 PM
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Oh that is right you only have 2 of them... Well in that case, it might make sense to go with a new set of in ceilings if it will cost you the same as your existing SVS's...

DIYSG Volt-6 speakers in their atmos boxes are really nice (that is what I have) and are super small but pack a punch. Since they are already in a sealed box, all you have to do is make a MDF backer box that they can slide into...

I will be honest here.. I would sell all your speakers and design the room with the DIYSG speakers... Since this is going towards a true dedicated setup, you should have dedicated theater speakers...

Go with some HTM-10's or 12's up front (ask DIYSG what is best for you room size and seating position) and 4 ported Volt 6's for the surrounds and 4 sealed Volt-6's for Atmos.. You can semi recess the surrounds into the wall in backer boxes and hide them with some slim columns... Then you wont have to worry about the kiddos poking the speakers or pulling off the grilles and damaging them.
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post #66 of 148 Old 11-18-2019, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post
Anyone have strong feelings regarding using on-ceiling vs in-ceiling mounted speakers for ATMOS? I was planning to use 4 SVS Prime Elevation speakers directed to the MLP.

https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-elevation

I was speaking with a HT designer the other day and he was trying to convince me that in-ceiling was better...

I can't see how in-ceiling would be better (should all be based on quality of the speaker and placement IMHO). Curious for some feedback/thoughts!
My take is the in-ceiling will give a much more polished look. If this was in the living room, I'd go with this option. But being in a dedicated theater room, WAF and speaker clutter may not matter as much...and definitely won't matter with the lights off. The on-ceiling option may offer better sound quality and possibly better aiming. I'm not sure which one would have better dispersion for the off axis seating positions... especially if ceiling height is low.

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post #67 of 148 Old 11-18-2019, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreciseD View Post
Oh that is right you only have 2 of them... Well in that case, it might make sense to go with a new set of in ceilings if it will cost you the same as your existing SVS's...

DIYSG Volt-6 speakers in their atmos boxes are really nice (that is what I have) and are super small but pack a punch. Since they are already in a sealed box, all you have to do is make a MDF backer box that they can slide into...

I will be honest here.. I would sell all your speakers and design the room with the DIYSG speakers... Since this is going towards a true dedicated setup, you should have dedicated theater speakers...

Go with some HTM-10's or 12's up front (ask DIYSG what is best for you room size and seating position) and 4 ported Volt 6's for the surrounds and 4 sealed Volt-6's for Atmos.. You can semi recess the surrounds into the wall in backer boxes and hide them with some slim columns... Then you wont have to worry about the kiddos poking the speakers or pulling off the grilles and damaging them.
Funny you should say this... I actually had a whole post written that I never posted (thought it would be confusing) regarding my interest and plan to build all my own speakers. I have a work shop with all the space and the needed table saw/tools, spray gun etc. I might repurpose the Totem 5.0 for my living room or sell them. I DEFINITELY will be looking at the Volts from DIYSG. I visited WarrenBerry's theater a few weeks ago and was quite impressed with the sound from his Volts and HTMs (I believe thats what he had...). I also want to build two Marty subs. I don't much care what they look like (behind an AT screen and will put into columns)

Full DIY will be Phase 2 though. I need to get through Phase 1. Perhaps I can get the Volts for ATMOS prepped for Phase 1.

So the DIYSG speakers will rival commercial built speakers? I can get true HIFI sound from DIYSG packages? Please forgive the question, just want to hear honest opinions on this! I want the very best ROI for $$ spent (as I guess is likely true for most of us enthusiasts on a "budget")!

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post #68 of 148 Old 11-18-2019, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Theater is moving along quickly now. Most of the electrical has been wired in. The wall sconces have been purchased (will go on two separate switches).

Pretty much narrowed my screen down to a SeymourAV 120"dia. AT.

Media cabinet has been framed in.

Met with the drywall guy and he is all good to go of insulating and soundproofing. He seemed really knowledgeable about the process, so I think Im in good hands.

HVAC goes in this week, including my media cabinet exhaust fan.

I have a plan regarding how I'm going to mount my 8 wall plate boxes (4 power inlets for 4 subs and 1 inlet for projector, 4 RCA connectors for sub cables) in the media cabinet. I'm going to buikd a mounting box out of MDF so they can all be lined up horizontally across the stub bay.

I'll post photos when I'm have wiring hanging!

Outstanding questions:

How to hang my AT projector screen. The room length short to build a wall that will include the subs(approx 2'). I really only have 12" to give up on room length...

How to mount/anchor my speakers on the walls. I was thinking up putting up plywood as my first layer on the hat channel in areas where I want to mount speakers or other. Would this be preferred over blocking in the stud bay? A bit of a dilemma! Maybe I should go straight to the columns. Far simpler then...hmmm.
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post #69 of 148 Old 11-19-2019, 10:35 AM
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I am positive the DIYSG will outperform commercial speakers (within reason) and you wouldn't be able to touch them unless you spend 3x plus....

Since you will be doing your speaker upgrades in stages (not recommended, but I understand the hesitation to sell off what you already own) just make sure that you have a plan to upgrade without having to make massive changes to existing structure/finishes/wiring...


I would see how the manufacture recommends mounting of their AT screen/frame.. If it was a DIY wood frame there are some decent plans here on AVS, but I have no idea how their frame would be attached to the wall.. I guess they have some brackets.. Is this screen 16:9 or 2.39:1? I might be able to sketch up a basic framing structure that you would then need to modify for the purchase screen frame.


Put up a sheet of OSB where you want to mount speakers.. The cost is similar to Drywall so you just swap out drywall for OSB were needed... Or do the whole room in OSB for your first sheet that way you can mount anything you want anywhere...
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post #70 of 148 Old 11-20-2019, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Cloverdale Cinema Build

Liking the idea of putting up OSB as my first layer. Makes a ton of sense.

Im now trying to design my screen wall... I have attached a drawing showing a build out concept.

A key point is I don’t have a ton of length in the room (17’6”), so I need to keep my screen wall about 10” to 12” off of the main exterior wall. This will require my subs to be exposed/visible or I need to build out boxes for them to sit in.

Questions:

I had planned on putting drywall on the exterior wall behind the screen wall. Any reason I should leave this wall unfinished (it would have to be insulated at least)?

Am correct in recalling that ~1/3 of the screen should be below eye level?

Am I ok to have the front left and right speakers behind the screen (120” dia) or would there be a better sound stage with them off to either side?

Thinking I better run enough speaker wire now to connect passive subs/MBMs down the road. Anything else to consider here?

Thoughts re housing the subs?

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post #71 of 148 Old 11-20-2019, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post
Am I ok to have the front left and right speakers behind the screen (120” dia) or would there be a better sound stage with them off to either side?
I'd prefer a wider soundstage and have them outside the screen.

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post #72 of 148 Old 11-21-2019, 10:29 AM
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That's why you make your screen as wide as your room
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post #73 of 148 Old 11-21-2019, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreciseD View Post
That's why you make your screen as wide as your room [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
+1 for the screen wall 😉

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post #74 of 148 Old 11-21-2019, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PreciseD View Post
That's why you make your screen as wide as your room

Haha, yeah I suppose. I think I'm pushing it with 120" screen for my current projector from a lumens perspective. Particularly with an AT screen. Also, sitting only 11' away I think 120" will be plenty big enough and anything larger I'm going to see degradation in picture quality (was actually thinking of going a bit smaller to preserve image quality).

Open to some contrary opinions though!

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post #75 of 148 Old 11-21-2019, 12:02 PM
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Just because the whole wall is a screen doesn't mean you need to project on all of it.

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post #76 of 148 Old 11-21-2019, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Darren Chan View Post
Just because the whole wall is a screen doesn't mean you need to project on all of it.
It would future proof the screen for a much needed projector upgrade... He can use what he has now and project a smaller image and then when he upgrades it will already be there and no wasted cost of a screen.
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post #77 of 148 Old 11-21-2019, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post
Haha, yeah I suppose. I think I'm pushing it with 120" screen for my current projector from a lumens perspective. Particularly with an AT screen. Also, sitting only 11' away I think 120" will be plenty big enough and anything larger I'm going to see degradation in picture quality (was actually thinking of going a bit smaller to preserve image quality).

Open to some contrary opinions though!
If you went 150" 2.39:1 you can still have your 120" 16:9 screen within that screen.
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post #78 of 148 Old 11-21-2019, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by PreciseD View Post
Probably better off just having the wire come out a hole the same size and caulk it.
I agree.

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Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post
... he told me that double 5/8” drywall w Green Glue treatment has been shown to adversely affect room modes wrt LFE....I understand substantial bass traps are needed? Any suggestions regarding DIY bass traps?
I have not heard of this before and know that many of the professional theater designers use this technique. I imagine with the new EQ's REW, ETC... these days that the room modes are easier to correct as long as the w/l/h of the room and seating positions don't create too much trouble. DD/GG may help some bass some but doubt it will change bass nodes much.

People have used risers with venting, behind screen areas in front, soffits, and DIY triangles in the corners (Roxul, OC703, OC705, Pillows from Walmart etc..., to help as bass traps--to each his/her own.

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Originally Posted by htpc-geek View Post
I did the double drywall and green glue job between the joists, and while I'm glad I did, it's by far the worst "home improvement" job I've ever done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post
Haha. Yeah. ...The tedious part is sealing all the cracks w acoustic sealant!
I have seen it done in several builds and it does seem like a sore shoulders PITA, but most people that did it don't regret the results (at least they don't post that they do). I just know that when I'm done with the theater, if I don't do it, I will always wonder, "could it have been better?" (Especially. every time dog claws walk across the hardwood floor above.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
I have a hardwood floor above so all the nails are pocking through underneath and I don't really want to spend the time cutting them down. Has anyone had any luck just pushing the drywall up against them....So you what did you fill the gaps in on the sides with, acoustical caulk?
YES!- (See the quote below) and yes you will want to fill the gaps.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by A.T.M. View Post
I originally found your thread by searching "nails through ceiling". You said, I believe on one of the first few pages, [you used a rubber mallet to pound the dry wall up between the joists into the nails that were sticking through from the floorboards above (Pls correct me if I'm wrong)?]

-How did this work? I have a 100+ year old ceiling and the square nails readily poke through from the flooring above.

-Does this technique cause the nails or the flooring above to become loose?--I have enough creaking in my floors

-Were you able to get it snug against the "ceiling" with GG?
Thanks Aaron!

As long as the nails are not at a bunch of different angles, pounding the drywall onto them works just fine. I didn't have to hammer on it, more like knocking something into place with a rubber mallet. It doesn't push the nails back up at all, because it takes very little force to push a sharp nail through drywall, and a lot of force to back a nail out of wood.

I could easily tell if there was a gap still because the screws would either not catch at all or would catch and pull all the way through the drywall. If the drywall is flush to the wood, the screw will not just pull through the drywall unless you overdrive it like crazy. If there is a gap, it will just blow right through the backside of the drywall. If that happened, I hit it a few more times with the mallet.

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Originally Posted by htpc-geek View Post
... just took them out with my angle grinder
It will be a PITA but I think this is what I'll have to do (probably with Liquid Nitrogen spray to keep the heat down so I don't burn the floor above--an ocd and an unlikely needed action, but I really don't want blackened flooring).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post
Anyone have strong feelings regarding using on-ceiling vs in-ceiling mounted speakers for ATMOS? I was planning to use 4 SVS Prime Elevation speakers directed to the MLP.
When atmos 1st came out, people here were just putting up on-ceiling mounted speakers for ATMOS, and liked them. But most current builds, it seems, end up making in-ceiling speaker choices with backer boxes. If you had a ceiling that is 9ft + I think on ceiling speakers would be great. but if you have <8' ceilings, I would use in-ceiling speakers to help create an even more seamless ATMOS image.--Again, I wouldn't want to be done and think, man the image sounds good; BUT, could it be better if the speakers were xx inches farther away from my head? DIY does sound like the way to go for ceiling speakers too. People love the DIY Volts etc for ceiling duty.

I wouldn't finish the front wall with drywall unless someone is going to see it, AND you care what it looks like behind the screen. In the end everything will be covered with insulation and or painted black and the added open insulation may also act as a Bass trap (Baffle wall excluded).

I also like the wider than needed screen concept and am leaning that way myself. I will probably have wide speakers outside of the screen (so L/R will likely be to industry suggested angles), but with a screen that big you can always use masking to make the screen whatever size you want and have some flexibility with speaker placement (as stated above).


FWIW and IMHO

Aaron

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post #79 of 148 Old 11-21-2019, 06:14 PM
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[QUOTE=A.T.M.;58854966]

I wouldn't finish the front wall with drywall unless someone is going to see it, AND you care what it looks like behind the screen. In the end everything will be covered with insulation and or painted black and the added open insulation may also act as a Bass trap (Baffle wall excluded).
Wouldn't having drywall behind the screen help mass needed for soundproofing? Are suggesting to just cover the insulation with black fabric?

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post #80 of 148 Old 11-21-2019, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all - Really appreciate your help working through this with me!

[quote=Ladeback;58855510]
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.T.M. View Post

I wouldn't finish the front wall with drywall unless someone is going to see it, AND you care what it looks like behind the screen. In the end everything will be covered with insulation and or painted black and the added open insulation may also act as a Bass trap (Baffle wall excluded).
Wouldn't having drywall behind the screen help mass needed for soundproofing? Are suggesting to just cover the insulation with black fabric?
Yeah, don't i need a moisture barrier on the inside of my wall (or only if I have drywall)? The drywall is a key part of my soundproofing and not putting it on would allow sound transfer up my front wall to the floor above. I imaging there could be ways to mitigate this, but my plan at present is to continue w the soundproofing.

Is Linacoustic the best acoustic material to use behind the AT screen? Where can I get it?

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post #81 of 148 Old 11-22-2019, 05:10 AM
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I expect Canadian or at least some level of provincial building code will expect drywall and a vapour barrier.
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post #82 of 148 Old 11-22-2019, 06:01 AM
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[quote=Twelton43;58855690]Thanks all - Really appreciate your help working through this with me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post

Yeah, don't i need a moisture barrier on the inside of my wall (or only if I have drywall)? The drywall is a key part of my soundproofing and not putting it on would allow sound transfer up my front wall to the floor above. I imaging there could be ways to mitigate this, but my plan at present is to continue w the soundproofing.

Is Linacoustic the best acoustic material to use behind the AT screen? Where can I get it?
You will need to finish the wall.. Treat it just like any other in your basement..

You can get Linacoustic from a local HVAC supply house. Be prepared to bend over when you go in
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post #83 of 148 Old 11-22-2019, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post
Outstanding questions:

How to hang my AT projector screen. The room length short to build a wall that will include the subs(approx 2'). I really only have 12" to give up on room length...
Twelton43, I had a similar concern. I wanted an AT screen to properly place my main LCR behind, and I also wanted to keep the subs and equipment out of sight on the front wall. The problem was I didn't want to give up much depth in my room because I wanted to have 2 rows and it was already tight, and I still wanted to keep a longer viewing distance to the front row.

What I decided to do (and I haven't finalized this yet, but I'm all-in on using some form of this construction) was to build a stepped false wall. The bottom 2-3 feet will come out to have 24" of clearance behind to accommodate subs and equipment. Then there will be a lip or tabletop surface where the wall transitions to the top half, which will only be 12" deep to fit my main speakers. Does that make sense?
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post #84 of 148 Old 11-22-2019, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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It makes complete sense to me and is exactly what I’ve been thinking.

My challenge has been trying to figure out what my future sub dimensions will be so I can build a wall/step that will fit future (full “Marty” or other large DIY subs). I suppose some light modifications to the sub portion would be easy enough. The key will be build the sub component somewhat independent.

Are you thinking of framing w 2x4 or smaller dimensional lumber?


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post #85 of 148 Old 11-22-2019, 07:42 PM
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[quote=Ladeback;58855510]
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.T.M. View Post
Wouldn't having drywall behind the screen help mass needed for soundproofing? Are suggesting to just cover the insulation with black fabric?
The external wall with drywall sure would help add mass and help with soundproofing
Again sorry for the confusion, you're right, don't just cover the external wall with black fabric; bass trapping in the front corners above subs is done inside the external wall's drywall. It must have sounded as though I was speaking out of my lower quivering cheeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post

Yeah, don't i need a moisture barrier on the inside of my wall (or only if I have drywall)? The drywall is a key part of my soundproofing and not putting it on would allow sound transfer up my front wall to the floor above. I imaging there could be ways to mitigate this, but my plan at present is to continue w the soundproofing.

Is Linacoustic the best acoustic material to use behind the AT screen? Where can I get it?
Sorry for the confusion, Yes finish the outside wall with drywall for soundproofing of course, but no need for dry wall (baffle wall) on the inside where the speakers are- unless you want one.

If you can't find Linacoustics duct liner through your local HVAC company then:
Here is the most recent source I've seen for Linacoustics 1" on weavinator's thread
----------------
Quote: POST #64 on The Dawkness Theater

"Look what just arrived! $275 shipped to my door. Delivery took 7 days.

Linacoustic RC 1", 4' x 50'. This is going in my ventilation baffle boxes and the usual front wall treatment. Like many members on AVS I had a hard time finding it locally or online for a decent price. I finally stumbled on Baker." (Baker Distributing Company= [Bakerdist.com])

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2860b84c49.jpg "
------------------

It did make me think of a couple of questions though, do most put insulation between the speakers and the areas between the speakers and the drywall or just leave it open and let the wrap around reflections hit the Linacoustics on top of the Drywall?

What is the consensus on Linacoustics on front wall now a days (1" plastic 1" or 2" or 2" plastic 2")? It's been a while since I read those threads.

Do people still put a black Sound transparent fabric behind DIY screens to help with Blacks/ contrast?

Thanks

Aaron

All ya need is love, and Hi Fi sound.
Asthetix, Audreal, Arcam FMJ, Musical Fidelity, Harmonix, Marantz, Tannoy, MIT, PS3, Panasonic, OPPO

Last edited by A.T.M.; 11-22-2019 at 07:47 PM.
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post #86 of 148 Old 11-22-2019, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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+1

Great question.

I’m looking for Linacoustic at the moment myself. I have asked my HVAC installer to source it. We’ll see.

Good to know about Baker. I am 10 minutes from the US border so pretty easy for me to access US products.

My HT materials are starting to arrive! I have attached photos of the sconces and carpet that we have chosen. Click image for larger version

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post #87 of 148 Old 11-23-2019, 09:20 AM
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I like the carpet
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post #88 of 148 Old 11-24-2019, 11:14 AM
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Any plan to paint those sconces?

I have a feeling they will become very distracting when watching a movie as the light bounces off of them into your peripheral vision..

Maybe a matte clear would help.. also make sure they don't rattle when the bass hits..
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post #89 of 148 Old 11-24-2019, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Any plan to paint those sconces?

Definitely not. They are really expensive. It&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s a good point though. I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;m going to have to think about how close they are to the screen.

Edit - If they are a problem I’ll paint them! Looking at photos of theatres and there are lots with similar lighting plans and styles. Hopefully won’t be an issue. Bass rattles annoy me to no end...


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post #90 of 148 Old 11-27-2019, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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If you went 150" 2.39:1 you can still have your 120" 16:9 screen within that screen.
I am revisiting the concept of having a larger AT screen (covering the vast majority of the wall, including my front left and right speakers. I am now considering reducing my spend on other aspects of the project (carpet, seating and screen) in order to replace my projector so I can get one with lens memory and hopefully enough lumens to cover a 150" 2.39:1 screen. I have wife approval, but I'm having a hard time finding a projector that meets my needs (lumens and lens memory) unless I go to a pixel shifter. I am going to post in the projector section, but if anyone has any suggestions for me I'm all ears.

I am also considering a DIY spandex screen to save the $$ for a new projector (as previously referenced) and bluray player. I have no knowledge of the quality of screens made from spandex. I am confident I can build one with the right materials though. Any recommendations here would also be appreciated!

My build progress is slowing down a bit intentionally so I have the time to make these critically important decisions!!
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