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post #121 of 241 Old 12-04-2019, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post
No problem!

So latest dilemma... first a bit about me... I’m an optimizer. For me, I tend to obsess over the next step to optimal audio/video nirvana. It drives me nuts knowing there is a better way to do something, particularly a way that will unlock the full potential!

So, knowing that black letter box represents wasted pixels that could be unleashed with an anamorphic lens... wow. I’m going to be twitch in my main listening position. So, go get an a-lens! Not so easy... I have learned that I just BARELY have the throw distance (14’6”, I have 14’4” with present design) for a 140” (2.39:1) screen and the lens will likely require a throw distance of ~15’.

The projector must sit 8” off the rear wall (wife won’t let me use the cabinetry behind). The projector itself is 20” long. So it comes down to my screen wall and how far off the main wall I install it. I had accounted for 12” (which includes the framing - hopefully it can be built w 1 x 2 lumber). That would leave a 10” space for speakers.

My current Totem on wall speakers are 4” deep, so I think I could move the wall back 4”. I’m also thinking of minimally insulating and avoiding the clips and double drywall on three of the 2 x 4 stud bays on the front wall to create large recessed pockets for LCR placement. I figure I can gain back another 3” this way as well. I could also create a similar recessed pocket (would require some framing) at the rear of the projector to gain 3” (one layer of drywall between the cabinetry and the pocket. So a total of 10”... very close.


Or I could simply go with a smaller screen... BAH. Too easy!

Another wrinkle is Id like to build DIY speakers (1099s) and I think they are 12” deep).

What is the rule of thumb related to speaker clearance behind an AT screen?


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Aren't wife's fun. Luckily my wife has said the basement is pretty much mine to do what I want, but having enough cash to do it is the problem.

Have you thought of using something like the Epson 5050 or 6050. At 14'-4" you could have a 138" 2.39:1 screen. If you could do 14'-6" you could get the 140" 2.39:1 screen.

The 1099's are 14.5" deep by the way. I have looked at them as well. Have you looked at the HTM-10 or 12? They are both less then 10" deep and I have read they put out great sound as well.

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post #122 of 241 Old 12-04-2019, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah. I certainly can’t complain. My wife has been pretty good to me. In a relatively small house I was able to get a dedicated theater room. Couldn’t believe she was “OK” with me buying the NX7. I did hear yesterday though...” no more spending money on the theater room”! We’ll see....

I looked at the Epsons very closely. The throw distance is essentially exactly the same as the NX7. At 14’6” I can get a 140” diagonal screen.

I dislike compromising... but at some point I will likely have to go w a smaller screen in order to get DIY speakers behind. You are correct re the 1099s... 14 1/2”...

UNLESS I mount my screen on the wall and speakers to the side and below. Then I can do whatever I like.

I think this theater will likely have several phases. I’m ok w that.

Anyone know how much the gap between the speaker woofer and the AT screen material needs to be?


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post #123 of 241 Old 12-04-2019, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
So, knowing that black letter box represents wasted pixels that could be unleashed with an anamorphic lens... wow. I’m going to be twitch in my main listening position. So, go get an a-lens! Not so easy... I have learned that I just BARELY have the throw distance (14’6”, I have 14’4” with present design) for a 140” (2.39:1) screen and the lens will likely require a throw distance of ~15’.
I highly doubt you are going to notice those "wasted pixels" at your seating distance and IMO the price of an A-lens doesn't seem worth it.. One thing I noticed when going from the 5050UB to the RS2000 is that I no longer see the black bars when zoomed in.. The JVC really does a good job and hiding them and making them as black and black can be.



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The projector must sit 8” off the rear wall (wife won’t let me use the cabinetry behind). The projector itself is 20” long. So it comes down to my screen wall and how far off the main wall I install it. I had accounted for 12” (which includes the framing - hopefully it can be built w 1 x 2 lumber). That would leave a 10” space for speakers.
Creating a niche in that back wall will gain you a few inches and with some forced cooling you can probably reduce that 8" clearance to 4" (that is what I did with two AC Infinity fans) and I have no heat hazing. So you might be able to gain another 6" if needed..

You can frame it with 2x4 turned on the 1.5" side or frame it normal and leave openings for the speakers. Go checked out the AT Build https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...thread-30.html which MMan has done some drawings for which will be similar to what you will be doing.



Quote:
My current Totem on wall speakers are 4” deep, so I think I could move the wall back 4”. I’m also thinking of minimally insulating and avoiding the clips and double drywall on three of the 2 x 4 stud bays on the front wall to create large recessed pockets for LCR placement. I figure I can gain back another 3” this way as well. I could also create a similar recessed pocket (would require some framing) at the rear of the projector to gain 3” (one layer of drywall between the cabinetry and the pocket. So a total of 10”... very close.
You can get rather tricky with framing for that back wall.. creating recesses just like one would do for a shower niche would be beneficial.. That is what I did for all my surroundings so I can have thinner columns.



Quote:
Another wrinkle is Id like to build DIY speakers (1099s) and I think they are 12” deep).
HTM's are probably a better choice for your room. did you reach out to Erich from DIYSG?



Quote:
What is the rule of thumb related to speaker clearance behind an AT screen?
I heard 2-3" from face of speaker to back of screen will work. I have 3" and I've never seen the screen move even at ear peircing/ground shaking reference levels..

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post #124 of 241 Old 12-04-2019, 08:46 AM
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When calculating how much space you need behind the screen don't forget to account for any sound absorption if you plan on using it.

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post #125 of 241 Old 12-04-2019, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreciseD View Post
I highly doubt you are going to notice those "wasted pixels" at your seating distance and IMO the price of an A-lens doesn't seem worth it.. One thing I noticed when going from the 5050UB to the RS2000 is that I no longer see the black bars when zoomed in.. The JVC really does a good job and hiding them and making them as black and black can be.

Creating a niche in that back wall will gain you a few inches and with some forced cooling you can probably reduce that 8" clearance to 4" (that is what I did with two AC Infinity fans) and I have no heat hazing. So you might be able to gain another 6" if needed..

You can frame it with 2x4 turned on the 1.5" side or frame it normal and leave openings for the speakers. Go checked out the AT Build https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...thread-30.html which MMan has done some drawings for which will be similar to what you will be doing.

You can get rather tricky with framing for that back wall.. creating recesses just like one would do for a shower niche would be beneficial.. That is what I did for all my surroundings so I can have thinner columns.

HTM's are probably a better choice for your room. did you reach out to Erich from DIYSG?


I heard 2-3" is fine which is what I have.
Yeah. Good points. I need to save some budget for sound (which is a real passion of mine). I am not going to go the full DIY route until Phase 2. Need to learn how my room performs before making decisions on speakers. I am going to build in those "shower niches" as you suggest for the LCR speakers and the projector. I need to consider this for future sides and rear speakers (dont want to compromise soundproofing on my interior wall though). I do want to add columns in Phase 3.

I havent talked to Erich yet. I actually emailed him a few weeks ago, but no response.

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When calculating how much space you need behind the screen don't forget to account for any sound absorption if you plan on using it.
Good point. Can anyone provide some commentary on the benefits of soundproofing behind the screen? Does this function as a bass trap? How much insulation would I need?

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post #126 of 241 Old 12-04-2019, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post

Good point. Can anyone provide some commentary on the benefits of soundproofing behind the screen? Does this function as a bass trap? How much insulation would I need?
The goto is applying 2" linacoustic over the drywall to keep reflections at bay.

I ran my speakers before I procured the linacoustic and it made a noticeable difference in the sound quality and eliminated the "reverb" I was getting from the sound bouncing off the screen and being reflected back via the drywall..
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post #127 of 241 Old 12-05-2019, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PreciseD View Post
The goto is applying 2" linacoustic over the drywall to keep reflections at bay.

I ran my speakers before I procured the linacoustic and it made a noticeable difference in the sound quality and eliminated the "reverb" I was getting from the sound bouncing off the screen and being reflected back via the drywall..

Ah, now there is a good reason. Linacoustic is black too which is nice. I’ve heard that some people use regular insulation as well.

Now to source linacoustic locally. Does it go by any other names?



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post #128 of 241 Old 12-05-2019, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post
Ah, now there is a good reason. Linacoustic is black too which is nice. I’ve heard that some people use regular insulation as well.

Now to source linacoustic locally. Does it go by any other names?



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Contact your local HVAC supply house and ask for "Duct Liner".. There are many names it goes by, but you want the fabric lined stuff as to keep the fibers from flying through the air when the speakers are making some waves...

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post #129 of 241 Old 12-05-2019, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I’m obsessing a bit over the HVAC. I don’t want to make a mistake here.

I went down to the basement this evening and saw 5 ducts that are going to cross over the ceiling of the theater room. 3 that go up to the kitchen upstairs and 2 that go into the theater room itself. All 5 will be lined with acoustic material.

I deeply hope that this will be sufficient, but wondering if I can do anything more? Can I line the exterior of the ductwork as well? Should I add a silencer to ducts on the other side of the main supply (in the adjacent room and to the upstairs)?


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post #130 of 241 Old 12-05-2019, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post
I’m obsessing a bit over the HVAC. I don’t want to make a mistake here.

I went down to the basement this evening and saw 5 ducts that are going to cross over the ceiling of the theater room. 3 that go up to the kitchen upstairs and 2 that go into the theater room itself. All 5 will be lined with acoustic material.

I deeply hope that this will be sufficient, but wondering if I can do anything more? Can I line the exterior of the ductwork as well? Should I add a silencer to ducts on the other side of the main supply (in the adjacent room and to the upstairs)?


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Are these metal ducts?

If so you can do a couple of things.

1) re-run with flex duct
2) cover with duct liner
3) asphalt mat them (better know as Ice and water shield for roofs)
4) both 2 and 3 if it is metal duct work. 3 comes first and then cover with 2.

Sometimes we have to deal with situations that are just unavoidable unless we just through tons of money at the problem. What is the problem worth?

I'm sorry for the downer post.

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post #131 of 241 Old 12-05-2019, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Not a downer post at all. I’m ok dealing in reality

This is the stuff they plan to use:



I don’t think its the right stuff for noise silencing though. This seems more appropriate:

https://www.thermaflex.net/products/...flexible-duct/

I guess the key aspect is the flexible ducting really dampens sound transfer provided there are sufficient bends?




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post #132 of 241 Old 12-06-2019, 05:09 AM
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I would be worried too.. you are going through all this effort to dampen sound transfer with decoupling and mass only to allow sound to freely flow from the registers in the theater room to the rest of the home..

Have you seen how many feet of pipe and bends people use with blowers and custom boxes all to get it to "work"? I don't think you have that kind of room unless you could hide it all behind your screen..

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post #133 of 241 Old 12-06-2019, 07:34 AM
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I replaced the few lines that went through my theatre with flex duct, and tried to add a few soft bends where I could. The couple of hard pipes that I didn't replace are on outside walls and will be encased in insulation and covered by DDGG walls/ceiling of the room. Those don't open into the room, they just pass by.

I added Dynamat (basically the more expensive name-brand asphalt mat that @Lynkage suggested above) patches to help cut down vibration and resonance on the lengths of hard pipe, and completely covered the exposed lower box of the return register for the dining room above. This will also get insulation and be behind the DDGG wall (see pics).

I know it isn't ideal, but I'm sure it is better than nothing, and I just didn't have the room to create a huge dead vent or baffle. Do what you can, combine and stack methods, and hopefully you can minimize the impact.
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post #134 of 241 Old 12-06-2019, 08:10 AM
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As stated above, I think you will be just fine! That is at least some insulation around your duct.

As PreciseD said you can make some duct mufflers on the theater side if, you have the room.

Last edited by Lynkage; 12-06-2019 at 08:18 AM.
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post #135 of 241 Old 12-06-2019, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
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Ah, now there is a good reason. Linacoustic is black too which is nice. I’ve heard that some people use regular insulation as well.

Now to source linacoustic locally. Does it go by any other names?



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I used R15 rock wool insulation (3.5" thick) and covered it with black landscape fabric. Easy and inexpensive and really deadens the front wall. I also used the rock wool in the front wall corners as bass traps.
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Thanks all!

I talked to the HVAC guys this morning and they advised they plan to install solid ducts lined with 1” linacoustic material. They are using 10’ lengths.

So I guess I can insulate the outside of these ducts as well.

Would flex duct be better than this lined ducting? I’m thinking of asking them to line the main truck that receives these runs from the theater room too.


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post #137 of 241 Old 12-06-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
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I used R15 rock wool insulation (3.5" thick) and covered it with black landscape fabric. Easy and inexpensive and really deadens the front wall. I also used the rock wool in the front wall corners as bass traps.
Keep an eye on that rockwool and make sure it doesn't fall apart like mine did.. I opened up my ceiling that I insulated with safe and sound about 2 years ago and all of the rockwool was crumbling apart and no longer held it's shape...
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Keep an eye on that rockwool and make sure it doesn't fall apart like mine did.. I opened up my ceiling that I insulated with safe and sound about 2 years ago and all of the rockwool was crumbling apart and no longer held it's shape...

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post #139 of 241 Old 12-06-2019, 01:16 PM
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Seriously, I had to bag it all up and through it away.. Such a waste of money..

I have it in my garage too (no drywall on the ceiling yet) and it is starting to come down... grit is all over my work bench and table saw..
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Seriously, I had to bag it all up and through it away.. Such a waste of money..

I have it in my garage too (no drywall on the ceiling yet) and it is starting to come down... grit is all over my work bench and table saw..
Wow that's unfortunate! I only used it in a few places but this is the first I have heard of it disintegrating.

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Wow that's unfortunate! I only used it in a few places but this is the first I have heard of it disintegrating.
I guess most people don't open up walls/ceilings after 2 years to re configure their spaces like I did...

I have 2 more sheets to pull down and I will take some pics of how it lost its shape and is falling apart.
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Originally Posted by Twelton43 View Post
Thanks all!

I talked to the HVAC guys this morning and they advised they plan to install solid ducts lined with 1” linacoustic material. They are using 10’ lengths.

So I guess I can insulate the outside of these ducts as well.

Would flex duct be better than this lined ducting? I’m thinking of asking them to line the main truck that receives these runs from the theater room too.


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I personally feel that you should get them to use flex duct. It will not resonate like the metal duct will, and it will not involve the extra work of covering it all with ice and water shield (which can be difficult to work with). Lining the main trunk is a good idea as well.
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post #143 of 241 Old 12-07-2019, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreciseD View Post
Keep an eye on that rockwool and make sure it doesn't fall apart like mine did.. I opened up my ceiling that I insulated with safe and sound about 2 years ago and all of the rockwool was crumbling apart and no longer held it's shape...
It's been a 18+ months and still holding together fine. Sounds like you got a bad batch.
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Thanks all!

I talked to the HVAC guys this morning and they advised they plan to install solid ducts lined with 1” linacoustic material. They are using 10’ lengths.

So I guess I can insulate the outside of these ducts as well.

Would flex duct be better than this lined ducting? I’m thinking of asking them to line the main truck that receives these runs from the theater room too.
I have 3 supply ducts running over my theater that feed the upstairs. I have 1 large supply duct for the theater and 3 smaller return ducts that add up to match the supply (for a total of 4 HVAC penetrations into the theater). For the theater HVAC penetrations, they all go through large MDF/GG/Drywall silencers in the joists that will seal to the theater's DD ceiling. All of the theater HVAC starts out as metal at the furnace, and once it crosses over the theater wall in the ceiling, I transition to flex duct, such that the last 10-15' of each run is flex.

I did not do silencers for any ducts that do not run into/out of the theater. I had to re-route some of them to clear space for the joist silencers, and the runs were too long to use flex the whole way without having a pretty big drop in flow. The air flow will get affected if you swap all metal to all flex on long runs (over 10'). So I have some metal duct running over the theater that transitions to flex in the last 10' or so before it connects to the upstairs duct. For any of the metal that's running over the theater, I wrapped it in butyl (search amazon for: 80 mil Sound Deadening Mat Butyl).

I also wrapped the back side of the metal duct registers that feed the floor above:

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Here are 2 examples of where I ran metal, then switched to flex. In the first pic, you can see two flex ducts that go into silencers to enter the room, and 2 flex ducts that go into silencers before entering the room. In the second pic there is a long metal run over the room that transitions to flex for the last 10 feet.

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NOTE: my room is not done, so I can't speak to the effectiveness of any of it. 😂
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Nokomis Theater build thread (was Blue Room Theater)
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post #145 of 241 Old 12-07-2019, 11:03 AM
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that duct at the very top looks constricted?
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post #146 of 241 Old 12-07-2019, 04:11 PM
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that duct at the very top looks constricted?
I thought that too when I first installed it, but the flex inside is not constricted at all. It's just the insulation that's compressed. The bigger 10" flex duct with more insulation makes it look more compressed than it is. There is also 3/4 MDF + 5/8" drywall that's not installed on the bottom side yet.
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Nokomis Theater build thread (was Blue Room Theater)
Denon AVR-X4300H, Vizio P65, TiVo Bolt, Apple TV 4K, PS4 Pro, Plex
Speakers: R/L: Focal Aria 936, C: GoldenEar SuperSat 60C, S: Def Tech ProMonitor 1000's, Sub: JL Audio E112
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I thought that too when I first installed it, but the flex inside is not constricted at all. It's just the insulation that's compressed. The bigger 10" flex duct with more insulation makes it look more compressed than it is. There is also 3/4 MDF + 5/8" drywall that's not installed on the bottom side yet.


Thanks for the post. Really helpful!

Can you say more about the silencer boxes you built? Or point me to a reference?


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Thanks for the post. Really helpful!

Can you say more about the silencer boxes you built? Or point me to a reference?
Sure! All of my HVAC work is covered on page 2 of my build thread, starting with this post.

Nokomis Theater build thread (was Blue Room Theater)
Denon AVR-X4300H, Vizio P65, TiVo Bolt, Apple TV 4K, PS4 Pro, Plex
Speakers: R/L: Focal Aria 936, C: GoldenEar SuperSat 60C, S: Def Tech ProMonitor 1000's, Sub: JL Audio E112
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Well. HVAC work is now done. I am confident to will be sufficient for my purposes. Square ducting lined with linacoustic (10’) for vents into theater and flex ducting on the other side of the main trunk. I’m now going to insulate the outside of the main trunk.

I picked up my new projector yesterday (JVC NX7). Wow is it ever big... Ordering the mount today. Ordered my spandex fabric. Thanks to MississipiMan for the instructions and design for a 140” screen!

Pulled my conduit for LCR speaker wire last night. Finally started the fun part of the build!

I included a photo below that shows a 10 long sheet of drywall against the front wall. Essentially this drywall board is the same width as my screen. My plan is to have my front left and right speakers at the far edges of the screen (so behind the screen material). I could put them outside of the screen, but I’m concerned they would be too close to the wall and the first point of deflection would be quite close.




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post #150 of 241 Old 12-12-2019, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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A question I have is regarding HDMI cables...

I have been using Audioquest Pearl cables to date and they seem to have served me well. I now have a pretty short run from my media cabinet to the projector so was planning to buy a new, shorter HDMI cable. I was looking at upgrading this cable, but it struck me that there is no point in going above the Pearl for the run to the projector unless I upgrade my cables to the AVR...

There seems to be several schools of thought on HDMI cables... waste of $$ vs worth the $$.

I have come this far, I don’t want my picture quality compromised by a silly cable!

Opinions please!
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