Is soundproofing 160db of bass possible? - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 243 Old 01-21-2020, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Boilermaker744 View Post
IF IT FLEXES AT ALL, IT WILL EVENTUALLY COME DOWN. It may not be all at once, but chucks/pieces will "peel" off.
Ok, so I'll spray it with bedliner

Fun part starts at the 10 minute mark:
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post #122 of 243 Old 01-25-2020, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I bought two 12v 8" Noctua fans. Should be here Monday-ish.

That will do 180CFM @ 18db, and 120CFM @ 10db; and that is in-room too!
While also consuming less than 2 watts added together. Which is crazy...
I'm trying to be both green and quiet here.

I've never used Noctua so I have no idea how loud these actually are.

In a muffle box it should be like no db's.
and if I need it... I can buy another 2-4 of them to double or quadruple the air flow.

As mentioned my current HT has no air flow at-all, so literally any amount of air would be a major improvement. LOL!

I'm still in the very early research and test phase here, so nothing is set in stone.
Just trying and experimenting with different products to see what works, and what doesn't...
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post #123 of 243 Old 01-25-2020, 10:45 AM
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Maybe some of these in line with your air ducting?


https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F324040142327

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post #124 of 243 Old 01-25-2020, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I bought two 12v 8" Noctua fans. Should be here Monday-ish.

That will do 180CFM @ 18db, and 120CFM @ 10db; and that is in-room too!
While also consuming less than 2 watts added together. Which is crazy...
I'm trying to be both green and quiet here.

I've never used Noctua so I have no idea how loud these actually are.

In a muffle box it should be like no db's.
and if I need it... I can buy another 2-4 of them to double or quadruple the air flow.

As mentioned my current HT has no air flow at-all, so literally any amount of air would be a major improvement. LOL!

I'm still in the very early research and test phase here, so nothing is set in stone.
Just trying and experimenting with different products to see what works, and what doesn't...
I've used Noctua fans in various IT equipment (1U switches mostly) to quiet it down for home use. Noise control usually isn't high on the list of features for rackmount IT equipment - some switches and firewalls have screamingly loud fans since a 1U chassis typically means a small 30mm fan. Those small diameter fans turn really high RPM in order to move enough air, and more RPM means more noise. Larger fans can run more reasonable RPM levels and be nearly inaudible unless you're right on top of them.

I haven't used any Noctuas in a ducting application. Will be interesting to see what results you get. When you get them in hand you'll see they are a premium product with several design features to maximize performance at low noise level. Haven't used any of the large ones, but small ones in standard "computer" sizes come with rubber standoff mounts to keep any fan vibrations from exciting the surface the fan is mounted to.

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post #125 of 243 Old 01-25-2020, 02:04 PM
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Maybe there is a simpler solution. Since you are noticing the above ground open air sound, what about redesigning the yard to have more shrubbery with thick ground level foliage. Or some low hills/moguls that might redirect sound.

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post #126 of 243 Old 01-25-2020, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Your not thinking simple enough with the doors. You need a heavy duty “Pivot Hinge System”. I will link you to the best ones I’ve found for my room that will be using a 1’ thick door to hang hundreds of pounds of treatments if I end up using solid wood. These types of hinges will allow total isolation around the perimeter and will only require very low forces to open/close the doors.


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Check our Rixson pivot hinges.
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post #127 of 243 Old 01-25-2020, 05:22 PM
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I actually don't think you need to go too insane to get most of what you're looking for.

Concrete poured in cinder block wall construction is actually relatively inexpensive (compared to some of the stuff talked about). You don't need a lot of steel reinforcement. That makes the structure stronger, not stiffer. A little rebar here will go a long way.

Ceiling should be poured concrete. Easiest way to accomplish that in a largish sized room is going to be a metal form lowered into place then poured. Like is commonly done for below grade garage ceilings and such.

Now repeat. Leave an air gap of a foot or so, and construct another poured concrete block filled wall and ceiling structure around the inner to get your room within a room. If you want to get fancy, have a perimeter foundation poured with a gap between that and the inner room foundation so you retain pretty good isolation between inner and outer walls. I think a foot airspace will allow foundation footings to be separate, perhaps that would have to go a little wider to make sure.

For air exchange, duct mufflers really work. Like everything else, it's a matter of scale. If wood and sheetrock room in a room works for most people but you need concrete room in a room, then likewise if wood framed duct mufflers a dozen feet long works for most people you may need a concrete block filled chase dozens of feet long with enough porous absorption inside to make a big dent in bass energy. You could serpentine along one inner wall to reduce energy before making the connection to outer wall and continuing to dampen energy.

A couple of separated sealed heavy doors and you've got a pretty good bass containment structure. It won't be perfect, but you don't need to go from 160dB to 0dB. Just reduce the rumble enough to be audible but not annoying.
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post #128 of 243 Old 01-26-2020, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
I actually don't think you need to go too insane to get most of what you're looking for.

Concrete poured in cinder block wall construction is actually relatively inexpensive (compared to some of the stuff talked about). You don't need a lot of steel reinforcement. That makes the structure stronger, not stiffer. A little rebar here will go a long way.

...
To his point, Jet engine and large engine test cells always seem to be concrete block walls. At least at all the engine companies I have worked at (five?). The exception of course are the engine stands in the absolute middle of nowhere, but we have already established that isn't an option.

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post #129 of 243 Old 01-26-2020, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
As far as vibrational energy goes... basically the formula is: lots of mass, suspended by a low force spring.

This applies to the mechanically transmitted vibrations, but doesn't help you with the bigger issue - the air spring, which has an enormous cross sectional area (spring stiffness is proportional to area), IOW acoustic xmission.


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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Having multiple inter-connected spring systems is actually worse because now you have multiple resonant frequencies; which have maximum transmissibility; which is a bad thing...

If they're single-degree-of-freedom systems (one resonant freq) w/widely spaced resonant freq, they'll block each other's resonances.

You could nip a good part of the problem in the bud if the subs were closer to the listeners, allowing them to operate at much reduced level.

Have you considered subs contained in all of the seating?

That would give you tactile as well (forget if you already have it).

As for air, have you seen the apple stores w/green walls of plants?

I just heard on some program that one good sized plant will clean the air for a 100 sq ft area.

Noah

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post #130 of 243 Old 01-27-2020, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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It has arrived. It's the 20 FLX which has the flat voltage 3-pin input, iso-pads and low-noise adapter.
The 4pin PWM would be the wrong model to buy for this application...


XBox for size-reference comparison. She's a big fan as far as PC's go!

Now I just need to get unlazy and reassemble my old computer that the 12V PSU rails of sufficient current,
my HTPC is ultra-low power and can't handle the draw (or I don't want to find out that it can't and damage the mb.)

Then I will know how loud or quiet it actually is in-person.
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post #131 of 243 Old 01-27-2020, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Maybe some of these in line with your air ducting?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F324040142327
I told myself no metal duct work. I don't want even the slightest chance of rattles from ducts. It's gotta be plywood or concrete (or a mix of both.)
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post #132 of 243 Old 01-27-2020, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hooligan2020 View Post
Maybe there is a simpler solution. Since you are noticing the above ground open air sound, what about redesigning the yard to have more shrubbery with thick ground level foliage. Or some low hills/moguls that might redirect sound.
My current HT already has 16ft hedges that are 4ft thick, they stop nothing... the bass goes through it like x-rays.
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post #133 of 243 Old 01-27-2020, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I got it hooked up. Both modes are more-than acceptable, if I was running 4 or 8 of these I'd definitely use the 10db mode (I think).

Hard to judge SPL from a video but the 10db mode is quieter than the rotational HDD's in the computer that is powering this in-person (even thought you wouldn't be able to tell from the vid...)
I'd say these probably are 10db, exactly as claimed. Nearly inaudible from even 2ft away in-room.


In any case, I'll be mounting them in a highly accessible/replaceable location, and probably use some sort of basic 200mm PC dust catcher for it to increase its lifespan (or not quicken it, LOL!)
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post #134 of 243 Old 01-27-2020, 09:57 PM
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You are going to need this room to contain your screams after the Tinnitus sets in. Trust me.
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post #135 of 243 Old 01-27-2020, 10:45 PM
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Most 4-pin PWM fans will run off of a 3-pin header anyway... if the PWM pin (4) is left floating, the fan should run 100%. But if you're paying more for the 4-pin model vs. the 3-pin in such an application, that's money wasted.

I'm betting those fans would be inaudible at full speed if you're installing them as inline duct fans. I wonder how well they would do with the static pressure of a long duct run, though. Interested to see what you get!

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post #136 of 243 Old 01-28-2020, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Ok, I got it hooked up. Both modes are more-than acceptable, if I was running 4 or 8 of these I'd definitely use the 10db mode (I think).

Hard to judge SPL from a video but the 10db mode is quieter than the rotational HDD's in the computer that is powering this in-person (even thought you wouldn't be able to tell from the vid...)
I'd say these probably are 10db, exactly as claimed. Nearly inaudible from even 2ft away in-room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnjAz3MB1lc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evqhWFVaJqg

In any case, I'll be mounting them in a highly accessible/replaceable location, and probably use some sort of basic 200mm PC dust catcher for it to increase its lifespan (or not quicken it, LOL!)
I dunno I feel like you are just throwing money at things, I think you need a professional to help you.

Those fans you bought are not going to have jack **** static pressure, they will not work for ducting. Money wasted.

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post #137 of 243 Old 01-28-2020, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Most HVACs are sized for cooling and heat delivery through 100-400ft of ductwork with thick air filters, heat exchangers, rate dampers, multiple branches with multiple vents, with capacity sufficient for an entire house.

None of that is required here.

Mine will be sized for oxygen delivery for one directly-attached room.

Dedicated independent fans for both the supply and exhaust, with dedicated independent straight runs for each.
The majority of the length will actually be the muffle boxes, which is also the ONLY source of 90 degree turns.

If I can exchange the entire room once per hour that should be sufficient to maintain life, and basic comfort.
I figure I need about ~60cfm of supply and ~60cfm of exhaust, actually-delivered.

The muffle boxes will need to be built and tested well before the room is, to ensure it can actually deliver the desired flowrate quietly.
[and with the desired amount of bass attenuation, if that's even possible to achieve...]

If anything is gonna leak sound it will be the ducts. The air is free to flow and resonant. It's by-far the weakest link in the chain.

Worst-case:
I fill the muffle boxes in with sand and no air or sound gets in or out of the room.
0 CFM, and I just have to walk-it-off, like I do now...
I'd rather have fresh air... but if the bass is massively escaping, then a basshead's gotta do what a bassheads gotta do.
Make sure your seat belts are fastened, tray tables are in their fully upright position, and O2 masks are securely adorned.
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post #138 of 243 Old 01-28-2020, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pultzar View Post
You are going to need this room to contain your screams after the Tinnitus sets in. Trust me.

Tru dat, Gonna be reading lips like Ansel Elgort at the end of Baby Driver.
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post #139 of 243 Old 01-29-2020, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
If I can exchange the entire room once per hour that should be sufficient to maintain life, and basic comfort.
My theatre designer specified six air exchanges per hour. You may want to rethink once per hour.

Cheers,
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post #140 of 243 Old 01-29-2020, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Make sure your seat belts are fastened, tray tables are in their fully upright position, and O2 masks are securely adorned.
You forgot "babies and small children in the overhead lockers" !

Cheers,
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post #141 of 243 Old 01-30-2020, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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My theatre designer specified six air exchanges per hour. You may want to rethink once per hour.

Cheers,
I'm used to suffocating... At my place of work, "the box" is also 0cfm; and that air space is about 10x10x8.

First it starts as a light headache, with a hot suffocating feel.
If you continue to ignore those signs, then the headache becomes severe and you start getting tired.
Then the headache becomes intolerably painful and you are running for the exit at this point. Your body is screaming get-air, it's hard to ignore it actually.
But ignoring that too, then eventually you'll nod out, forever...

In that 10x10x8 space, the longest I've gone is about 3 hours. With the average being around 1 hour.
My current HT is 18x23x8 and the longest I've gone is 12 hours in that (by that point you are hungry and needing a bathroom).
I don't think longer durations in a 0cfm enviro would be advisable at all, that's about the-limit IMO.

HT v2 will be slightly larger, and 90% of the time it will be just me in there.
More exchanges would be better for-sure, every x-minutes etc... so long as the air velocity and fan noise isn't too-excessive.
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post #142 of 243 Old 01-30-2020, 08:47 PM
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Air velocity at the diffuser was spec'd at max 1.2 m/s.

Cheers,
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post #143 of 243 Old 01-30-2020, 08:49 PM
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Standing under my HVAC outlets is quite strange - you can feel significant air movement - but there is no, and I mean NO noise !

Cheers,
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post #144 of 243 Old 01-31-2020, 02:53 PM
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I wasn't going to comment anymore, but I have to. Lol. The one chap suggested a concrete block filled room in a room. Now, you're just wasting money. There is no need for that if you used a single 12" thick poured room, WITH STEEL, rebar, fiber reinforced concrete. The only issues I see is your HVAC. That being bringing in fresh air and not allowing the bass to exit through there.

I honestly don't think anyone here understands what 160DB feels like. LOL. Or what it does to materials. Someone brought up jet engines. Well, how loud is a jet engine? Around 140-145 DB. Now, how about a 12 guage shotgun? 150DB. To double the loudness, or DB, you increase the db by 3. Meaning 153DB is now TWICE as loud as 150DB and so on.

As for spraying everything with that bedliner, LOL. Ok, but if the bass breaks whatever it's attached to, then you're gonna have one big sheet flapping in the breeze, and it'll rip also.
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post #145 of 243 Old 01-31-2020, 03:35 PM
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Adobe stops sound dead. Look into a rammed earth structure, the wall thickness is usually 24" of highly compacted dirt and almost as hard as concrete. Rammed earth homes have been built around Tucson since the early 1980's. Back in the turn of the century adobe homes also used dirt on top the ceiling, you could probably do the same thing with a living/green roof.

You will need to see rammed earth construction in person in order to decide if this is for you, Tucson is beautiful in the spring, which starts Feb. 15th. Because of the perfectly timed winter rains the wildflower blooms will be outrageous this year.

Since sound can escape the smallest hole, weatherstripping is important. I exclusively use weatherstripping from Conservation Technology
http://www.conservationtechnology.com/
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post #146 of 243 Old 01-31-2020, 03:56 PM
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While in Tucson you can also visit the Titan Missile Museum to get an idea what bombproof sound proofing really looks like:
https://titanmissilemuseum.org/
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post #147 of 243 Old 02-01-2020, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Boilermaker744 View Post
I wasn't going to comment anymore, but I have to. Lol. The one chap suggested a concrete block filled room in a room. Now, you're just wasting money. There is no need for that if you used a single 12" thick poured room, WITH STEEL, rebar, fiber reinforced concrete.
Sorry, but rebar and fiber strengthen concrete but don't significantly stiffen it. For sound isolation you need stiffness, not strength. And rebar is expensive. So are forms to pour concrete walls.

Your suggestion ignores isolation. Masonry block is cheap. Less expensive wall construction allows for isolated walls. And concrete filled masonry block with only modest rebar is sufficient for tornado shelter construction. It will be just fine against the relatively puny energy imparted by the acoustic energy in the room without the need for excessive rebar or fiber reinforcement.

Talk about wasted money.
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post #148 of 243 Old 02-02-2020, 09:53 AM
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Sorry, but rebar and fiber strengthen concrete but don't significantly stiffen it. For sound isolation you need stiffness, not strength. And rebar is expensive. So are forms to pour concrete walls.

Your suggestion ignores isolation. Masonry block is cheap. Less expensive wall construction allows for isolated walls. And concrete filled masonry block with only modest rebar is sufficient for tornado shelter construction. It will be just fine against the relatively puny energy imparted by the acoustic energy in the room without the need for excessive rebar or fiber reinforcement.

Talk about wasted money.
I'm not sure where you or the OP are from, but here in Cleveland Ohio, They (Concrete poured and concrete) run about the same. I have family who owns both businesses. You talk about isolation, but if OP (Original Poster) is building it underground, or partially as suggested, there is no need to isolate from ANYTHING. It's not attached to anything. 12" thick of concrete is going to be STIFF enough with steel structure and rebar. When you're talking an UNLIMITED budget, what is $600.00 USD?? Nothing. If he wants the best, poured concrete is the way to go. As for your comment about puny energy imparted by the acoustic energy... WOW. That is ridiculous. Again, if you don't know what 160DB is, or will do, please don't mislead the OP. It will destroy your block wall because there are too many failure points. There is absolutely nothing puny about 160db. Lol.
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post #149 of 243 Old 02-02-2020, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Boilermaker744 View Post
I'm not sure where you or the OP are from, but here in Cleveland Ohio, They (Concrete poured and concrete) run about the same. I have family who owns both businesses. You talk about isolation, but if OP (Original Poster) is building it underground, or partially as suggested, there is no need to isolate from ANYTHING. It's not attached to anything. 12" thick of concrete is going to be STIFF enough with steel structure and rebar. When you're talking an UNLIMITED budget, what is $600.00 USD?? Nothing. If he wants the best, poured concrete is the way to go. As for your comment about puny energy imparted by the acoustic energy... WOW. That is ridiculous. Again, if you don't know what 160DB is, or will do, please don't mislead the OP. It will destroy your block wall because there are too many failure points. There is absolutely nothing puny about 160db. Lol.
My original post may not have been clear. I was talking about building above ground.

I am familiar with 160dB.

I may not own a concrete business, but do have a masters in mechanical engineering and in a previous life designed equipment isolation rafting for run silent submarines as well as surface warship topside structures to withstand nuclear overpressure. Poured block wall will be fine.
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post #150 of 243 Old 02-02-2020, 11:26 AM
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Re puny energy, that matters given the extreme sensitivity of our hearing to acoustic energy.

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