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post #1 of 15 Old 01-03-2020, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Building a HT in a Dutch attik room

Dear AVS Forum,

the home theater bug has bitten me! It is about time, I've been in love with film all my life.

[feel free to skip the next 5 paragraphs, if you're not interested in my personal history]

In my teens, I vividly remember buying a lens on eBay and building a sort of "camera obscura", in which I would place my TFL monitor upside down and produce a large image on my bedroom wall. Woah, I've actually forgotten about that until writing this post It was impossible to get that thing in focus, aside from some small areas of the picture. Nevertheless gave me joy to build and the "wow" effect when it was done.

It took me a decade and a half (3 years ago), to pull the trigger on my first projector: a W1070, a 1080p BenQ. It was set up in the attic of my previous home, projecting on a poorly painted wall and with so much keystone, I'm embarrassed to tell you about it :S

The painting process was laborious and frustrating, as the wall started to peel off with the fresh paint -- the timelapse footage would make you ROTFL. A disaster, but worked somehow in the end... That BenQ gave me so much joy, that I decided to pass it on to my dad. He lives in a different country and is discovering the magic of projection by himself now.

After letting the BenQ go, I moved to a different home and upgraded to the Optoma UHD51/a. That thing can throw an amazingly sharp image at very short distances. Motion handling is top notch (to my eyes) and works great paired with the NVidia Shield and a beefy Synology NAS.

My most recent acquisition was an Optoma UHD 300X. Got it as a gift for my cousin for his home theater setup. Motion handling on that one is not so good, action scenes are hard to follow. But it too will throw a sharp 4K image and is a generous start for his projection life. In helping my cousin setup his bat cave, I realized my own setup has a lot of untapped potential.

TL;DR:
My projection room is on the top floor of a 3-story rented dutch house with no straight ceilings (see attached scheme, also similar to this room: https://www.homecinemamagazine.nl/20...p-verlichting/ )

So, the improvements I'm looking to make are (in order of importance):

#1 . fix projector into the ceiling, it currently sits on top of a book shelf -> with this I'll be able to open up more space in the room for better sitting AND better position the projector, as it currently sits tilted. Will take some carpentry work, as I need to insert the projector into the celling itself. Will also need to make sure it has enough airflow.

#2 . black out side walls + door -> better black levels! They are currently quite poor. Need to figure out:
2.1. what material to use (?) curtains, velvet, wallpaper, paint

#3 . blackout area around the screen. velvet (?). Options:
3.1. hang the velvet from the ceiling OR build a structure with cardboard or plywood
3.2. ideally build something that will allow for switching between 16:9 and 2.35:1. Something that can be folded in and out.

#4 . blackout ceiling: it's a wooden structure, house beams + plywood for insulation. Just paint over it? Or velvet + finger pins (?)

#5 . blackout back wall. Black paint should do the job.

#6 . Audio. This is a big project in itself. Insulation is needed if I'm to upgrade my speakers, as neighbor would complain.

#7 . New projector. Got my eyes on an NX7.

#8 . Perhaps I should give up now, since its a rented house, neighbors are too close and do this at a later point in my life (31 currently) ...

I'm a bit overwhelmed with the amount of work, and most of the info on AVS Forum is for the US, but I'm living in Europe. Things I've looked at so far:

* Black velvet recommended by AVS Forum: https://syfabrics.com/products/plush-triple-velvet1
(sadly not available in Europe, they won't ship overseas)

* Black velvet on Dutch Online shop: https://www.textielstad.nl/stoffen/s...ne-velvet.html
(several materials here, Zione seems best benefit for price)

* Black Vinyl: https://www.photography-backgrounds....yl-backed.html
(UK supplier yet to answer, but it's 7m long, not sure how to ship this. Also attaching it to the wall seems challenging)

* Black paint suggested here at AVS Forum: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...1e6b30f4f81e32
(haven't found on local market yet...)

Note: once I get home next week will post images of the room & better measurements
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post #2 of 15 Old 01-03-2020, 11:24 AM
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Building a HT in a Dutch attik room

Always nice to see a fellow countryman here. Will be following your build! I’ll be looking at that fabric you mentioned. I’m currently in the process of selecting one but so far only looked at lycra (aka spandex).

Is that velvet accoustically transparent?

For the Dutch specific materials I got great help from the htforum community. The combination of that one plus avsforum is a great help.

Last edited by ijansch; 01-03-2020 at 11:27 AM.
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post #3 of 15 Old 01-04-2020, 01:34 PM
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Why tilt the screen???
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post #4 of 15 Old 01-13-2020, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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hey guys, lots of building today! I was in the UK and decided to pull the trigger on the whaleys velvet (https://www.whaleys-bradford.ltd.uk/...t-black-devore).

Got 40m2 of it! R.I.P. my wallet :P ... can do pretty much the whole room now. I also moved the screen from one side of the room to the other in order to:
- gain an additional ~35cm (makes a big difference in a small room)
- put the projector close to the window, so that I gain more throw distance
- put the projector on a custom floating shelf I build myself -- I'm gaining so much space not having the projector on the white closed! I could even fit a big couch here. Yay!

Posted several pics below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijansch View Post
Always nice to see a fellow countryman here. Will be following your build! I’ll be looking at that fabric you mentioned. I’m currently in the process of selecting one but so far only looked at lycra (aka spandex).

Is that velvet accoustically transparent?

For the Dutch specific materials I got great help from the htforum community. The combination of that one plus avsforum is a great help.
It does seem acoustically transparent, because it is very light. If you tell me how, I could test if for you.


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Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
Why tilt the screen???
Have you checked the schematic above? Projector was also tilted. But now that I moved the screen to the other side of the room this problem is finally solved!
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post #5 of 15 Old 01-13-2020, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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My plan to attach the velvet: thumb tacks ("punaises" in Dutch) ... the room has a lot of wood, I think it should be fine.

I would like to reuse this material once I move because it's quite expensive and darker than dark! very impressive!

Will buy black thumb tacks, if I can find them in NL or buy normal ones and spray paint them black.
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post #6 of 15 Old 01-13-2020, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auleo View Post
My plan to attach the velvet: thumb tacks ("punaises" in Dutch) ... the room has a lot of wood, I think it should be fine.

I would like to reuse this material once I move because it's quite expensive and darker than dark! very impressive!

Will buy black thumb tacks, if I can find them in NL or buy normal ones and spray paint them black.
Those are some nice tacks, never seen ones like those before, but they look easier than some of the others.
You can re-use panels as well, glue neodymium magnets to them and then put magnets on the wall or ceiling.

If you are re-using the material, it's actually better to use panels, otherwise when you try to repackage it, it will wrinkle. Wrinkles are almost impossible to get out in black velvet, the only way I know of is to put a damp cloth in the dryer and dry for just a couple minutes. Even then, that solution isn't perfect. You can put the velvet back on the roll if you are super careful and avoid too much wrinkling, but honestly, if I had to do it over again, I would have probably just done panels from the start.

The reason I didn't do the panels was mainly because I had variable ceiling heights between different rooms, and I knew it ahead of time before I moved. Also I had floor molding that was the real bulky type at the bottom, so it was kind of a pain to align it. Combine that with the effects on the sound, I decided against it, I think most should pick the panel method.

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Last edited by coderguy; 01-13-2020 at 07:36 PM.
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post #7 of 15 Old 01-14-2020, 01:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Those are some nice tacks, never seen ones like those before, but they look easier than some of the others.
You can re-use panels as well, glue neodymium magnets to them and then put magnets on the wall or ceiling.

If you are re-using the material, it's actually better to use panels, otherwise when you try to repackage it, it will wrinkle. Wrinkles are almost impossible to get out in black velvet, the only way I know of is to put a damp cloth in the dryer and dry for just a couple minutes. Even then, that solution isn't perfect. You can put the velvet back on the roll if you are super careful and avoid too much wrinkling, but honestly, if I had to do it over again, I would have probably just done panels from the start.

The reason I didn't do the panels was mainly because I had variable ceiling heights between different rooms, and I knew it ahead of time before I moved. Also I had floor molding that was the real bulky type at the bottom, so it was kind of a pain to align it. Combine that with the effects on the sound, I decided against it, I think most should pick the panel method.
Two problems with panels: I don't know the shape of my future home AND lots of wood work. You've see my walls, right? They are all angled... One half-assed idea: just use the tacks for now and avoid as much cutting as possible. Once I find a new place to live, make panels for the new HT room and instead of rolling for transport, install the velvet in the newly made panels. :P

On the other hand.. I could make only square and triangular panels that would be easier to reuse in a future room. The only real impediment for me then is my lack of skill/resources to work with wood. Could be solved with some more time investment on my side. I'm eager to see this finished though and tacks are just so easy, plug and play!
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post #8 of 15 Old 01-14-2020, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auleo View Post
Two problems with panels: I don't know the shape of my future home AND lots of wood work. You've see my walls, right? They are all angled... One half-assed idea: just use the tacks for now and avoid as much cutting as possible. Once I find a new place to live, make panels for the new HT room and instead of rolling for transport, install the velvet in the newly made panels. :P

On the other hand.. I could make only square and triangular panels that would be easier to reuse in a future room. The only real impediment for me then is my lack of skill/resources to work with wood. Could be solved with some more time investment on my side. I'm eager to see this finished though and tacks are just so easy, plug and play!
The tacks are easy, I would just not want you to ruin your material with wrinkles like I did some of mine.

I think if you staple the velvet on foamboard, the velvet is EASY to remove later and put on a different sized / shape foamboard. Ross Foamboard is even thick enough to take a regular stapler without the staples going all the way through to the velvet, don't use a real powerful stapler but an average one (definitely not a staple gun).

The technique is to put a piece of cardboard under the Ross Foamboard, wrap the velvet around ONLY the foamboard, and then staple the velvet onto the foamboard with the piece of underlying cardboard just providing some soft support so the staple doesn't fully close (which is what you want so it doesn't break the velvet too much). I didn't even have to use black staples with this method. It takes only about 5-10 minutes to make an entire panel that way, and no waiting on glue. The velvet will be pretty much perfectly preserved with no wrinkles, and the panel will look perfect.

You may want to use the bigger panels for the walls though (the full sized light-weight foamboards). The issue is only some Home Depots or Lowes carry them, it varies and I had trouble finding the lighter weight foam near where I live, they only had the stuff that weighed 20+ pounds and was insulation grade (you want panels that weigh 5 pounds or less usually). So I just used the real small Ross foamboard (that was just for my masking panels). I do have a mix of panels and straight tacked velvet though, I actually did both methods, but much more is tacked than is in panel form.

You can use cheap cardboard boxes to make templates and just draw on them by outlining your wall shapes so to speak. Then you can cut the foamboard into the correct shape by following the cardboard with a razor knife.

I'm a terrible carpenter as well, I don't have all the right tools really, like some do.

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Last edited by coderguy; 01-14-2020 at 02:31 AM.
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post #9 of 15 Old 01-14-2020, 02:50 AM - Thread Starter
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The tacks are easy, I would just not want you to ruin your material with wrinkles like I did some of mine.

I think if you staple the velvet on foamboard, the velvet is EASY to remove later and put on a different sized / shape foamboard. Ross Foamboard is even thick enough to take a regular stapler without the staples going all the way through to the velvet, don't use a real powerful stapler but an average one (definitely not a staple gun).

The technique is to put a piece of cardboard under the Ross Foamboard, wrap the velvet around ONLY the foamboard, and then staple the velvet onto the foamboard with the piece of underlying cardboard just providing some soft support so the staple doesn't fully close (which is what you want so it doesn't break the velvet too much). I didn't even have to use black staples with this method. It takes only about 5-10 minutes to make an entire panel that way, and no waiting on glue. The velvet will be pretty much perfectly preserved with no wrinkles, and the panel will look perfect.

You may want to use the bigger panels for the walls though (the full sized light-weight foamboards). The issue is only some Home Depots or Lowes carry them, it varies and I had trouble finding the lighter weight foam near where I live, they only had the stuff that weighed 20+ pounds and was insulation grade (you want panels that weigh 5 pounds or less usually). So I just used the real small Ross foamboard (that was just for my masking panels). I do have a mix of panels and straight tacked velvet though, I actually did both methods, but much more is tacked than is in panel form.

You can use cheap cardboard boxes to make templates and just draw on them by outlining your wall shapes so to speak. Then you can cut the foamboard into the correct shape by following the cardboard with a razor knife.

I'm a terrible carpenter as well, I don't have all the right tools really, like some do.


Interesting... What thickness did you use? Do you have any pictures? I'm having a hard time understanding how you placed the cardboard, front or back of the panel? Under or over the velvet?

I live in the Netherlands, not sure I'll find the same kind of foam board you mention, but I can look for it in my area.

Edit: also curious how you attached the boards to your walls and ceiling. Magnets?
Edit2: adding quotation

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Did the door today. It's just plain velvet with edges tacked on. Bought white thumb tacks and spray painted them matte black. Works like a charm for the door.
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post #11 of 15 Old 01-14-2020, 02:52 PM
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Did the door today. It's just plain velvet with edges tacked on. Bought white thumb tacks and spray painted them matte black. Works like a charm for the door.


Why not use staples? Might be more ‘invisible’ than a thumb tack.
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post #12 of 15 Old 01-14-2020, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Why not use staples? Might be more ‘invisible’ than a thumb tack.
I thought they might be shiny in the dark room, but yeah I could spray paint them as well. I also thought they might be harder to remove and more damaging to the velvet than a thumb tack... do you have experience with both?

I'm making up my mind about all this, solution I'm going to start implementing tomorrow:

1. big rectangular panels for side walls, triangular gaps will be just tacked / stapled on
2. ceiling: overhanging panels look like they would be extremely difficult to build and attach ... so prob go with no panels, just tacking / stapling
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post #13 of 15 Old 01-15-2020, 02:38 AM
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Interesting... What thickness did you use? Do you have any pictures? I'm having a hard time understanding how you placed the cardboard, front or back of the panel? Under or over the velvet?

I live in the Netherlands, not sure I'll find the same kind of foam board you mention, but I can look for it in my area.

Edit: also curious how you attached the boards to your walls and ceiling. Magnets?
Edit2: adding quotation
About 1/4cm to 1/2 cm thickness, it is pretty much standard stuff in the office supply area of a major retailer. This particular foamboard I used is basically just thick cardboard, you could also use cardboard if you get in the correct thickness. They were short though, only about 100cm x 75cm per panel. I only paid $1 USD per board. To make a masking panel, I had to combine 2 of them, to do that I used shipping tape and taped them together, then I glued 2 pieces of cardboard to the back as a stabilizing brace, worked fine. These would not be a great size for wall panels, but they'd be ok for ceiling panels. You can combine them though, you could tape 4 together if you wanted (then staple the velvet after and it won't show a seam), just make sure to glue cardboard to the back as a brace so they aren't too flimsy.

You can attach them with Neodymium magnets, it is also possible to use extra long tacks or a staple gun, but that could damage the material when removing them. You need fairly wide and thin neodymium magnets. The magnets can be found on Ebay or Amazon, you just need fairly decent sized magnets (don't buy the tiny ones). Super glue the magnets to the back of the foamboard, and if you make the panels light enough, you can actually tack open hole washers to the ceiling and just use that for the magnets to grip, depends how strong and large of magents you use. You could also glue magnets to the ceiling and walls.

The cardboard I mentioned in my other post isn't actually for mounting but only for providing a temporary cushion between the table, the foamboard, and the stapling process. You don't staple the cardboard to the foamboard, the cardboard just acts as a pad on your table during stapling (you could use anything really I guess).

The procedure is to just lay any large piece of cardboard flat over a table, then wrap the foamboard in velvet, and lay it on top of the cardboard and staple it. Otherwise, without the cardboard sitting between the table and foamboard, then the staple hits the hard table and then tends to bend or close, whereas you can make them go in straight if you don't use too powerful of a stapler, and they won't show on the other side.

No pictures as I'm not at homebase, but I did a simple drawing as below. This process couldn't be any simpler, it is as basic as it gets.
Just pretend the gray lines are staples.



Made a panel 3 years ago and it still looks brand new with zero wrinkles, staples never fall out. Black staples are better if you can get them, but this method allows you to use silver staples as well (As noted they won't go through much, barely maybe a couple until you get the technique down).

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Regular office sized staples are good for making panels, but not so good for attaching the velvet directly to the wall (depends on your wall really).
For direct velvet just keep using tacks (it's better than staples since your install isn't permanent). Staples are harder to remove later without causing wrinkles.

I would use extra long tacks or magnets to attach any panels though. I have done these processes many many times in many different rooms, that's how I know what works best. Regular sized tacks aren't usually long-enough to hold the panels properly, the panels are too thick for that, but the long ones will work. You can order the longer tacks online.

The disadvantage to the tacks is you will drop a few, and they will get on your floor, so install your carpet after if possible. Otherwise they are hard as heck to see in thick carpet and you'll step on them, and it hurts. Don't ask me how I know

The tacks last a long time, even the short tacks almost NEVER fall out (very rare, but occasionally can fall from ceiling, almost never from wall).
The longer tacks will NEVER fall out, they go too deep into the wall and ceiling.

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Last edited by coderguy; 01-15-2020 at 03:11 AM.
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post #15 of 15 Old 01-15-2020, 08:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Regular office sized staples are good for making panels, but not so good for attaching the velvet directly to the wall (depends on your wall really).
For direct velvet just keep using tacks (it's better than staples since your install isn't permanent). Staples are harder to remove later without causing wrinkles.

I would use extra long tacks or magnets to attach any panels though. I have done these processes many many times in many different rooms, that's how I know what works best. Regular sized tacks aren't usually long-enough to hold the panels properly, the panels are too thick for that, but the long ones will work. You can order the longer tacks online.

The disadvantage to the tacks is you will drop a few, and they will get on your floor, so install your carpet after if possible. Otherwise they are hard as heck to see in thick carpet and you'll step on them, and it hurts. Don't ask me how I know

The tacks last a long time, even the short tacks almost NEVER fall out (very rare, but occasionally can fall from ceiling, almost never from wall).
The longer tacks will NEVER fall out, they go too deep into the wall and ceiling.
thanks for all the tips, mate. appreciate you taking the time.

I followed your advice and went for panels, but not foam, wood. see attached pics. could not find the foam you mentioned in my area..

I didn't want the wood splitting in half as I intended to use screws, so I got 44mm x 44mm thick. they turned out to be somewhat heavy and I'll go get some strong neodymium magnets tomorrow.

Building the wooden panels is going good so far, just slow.. I got two big ones, more to come tomorrow. I also bought a nice couch for the room, such a pain to transport, but I rest in the hope that all this will be worth my while and the fam will appreciate some nice movies together.

And yes, I know about the fallen tacks. Don't ask me how either :P
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