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post #1321 of 1358 Old 04-30-2014, 04:24 PM
 
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Don't you hear air moving ? Air is noisy... Driving with the windows down drives me nuts (and also gives you hearing damage in a select band of frequency needed for articulation of most female voices). I would think even with a helmet or gear on you still hear sound right ? The air makes no noise as you fall through it ?
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post #1322 of 1358 Old 05-30-2014, 10:09 AM
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While I understand GG is the premier damping product to use between DW sheets, are there any other similar products that could be substituted for GG in the same application - even if less effective? I'm not asking for an endorsement, just what's available on the market by name.

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post #1323 of 1358 Old 05-30-2014, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redjr View Post

While I understand GG is the premier damping product to use between DW sheets, are there any other similar products that could be substituted for GG in the same application - even if less effective? I'm not asking for an endorsement, just what's available on the market by name.

quietrock.com's "QuietGlue Pro"

Is also a viscoelastic constrained layer damping product for drywall.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are test result comparisons somewhere in this thread.

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post #1324 of 1358 Old 05-30-2014, 11:08 AM
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Thanks BB. I was seeing Quietrock referenced, but never noticed QuietGlue. On first glance it's not much cheaper, but I'll look into it.

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post #1325 of 1358 Old 05-30-2014, 11:20 AM
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From a practical standpoint, keep in mind the compressibility / viscosity of the different damping compounds. Some spread readily and others... don't.

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post #1326 of 1358 Old 05-30-2014, 11:30 AM
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So I can assume Q... is more difficult to apply?... smile.gif

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post #1327 of 1358 Old 05-30-2014, 12:23 PM
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300% more viscous / stiff.

Eat your spinach

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post #1328 of 1358 Old 05-30-2014, 01:00 PM
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smile.gif

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post #1329 of 1358 Old 08-19-2014, 03:17 PM
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I have read through all 45 pages of this thread and have read some invaluable things. Ted has some great info, and the Soundproofing Company website has some amazing articles to learn from.

I recently had my basement get water backup (just rain water, not sewage) like most in southeast Michigan. This destroyed my existing HT walls, which is not a bad thing as they were wood paneling. I currently have drop tile ceiling installed, two walls have foundation on the other side and two walls that lead to other rooms in the basement. I am looking at sound proofing the room as much as possible, but budget is always a concern. In a perfect world I would decouple with clips on all 4 walls plus ceiling with DD GG. However, I am going to need to scale back due to budget. Here is what I am looking at doing, but would like opinions for the best bang for my buck.
  • I would like to DD GG for two of the walls that lead to the other rooms screwed directly to framing. This is due to room size being a premium and I don't think I can lose the space with clips and channels as well as DD GG. Plus it would cost a lot less to do. Is this worth it to do if I am not doing clips and channels?

    Also, is there a need to do all 4 walls with DD GG since two of my walls are foundation on the other side?
  • I want to do some new Ceilume Stratford tiles plus R13 for the ceiling. I have also read about GG on the subfloor with drywall attached to the GG in between the floor joists for added noise reduction. Is this worth doing as it seems fairly easy and inexpensive?
  • For the two doors I need for the room, where should I get the solid core doors from? I am assuming Lowe's or HD pre-hung doors are more than adequate once I add in foam around the frame and seal the bottom, correct?

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

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post #1330 of 1358 Old 08-20-2014, 06:30 AM
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If you use another drop ceiling, attach the drywall directly to the studs and only do the walls not against a foundation wall you will be significantly disappointed in your results.

attaching damped drywall to the bottom of the subfloor does work at reducing the foot traffic noise and of a dog running across a hardwood floor.
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post #1331 of 1358 Old 08-20-2014, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post
If you use another drop ceiling, attach the drywall directly to the studs and only do the walls not against a foundation wall you will be significantly disappointed in your results.

attaching damped drywall to the bottom of the subfloor does work at reducing the foot traffic noise and of a dog running across a hardwood floor.
That's what I thought. It will be better than the existing wood paneling though for acoustics at least. Just not at keeping noise out from other rooms.

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post #1332 of 1358 Old 08-21-2014, 11:06 AM
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If you use another drop ceiling, attach the drywall directly to the studs and only do the walls not against a foundation wall you will be significantly disappointed in your results.
What BIG should've said is that the drop ceiling will kill any soundproofing efforts you use elsewhere. If you are able to DD GG the ceiling as well, you'll do much better at soundproofing the room. DD GG on the side walls without clips will not necessarily be bad, just not as good as using clips. Again, however, its the drop ceiling that will eliminate any benefits.

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post #1333 of 1358 Old 10-02-2014, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by redjr View Post
While I understand GG is the premier damping product to use between DW sheets, are there any other similar products that could be substituted for GG in the same application - even if less effective? I'm not asking for an endorsement, just what's available on the market by name.
I keep wondering if rubber cement would work. It costs the same for a gallon of rubber cement as a single tube of GG. Anytime I see a description of GG, it sounds like they are describing rubber cement. I've even heard some writers describe it that way.

And just to be clear, I don't care if my results aren't quite as good as GG, as long as it has some positive effect. My ductwork sound transfer is by far a larger issue, so I am just looking for a little bit of improvement through a drywall ceiling.
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post #1334 of 1358 Old 10-02-2014, 12:58 PM
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I keep wondering if rubber cement would work. It costs the same for a gallon of rubber cement as a single tube of GG.
Well, let's start with rubber cement is not designed nor approved as a building material - and I have no idea how it would behave in a fire.

The best way to do a lower-cost solution of GG is to simply use less than the recommended amount (2 tubes per sheet of drywall) - meaning like 1 tube per sheet. At least that is a known, measured, and safe way to proceed...

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post #1335 of 1358 Old 10-02-2014, 01:15 PM
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Neat stuff
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post #1336 of 1358 Old 10-02-2014, 03:36 PM
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Well, let's start with rubber cement is not designed nor approved as a building material - and I have no idea how it would behave in a fire.

The best way to do a lower-cost solution of GG is to simply use less than the recommended amount (2 tubes per sheet of drywall) - meaning like 1 tube per sheet. At least that is a known, measured, and safe way to proceed...

Jeff
Very good point, and that is enough for me to not use it. That being said, I am still curious.... I would certainly use it for speaker construction.
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post #1337 of 1358 Old 10-02-2014, 04:18 PM
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That being said, I am still curious.... I would certainly use it for speaker construction.
Safe to say, really, that in this forum, if there was a significantly cheaper alternative that performed as well, you'd see it mentioned by post #2 . Allow me to demonstrate:

Hey guys, is there something cheaper than a 6' Monster HDMI cable that has similar picture quality?



(reply in 3... 2... 1...)

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post #1338 of 1358 Old 10-03-2014, 10:00 AM
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Is rubber cement viscoelastic?
Is rubber cement engineered to have its optimum properties between two sheets of drywall?

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post #1339 of 1358 Old 10-03-2014, 10:34 AM
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I keep wondering if rubber cement would work. It costs the same for a gallon of rubber cement as a single tube of GG. Anytime I see a description of GG, it sounds like they are describing rubber cement. I've even heard some writers describe it that way.

And just to be clear, I don't care if my results aren't quite as good as GG, as long as it has some positive effect. My ductwork sound transfer is by far a larger issue, so I am just looking for a little bit of improvement through a drywall ceiling.
In the end I went with GG. Mostly for its damping properties as opposed to isolation. My media room - although not a true HT - is for the most part complete and I've 'moved-in', but I'm still waiting for 2 chairs and my french doors! I have yet to optimize my space/speakers through DSP too. I also went with an acoustic drop-ceiling with SafeNSound between the floor joist overhead. Our formal living room is directly above and while you can hear there's music or a movie being played it's very muffled and you can't make anything out, at least casually. I suppose if you put your ear to the floor you could, but I haven't given it that test yet. We like use that room twice a year at best, so I'm really not concerned about any leaking sound to that space anyway. I would have expected a lot more sound to escape and make it's way to the first floor, but I'm glad the results are very positive. Some of the experts warned me. Even without the room doors and a hollow core door leading to the basement, my wife can't hear anything up on the third floor where the bedrooms are. And I like to listen fairly loud too. Not reference levels but louder than even my 16 yr old son likes. (That's odd I know. ) Maybe my hearing is going!

Now, I can't say conclusively what factor the GG is contibuting to my room dynamics - hopefully only improving them. For sure it's not that alone. I didn't try to physically isolate my room with hat-channel and clips, but I used very solid construction, Safe-N-Sound in all walls and made every effort to 'tighten-up' the space even before DD and the GG. I have to say I'm very happy with the results. And once I get my doors on, I believe my little fish tank will be even nicer and quieter than it is now.

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post #1340 of 1358 Old 10-05-2014, 08:52 AM
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Is rubber cement viscoelastic?
Is rubber cement engineered to have its optimum properties between two sheets of drywall?
Yes, rubber cement is viscoelastic. Obviously not engineered for this specific use, but that doesn't mean it won't the job. Think of all the great things you can do with WD-40 that it wasn't specifically engineered for.
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post #1341 of 1358 Old 10-05-2014, 09:22 AM
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Rubber cement is cheaper than GG in bulk quantities, but then again consider how much you would need to do a room and after reading the MSDS sheet for Rubber Cement, The potential effects from inhalation are staggering. Not sure how you could do the walls without creating a dangerous level of fumes.

MSDS sheet:

"Inhalation:

Short Term: irritation, changes in blood pressure, nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, chest pain, difficulty breathing, irregular heartbeat, headache, drowsiness, dizziness, disorientation, emotional disturbances, hallucinations, loss of coordination, suffocation, internal bleeding, kidney damage, unconsciousness, coma"


Pretty much explains why I loved working with it in art class at school.

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post #1342 of 1358 Old 10-05-2014, 12:13 PM
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Yes, rubber cement is viscoelastic. Obviously not engineered for this specific use, but that doesn't mean it won't the job. Think of all the great things you can do with WD-40 that it wasn't specifically engineered for.

[humor, but true]
For example, WD40 can be used to remove rubber cement.

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post #1343 of 1358 Old 10-06-2014, 10:32 AM
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I've read through mostly positive reviews for the past 45 pages. There are a few dissenters though. Me being one of them. Sorry. There are some controversial opinions of Green Glue and its cost effectiveness as been discussed heavily on other sites. I won't list them here, but its very easy to find with a google or yahoo search.

Here's my gripe. I'll sugarcaot as much as possible my beef because I am not an expert at all in soundproofing. So full disclosure here. I've only had a very limited experience with this stuff helping a friend do his home theatre living room construction, and I also ordered a case of this stuff and started using it on a very limited basis a few days ago.

1 - My opinion is no to green glue as a decoupling agent between framing studs and drywall...
For starters, the stuff is really messy. Using it on the studs and getting good coverage before the first layer of drywall goes on is disastrous. Firstly, even if you are double drywalling, so you don't waste a bunch of green glue, the first squeeze and application should go directly to the studs and THAT is where it gets messy. If you are not careful the stuff slides down and gets on the floors all over. After you put the stuff on the studs, you then put the drywall up. I suppose you could go with the traditional build a stud cavity (room) within a stud cavity (room), but using up that much space is just not an option for many homes. And yes, I suppose you could use clips and channels to decouple the first drywall layer from the wall, but sometimes that is a limited option too because of issues with doors, plumbing, etc.. So, if you want to use the green glue as sort of a chemical way to decouple the first drywall layer from the studs, well my opinion is that it is a messy disaster. Plus, if you do some google searches, I have read that green glue as a decoupler between stud and drywall is really not that great. Like, as in, no difference at all.

2 - My opinion on green glue as a decoupling agent between sheets of drywall is a maybe, or maybe not.
OK. I admit that use of some sort of chemical agent, whether it bonds or not, between two layers of drywall would have much more significant benefit than use of green glue between stud and drywall. Why? Simply because of the sheer amount of surface area of putting that green glue stuff between drywall is so much greater than green glue on just the studs. And putting it on the studs is in my opinion a mess and a waste of money. What I have read is that green glue isn't even glue. It is very viscous (i.e. liquidy without it being total liquid). Well, who gives a hoot if it is a little bit more liquid than plain old silicone? The idea is that its use is as a decoupling agent. All the magic about it converting sound energy to heat or whatever is true for plain old silicone also. I mean, it might be arguable that green glue might offer about a big improvement over not using anything as a decoupling agent. But here's the kicker. If it is only like 2% better than using regular old plain silicone (not glue) between sheets of drywall, then why would anyone want to pay 200% more for very little gains over something that you can already buy cheaply at the hardware store (silicone caulk). I mean, come on. There were music studios doing soundproofing way before these specialized products came about and I'm sure that silicone worked fine then. Why would silicone caulk not work now between drywall sheets? Green glue isn't even glue! Silicone is cheaper. So what, silicone is a tad more viscous. Big deal.

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post #1344 of 1358 Old 10-06-2014, 11:00 AM
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anyone who thinks Green Glue is a decoupling agent is clueless and hasn't read the research on Constrained Dampening Layers. Bobsled34 you are lacking in knowledge of the physics involved and mechaical properties of viscoelastic layering whether it is Green Glue or any other similar product.
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post #1345 of 1358 Old 10-06-2014, 12:01 PM
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1 - My opinion is no to green glue as a decoupling agent between framing studs and drywall...
As BigMouth already pointed out, Green Glue is not a decoupling agent. As to the use of Green Glue on studs prior to drywall, even the manufacturer clearly states that will do nothing. From their FAQ:

http://www.greengluecompany.com/faq
We do not recommend using the Green Glue Noiseproofing Compound on the studs or joists. Green Glue must be used between two rigid layers to be effective and, as such, you will not achieve any measurable benefits by using the compound in this manner.
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What I have read is that green glue isn't even glue.
Well, you're on the right path there!

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If it is only like 2% better than using regular old plain silicone (not glue) between sheets of drywall, then why would anyone want to pay 200% more for very little gains over something that you can already buy cheaply at the hardware store (silicone caulk). I mean, come on. There were music studios doing soundproofing way before these specialized products came about and I'm sure that silicone worked fine then. Why would silicone caulk not work now between drywall sheets?
I suggest you look at the lab results... Silicone caulk is not built for this purpose (as a damping compound) - and I doubt studios were using silicone caulk between layers of drywall in the past. (is there evidence of this?)

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post #1346 of 1358 Old 10-06-2014, 02:33 PM
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Silicone caulk is not built for this purpose (as a damping compound)
A couple days back I went rummaging around for test results for rubber cement -- no joy.
But I did find results for silicone caulk that day. It results in a higher resonance frequency (that's bad), a lower critical frequency (that's bad), and less damping (not great either).

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post #1347 of 1358 Old 10-06-2014, 03:03 PM
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A couple days back I went rummaging around for test results for rubber cement -- no joy.
But I did find results for silicone caulk that day. It results in a higher resonance frequency (that's bad), a lower critical frequency (that's bad), and less damping (not great either).
So was there a time when folks were actually trying to use silicone caulk as a damping compound, or were these test results just done to de-bunk a myth or show why the material matters?

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post #1348 of 1358 Old 10-06-2014, 03:57 PM
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So was there a time when folks were actually trying to use silicone caulk as a damping compound, or were these test results just done to de-bunk a myth or show why the material matters?
as for if anyone used silicone caulk -- your google is as good as mine.
As for the results I mentioned: Neither, although closer to the latter.
It was little tests on drywall sandwiches with: silicone, drywall adhesives, latex caulk, wood glue, sub-floor adhesives, commercial damping adhesives, commercial damping pad, just screws, tar paper, and other compounds. Back in the early 2000s internet myth debunk years, when people were talking about using Liquid Nails instead of screws to hold up ceiling drywall (which falls down years later).
(There are limits on both the tests [i.e. not NRC/Orfield], and my ability to comment on confidential results.)

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Originally Posted by bobsled34 View Post
I've read through mostly positive reviews for the past 45 pages. There are a few dissenters though. Me being one of them. Sorry. There are some controversial opinions of Green Glue and its cost effectiveness as been discussed heavily on other sites. I won't list them here, but its very easy to find with a google or yahoo search.

Here's my gripe. I'll sugarcaot as much as possible my beef because I am not an expert at all in soundproofing. So full disclosure here. I've only had a very limited experience with this stuff helping a friend do his home theatre living room construction, and I also ordered a case of this stuff and started using it on a very limited basis a few days ago.

1 - My opinion is no to green glue as a decoupling agent between framing studs and drywall...
For starters, the stuff is really messy. Using it on the studs and getting good coverage before the first layer of drywall goes on is disastrous. Firstly, even if you are double drywalling, so you don't waste a bunch of green glue, the first squeeze and application should go directly to the studs and THAT is where it gets messy. If you are not careful the stuff slides down and gets on the floors all over. After you put the stuff on the studs, you then put the drywall up. I suppose you could go with the traditional build a stud cavity (room) within a stud cavity (room), but using up that much space is just not an option for many homes. And yes, I suppose you could use clips and channels to decouple the first drywall layer from the wall, but sometimes that is a limited option too because of issues with doors, plumbing, etc.. So, if you want to use the green glue as sort of a chemical way to decouple the first drywall layer from the studs, well my opinion is that it is a messy disaster. Plus, if you do some google searches, I have read that green glue as a decoupler between stud and drywall is really not that great. Like, as in, no difference at all.

2 - My opinion on green glue as a decoupling agent between sheets of drywall is a maybe, or maybe not.
OK. I admit that use of some sort of chemical agent, whether it bonds or not, between two layers of drywall would have much more significant benefit than use of green glue between stud and drywall. Why? Simply because of the sheer amount of surface area of putting that green glue stuff between drywall is so much greater than green glue on just the studs. And putting it on the studs is in my opinion a mess and a waste of money. What I have read is that green glue isn't even glue. It is very viscous (i.e. liquidy without it being total liquid). Well, who gives a hoot if it is a little bit more liquid than plain old silicone? The idea is that its use is as a decoupling agent. All the magic about it converting sound energy to heat or whatever is true for plain old silicone also. I mean, it might be arguable that green glue might offer about a big improvement over not using anything as a decoupling agent. But here's the kicker. If it is only like 2% better than using regular old plain silicone (not glue) between sheets of drywall, then why would anyone want to pay 200% more for very little gains over something that you can already buy cheaply at the hardware store (silicone caulk). I mean, come on. There were music studios doing soundproofing way before these specialized products came about and I'm sure that silicone worked fine then. Why would silicone caulk not work now between drywall sheets? Green glue isn't even glue! Silicone is cheaper. So what, silicone is a tad more viscous. Big deal.
This is surely a troll attempt. Can't be serious!

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post #1350 of 1358 Old 10-09-2014, 11:41 PM
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stumbled on this quote today
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Ravnaas View Post
Silicone/rubbery materials don't tend to make good damping materials as they are usually (especially silicone, and most rubbers) very elastic, not viscoelastic.
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