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post #751 of 870 Old 05-24-2019, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
Folks - basement construction starts on May 30th. I have done a lot of reading on this thread and other threads and this is what I am planning. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Since the framers are already going to be on-site I am planning to outsource the construction of a fixed frame. On top of this, I am thinking that I can mount the silver ticket AT screen and the four surrounding panels.

The first picture in the attached shows the fixed frame that I am planning to have the framers construct. The 118 inches that you see is the 1x6 board I want to anchor on top of the studs on the top and bottom. On top of this I will mount the silver ticket 135 inch diagonal screen.

If you notice the side view the combined width of the 1x6 above plus the width of the silver ticket screen of 1.25 inches results in a 2.25 inches depth. This 2.25 inches depth will need to be covered by panels on left, right, top and bottom. I am not sure if I will get a ready made board of this size. I believe standard sizes are about 2 inches. So I will have a 0.25 inch where the screen will be protruding. I would ideally want a flush surface. Are there other options to minimize the protrusion (or) do you think when I wrap the black cloth around the panels, the 0.25 inches will be covered?

In any case interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
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Right off the bat, I don't believe there needs to be a lower 1x6 board. You might ask ack_bk again how he attached the lower portion of his Silver Ticket frame to the side 2x4's for security, but he just had the one flat faced top 2x6 spanning the length.

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post #752 of 870 Old 05-24-2019, 08:50 PM
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Right off the bat, I don't believe there needs to be a lower 2x6 board. You might ask ack_bk again how he attached the lower portion of his Silver Ticket frame to the side 2x4's for security, but he just had the one flat faced top 2x6 spanning the length.
Got it. That's certainly optional. @BIGmouthinDC had earlier recommended it may make sense to have one at the bottom since the silver ticket screen comes with anchors for the bottom too. So just to add some stability.

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post #753 of 870 Old 05-24-2019, 08:53 PM
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Got it. That's certainly optional. @BIGmouthinDC had earlier recommended it may make sense to have one at the bottom since the silver ticket screen comes with anchors for the bottom too. So just to add some stability.

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Sorry, I meant 1x6... edited above. You could do a 2x4 instead at the lower section for bottom screen mounting points That's once you have found the ideal height of the screen frame on the false wall.

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post #754 of 870 Old 05-24-2019, 08:56 PM
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I would NOT anchor to that design. It always comes back to that closet and it's framing and the closet projection from the wall. I would never stick a speaker into the closet. I think there
are other options that might work, depending on what's above and load on the structure. In my world I would overengineer the heck out of that, and invest there in materials, then do
Big's far superior minimal AT wall. And I would still flip the room and re-use the closet door for the entry door, at the end of the stairs.

I cant see all I need to see, nor know what's above, but the floor joists in the stair side of the basement, hint at what's the support structure and what might be possible.
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post #755 of 870 Old 05-24-2019, 08:59 PM
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I would NOT anchor to that design. It always comes back to that closet and it's framing and the closet projection from the wall. I would never stick a speaker into the closet. I think there
are other options that might work, depending on what's above and load on the structure. In my world I would overengineer the heck out of that, and invest there in materials, then do
Big's far superior minimal AT wall. And I would still flip the room and re-use the closet door for the entry door, at the end of the stairs.

I cant see all I need to see, nor know what's above, but the floor joists in the stair side of the basement, hint at what's the support structure and what might be possible.

I think they are taking the door frame out as best they can and leaving only the structural support beam(s) needed. The speaker won't be totally stuck in the closet. The rest of the wall will be "evened" out.

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post #756 of 870 Old 05-24-2019, 09:00 PM
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I would NOT anchor to that design. It always comes back to that closet and it's framing and the closet projection from the wall. I would never stick a speaker into the closet. I think there

are other options that might work, depending on what's above and load on the structure. In my world I would overengineer the heck out of that, and invest there in materials, then do

Big's far superior minimal AT wall. And I would still flip the room and re-use the closet door for the entry door, at the end of the stairs.



I cant see all I need to see, nor know what's above, but the floor joists in the stair side of the basement, hint at what's the support structure and what might be possible.
Tedd. I want to separate the location of the screen from the framing discussion. We have beaten the positioning of the screen whether it is on the closet side or the opposite side to death in the other thread. And frankly speaking anything I say regarding what they can do to the closet will be purely hypothetical at this point until the construction crew is here. Raising it up again here will only confuse everyone.

I would if possible just stick to the framing conversation here. Is there anything wrong in the design I am planning aka fixed frame followed by mounting of the screen regardless of whether it is on the closet side or opposite side?

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post #757 of 870 Old 05-24-2019, 10:05 PM
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It won't confuse a good many here, because someone like Big and others, will have the background, vision, and experience to understand where I am coming from.

Do I think that's optimally framed? No. But it might not be all that far off from what's achievable, if you want to stick to those speakers + and that room orientation
+ the closet framing. One of those three change, things improve audio-wise. The short timeline to a framing is also adding pressure and perhaps forcing you into
heading this direction.

I am not the only one critical of that. Issues I see, are the wrong choice of speaker, for the small space, and the room obstacles + length combination. The framing is overly
heavy for what it needs to be. There are nearfield boundaries that I would prefer not to be there, and could be potentially avoided.


You don't need the pair of 1x6 and all you need is the two posts. And you really don't need them either. Big's design proves that. But two post will do, since that closet corner is there to stay.

Dan, I get the drywall will come off the side of the closet. But that's still a pretty substantial post, and maybe a small steel post would reduce the profile as much as possible, if one used some
studs to brace and replace.
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post #758 of 870 Old 05-24-2019, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
It won't confuse a good many here, because someone like Big and others, will have the background, vision, and experience to understand where I am coming from.



Do I think that's optimally framed? No. But it might not be all that far off from what's achievable, if you want to stick to those speakers + and that room orientation

+ the closet framing. One of those three change, things improve audio-wise. The short timeline to a framing is also adding pressure and perhaps forcing you into

heading this direction.



I am not the only one critical of that. Issues I see, are the wrong choice of speaker, for the small space, and the room obstacles + length combination. The framing is overly

heavy for what it needs to be. There are nearfield boundaries that I would prefer not to be there, and could be potentially avoided.





You don't need the pair of 1x6 and all you need is the two posts. And you really don't need them either. Big's design proves that. But two post will do, since that closet corner is there to stay.



Dan, I get the drywall will come off the side of the closet. But that's still a pretty substantial post, and maybe a small steel post would reduce the profile as much as possible, if one used some

studs to brace and replace.
Here we go again with the speaker. I had discussed the speaker choice quite extensively and was recommended picking up the JBL 590s when they were on sale which I did. You keep going back to the same points again and again despite not being of any use at this juncture. Are you saying now that I need to return the speakers? Can we please move on and help address the actual questions here?

And the drywall is not going anywhere. I will need to discuss with the construction crew as to what can be done to the closet. The framing discussion is independent of this. I would prefer to focus on this at this time given that I have only 4 more days before the framers are here and am severely stressed trying to land the plane on this.


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post #759 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 04:11 AM
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I am ok with the speaker choice, but it kind of shifts my attention to that post. The JBL's are substantial and the pricing is very attractive. But the room is small and practically any speaker
would play reference level in it. My real issue with them is the depth they take up. I expect that was exactly the reason the dealer said he wouldn't have gone with them. If your sole
motive is cost, well those JBL's are mighty attractive, and they are also eating up room depth. You also might find they beam once in a while, but horns can be substantially good choices
for a large room with long throw distances, and multiple rows, and give you all that, at an attractive price point.

Yes, discuss with the framing crew. They won't have the knowledge as to what that post is, acoustically-wise. But they should have insight as to how the loads are supported, and
how and how much, to lose the post. I have what I think is a pretty good inkling of how everything is supported, but just can't see enough of what needs to be seen, where I need to see it, to make solid
recommendations, or solidly rule out the potential of losing the post. One reason to flip the room, is to put that post and it's acoustical issues behind seated heads. That is a valid workaround and acoustically
superior to having that post in the front of the room.

I am removing myself from your threads. My intent is not to stress you out. But I have addressed your questions, even given you justification as to why that's far from ideal to do things. I would take that room
in a slightly different direction, and that is all about a lot of remodel experience, and some experience at how to maximise a buck invested, and enough education to have been approached to do this on a paid
professional level. MM with the video might have seen something I cannot, and am not being given. All I see is precisely what I expected to see. But that upper short set of steps, is likely to be supported by a
doubled up set of floor joists, which might mean that post isn't load bearing. Second story loads, and roof loads, might be supported along with the stair landing, and being what looks to be 1950/60 construction,
the concrete floor thickness might be substantial enough to host those loads.

You also want to ideally host those speakers 6" off the AT screen surface to avoid timbre shifting. But that post is going to represent really early reflections, so that speaker has serious potential
to be a mess audio-wise. At least all three speakers are behind the AT screen, so they will timbre shift the same.
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post #760 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 04:39 AM
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@BIGmouthinDC
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A couple of things.

1. I have taken a video of the whole floor as it stands and posted the link below.


2. It is not a 1950 construction. House was constructed in 2000.

3. Almost all threads I have seen here with an AT screen put the speaker between an At screen and a wall. Not all of them have a 6 inch clearance. Example ack_bk construction has the same towers. The only difference I can see between his and mine is that my left speaker will be inside a closet (as the picture shows) but the aim is to a) relocate the door to the other side so that it will be open from the front and potentially from the back by not sheetrocking behind the speaker and b) find out from the construction crew if there is any option to get a more flat appearance.

4. At this time I am within the 30 day window for the JBLs and could return it if the consensus here is that they are not suited for the room.

I have attached all dimensions and photos and video that I have. My intent on this thread is to find out about the framing for the AT wall, not necessarily about the closet space which as I said above I cannot say a definite yay or nay until the construction crew gets here and tells me what options are there. If they say the closet door cannot be moved to the other side, the AT idea goes out of the window for that side and I will need to shift to the opposite side. However if they say they could do this in such a way that they move the closet door to the opposite side then we have an option where the left speaker will be in the closet space with wall partitions on the two sides (maybe even one if the right side of that wall looking from the front can be opened up if it's deemed non load bearing) and back potentially but could be left open instead of sheetrocking it.

Hopefully all this helps.



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post #761 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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the distance requirement for woven AT screens is less than Microperf. For this setup I wouldn't worry about it.
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post #762 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 06:03 AM
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Need a better picture of this area attached as a frame grab.

I don't think that corner is load bearing. The short section of stairs appears to be supported by the floor joists, and the beam, but I expect to see three 2x4's in that corner of the closet as that's just a strong frame corner, with enough backer to nail door trim to. The exposed floor joists hint at the opposite side of the stair wall hint that the floor is framed the same way in the theater area, but there's no real guaranteed the floor joists run that way in the theater, as there might be reasons to switch directions.


We don't see much in the way of concrete block foundations here anymore. But we also don't often see thick cement floors that some 50/60's era homes have. I moved a steel lolly post here, and one swing of a sledge hammer put me through the floor. Early 70's home, and there was maybe an inch of concrete there. Anyways the beam above was more then adequate an I actually shorten the span, so the engineering was limited to a new proper support pad, to move a steel support post to the end of the stairs, instead of it being planted in the circulation space. Turns out the support post wasn't even bearing much of a load, since it tapped out with ease. That beam now has a fully framed wall beneath it, and is far stronger then it ever was. Now that isn't exactly something I would recommend, but the fact framers are involved, means you have some professional advice shortly. And that might very well be the game changer, that solves a bunch of room issues, not a speaker swap.

There are definitely loads extending up above, and the framing beneath the stair landing show reflects that.
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post #763 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 06:13 AM
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the distance requirement for woven AT screens is less than Microperf. For this setup I wouldn't worry about it.
Jeff - I have posted a video and other pics. Does this help?
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post #764 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 06:42 AM
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BTW, you'll see all kinds of beautiful looking rooms, that an experienced knowledgeable eye will tell you, the video and often the audio are seriously
compromised. But there might be a whole slew of reasons for going in that direction. Laziness, too expensive to worry about correcting, an inability to
do something cost effectively, a lack of knowledge, too much well meaning advice and not enough professional level advice, a wife, a window that you
want kept... Sometimes dialled in advice, is all about just needing to get a read on what's important, what's not. You can host an equipment rack in that
closet, and a door elsewhere with relative ease. Relative ease meaning maybe a longer piece of electrical wire from one box to another, or some new studs
added. Might be $200 labor-wise for someone, while for myself, it is but $15-20 worth of materials and the time to do it. So the ability to DIY, can also shift
advice perspective.


Sometimes good enough is just that, but maybe the framers are going to have some good news for you, and any stress is simply wasted effort. I'm actually rooting
for you because if that corner goes with ease, or even with a bit of effort, that could be a substantial room. There's so much going for you with your reasonable
demands, that either room orientation could work. But why I like the window wall for the screen better is mostly about layout and circulation space outside the theater.
Instead of a big opening, that would be a nice long section of wall.

You can host an equipment rack in that closet, and a door elsewhere with relative ease. Relative ease meaning maybe a longer piece of electrical wire from one box to
another, or some new studs added. Might be $200 labor-wise for someone, while for myself, it is but $15-20 worth of materials and the time to do it. That sort of thing can
skew advice, in a good direction, or the wrong direction.
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post #765 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedd View Post
BTW, you'll see all kinds of beautiful looking rooms, that an experienced knowledgeable eye will tell you, the video and often the audio are seriously

compromised. But there might be a whole slew of reasons for going in that direction. Laziness, too expensive to worry about correcting, an inability to

do something cost effectively, a lack of knowledge, too much well meaning advice and not enough professional level advice, a wife, a window that you

want kept... Sometimes dialled in advice, is all about just needing to get a read on what's important, what's not. You can host an equipment rack in that

closet, and a door elsewhere with relative ease. Relative ease meaning maybe a longer piece of electrical wire from one box to another, or some new studs

added. Might be $200 labor-wise for someone, while for myself, it is but $15-20 worth of materials and the time to do it. So the ability to DIY, can also shift

advice perspective.





Sometimes good enough is just that, but maybe the framers are going to have some good news for you, and any stress is simply wasted effort. I'm actually rooting

for you because if that corner goes with ease, or even with a bit of effort, that could be a substantial room. There's so much going for you with your reasonable

demands, that either room orientation could work. But why I like the window wall for the screen better is mostly about layout and circulation space outside the theater.

Instead of a big opening, that would be a nice long section of wall.



You can host an equipment rack in that closet, and a door elsewhere with relative ease. Relative ease meaning maybe a longer piece of electrical wire from one box to

another, or some new studs added. Might be $200 labor-wise for someone, while for myself, it is but $15-20 worth of materials and the time to do it. That sort of thing can

skew advice, in a good direction, or the wrong direction.
Thank you but I would like to pivot the topic towards the frame design that I put forth to get input on whether I could still do as I proposed and am interested in hearing thoughts on that. It would be helpful to table the closet discussion for now. I have reposted below what I really need help on and would appreciate if we can help with this.

Folks - basement construction starts on May 30th. I have done a lot of reading on this thread and other threads and this is what I am planning. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Since the framers are already going to be on-site I am planning to outsource the construction of a fixed frame. On top of this, I am thinking that I can mount the silver ticket AT screen and the four surrounding panels.

The first picture in the attached shows the fixed frame that I am planning to have the framers construct. The 118 inches that you see is the 1x6 board I want to anchor on top of the studs on the top and bottom. On top of this I will mount the silver ticket 135 inch diagonal screen.

If you notice the side view the combined width of the 1x6 above plus the width of the silver ticket screen of 1.25 inches results in a 2.25 inches depth. This 2.25 inches depth will need to be covered by panels on left, right, top and bottom. I am not sure if I will get a ready made board of this size. I believe standard sizes are about 2 inches. So I will have a 0.25 inch where the screen will be protruding. I would ideally want a flush surface. Are there other options to minimize the protrusion (or) do you think when I wrap the black cloth around the panels, the 0.25 inches will be covered?
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Minimalist Approach to Screen Wall

Is the frame material exactly an inch and what material are you referring to that’s 2”? If you’re talking 2x stock it is 1.5”.

I just be missing something with your design. What’s the purpose for the material between the frame and the mounting surface?
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Is the frame material exactly an inch and what material are you referring to that’s 2”? If you’re talking 2x stock it is 1.5”.

I just be missing something with your design. What’s the purpose for the material between the frame and the mounting surface?
I meant using a 1x6 as a horizontal beam to which the screen can be hung. Adding this 1 inch to the 1.25 inch silver ticket depth gives 2.25 inches. I will need to construct side, top and bottom panels. The standard material I have seen for these are 2x4. So there will be a 0.25 inch protrusion on the screen. I am not sure I follow the last question. Can you elaborate?

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post #768 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
@BIGmouthinDC
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@Tedd

A couple of things.

1. I have taken a video of the whole floor as it stands and posted the link below.


2. It is not a 1950 construction. House was constructed in 2000.

3. Almost all threads I have seen here with an AT screen put the speaker between an At screen and a wall. Not all of them have a 6 inch clearance. Example ack_bk construction has the same towers. The only difference I can see between his and mine is that my left speaker will be inside a closet (as the picture shows) but the aim is to a) relocate the door to the other side so that it will be open from the front and potentially from the back by not sheetrocking behind the speaker and b) find out from the construction crew if there is any option to get a more flat appearance.

4. At this time I am within the 30 day window for the JBLs and could return it if the consensus here is that they are not suited for the room.

I have attached all dimensions and photos and video that I have. My intent on this thread is to find out about the framing for the AT wall, not necessarily about the closet space which as I said above I cannot say a definite yay or nay until the construction crew gets here and tells me what options are there. If they say the closet door cannot be moved to the other side, the AT idea goes out of the window for that side and I will need to shift to the opposite side. However if they say they could do this in such a way that they move the closet door to the opposite side then we have an option where the left speaker will be in the closet space with wall partitions on the two sides (maybe even one if the right side of that wall looking from the front can be opened up if it's deemed non load bearing) and back potentially but could be left open instead of sheetrocking it.

Hopefully all this helps.



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Unless there is some structural surprise noticed by the contractors, I dont see why, from that video anyway, more wall studwork than just the door frame cannot be taken out and the wall mostly, though perhaps not completely, redrywalled to a more even appearance once the right side of the screen wall is extended.

I echo Jeff's sentiment about the AT screen. You should be a-okay. You don't need to quit your 590's.

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post #769 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
I meant using a 1x6 as a horizontal beam to which the screen can be hung. Adding this 1 inch to the 1.25 inch silver ticket depth gives 2.25 inches. I will need to construct side, top and bottom panels. The standard material I have seen for these are 2x4. So there will be a 0.25 inch protrusion on the screen. I am not sure I follow the last question. Can you elaborate?

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What he means is that dimensional lumber is not those exact size. 1x lumber is .75 inch thick, not 1 inch. And a 2x4 is actually 1.5 x 3.5.

Also, using 2x4s for the actual fabric panel construction is serious overkill. Most use 1x2 poplar or rip pieces of 5/4 FJP (finger joined pine) in half.

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post #770 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by 4fit? View Post
What he means is that dimensional lumber is not those exact size. 1x lumber is .75 inch thick, not 1 inch. And a 2x4 is actually 1.5 x 3.5.

Also, using 2x4s for the actual fabric panel construction is serious overkill. Most use 1x2 poplar or rip pieces of 5/4 FJP (finger joined pine) in half.

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Got it. I can work that around based on actual measurements. But is the design ok?

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post #771 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 08:44 AM
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Minimalist Approach to Screen Wall

The design for the screen will work just fine, just make sure you’re planning off of actual dimensions. If you’re lucky enough to have 5/4 finger jointed pine that’s all you need. Around these parts 1x is all we have with an actual dimension of 3/4”.

I’d encourage you to consider the the even more minimalistic approach that BIG introduced a few years ago. I think it was on the White Oaks build. Instead of using horizontal boards from post to post use 3 box frames mounted to the ceiling. You don’t need the screen mounted along the entire width.

This approach accomplishes a couple of things. First of all it’s minimalist and less intrusive. It also lets you alter the position of screen mounting relative to the posts. I don’t think you mentioned how you are going to actually mount it. The common method is using French cleats. The cleats themselves are another 1/4” or so of depth so as you’ve noticed, getting all of hose 1/4” here and 1/2” there measurements precise is very difficult. This way you can mount the boxes to the ceiling, recessed back from the posts far enough to allow the frame to rest nicely on the posts. Otherwise you will find that you’ll need to add some shimming to the bottom of the frame where it meets the bottom horizontal to keep it perfectly plumb - if not the top of the screen will protrude out relative to the bottom. This will also solve your problem of keeping the screen and panels flush. This way you simply use a material the same thickness of the screen frame.

Also, using horizontal boards mounted in that way will prevent the screen from resting flush against the posts. I like the idea of the frame sitting flush to the posts. This way you can introduce a little Velcro to keep it from bouncing.

Have a look at the last few posts in my thread (link in my sig). I’m not done yet but have gotten to the construction of the boxes. Perhaps BIG can chime in - I know I scooped the idea from one of his builds just don’t recall if it was White Oaks or not.
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post #772 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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But is the design ok?
I'm not sure I understand it. Usually screen wall framing is one level totally flat. Your diagram seems to show the horizontals in front of the verticals. Not sure how the screen and fabric panels sit on the frame evenly.

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post #773 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 09:22 AM
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I'm not sure I understand it. Usually screen wall framing is one level totally flat. You diagram seems to show the horizontals in front of the verticals. Not sure how the screen and fabric panels sit on the frame evenly.
Ok. This Is the kind of feedback I needed. So when I ask the construction crew to build the structure, should I ask them to not have the vertical studs? In other words I am trying to leverage their help, what exactly would I ask them to build so that I can some some effort for me later when I start creating the panels?

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post #774 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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One screen wall to go.
three easy pieces and some furring added to the wall.
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post #775 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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fully dressed (2011)
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post #776 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 10:01 AM
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One screen wall to go.
three easy pieces and some furring added to the wall.
Thank you. Looks like back to original design you started with

The changes I see to mine may be to your recommendation for silver screen a) adding a horizontal at the bottom and for my own benefit b) anchoring a vertical piece right in the middle to hold up the horizontal so that it does not arch between the long span.

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post #777 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 10:29 AM
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One screen wall to go.
three easy pieces and some furring added to the wall.
Jeff - A clarification. I see that at the bottom and top you have two square pieces. Since the screen support is flush with the 2X4 and the top and bottom pieces protrude, did you not have an issue when you had to mount the panels? As in how did the protrusion from the square plates not interrupt the panel placement and also did not protrude further than the screen and panel.
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post #778 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
Jeff - A clarification. I see that at the bottom and top you have two square pieces. Since the screen support is flush with the 2X4 and the top and bottom pieces protrude, did you not have an issue when you had to mount the panels? As in how did the protrusion from the square plates not interrupt the panel placement and also did not protrude further than the screen and panel.
Look at his pics again. Those pieces only protrude past the post from side to side, not from front to back. They won't cause any issues with the screen or fabric panels. And those aren't 2x4 boards.

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post #779 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 10:39 AM
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Look at his pics again. Those pieces only protrude past the post from side to side, not from front to back. They won't cause any issues with the screen or fabric panels. And those aren't 2x4 boards.

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Got it. So what would happen to the left and right protrusions when you put the panels?

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post #780 of 870 Old 05-25-2019, 11:36 AM
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You’re butting the panels against the screen frame which is in front of the protrusions.
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