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post #301 of 320 Old 02-12-2019, 08:38 AM
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Barry, I went to your website last evening and viewed some of your older works and there is a noticeable difference between your 720p and the 1080P content. I doubt you would see it in on a 1080 native display but the detail in the reef is obvious on a 4K panel and even more obvious in the Rift when the virtual perspective is blown up to a huge screen similar to an IMAX theater screen. The image quality of my test rendered out to 4K60fps is really impressive which is why I want to test the old GoPro 3D rig at 4K 15fps. The insta360 cam at 5.7K30 is even better yet. I don't have the UW housing for my Vuze 360 camera but I can generate an 8K image in You Tube with that. I just can't see the results yet. Everything I have pretty much tops out at 4K native.

I was not successful at finding an app for playing YT 360VR. I did find one but discovered the GUI did not allow an easy path the YT channels like the people claimed. Apparently the app used to but last summer Google sued the company and made them pull it down because it was competition. Google Cardboard, vs, Facebook's Oculus, or HTC Vive. The only way to view that content in 3D VR is to download the YT and view it from a local storage. This limitation only applied to 360VR and 180VR. It does not apply to playing YT normal 3D or YT VR with the navigation pan and scan mode. That I can do but that misses out on true VR.

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post #302 of 320 Old 02-12-2019, 09:01 AM
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Don, I'm somewhat puzzled in that I have never at anytime uploaded any content to YouTube in 720p. I've always used 1080 sbs. So, it must be something that YouTube is doing to my older stuff.

However, as I said in the previous post about 720 60p being equal or superior to 1080 from a projector, I would not expect the same on a 4K VR device. Again, I would suggest for 3D GP content, shoot at 2.7K and upscale. Don't bother with 4K 15fps!
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post #303 of 320 Old 02-12-2019, 03:03 PM
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Barry, I think it was some really old video you had that was 720P60.



Anyway- I did get the camera in the pool with it set to 4K15fps and now agree with you. The image quality was not good enough to justify the low frame rate. Reminded me back in the day when I shot super8 at 18fps. The flicker was bad but paused the image was just similar to the 2.7K. And, I stuck the Hero7 on and looked at it and the image was way better so it must be the better sensor and lens in the Hero 7 Black.

I was able to create a timeline sequence in Edius for 3D at 4K15 which is how I evaluated the quality. I could see it in 2D or 3D. But I could not see it in 3D in the Rift. So next I tried to render the output in T/B and discovered it would not let me render unless I changed the files to 29.97 fps. but then the rendered video played strange. All in all it was a failed experiment and will stick to what you suggested.

I sure wish they made a twin camera housing for the Hero 7! If I get ambitious, I may build one. (two single housings on a tray) More incentive to do that now that I have a way to play 4K30fps 3D in the Rift. I already tested the 3D and have a tray that mounts on a gimbal for the Hero7 3D. It works good enough with sound sync. The Hero 7 is supposed to be water proof up to 15 ft but I don't trust it. So I use the housings.

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post #304 of 320 Old 02-12-2019, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
Barry, I think it was some really old video you had that was 720P60.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YceZMTzNdLs&t=32s


Anyway- I did get the camera in the pool with it set to 4K15fps and now agree with you. The image quality was not good enough to justify the low frame rate. Reminded me back in the day when I shot super8 at 18fps. The flicker was bad but paused the image was just similar to the 2.7K. And, I stuck the Hero7 on and looked at it and the image was way better so it must be the better sensor and lens in the Hero 7 Black.

I was able to create a timeline sequence in Edius for 3D at 4K15 which is how I evaluated the quality. I could see it in 2D or 3D. But I could not see it in 3D in the Rift. So next I tried to render the output in T/B and discovered it would not let me render unless I changed the files to 29.97 fps. but then the rendered video played strange. All in all it was a failed experiment and will stick to what you suggested.

I sure wish they made a twin camera housing for the Hero 7! If I get ambitious, I may build one. (two single housings on a tray) More incentive to do that now that I have a way to play 4K30fps 3D in the Rift. I already tested the 3D and have a tray that mounts on a gimbal for the Hero7 3D. It works good enough with sound sync. The Hero 7 is supposed to be water proof up to 15 ft but I don't trust it. So I use the housings.
Oh yea, I forgot about that video. I thought you were referring to 3D ones and, of course, that one is 2D. I took it with a simple point and shoot in 2011 and the video is 720. Youtube messed up the audio and cut off the first few minutes of music.

Your analogy of 15fps looking like Super 8 is spot on. I knew you wouldn't like it.

I really think that if you want to do 3D with a GP, you should keep it simple and just stick to what works. Use the GP housing and the 3+ Black at 2.7K 29.97p. It's really good!! If you spend the time and effort building a custom housing for the 7, you're going to end up with the same genlock issues we've discussed before. Why screw around with this. Perhaps, I have a higher opinion of the 3+ quality because I only use raw and flat settings on the WB and color and I know you don't like to do this. But believe me, it makes a huge difference, as it gives you much better dynamic range and bitrate. Using the flat WB also eliminates the disparity you can get between the 2 cameras.
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post #305 of 320 Old 02-12-2019, 11:39 PM
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Hey- I do use Raw Flat! I know the advantages, especially for video shot underwater where our color is filtered by the water itself and the distance it travels. What you may have hard me before claim that I like the color used by the new Hero 6 and 7's for routine shooting. I also happen to prefer it on the iphone XS Max, which shoots video in 4K better quality than the Hero7! The only time I believe it pays to use Raw Flat in air shoots is when you plan for a cinematic mood color LUT that is different than GoPro color. I rare ever use that because just about everything I shoot is for documentary and I want the normal natural look and the built in color LUT is damn good if your WB is also right for the lighting of the environment.

I disagree that raw flat has higher bit rate than gopro color. BT709 remains 709 regardless of the LUT applied. The real purpose of starting from raw flat is you can apply a LUT from a known starting point. Applying a LUT from video that already has another LUT will not result in the purpose of the second LUT.

I know most of your work is at one color temperature lighting but when I am shooting while snorkeling, my light color temperature changes constantly as the greatest disparity in white balance occurs between air and water and greatly as you go from surface to 10 to 15 ft deep. So to balance that out, I use key frames to adjust the blue vs red in the scene. Underwater the two cameras can suffer a mismatch when I use my UW light to pop out detail and color under ledges. Here is where I have had to use two color balance corrections with keyframes, one for L and different one for R. Most of the time that is not necessary. I think it is because my UW light is off to the top side of the right cam and it is brighter and redder than the left cam where the light travels longer.

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post #306 of 320 Old 02-13-2019, 10:08 AM
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Don, I do now recall you saying you only use GP color for air shoots. I also mispoke, in that the higher bitrate is a function of Protunes and not color choice within Protunes. What I should have said is that raw/flat color profile in Protunes increases dynamic range, as it decreases contrast allowing much more detail to be preserved. However, for docu. work in many cases, maximizing dynamic range isn't a necessity, so I can see why you might not need to be concerned with it. But, it's definitely something to consider when shooting scenes with high variation between highlights and shadows. Pretty much all of my work requires maxing the dynamic range.

I can definitely relate to your challenges of having to match the 2 cameras while trying to combine red filters and external lights and the keyframing necessary to achieve this. A lot of work, indeed!! I think my most labor intensive one was a Bahamas shipwreck scene where the left 2/3 of the frame was wreck and the right 1/3 was water. And, of course, the elements were shifting as I was swimming along the wreck. I had to create a few keyframed tracking masks to adjust the hue of the water, which had taken on a lot of red from the filter. That part had to be shifted to blue without interfering with the red/rust color of the wreck- it was a bitch!
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post #307 of 320 Old 02-13-2019, 03:59 PM
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Well the real solution for increasing dynamic range is what the newer cameras are doing by adding HDR. Pretty impressive. The new iphone XS has this in 4K and so does the insta 360 OneX. I have heard hints that the Vuze XR will add this. They already have added ambisonic sound now. But unfortunately, there is no word on the Vuze+ to add these features. The Hero 7 Black has HDR now but not on video that I know of. Only for still photos when ProTunes is on and the EV is a - setting.

While you can do your tricks with expanding the dynamic range and color grading using traveling masks it is a heck of a lot of work and I never want to spend the time doing that as an amateur. It was bad enough when I had to do that and was getting paid. Never really made any money off those clients. But HDR works at the pixel level and that is far better and a huge time saver.

When I shoot a 360 with the insta One X the sun in the blue sky is defined and tight while the rest of the world is properly exposed and even the detail in the shadows can be seen. Without HDR the sun will appear like a huge blob in the sky with the center of that blob all white. The rest of the world is under exposed.

The downside is the insta 360 has a couple of annoying artifacts and lens flares. Beyond 2 ft from the camera they have the stitching under control now bit the best way to make a lens flare disappear is to position the camera so that the sun in in one of the two stitch lines and let the overlap remove the flare.

Anyway I just ordered a couple of U/W cases for the Hero 7 and plan to make a 3D bench for shooting 4K 3D, frame synced.

Test of the air frame went well. I shot at 4K60fps. Edius wouldn't recognize the files because GoPro H7 saves in HEVC. So I re-encoded the two files in Adobe encoder to h264. That fixed the Edius problem. Then I lined them up with sound sync in a 4K 60 fps timeline. My machine would play in real time so I had to use proxy mode which allowed me to play the timeline. Did a number of right to left and left to right sync motion and it looked really good. One frame every 6 was out of sync bu 1/120 of a second. I'm happy with that. Printing the 4K60fps file now. Rendering at 100Mbs.

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post #308 of 320 Old 02-13-2019, 04:28 PM
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If you're using Edius, you may be able to achieve far superior playback capabilities by converting the clips to an Edius friendly interem codec: GVHQX. H.264 requires much more work for your processor than GVHQX. It is also a VERY high quality codec. I learned this trick from one of the pros on the Edius GV forum. I've been using it ever since. When I do my final renders, I then output back to H.264 .mp4. GREAT workflow! Nothing I can see lost in the conversion either.

You do this conversion by adding your files to the bin, them right clicking and choosing convert from the popular menu. It takes a little time to do the conversion, but not that long and is well worth it. After the conversion is done, you then add the new converted file to the timeline. I use it for all my 8K time lapse sequences.

As for 4K 60p, I'm not sure that you can do this with your version of Edius. You may need version 9.
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post #309 of 320 Old 02-14-2019, 09:35 AM
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Barry I'm on ver 7.53 and I can't even add the GoPro files for Hero 7B 4K60 (HEVC) to Edius bin. Those are HEVC right out of the GoPro Protunes. The work flow I used is the adobe Media encoder. It has all the known codecs and can convert anything to anything. It is automatically updated every couple weeks. I tried to load the GoPro files into Power Director but I couldn't figure out how to pair the two for 3D. Then I tried Vegas and it didn't recognize them in Vegas 13. I tried Magix and it wanted to sell me the HEVC codec. Adobe Media encoder converter came free with my adobe Premier Pro subscription.

I only continue to use Edius for the traditional 3D edting. I do all my 4K 2D and VR 2D and 3D in adobe PP.

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post #310 of 320 Old 02-14-2019, 09:42 AM
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I figured you were primarily using Premier these days. But, even in Premier you might find that some codecs work better than others for timeline play. Grass Valley HQX is a well recognized interem codec and might even be available for conversion in Premier.
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post #311 of 320 Old 02-15-2019, 08:19 AM
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The way the media encoder converter works is it recognizes a much larger number of file formats and codecs but outputs a smaller number for the editor. It relies of hardware power for performance. So, I see outputs for HEVC h265, and h264 but GoPro Pro Tunes in 4K60 is not recognized for an output. GV is not in the list for outputs either but fortunately, it recognizes the GV codecs for conversion. Premiere does no conversion on input. If you select a GoPro Protunes file it is supposed to trigger the Media Encoder automatically and convert it to the Premiere compatible. That always worked in 2018 versions but for some reason if generated an error message in 2019. Might be a bug they will fix. Regardless, I just opened the Media encoder stand alone app and converted it to a compatible format for Premiere.

FYI- I have Vegas Pro v13, Power Director V16, Magix, Edius 7.53, and adobe Premiere Pro CC2019 as my editing packages. Each has it's specialties.

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post #312 of 320 Old 02-25-2019, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post
I got official Optoma DLP Link glasses yesterday and the 3D improved significantly. The blacks are much better (as good as the Monster vision!!!!) than cheaper 3rd party DLPs which tells me that Optoma has fine tuned their glasses to their projectors. Also the glasses are much bigger (at least 25-50% more) than others and fit much better on my prescription glasses.

Interesting, that's a third party OEM product (known in Europe as "Hi-Shock XXX Heaven") Optoma has apparently adopted.


As someone who's has gotten used to VESA 3D via RF on my old Optoma HD 83(00) (and has avoided DLP Link glasses like the plague) you seemed to be very much in favor of VESA 3D RF and against DLP Link, too, but now changed your mind and took a 180° turn. Interesting.


I'm currently considering the upcoming BenQ HT5550 aka W5700 (Europe) front projector as a home theater upgrade but first and foremost for 4K UHD Blu-ray content because I don't feel that confident about DLP link 3D only.

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post #313 of 320 Old 03-03-2019, 08:44 AM
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Now that my sound and furniture upgrades are mostly done along with some recent room treatments and I appear to be doing movie prop decorating and the like, I've been giving some thought to the screen.

I've got a DaLite pulldown that normally stays down and suffers from some minor ripples being non-tensioned. If you pay attention during side pans, these can be noticed. I can't go fixed frame due to the window and bookcase in the room so I've been looking at tensioned electrics. They're not cheap of course, but I'm financially in a much better place than when I got the screen 12 years ago.

What I did notice is that I can get a 115" 2.35:1 screen for a similar or even lower price than the 92" same size as the existing 16:9 one I've been looking at. It's the same height, just wider. It'd block parts of the bookcase (current one bridges the two halves rather nicely, but the cabinets also limit the ultimate height of the screen, but then the speakers are already almost to screen height so it works). Since it's electric, I can just put it up with the AVR trigger when not in use.

What I'm questioning is whether the Epson hybrid 4K with 3D models that can use memory zoom to make use of 2.35:1 without a Panavision lens actually look good enough in that mode to be worth the wider screen? I'm also not sure what distance I'd need offhand to mount it to fill the screen in that mode. It has the lens shift I need to mount it on the steel beam box in the room (in the way otherwise and that's been a good place to hide the wires), but I'd probably need a stronger mount since the current one is using toggle bolts (Current projector weighs 14 pounds and it and the previous one have been stable there for 12 years now including several head hits that didn't even make the mount blink, but the 4K shifters weigh closer to 25 pounds and I'm not sure if it would be stable enough for that. Based on the current 3100's zoom, I'm not sure if it could even manually zoom enough for 115" at that location. It'd be somewhat close, I think. I'd gave to consult one if those calculators to be sure).

I'm pretty happy with the 2K picture at 9 feet (MLP) with the existing 92" 16:9, but I'm less sure how the zoomed 2.35 one would look. I don't know if the pseudo 4K capability would make up for the zoom and/or whether it helps any for non-4k material, including 3D. Any comments or suggestions?

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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post #314 of 320 Old 05-28-2019, 02:15 AM
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Projector Central just published a review of the BenQ HT5550 (W5700 in Europe) - https://www.projectorcentral.com/Benq-HT5550-review.htm - and here is their take on 3D performance:


3D Viewing. Like a growing number of 4K projectors, the HT5550 supports 3D at 1080p using DLP-Link glasses. As with any projector with 3D, the image isn't as bright as with any 2D mode, but I found it bright enough for comfortable viewing in the dark with a 90-inch image on my 1.0 gain screen. Even a low level of ambient light washes out the image noticeably at that size, however. I saw no crosstalk in my tests, and only the typical level of 3D-related motion artifacts for current generation projectors. The 3D picture was highly watchable, with nicely saturated color.

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post #315 of 320 Old 05-28-2019, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
Projector Central just published a review of the BenQ HT5550 (W5700 in Europe) - https://www.projectorcentral.com/Benq-HT5550-review.htm - and here is their take on 3D performance:


3D Viewing. Like a growing number of 4K projectors, the HT5550 supports 3D at 1080p using DLP-Link glasses. As with any projector with 3D, the image isn't as bright as with any 2D mode, but I found it bright enough for comfortable viewing in the dark with a 90-inch image on my 1.0 gain screen. Even a low level of ambient light washes out the image noticeably at that size, however. I saw no crosstalk in my tests, and only the typical level of 3D-related motion artifacts for current generation projectors. The 3D picture was highly watchable, with nicely saturated color.
Doesn't sound so great
Looking forward to reviews of the LS700-4k...
On the other side of the spectrum here's Projector Centrals take on the Epson 5050ub/e:

3D Viewing. I'm not a huge 3D guy, but came away very impressed with the HC 5050UB/UBe's 3D playback. The projector's two 3D modes provide exemplary brightness for dark-room viewing, though neither looked great out of the box color-wise, with both leaning a little too red. Some on-the-fly adjustment of the Color Temperature and Skin Tone controls got the 3D Cinema mode looking fairly good. An episode of the BBC series Dr. No on 3D Blu-ray showed nice skin tones and natural-looking foliage, with not a hint of crosstalk and only modest panning artifacts. (Frame interpolation was available up to its High setting, but leaving it on its Low setting provided some relief without introducing soap opera sheen.) I had a similar experience with that old stand-by, Avatar, which looked great in the modern lab settings as well as in the many rainforest/jungle scenes.

Frank714: Sorry for stealing your format- it's for the sake of continuity
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post #316 of 320 Old 05-29-2019, 06:47 AM
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An older solution that could help you to continue use of 3D-RF glasses with a DLP Link-only DLP front projector


Oops...moved to the existing thread I obviously had forgotten about: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/194-3d-tech-talk/3005200-has-someone-experience-dlp-link-converter-vesa-3d.html#post58112062


Curious, Optoma's latest HD29H - apparently only available in Europe? - still offers a VESA "3D Sync" port for 3D-RF.

I was under the impression that 3D Sync ports for 3D-RF glasses had become extinct for DLP projectors, but Optoma's latest example looks like there might still be hope to see a comeback.


Bearing in mind that next to Vivitek's H1188 this is yet another sub-1,000 $ DLP projector featuring a 3D sync port for optimal 3D performance (IMHO 3D-RF glasses are and remain state-of-the-art), I absolutely fail to understand why DLP projectors twice that price (or higher) have abandoned that particular feature.


In my opinion, VESA 3D Sync ports should be mandatory for the more expensive DLP front projectors!!!


(Don't know what kind of license agreements Texas Instruments has with the 4K UHD DLP manufacturers in order to push their DLP Link 3D technology as the exclusive 3D feature but that should stop)
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post #317 of 320 Old 06-12-2019, 11:19 AM
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New 3D supporting (DLP Link) front projector from Vivitek announced at InfoComm 2019:


https://www.projectorcentral.com/inf...vivitek_dh3660


Full HD only, 4,500 lumens, laser light source

"It is only about things that do not interest one that one can give a really unbiased opinion, which is no doubt the reason why an unbiased opinion is always absolutely valueless." Oscar Wilde
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post #318 of 320 Old 06-12-2019, 12:29 PM
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4500 lumens with 3D... That would be bright. Too bad it's DLP (I see rainbows). Or does that matter with a laser version?

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 11-01-19)
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post #319 of 320 Old 06-12-2019, 03:52 PM
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Intriguing, but if it's not 4K, why is it being mentioned in this thread?

I wasn't impressed with my first projector (DLP) as the 3-D image was too dark and the rainbows were noticeable. I switched to an LCD Epson model and am happy with it (no crosstalk problem either!) But... at 4500 lumens, and with laser light, maybe this could work. I look forward to hearing reports.
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post #320 of 320 Old 06-13-2019, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
Intriguing, but if it's not 4K, why is it being mentioned in this thread?

Frankly, I'm currently not aware of a thread featuring new, 3D supporting DLP projectors.


In the particular case of this new Vivitek the access panel on the back seems to feature what looks like a Vesa "3D Sync" port for 3D-RF operation which has become scarce for new DLP front projectors and the official specs are somewhat inconclusive.



Edit: Found the above image with higher resolution, but it looks as if the position of the Vesa "3D Sync" port is empty!

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