Stream TV Glasses-Free 3D at CES 2018 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 155 Old 02-20-2018, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Daytraders View Post
6/8 feet like some 3d oleds give now
I've never seen that on my oled, except perhaps for a few seconds of star destroyer in The Force Awakens. Can you recommend a couple of titles with deep reaching popout?
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post #62 of 155 Old 02-20-2018, 02:25 PM
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I've never seen that on my oled, except perhaps for a few seconds of star destroyer in The Force Awakens. Can you recommend a couple of titles with deep reaching popout?
Sammys tale for one, maybe you not got your 3d setup right, if your sitting 6 or 7 feet back, there are loads of 3d titles that feel as thou there just in front of your eyes, even underwater 3d demos from 5 years back gave that effect.
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post #63 of 155 Old 02-20-2018, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Daytraders View Post
Sammys tale for one, maybe you not got your 3d setup right, if your sitting 6 or 7 feet back, there are loads of 3d titles that feel as thou there just in front of your eyes, even underwater 3d demos from 5 years back gave that effect.
I don't have a lot of 3D titles yet, and I suspect that my taste in movies runs conservative for 3D effect. I appreciate your quick response, but can you recommend a non-kids title?

Here is what I've seen so far on my TV:
Top Gun
Star Trek Into Darkness
Star Trek Beyond
The Force Awakens
Rogue One
Prometheus
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Just a suggestion about the 2D to 3D conversion. If you haven't already customized the 2D to 3D conversion give the following settings a try -- point-of view setting to -5 or -6 and the depth setting to +12 to +17. With these settings I'm now watching everything 2D converted to 3D. LG did not market their 3D properly! I'm still flabbergasted at just how good this TV is, especially with 3D and 2D to 3D conversion.
I will give these settings a try too. Are there any titles in particular that convert well? As you can tell from my list, I tend to lean toward sci-fi.
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post #64 of 155 Old 02-25-2018, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Daytraders View Post
Sammys tale for one, maybe you not got your 3d setup right, if your sitting 6 or 7 feet back, there are loads of 3d titles that feel as thou there just in front of your eyes, even underwater 3d demos from 5 years back gave that effect.


a cool 2013 streaming demo, Pairs well with a chilled single malt to help dull your quality expectations.....


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post #65 of 155 Old 03-07-2018, 02:20 PM
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I wonder whether this technology will be used in computers and computer screens and in mobile devices and game consoles. You'd have to have graphics processing capable of powering it. Of course, I wonder how odd it'd look using a tablet or phone with this technology in public. Hopefully the field of view isn't wide enough that everyone near you can see the 3D image popping off of your screen. Think of the privacy implications. Of course, I must admit that my understanding of this technology is very low.

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post #66 of 155 Old 03-07-2018, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Drew Neilson View Post
I wonder whether this technology will be used in computers and computer screens and in mobile devices and game consoles. You'd have to have graphics processing capable of powering it. Of course, I wonder how odd it'd look using a tablet or phone with this technology in public. Hopefully the field of view isn't wide enough that everyone near you can see the 3D image popping off of your screen. Think of the privacy implications. Of course, I must admit that my understanding of this technology is very low.

Yeah. I've heard on some of the test models if you're really careful and delicate you can actually slide the image into the palm of your hand when it pops off the screen. I don't understand it either but I heard it's because of the Carbonaro Effect.
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post #67 of 155 Old 03-07-2018, 09:10 PM
 
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Looking forward to seeing this. I hope they have the wherewithal to include LFR to HFR in their 2D to 3D conversion chips.

Glasses-free 3D is great but it needs to be HFR (4K+ 120hz per eye ideally) to really get me excited.
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post #68 of 155 Old 03-09-2018, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Neilson View Post
I wonder whether this technology will be used in computers and computer screens and in mobile devices and game consoles. You'd have to have graphics processing capable of powering it. Of course, I wonder how odd it'd look using a tablet or phone with this technology in public. Hopefully the field of view isn't wide enough that everyone near you can see the 3D image popping off of your screen. Think of the privacy implications. Of course, I must admit that my understanding of this technology is very low.
I think it is highly unlikely to find it's way into mobile devices, there are a few reasons :
- thickness : mobile devices are constantly in a war to make phones thinner than their competitors. The type of glasses-free 3D display used by StreamTV requires a thick layer of optics on top of the regular display. Making the phone thicker and heavier than the 2D equivalent
- 2D touch HMI and 3D incompatibility : trying to touch a 3D image with a 2D interface is a receipe for disaster. When Nintendo designed the 3DS console, they experimented with a 3D screen for the touch panel, but from their own report (the console's announcement conference), they realized it didn't work and kept the touch screen 2D.
The issue is also experienced by people playing video games using 3D Vision (forces a 3D rendering on games originally designed for 2D), there are often issues with aiming due to the weapon sights being drawn in 2D while watching a 3D image at variable depth (like aiming real guns in real life, you can't use stereo vision, you must close an eye and line up your eye with the sight). The exact same issue happens in aiming the mouse cursor over menus and objects when trying to interact with the 3D world with the 2D mouse pointer.
Whenever such a situation arise, uses must use tricks to artificially flatten the 3D image, or move the object to the screen's depth before being able to properly use the interface (something which isn't always usable).
As an additional issue, there is the depth violation issue whenever the screen is displaying an image popping out of the display : if you cover the image popping out in the foreground with your fingers in the background, the finger (supposed to be behind) visually blocks the image (supposed to be in front), something which your brain is absolutely sure is impossible. The depth violation is visually extremely disturbing (your eyes break focus trying to figure out what they're looking at, you instantly loose the 3D effect and often can't figure out what you're looking at), and often leads to headaches if you force yourself to look at it.

Specialized glasses free 3D using parallax barriers (same type as Nintendo 3Ds) has been available for years, it's very compact, cheap and works very well for single users on mobile devices since it's very easy to position yourself in the sweetspot. There have been a few specialized 3D phones with a stereoscopic camera and glasses-free 3D screen during the height of the 3D hype. They were nice gadgets, but overall people didn't care about them, the 3D effect didn't bring enough value to be maintained on the next generation of phones.
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post #69 of 155 Old 03-19-2018, 06:36 AM
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A company in South Africa is specializing in glass-free 3D technology:

http://k3dx.co.za/Intro/
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post #70 of 155 Old 03-19-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
A company in South Africa is specializing in glass-free 3D technology:

http://k3dx.co.za/Intro/
Thanks for the link Bob.

Still seems to focus on smaller displays (handhelds) and video billboards. No mention of consumer home video that I could find.

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post #71 of 155 Old 03-19-2018, 11:12 AM
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Thanks for the link Bob.

Still seems to focus on smaller displays (handhelds) and video billboards. No mention of consumer home video that I could find.
Yeah, I looked around as well, didn't see firm product offerings. I thought it was interesting that they have a large 65" portrait 4K display. It's portrait mode only, which tells you something about the difficulty of creating a 16:9 display to hold the complete image visually from one position. I'm guessing they put a lot of work and investment into this several years ago when 3D was everywhere, and now that they have some products to offer for manufacturing, nobody wants to put up money to do it.

The only thing I've seen commercially, and I have one, is this 3D cellphone overlay. There are many versions for different phones available. It works, but is a real pain to use, so I hardly use it.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071VSFQCB/
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post #72 of 155 Old 04-30-2018, 09:27 PM
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Any new info on this? I want to get a 4K HDR TV before September and saw this tech at CES. I was watching Pardon the Interruption and some video games in glasses free 3-D and the guy told me the tech would be available this year to different companies. I am looking at 55 inches. Can someone link me to any release dates for glasses free 3-D HDR tvs?
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post #73 of 155 Old 05-01-2018, 07:15 AM
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Any new info on this? I want to get a 4K HDR TV before September and saw this tech at CES. I was watching Pardon the Interruption and some video games in glasses free 3-D and the guy told me the tech would be available this year to different companies. I am looking at 55 inches. Can someone link me to any release dates for glasses free 3-D HDR tvs?
There is only one company that is/was apparently developing 3D TVs/monitors without glasses. See the link. You might want to contact them and report back to us. My guess is their products are not commercially available, and if they are, the price is not cost effective. http://www.ultra-d.com/support/50-pr...h-soc-install/

Other links regarding Ultra-D
http://televisions.reviewed.com/feat...bye-to-glasses

Here is a list of companies that had been authorized to sell them: http://www.ultra-d.com/where-to-buy/

They got close to selling them, then the 4K market took over and that is the end of the story for now anyway.
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post #74 of 155 Old 05-01-2018, 06:43 PM
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Wow, thanks for the links Bob. The guy told me the 55 inch would be $2500. I agree that is not a friendly price but I was really impressed with the tech and I have been playing on my glasses free 3DS for years and love it. I will email them and report back any response thanks.
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post #75 of 155 Old 05-01-2018, 10:11 PM
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There's also Rembrandt and IzonTV, but all of these are aimed at commercial signage market not for consumer entertainment use and I don't believe any of them are HDR equipped at this time. Stream TV and Bravo Media, haven't seen any new info since the January announcement and no price estimates either. I picked up a 65" E6 OLED for now couple months ago, I don't expect it to be replaced by glasses-free any time soon.

The Izon models were 5500.00 plus so yeah, not exactly for consumer use unless you compare them to OLED models with the only selling point being glasses-free 3D.

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post #76 of 155 Old 05-02-2018, 07:38 AM
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Wow, thanks for the links Bob. The guy told me the 55 inch would be $2500. I agree that is not a friendly price but I was really impressed with the tech and I have been playing on my glasses free 3DS for years and love it. I will email them and report back any response thanks.
Actually, $2,500 is not an outrageous price if it works. I paid $1,300 for an LG 60" passive 3D TV a couple years ago and lots of people have paid or $2,000 for their OLED 3D TVs in the past. Whether it has all the other bells and whistles you want, though, is another consideration.
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post #77 of 155 Old 06-26-2018, 04:46 AM
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Hmm, well, that's a bit discouraging...I didn't realize they had made this announcement 5 years ago! I guess we'll see if they can make good on the plan to have actual products in the market later this year.
Articles stating 3D is dead do not understand that the UHD standard for 3D requires much more powerful hardware thus 3D was skipped in the first generation UHD Blu-ray. So UHD 3D is delayed and likely will be available in one of it's forms as VR on Goggles or 8K glassless 3D TVs with camera for eye tracking.

As to roadmap:

1) Sony is shipping 8K TVs in quantity 2020
2) Media using the UHD standard; First frame + Depth map allows multi-view 3D which in your article are the multiple different 3D views stitched together horizontally allowing parallax. Problem is this requires significant processing to recover each 3D view from depth map and first frame.
3) Modern PCs and Game consoles (mid range PCs) have the power to do this but require DRM covering CPU, GPU and memory which starts for AMD with AMD's SME SVE. Speculation is this starts for game consoles with GDDR6 in a Holiday 2018 PS4. This iteration of a PS4 should also be able to support UHD Blu-ray.
4) There should be a next generation version of UHD Blu-ray supporting 8K and 4K 3D which PCs and 2018 and later game consoles can support.

Sony has a BDA UHD license for PCs and Game Consoles that they have not used yet. Best guess is by 2019 they will be supporting 4K 3D IPTV and by 2020 they will be supporting 8K and 4K 3D blu-ray on PCs and Game Consoles. No extra hardware needed and as you stated in your article a 4K 3D PC monitor is planned for late 2018.

Can you confirm Sony is going to use this 3D technology, if so, it gives support to the above. In about 2011 Sony whitepapers were speculating the uses for 8K and HEVC (Camera for gesture/Eye tracking was mentioned). 2012 the Sony CTO was talking about what was needed for Playstation and among the features listed was 8K and 300FPS. Sony and AMD are big on VR and a next generation PS VR goggle should support 4K/eye and foveated rendering (requires eye tracking). Any 4K 3D media would be view able on a 8K 4K 3D TV or VR Goggle.

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post #78 of 155 Old 06-26-2018, 07:15 AM
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To make 8K viable, you would have to go larger than a 80" TV I think, since the pixel separation would not be useful or perceptible in smaller sizes. It might be more credible with projectors, but then again 8K resolution is 4 times greater than 4K and will require an infrastructure to drive it that just will not be there in 10, even 20 years. So all input will be specialized to disc as is most 4K today, but 4K streaming is showing up now. 8K streaming bandwidth just isn't worth the expense or realm of possibility until the internet changes. Maybe our children will see it, if the world is still around then...
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post #79 of 155 Old 06-26-2018, 08:18 AM
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8K will happen, like it or not, first with TV's, then with content - streamed or on the disc.
TV's only become larger and larger, 8K will drive the bigger size even more!
Projectors will be swamped by ever bigger 8K TV's...
At first, the 4K streaming was subpar, below 1080p streaming quality, but after some time things got better.
The same will be with 8K, upscaled from 4K, compressed, pixelated, ugly. After 1-2 years, better and better.

Maybe we will get some 3D back with 8K..., who knows...
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post #80 of 155 Old 07-04-2018, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Neilson View Post
I wonder whether this technology will be used in computers and computer screens and in mobile devices and game consoles. You'd have to have graphics processing capable of powering it. Of course, I wonder how odd it'd look using a tablet or phone with this technology in public. Hopefully the field of view isn't wide enough that everyone near you can see the 3D image popping off of your screen. Think of the privacy implications. Of course, I must admit that my understanding of this technology is very low.
You can get a glasses free smartphone later this summer made by the same guys that make the RED cameras.

The RED Hydrogen One - Android smartphone has a 5.7-inch display that they call holographic.

http://downloads.red.com/hydrogen.pdf

https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/19/1...n-photos-video

Verizon and AT&T are already advertising the phone.
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post #81 of 155 Old 07-04-2018, 06:02 PM
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You can get a glasses free smartphone later this summer made by the same guys that make the RED cameras.

The RED Hydrogen One - Android smartphone has a 5.7-inch display that they call holographic.

http://downloads.red.com/hydrogen.pdf

https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/19/1...n-photos-video

Verizon and AT&T are already advertising the phone.
Actually you can't get them right now, unless you already ordered one. They're no longer taking preorders.

They announced these earlier this year but at 1300, just to view something in a new way without having seen it in person first, very risky, so I passed. I thought it might be interesting but only to show off and wow factor and I can't see that it would really be useful for anything I would need.

There's a glasses-free 3D phone coming from Izon and they already have tablets 7" and 8.4 models with resolution 1080p or better.

I'd mostly only want the glasses-free phone if it can shoot 3D video, but I don't see any details on if it has 3D cameras or not, I see dual lenses in the graphic but it could be like the iphone just 2 different lenses.

http://www.izontv.com/3d-mobile

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post #82 of 155 Old 07-04-2018, 11:21 PM
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Actually you can't get them right now, unless you already ordered one. They're no longer taking preorders.

They announced these earlier this year but at 1300, just to view something in a new way without having seen it in person first, very risky, so I passed. I thought it might be interesting but only to show off and wow factor and I can't see that it would really be useful for anything I would need.

There's a glasses-free 3D phone coming from Izon and they already have tablets 7" and 8.4 models with resolution 1080p or better.

I'd mostly only want the glasses-free phone if it can shoot 3D video, but I don't see any details on if it has 3D cameras or not, I see dual lenses in the graphic but it could be like the iphone just 2 different lenses.

http://www.izontv.com/3d-mobile
The RED preorders were just for the first batch. Everyone else will order them from a service provider. AT&T is advertising late summer availability.

The phone is modular so you will be able to plug in various camera modules. There is also an 8K 3D camera planned that uses the smartphone as a viewfinder.
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post #83 of 155 Old 07-04-2018, 11:53 PM
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Yes, I would assume at some point but on the Red site it reads: Orders placed today will ship from my own personal production batch. I can also assure you that after this initial release we will NOT be able to fill all orders on time due to display production limitations. We will NOT guarantee these prices at time of release.

Yes, I saw ATT is claiming late summer and prices might go up too, but if they sell a lot I wouldn't hold my breath. Doesn't sound like they'll be mass produced like a Galaxy or iPhone. Not sure on 3D recording on this, the file recording is proprietary (H4V format) so I wouldn't expect to be able to do anything with it even if it can shoot 3d, other than use the footage in the phone. I don't really see any point in this phone other than the initial wow factor of the screen. Content is king, are they expecting app developers to jump on board? YT support? Doubt it. For video it sounds like you need 4 cameras to produce the effect needed for h4v files.

Lightfield tech, Leica didn't make it for a reason trying that, no one wanted it. This phone seems even more niche than that. I'd say it's pretty much DOA.

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post #84 of 155 Old 07-05-2018, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
8K will happen, like it or not, first with TV's, then with content - streamed or on the disc.
TV's only become larger and larger, 8K will drive the bigger size even more!
Projectors will be swamped by ever bigger 8K TV's...
At first, the 4K streaming was subpar, below 1080p streaming quality, but after some time things got better.
The same will be with 8K, upscaled from 4K, compressed, pixelated, ugly. After 1-2 years, better and better.

Maybe we will get some 3D back with 8K..., who knows...
I'd kinda hoped that the HEVC's successor was further along. Future Video Codec (H.FVC a.k.a. FVC) H.266 goal is to offer >50% compression over HEVC in hardware form by June 2021 (plus time for integrating it into the latest TVs). 8K needs 400% over 4K to keep the same bandwidth and quality. FVC would be nice just to stream a decent 4K without hitting ISP limits (UHD Blu-ray does 128Mbit/s on a 100GB disc in HEVC). But we will eventually get to a decent 8K.

Does anyone know if FVC is the actual name or just a placeholder? What do they call the next one after FVC or is FVC unobtainable?

3D HEVC is significantly better than Blu-ray's MVC. It is a shame it was not included in the UHD Blu-ray spec. 3D for FVC is listed as an option. Not sure if that means they will create it.
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post #85 of 155 Old 07-05-2018, 01:01 AM
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I can't even render h.265 yet in a decent amount of time so I don't bother. Still using h.264 even for my 4K work, the way I see it: my cameras aren't 10 bit, they record in h.264 anyway so there's no downgrade at all just sticking with h.264 and space is fairly cheap any more. I'll start using h.265 when I have a machine that can render at the same speed as h.264. I'll probably not be upgrading though for a year or two at least.

It wouldn't matter if they had included it (3D MVC HEVC), no screens would be able to display 2160p frame-packed signal. I doubt even LG screens could, they only accept 3D resolution up to 4096x2160. 3D MVC HEVC would be something like 3840x4365. Then there are no Blu ray players that could handle it either. Then they stopped making 3D flat panels altogether so whatever is out now is it. The LG screens can accept half 4K so just encode a regular 2D UHD disc to top bottom half and enable 3D mode the best you can get right now, unfortunately it wouldn't work on everything else.

Something tells me there just isn't going to be a push for it like there was for Blu ray 3D. Other than projectors, the manufacturers have jumped ship on 3D.

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post #86 of 155 Old 07-05-2018, 01:05 AM
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Yes, I would assume at some point but on the Red site it reads: Orders placed today will ship from my own personal production batch. I can also assure you that after this initial release we will NOT be able to fill all orders on time due to display production limitations. We will NOT guarantee these prices at time of release.

Yes, I saw ATT is claiming late summer and prices might go up too, but if they sell a lot I wouldn't hold my breath. Doesn't sound like they'll be mass produced like a Galaxy or iPhone. Not sure on 3D recording on this, the file recording is proprietary (H4V format) so I wouldn't expect to be able to do anything with it even if it can shoot 3d, other than use the footage in the phone. I don't really see any point in this phone other than the initial wow factor of the screen. Content is king, are they expecting app developers to jump on board? YT support? Doubt it. For video it sounds like you need 4 cameras to produce the effect needed for h4v files.

Lightfield tech, Leica didn't make it for a reason trying that, no one wanted it. This phone seems even more niche than that. I'd say it's pretty much DOA.
This article talks about some of the content that will be available (including 30 game titles by August) but it sounds like the phone is targeted for RED camera users. Still, it is something more than press releases.

https://www.displaydaily.com/article...mething-bigger

Looks like they have their own network for content distribution.

https://www.h4vuser.net/t/official-h...nformation/517
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post #87 of 155 Old 07-05-2018, 01:07 AM
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Does anyone know if FVC is the actual name or just a placeholder? What do they call the next one after FVC or is FVC unobtainable?
Right now, they (MPEG-LA) still call it Future Video Coding / FVC / H.266, and it is still a work in progress, as you said, we will see FVC/H.266 in 2020-2021 - and its aim is to achieve a ‘better' than 30 percent compression improvement over existing standards (HEVC/H.265, I guess).

FVC/H.266 Development Schedule
• Standardisation process has started
• Target >50 per cent over HEVC
• Oct 2017, Call for Proposals
• Feb 2018, Responses evaluation
• Oct 2018, First test models due
• Oct 2019, First versions of Standard
• End 2020, Final Standard
• June 2021, First hardware Codecs

AOMedia (Google) works on AV1, as the successor of VP9 and equivalent of FVC/H.266.
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post #88 of 155 Old 07-05-2018, 01:35 AM
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I can't even render h.265 yet in a decent amount of time so I don't bother. Still using h.264 even for my 4K work, the way I see it: my cameras aren't 10 bit, they record in h.264 anyway so there's no downgrade at all just sticking with h.264 and space is fairly cheap any more. I'll start using h.265 when I have a machine that can render at the same speed as h.264. I'll probably not be upgrading though for a year or two at least.

It wouldn't matter if they had included it (3D MVC HEVC), no screens would be able to display 2160p frame-packed signal. I doubt even LG screens could, they only accept 3D resolution up to 4096x2160. 3D MVC HEVC would be something like 3840x4365. Then there are no Blu ray players that could handle it either. Then they stopped making 3D flat panels altogether so whatever is out now is it. The LG screens can accept half 4K so just encode a regular 2D UHD disc to top bottom half and enable 3D mode the best you can get right now, unfortunately it wouldn't work on everything else.

Something tells me there just isn't going to be a push for it like there was for Blu ray 3D. Other than projectors, the manufacturers have jumped ship on 3D.
I was thinking that the inclusion of 3D-HEVC may have helped reduce/prevent the either-3D-or-UHD-but-not-both fun that followed - paving the way for a choice of one over the other. May have taken a bit for the TV manufacturers to fully display 4K 3D. At least including 3D-HEVC may have provided a better quality 2K 3D image and/or more content on a disc without the added cost of a 3-layer disc.
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post #89 of 155 Old 07-05-2018, 10:58 AM
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I think the writing was already on the wall when UHD discs came out and even when the standard was released (2015) as Samsung had bailed that year on 3D. LG pretty much made it clear in early 2016 they were phasing out their 3D screens as well. That was when I first knew it was time to get a 4K screen or I'd miss out, if I wanted 3D. So even if they had included it, it wouldn't have had any effect on LG's decision that I can see.

They could add the support at any time so perhaps projector screens could get the benefit and also glasses free screens but I don't think we'll see either of those options in the next few years even if the update to the UHD spec comes right now. There would also be a problem with manufacturing the discs as the current software that is in place only supports 1080p. Sony would have to develop a new MVC render program and this is after they've discontinued selling the Blu ray 3D software altogether, so Sony's pretty much done with 3D.

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post #90 of 155 Old 07-05-2018, 10:37 PM
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I think the writing was already on the wall when UHD discs came out and even when the standard was released (2015) as Samsung had bailed that year on 3D. LG pretty much made it clear in early 2016 they were phasing out their 3D screens as well. That was when I first knew it was time to get a 4K screen or I'd miss out, if I wanted 3D. So even if they had included it, it wouldn't have had any effect on LG's decision that I can see.
What I'm thinking is you could probably (ab)use the HDMI 2.1 specs that support either [email protected] or [email protected] (it claims to be able to go to [email protected]) with Active Shutter glasses to pseudo support 3D, assuming you can get a TV in the future that will support this input properly as well as something that can output the correct format (ie convert 3D [email protected]/30/60 into 120 with blanking frames. Of course, if there's a manufacturer supporting 3D (glasses free, Active or Passive) they could design the TV to support a variety of non-standard formats (there may end up being a pseudo-4K 3D format to emerge, just like SBS/OU).
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