Stream TV Glasses-Free 3D at CES 2018 - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 155 Old 07-05-2018, 11:28 PM
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I'm not too worried about HDMI being able to support it. If it can support 8k at 60fps it should handle 4K frame packing at 24fps so if they were to update it right now for 3D you could get 4K 3D up to 60fps. But I think you would have to have a 3D universal standard just like the hdmi 1.4 spec allowed and the Blu ray 3D delivered. So that would mean the 4K 3D spec would be 3840x4365 frame packing. The problem with SbS, t/b they are only half resolution 3D formats unless you render out full SBS or t/b but if you try that now, those resolutions won't work in 4K on a 4K display, the resolution is too high. I suppose that's where 8K comes in, then you have enough resolution to work with but if we're talking passive 3D, they may not bring that tech back although I don't see anything wrong with it personally. I think the 2016 OLED screens were the best 3D yet for flat screens.

It's more likely glasses-free 3D screens will be the next 3D phase for flat panels but whether or not they can perform as well, might have a long way to go.

Now Samsung actually did reemerge into the 3D market, at least commercially. They did release that big theater-sized LED 3D screen, so I guess that counts as something. Just need the new QLED's to support 3D.

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post #92 of 155 Old 07-06-2018, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
I'm not too worried about HDMI being able to support it. If it can support 8k at 60fps it should handle 4K frame packing at 24fps so if they were to update it right now for 3D you could get 4K 3D up to 60fps. But I think you would have to have a 3D universal standard just like the hdmi 1.4 spec allowed and the Blu ray 3D delivered. So that would mean the 4K 3D spec would be 3840x4365 frame packing. The problem with SbS, t/b they are only half resolution 3D formats unless you render out full SBS or t/b but if you try that now, those resolutions won't work in 4K on a 4K display, the resolution is too high. I suppose that's where 8K comes in, then you have enough resolution to work with but if we're talking passive 3D, they may not bring that tech back although I don't see anything wrong with it personally. I think the 2016 OLED screens were the best 3D yet for flat screens.

It's more likely glasses-free 3D screens will be the next 3D phase for flat panels but whether or not they can perform as well, might have a long way to go.
My comment is more on whether you can retrofit HDMI 2.1 to support 3D formats when the specification doesn't actually support it yet. Ideally, if TV manufacturers push 3D as a supported 4K+ format that would be the best option, particularly if it's part of the future HDMI 2.1+ specs to support frame packed media as you say. A possible fallback is to use 120 fps with 3rd party hardware solutions and Active Shutter glasses to simulate it instead. This would be the most cost effective way to get it on TV's that don't natively support 3D in the future. If you had some other technology (Ultra-D light field tech or new FPR filters available) you could avoid needing 120 fps and use frame packed media directly into the TV, but you'd need some specification to do that. I'd have to check the HDMI specifications, it would make sense to support 4K+ frame packed media (VR or 3D) at some point.
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post #93 of 155 Old 07-06-2018, 02:41 PM
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My comment is more on whether you can retrofit HDMI 2.1 to support 3D formats when the specification doesn't actually support it yet. Ideally, if TV manufacturers push 3D as a supported 4K+ format that would be the best option, particularly if it's part of the future HDMI 2.1+ specs to support frame packed media as you say. A possible fallback is to use 120 fps with 3rd party hardware solutions and Active Shutter glasses to simulate it instead. This would be the most cost effective way to get it on TV's that don't natively support 3D in the future. If you had some other technology (Ultra-D light field tech or new FPR filters available) you could avoid needing 120 fps and use frame packed media directly into the TV, but you'd need some specification to do that. I'd have to check the HDMI specifications, it would make sense to support 4K+ frame packed media (VR or 3D) at some point.
I doubt it would support it as-is, there would need to be an update. The 1.4 update added 3D up to 1080p so the same would need to be added for 4K3D. But since it can already handle 8k60 it shouldn't be much of an update really. The problem with 3D is you really need a universal standard for delivery at least if we're talking full resolution. The 120fps active shutter, not going to work on everything. Especially if we talking about content delivery and distribution of media which physical media is still the best way. Streaming media I doubt it would be capable of delivering full resolution, if you look at Vudu, Netflix (when they had 3D), they were only half resolution streaming options. The Blu ray 3D format offered full resolution and you would certainly want that as a progression to the UHD format but that means you really want frame packing as a means of universal compatibility. All the other 3D formats available will not work in full resolution on every display type on the market like frame packing can. Currently, as long as you have all HDMI 1.4 (or higher) equipped devices, high speed cables, Blu ray 3D player and 3D capable screen, you can view any 3D Blu ray.

And if they create UHD 3D discs it would be the same thing but we'd have to upgrade all over again of course to get the HDMI 2.? whatever update adds 3D. Without the update there's nothing telling the display it's 3D. If you've ever tried to display a Blu ray 3D with frame packing turned off (if you can even do that on your display) you'll see the main image and then another image on top, stacked above it.

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post #94 of 155 Old 07-06-2018, 07:19 PM
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Nvidia 3D Vision did 60 FPS per eye 3D over whatever connector you used between your computer and monitor (including HDMI). Whatever resolution DVI/HDMI could support at 120 FPS worked. You could use any existing monitor that did 120 Hz including CRTs. The active glasses were driven by an emitter connected to your computer via USB.
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post #95 of 155 Old 07-08-2018, 04:58 PM
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Nvidia 3D Vision did 60 FPS per eye 3D over whatever connector you used between your computer and monitor (including HDMI). Whatever resolution DVI/HDMI could support at 120 FPS worked. You could use any existing monitor that did 120 Hz including CRTs. The active glasses were driven by an emitter connected to your computer via USB.
Nvidia 3D Vision can do anything.... as long as Nvidia's marketing department agrees to it.


You cannot use any existing 120Hz monitor with 3D Vision.
You can use any 120Hz only if it is a CRT monitor.

You must use LCD monitors specially certified for 3D Vision, they can work at 100Hz, 110Hz , 120Hz or 144Hz
Nvidia can make a special version of their driver for any custom designed 3D display if a manufacturer agrees to pay the price (example : 1st gen Zalmann FPR displays)



Nvidia will blacklist your monitor from the 3D Visions driver if you build a 3D monitor and make it compatible without paying for 3D Vision certification (example : Samsung A700-series 3D monitors)

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post #96 of 155 Old 07-08-2018, 05:56 PM
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Nvidia 3D Vision can do anything.... as long as Nvidia's marketing department agrees to it.


You cannot use any existing 120Hz monitor with 3D Vision.
You can use any 120Hz only if it is a CRT monitor.

You must use LCD monitors specially certified for 3D Vision, they can work at 100Hz, 110Hz , 120Hz or 144Hz
Nvidia can make a special version of their driver for any custom designed 3D display if a manufacturer agrees to pay the price (example : 1st gen Zalmann FPR displays)



Nvidia will blacklist your monitor from the 3D Visions driver if you build a 3D monitor and make it compatible without paying for 3D Vision certification (example : Samsung A700-series 3D monitors)
Well Nvidia licensing aside, I expect it wouldn't be impossible to duplicate what they did. Take a Raspberry Pi and hook up an IR emitter and possibly write a plugin for Kodi. Turn your 2D 60 FPS TV panel into 3D 30 FPS (okay not perfect but just wait until those 2D 240 FPS panels come out ).
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post #97 of 155 Old 07-08-2018, 07:52 PM
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I doubt it would support it as-is, there would need to be an update. The 1.4 update added 3D up to 1080p so the same would need to be added for 4K3D. But since it can already handle 8k60 it shouldn't be much of an update really. The problem with 3D is you really need a universal standard for delivery at least if we're talking full resolution. The 120fps active shutter, not going to work on everything.
I'll agree on that - it would be nice if they bring it back into the specifications for HDMI 2.1+ for frame packed media, that would be pretty useful for not just 3D but VR over HDMI without using some unofficial standard. We'll have to wait and see whether glasses-free 3D or VR is enough to bring support back into the HDMI specs (I'd guess VR for higher resolutions).
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post #98 of 155 Old 07-09-2018, 12:12 AM
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It seems to me that HDMI does not specify 4K or 8K TV standards. It adds the ability to carry those standards (and others) by bumping up the bandwidth limit or adding 3D and deep color support. HDMI specifies limits on bandwidth, color depth, encoding schemes, compression, etc. HDMI 2.1 supports Variable Refresh Rate which is great for gamers but not something that movies or TV have used.

The 4K and 8K (with color space, FPS, etc.) standards that UHD TV's support, were published by SMPTE and are called UHDTV-1 and UHDTV-2.

Computer standards are a bit of a mess. Although VESA has established some (e.g. SVGA) usually it is one manufacture that creates a new mode that is reverse engineered by others. VR would fall under this group.

3D continues to be supported by HDMI. As bandwidth limits increase, so does 3D supported resolutions, color depth, and frame rate. No manufacturer is obligated to support this. VR is most likely to do so as display resolutions increase.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-...ion_television
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_display_standard

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post #99 of 155 Old 07-12-2018, 01:23 PM
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Well Nvidia licensing aside, I expect it wouldn't be impossible to duplicate what they did. Take a Raspberry Pi and hook up an IR emitter and possibly write a plugin for Kodi. Turn your 2D 60 FPS TV panel into 3D 30 FPS (okay not perfect but just wait until those 2D 240 FPS panels come out ).
Back in the days of simple and dumb CRT TVs, you could do that.
But with modern digital TVs, it's a lot more complicated.


Modern TVs do a lot of processing the images you send them before displaying them. Input lag is often variable and unpredictable, causing de-syncs if you try to force 3D stereo on a display that isn't designed for it. You would need a lot of trial and error, probably having to buy multiple TVs before succeeding in this kind of enterprise.
Besides... 60Hz stereo shutter causes massive eyestrain. You really need 100Hz+ for comfortable viewing (some people still feel discomfort at 120Hz and require higher !... or passive systems)

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post #100 of 155 Old 07-12-2018, 01:39 PM
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Back in the days of simple and dumb CRT TVs, you could do that.
But with modern digital TVs, it's a lot more complicated.


Modern TVs do a lot of processing the images you send them before displaying them. Input lag is often variable and unpredictable, causing de-syncs if you try to force 3D stereo on a display that isn't designed for it. You would need a lot of trial and error, probably having to buy multiple TVs before succeeding in this kind of enterprise.
Besides... 60Hz stereo shutter causes massive eyestrain. You really need 100Hz+ for comfortable viewing (some people still feel discomfort at 120Hz and require higher !... or passive systems)
And todays TVs dont come close to a old crt screen, thats why alot of publishers/printers and companys that need the best quality image still use them, only reason they were stopped being made was, logistics, not practical to make 55"/75" crt screens, and warehouse's to keep them, and delivery of them would take like 4 people per screen, shame we never got to see a 55" 4K 3D crt
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post #101 of 155 Old 07-12-2018, 03:15 PM
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And todays TVs dont come close to a old crt screen, thats why alot of publishers/printers and companys that need the best quality image still use them, only reason they were stopped being made was, logistics, not practical to make 55"/75" crt screens, and warehouse's to keep them, and delivery of them would take like 4 people per screen, shame we never got to see a 55" 4K 3D crt
Right, todays screens are way better, lol. I could not imagine anything bigger or heavier than my old 35" CRT. I somehow managed to move it by myself a few times. The image quality, well it was NTSC so nothing particularly great about it. Today's screens, HD minimum, wider color gamut, digital signal. I only have one CRT device left and that's an original release iMac that I'm holding on to, other than that, they've all been sold or recycled years ago.

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post #102 of 155 Old 07-12-2018, 03:22 PM
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Right, todays screens are way better, lol. I could not imagine anything bigger or heavier than my old 35" CRT. I somehow managed to move it by myself a few times. The image quality, well it was NTSC so nothing particularly great about it. Today's screens, HD minimum, wider color gamut, digital signal. I only have one CRT device left and that's an original release iMac that I'm holding on to, other than that, they've all been sold or recycled years ago.
CRT's had unlimited contrast. true blacks, true rgb, zero input lag, if they had made a 4k crt, it would be awesome, and would beat any oled/lcd we have now, Fact
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post #103 of 155 Old 07-12-2018, 04:42 PM
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The big sticker there is: if. CRTS were interlaced so just viewing text on a screen will show aliasing, much easier to read on any flat panel variety. And can you imagine the power it would take to run a 65" plus CRT these days? People griped about plasmas using more than LCD, imagine that 80" CRT.

Input latency, only time I've noticed that being a problem is for gaming, and yeah it sucks but it's possible to have low input lag on LCD, just depends on the screen. True blacks, OLED has that covered, so did plasma. And now we have 10 bit and HDR. I never considered my 35" screen as better on contrast than any LCD I've owned, actually the opposite because the color seems better but with reduced black level of course. But now that I have an OLED the only thing it's missing is low input latency.

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post #104 of 155 Old 07-12-2018, 06:04 PM
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At work, we used to have specialized super high-end 28" square Sony Trinitron CRT monitors with about 2Kx2K resolution.

They were huge (deeper than wide), weighed 95kg (about 190 pound), had a very dark image and a reflective glass surface (hard to work with during the day), poor sharpness, and two little black horizontal lines across the screen (Trinitron technology), and they cost an arm and a leg (the monitors were sold as medical monitors).

Any current entry level supermarket FullHD LCD TV would smoke these CRTs.... In fact, even the early 2000's LCD TVs with their horrible response time, poor colour and contrast smoked them (that's why people bought flat screen TV over CRTs, to the point of pushing CRT manufacturers out of business)

The only technical feature in which CRTs would still be relevant would be their true blacks, but they're not the only type of display that achieves it (OLED).
Small note : infinite contrast is a marketing term, it's not a real thing.

I am not talking about input lag, because a newly designed CRT TV would include all the slow input processing and lag of modern TVs... Because it would have to deal with exactly the same variety of video sources as any other TV (highly compressed DVB, upscaled DVD, low bitrate streaming, etc...), conversion between digital and analog signals, and an internal OS for dealing with menus, network and USB file playback, etc...
In fact even back in the days, the high end CRT TVs did have processing (for example I particularly remember the 100Hz high refresh rate with double-flash for reduced flicker which broke gun-based video games).
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post #105 of 155 Old 07-26-2018, 10:04 AM
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I just ordered their 65 inch main and perhaps only current model Ultra-D. Its $3500 bought outright, but it will end up costing me $4000 because I bought it with a 30 day trial for $500 up front and then $3500 if it fits into my project and I keep it.

So Ill let you guys know... it sounds like the most dramatic footage is when you render from a package like 3DS Max/Vray, which some of my material is, and format it in their proprietary format which is a 1080p 60 x 2 side by side, but its left eye 2D and right eye depth map. Then you send them the file and they "encrypt" it for a fee, only then can it can play from a USB drive you stuff directly into the monitor.

It does have 3D to Ultra-D realtime conversion and they say I can put my full HD SBS 3840 x 1080p at 60 right into it with an HDMI, but I thought that was too much bandwidth for HDMI unless it is HDMI 2 maybe it is.

And they really wont answer me about if the dramatic highly reviewed experiences seen at trade shows are real time converted, or if it has been manually converted in house by them into their proprietary format, which they allude to but do not explain.... but it apparently can cost a lot...

So if the real time stereoscopic input isn't pretty nice, I'm going to send it back, their proprietary format wont let me mix rendered 2D + Depth Map (which is easy enough for me to do and I think provides their best result) - with stereoscopic video.... without involving them in the process and costing probably a lot, they wont really tell me how much... in fact I was told we could cross that bridge when we come to it... but I dunno about that..

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post #106 of 155 Old 07-26-2018, 05:37 PM
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I just ordered their 65 inch main and perhaps only current model Ultra-D. Its $3500 bought outright, but it will end up costing me $4000 because I bought it with a 30 day trial for $500 up front and then $3500 if it fits into my project and I keep it.

So Ill let you guys know... it sounds like the most dramatic footage is when you render from a package like 3DS Max/Vray, which some of my material is, and format it in their proprietary format which is a 1080p 60 x 2 side by side, but its left eye 2D and right eye depth map. Then you send them the file and they "encrypt" it for a fee, only then can it can play from a USB drive you stuff directly into the monitor.

It does have 3D to Ultra-D realtime conversion and they say I can put my full HD SBS 3840 x 1080p at 60 right into it with an HDMI, but I thought that was too much bandwidth for HDMI unless it is HDMI 2 maybe it is.

And they really wont answer me about if the dramatic highly reviewed experiences seen at trade shows are real time converted, or if it has been manually converted in house by them into their proprietary format, which they allude to but do not explain.... but it apparently can cost a lot...

So if the real time stereoscopic input isn't pretty nice, I'm going to send it back, their proprietary format wont let me mix rendered 2D + Depth Map (which is easy enough for me to do and I think provides their best result) - with stereoscopic video.... without involving them in the process and costing probably a lot, they wont really tell me how much... in fact I was told we could cross that bridge when we come to it... but I dunno about that..
Which company did you order from?

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post #107 of 155 Old 07-26-2018, 06:32 PM
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Leo at Stream TV
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post #108 of 155 Old 07-26-2018, 08:29 PM
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Wouldn't mind hearing how native stereo 3D performs on it. Does it look like it should or does it look converted somehow. I take it this is a 4K model? The 8K models must be still in development. Their 3D plus depth format, 1080p60x2 would just be Blu ray 3D quality just faster refresh rate. Would be nice if it could handle 4K3D half resolution like on passive 4k screens. Looking forward to hearing more on it when you get it in and set up. I was thinking about taking the plunge on one next year, glad I'm not the first but there's no way to know for sure until you see it in person.

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post #109 of 155 Old 07-26-2018, 11:38 PM
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Yes, please post the information screen details (you may obscure the serial numbers if you desire). I'm curious to see what you're getting, and the information screen is easiest. It's the one that displays system versions.

Edit: and a photo of the remote control. I'm curious what they're shipping.
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post #110 of 155 Old 07-29-2018, 05:00 AM
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It does have 3D to Ultra-D realtime conversion and they say I can put my full HD SBS 3840 x 1080p at 60 right into it with an HDMI, but I thought that was too much bandwidth for HDMI unless it is HDMI 2 maybe it is.
Hdmi 1.4, Hdmi 2.0 are mainly about minimum spec requirements so thay a customer can buy any equipment and be sure it's 100% compatible out of the box.
But the hdmi specs do have optional features, which allow manufacturers to push further with non-standard applications. (custom resolutions, high refresh rates, different colour formats, extra 3D formats, etc...)

A Manufacturer can perfectly use the Hdmi1.4 spec with optional high bandwidth chips, in order to push the resolution higher with 3840x1080 60Hz (Full SBS), or 1920x1080 120Hz, while remaining within the hdmi 1.4 specification.

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post #111 of 155 Old 07-31-2018, 03:46 PM
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Morgus1, you are a pioneer in the world of autostereo displays. We all anxiously await hearing how Blu-ray 3D looks on one of these. It would be especially interesting to test a disc with lots of off-the-screen gimmick shots, such as JAWS 3-D, AMITYVILLE 3-D, etc, as those who have tested these have seemed to indicate the effect of these shots is much compromised on autostereo displays. I've only seen one up close once, and it was showing carefully controlled content, so I am curious to see what you think.

Please do try various types of content from different eras and not just the recent, more "2.5D" type 3-D content as of course the vintage titles have much more depth. It still amazes me that movies from sixty-five years ago have far superior 3-D than today's multi-million dollar epics.

Good luck and have fun!
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post #112 of 155 Old 07-31-2018, 07:44 PM
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I hope it works for my purposes, I’m encouraged by the reviews and potential of the 8k.... I’ve invested so much of my last few years into my stereoscopic project and now I’m concentrating on displaying it. I probably need some lithium. I just found/bought 2 oled77g6p and have drawn up plans for road cases for them.
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post #113 of 155 Old 08-01-2018, 12:16 AM
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Do remember the depth is adjustable, and the defaults are set to be rather mild so it won't pop. The reason for this is it's always in 3d mode and it's set to a subdued level so you can look at it 24/7 without getting sick. You can crank it all the way up to the point you will feel nauseous but have a but too much effect, or tone it down.

It can also be flattened down to 2d if you really are feeling sick and don't want to see depth.

Last time I ran 3d rarities on it the pop out was nice, but you need to be in the wide sweet spot to see it - it will collapse into watchable 2d outside the sweet spot.
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post #114 of 155 Old 08-03-2018, 04:38 PM
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So I reviewed it today using avatar 3-D Blu-ray. There is some kind a 3-D something going on there and it’s kind of neat and might catch the attention of somebody for an advertising purpose, but I have it set up next to an 0LED 65G6P and one is amazing and the other is not. It’s a curious something but no one could watch it for very long so I’m sending her back
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post #115 of 155 Old 08-03-2018, 08:41 PM
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Maybe try comparing the 2D version of Avatar to the 3D version and see what's going on. Does the 3D version look better or worse or does the 2D version look just as good? Or the same. If it doesn't look like the native 3D which is how it will look on the OLED then there's some conversion going on with their proprietary software. I was hoping that was not the case. Are you viewing on the floor or do you have it up eye level?

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post #116 of 155 Old 08-04-2018, 02:22 AM
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Make sure you are not too close. I can't remember the exact figures, but the limits are 4-12 feet or so, with the optimal being about 6-8 feet away. Farther is better - beyond 12 feet and the depth collapses. Too close and the auto stereo film apply artifacts and is unwatchable (the only unwatchable area). Remember what your mother said and don't sit too close to the tv.

I think I recognize that hardware, it should have two HDMI ports.

And make sure you're not in any funny modes (there is a 4k pass through mode that disables all processing). If there is no menu or OSD, you're in that mode.
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post #117 of 155 Old 08-04-2018, 10:02 AM
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So I tried all kinds of distances and angles.. I put it on a big table at eye level. I couldn't get it to play 2d from a DVD at all... So as expected, you have to move around a bit to find a "sweet spot" that isn't the problem, the problem is that the foreground objects are clear and in the plane but background objects are always blurry in one eye, and while it is hard to appreciate when you are far away, like seeing an advertisement from 25 feet, and you do get some depth from that far away but that is too far for my purposes. It gives a strange experience. No chance it is appropriate for home use, I may involve myself in some trade shows, and if so, the company I'm producing for can buy one to reel people in as they pass, and then put them in front of a passive screen once they get them in.. thats my thoughts on its usefulness to me.

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post #118 of 155 Old 08-04-2018, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgus1 View Post
the problem is that the foreground objects are clear and in the plane but background objects are always blurry in one eye, and while it is hard to appreciate when you are far away, like seeing an advertisement from 25 feet, and you do get some depth from that far away but that is too far for my purposes. It gives a strange experience. No chance it is appropriate for home use, I may involve myself in some trade shows, and if so, the company I'm producing for can buy one to reel people in as they pass, and then put them in front of a passive screen once they get them in.. thats my thoughts on its usefulness to me.
Bummer. I was really hoping these would be like passive screens but without the glasses. It sounds like they have a long way to go before they're going to replace what we have already with glasses. They do seem to target them more for signage and commercial use. They would be an attention-getter to draw people in, but it sounds like the true 3D effect is not quite up to spec.

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post #119 of 155 Old 08-04-2018, 04:35 PM
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Morgus, did you tweak with the (per the manual I got off the website):

DEPTH FACTOR
Press OK to enter, then press ◄ or ► to adjust the  depth factor (total amount of depth). The default value is 100.
DEPTH OFFSET
Press OK to enter, then press ◄ or ► to adjust the  depth offset. This does not change to amount of 3D, but allows you to pull the scene forward or push the scene back into the screen (increase to move objects away from you). The default value is 0%.
BORDERS Press OK to enter the BORDERS menu. See “Borders Menu” on page 22.

My guess is the Borders need to be set to move one eye or the other to adjust the focus issue. When in doubt call Ultra-D support, of course. I think there is something else awry here. Also Avatar is an old 3D disc. Have you tried something newer? The display is 4:4:4 4k, so it's a good display they are using. The 3D lenticular map, might be off.


Another though: note the testimonials and one from an AVSforum guy. Might want to look him up. The testimonials don't match your experiences.

Edit: and one more thing. Note the sources fully supported: The following HDMI sources are fully supported: •  Sony BDP-6200 Blu-Ray player •  MyGica v7 media player NOTE: The display may not fully support all HDMI sources. For a complete list of all fully supported HDMI device types, visit our website (www.Ultra-D.com/support) to view the list. And of course check the Firmware for updates.

And don't give up, ever, never, never....

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post #120 of 155 Old 08-04-2018, 04:50 PM
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Here is more on Ultra-D and their display technology. I didn't realize there display also does straight through 4K viewing. https://www.streamtvnetworks.com/ultra-d/
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