Stream TV Glasses-Free 3D at CES 2018 - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 155 Old 08-04-2018, 08:24 PM
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I played with all of that. If you saw it you would realize that it does some crazy wavy process and all the tweeking In the word isn’t going to make it have clear crisp stereoscopic images. It’s neat but isn’t clean and crisp. And having an LG OLED right next to it just makes the imperfections stand out.
Supposedly if they creat the ultraD format source, 2D + Depth map, it is better. But for me having some company involved in my workflow is a non starter.
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post #122 of 155 Old 08-05-2018, 01:54 AM
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If you see waviness, you're generally too close. Trust me on this one, having developed with them for a couple of years. If your room is set up for ideal 4k viewing, it's actually much too close. And with the 65" unit it gets pushed out further.

The border feature turns off the 3d processing for areas - it's used because some digital signage have those bottom scrolling lines that display some text. This was designed for those who wanted to play news channels, for example.

If you're not seeing it clearly, the converted content is no better. Which you can obtain samples from Leo. That content has the best depth, second would be frame packed content, and last would be 2d.

Send 2d video through the unit, and set it to 2d as 2d mode. If it is not clear, you are way too close. (This turns off depth processing and gets you as straight through video as possible. The auto stereo film is passive, and cannot be turned off so if it's still wavy, you're too close).
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post #123 of 155 Old 08-05-2018, 11:33 AM
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Well you know more about it than I do about it for sure, and it is “neat” and I can see some uses for it in my project as I mentioned, I viewed it from about 20-30 feet and as I mentioned, the bluriness that one eye always has when viewed closer and the waviness isn’t noticeable at that distance, but appreciating the intricate depth of stereoscopically documented sinus dissections isn’t very noticeable either - whereas the OLED65G6P from all distances has amazing clarity. I used frame packed 24fps for all my tests.
I have a very specific purpose.
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post #124 of 155 Old 11-23-2018, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Morgus1 View Post
Well you know more about it than I do about it for sure, and it is “neat” and I can see some uses for it in my project as I mentioned, I viewed it from about 20-30 feet and as I mentioned, the bluriness that one eye always has when viewed closer and the waviness isn’t noticeable at that distance, but appreciating the intricate depth of stereoscopically documented sinus dissections isn’t very noticeable either - whereas the OLED65G6P from all distances has amazing clarity. I used frame packed 24fps for all my tests.
I have a very specific purpose.
Curious, did you end up sending it back? What were your final thoughts on it and the 2D plus depth, I was expecting the final units to allow t/b side by side input directly, but I guess they won't accept this type of input? But I take it frame packed content works like Blu ray 3D?

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post #125 of 155 Old 11-24-2018, 12:00 AM
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Via HDMI, you can send it standard 2D, top/bottom or SBS content as well as 3D frame packed content.

There is no auto detection of top/bottom or SBS content so you can manually enable those modes (when sending a 2d signal, it lets you convert to Ultra D (add depth aka, 2D to 3D conversion), leave it as 2D, or treat it as top/bottom or SBS image and play it in 3D).

Q
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post #126 of 155 Old 11-24-2018, 12:52 AM
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Ok, I knew the Izon models accepted those 3D inputs as posted on their site so I would assume the Stream TV would as well but a prior post here in this thread made it seem like these models wouldn't accept those but maybe I misunderstood the post on previous page. And is this model 8K or just 4K?

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post #127 of 155 Old 11-29-2018, 09:23 PM
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Putting a 2D picture into side by side mode is always a good test for separation.
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post #128 of 155 Old 01-08-2019, 09:08 AM
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Isn't it about time for the CES 2019 announcement that they will have these out in stores this year? Just like they said in 2011, and 2012, and 2013, and 2014 and 2015 and 2016 and 2017 and 2018....
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post #129 of 155 Old 01-15-2019, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
Isn't it about time for the CES 2019 announcement that they will have these out in stores this year? Just like they said in 2011, and 2012, and 2013, and 2014 and 2015 and 2016 and 2017 and 2018....
They did this back in November.

It breaks the heart this isn't out for consumers yet. Albeit with Morgus1's review of it I'm less enthused than when I read the positive things written by Scott Wilkinson in his article here last year.

Just paid a couple hundo for my PN64D8000 to be fixed, and missed out on the opp to buy a 77G6P at 10K last week(Because, $10K) I'd go for a little lesser picture quality if it meant no glasses, especially to be one of the first to have one. But the way Morgus describes it- no way, no how. Maybe it'll be better with 8K...?
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post #130 of 155 Old 01-16-2019, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Sacramentojoe View Post
Maybe it'll be better with 8K...?
Seems so. Apparently an 8K panel/image can use more pixels for the stereoscopic effect than a 4K. So it may improve the quality of the 3D image, just because the way Stream TV uses pixels to combine a 2D image with depth information. 8K = more depth information, less weaving stereo image, more separation.
We will see....
I will not hold my breath for this...
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post #131 of 155 Old 01-16-2019, 06:48 AM
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8k will require an extremely thin 3D Left eye/Right eye separator that in my mind will be almost impossible to align correctly and cause more crosstalk and fuzzy images--an apparent problem with the current model. That would probably require the 3D mask (whatever it is: polarized, lenticular, striped mask, and not magic holographic voodoo) to likely be a 4K alignment masking of 8k to 2K.
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post #132 of 155 Old 01-16-2019, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
8k will require an extremely thin 3D Left eye/Right eye separator that in my mind will be almost impossible to align correctly and cause more crosstalk and fuzzy images--an apparent problem with the current model. That would probably require the 3D mask (whatever it is: polarized, lenticular, striped mask, and not magic holographic voodoo) to likely be a 4K alignment masking of 8k to 2K.
Ultra-D uses a stack of layers of refractive and diffractive optical elements bonded to an display panel. The viewing areas are repeated horizontally with smooth transitions between them. The optical system creates an almost continuous light field in front of the screen.
I recall that I have read that the higher the resolution, the better/smooth is the light field that is generated by this layer.
Ultra-D combines a 2D image and a depth map, using the pixels on the screen for one or the other. For example, a 4K/UHD screen has 8 million pixels, half of which are used for the 2D image while the other half are used for the depth map.
At CES 2018, there was a 65″ custom-built flat panel with 16 million pixels in a 4K x 4K array. The 2D image was generated by 8 million pixels, and the depth map used the other 8 million pixels.
For a 8K panel the ratio it will probably be 8 million (4K/UHD) for the 2D image and 24 million for the depth map.

Yes, the early FHD/2K versions of the system were unimpressive, but starting with the 4K panels things got better.

Maybe 8K is what is needed for this tech to become more widespread...
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post #133 of 155 Old 01-16-2019, 09:49 AM
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If it's anything like what I saw on the Red Hydrogen One, don't expect to be blown away by it. While it will create glasses-free 3D, which is the big breakthrough, it will lack the 3D range of existing 3D screens. What I saw was a compromise between what the RH1 screen from Leia could show and built-in conversion adjusting the 3D image to what the screen actually allows. If you go beyond its capabilities it will show crosstalk, and compared to the same images on my OLED, it didn't take a lot to show crosstalk in the negative and positive areas of 3D depth.

Now that's a Leia screen, not UltraD but I'm very skeptical this will convince most of us here that like true, authentic 3D. There is likely a reason this product has been limited to commercial digital signage usage and not home theater viewing. It looks unique walking past, getting your attention, but if you were to view it for a length of time, then you see the problems.

The big problem is current 3D content is not displayed natively on these glasses-free 3D screens. The RH1, looks better if you create content in its 4V method. Same with 2D plus depth. Resolution alone, is not going to change that. If you take a Blu ray 3D and it wouldn't matter if it was filmed in native 3D or converted, the two left/right views are still converted to 2D plus depth in real-time by the screen. So you're not ever getting the true 3D that is on the disc like you do with current 3D hardware. If you want to create 2D plus depth content for it, it's probably fine for what it can generate glasses-free. But are people going to be wowed by it the way we were wowed when we first saw 3D? I doubt it.

The fact it's glasses-free wore off very quickly for me with the RH1. In fact, the older HTC EVO that I got on eBay for 20.00 did the same thing and in most cases shows my real 3D mpo files better! Again, native 3D files are not what the new phone shows. Give it any decent negative parallax and crosstalk, sometimes even slight pop out would confuse it.

Bottomline: I think most of you are going to be disappointed.

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post #134 of 155 Old 01-16-2019, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Give it any decent negative parallax and crosstalk, sometimes even slight pop out would confuse it.
Maybe this is why Stream TV is saying - and not once - that Ultra-D works better when it displays mild stereoscopy and no popups. So the Ultra-D tech is able to display properly only 3D images that have low depth and the depth is shown beyond the screen, not in front of the screen. Many modern 3D movies are made just like that - the screen is just a window.
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post #135 of 155 Old 01-16-2019, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Ultra-D uses a stack of layers of refractive and diffractive optical elements bonded to an display panel. The viewing areas are repeated horizontally with smooth transitions between them. The optical system creates an almost continuous light field in front of the screen.
I recall that I have read that the higher the resolution, the better/smooth is the light field that is generated by this layer.
Ultra-D combines a 2D image and a depth map, using the pixels on the screen for one or the other. For example, a 4K/UHD screen has 8 million pixels, half of which are used for the 2D image while the other half are used for the depth map.
At CES 2018, there was a 65″ custom-built flat panel with 16 million pixels in a 4K x 4K array. The 2D image was generated by 8 million pixels, and the depth map used the other 8 million pixels.
For a 8K panel the ratio it will probably be 8 million (4K/UHD) for the 2D image and 24 million for the depth map.

Yes, the early FHD/2K versions of the system were unimpressive, but starting with the 4K panels things got better.

Maybe 8K is what is needed for this tech to become more widespread...
So lets be clear--here is my dumb, uneducated view of what this is all about...lol. Ultra D presents a 2D image in the background, then does depth mapping based on left/right eye pixel-level-depth separation and pushes the 2D out for the depth of the pixel for an illusion of depth off of the 2D background map. And, of course, to get the 3D mapping to each eye, there has to be a refractive layer for each eye that I assume is supposed to (read should) have a wide angle of view, or why do it when lenticular probably works better without the mumbo-jumbo algorithm required by this method. And all just to avoid wearing polarized glasses...hmm, just doesn't make sense. I suppose for advertising purposes, it might make sense because it's a walk-by without glasses, but for a staged presentation, glasses make more sense and hd 3D mapped to a 4K polarized screen looks great.
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post #136 of 155 Old 01-16-2019, 02:15 PM
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Well, like Morgus1 posted, it would be fine for reeling in people as an attention-grabber and then displaying real 3D with glasses inside a theater. Leia is supposed to be releasing larger glasses-free 3D screens too so I'm really perplexed how this is going to go over. I think with all the trouble that 3D has staying relevant and not a fad, if substandard 3D gets pushed this will only have a negative effect on 3D overall.

Why not lenticular? Keep in mind lenticular 3D has a very narrow field of view, so it will not work in a living room or theater setting. It does show decent 3D though straight on and perhaps better than UltraD and Leia screens but not practical as a TV. So these screens have opened up their use beyond what lenticular can do but I think at least what I've seen so far, is that the 3D effect is very limited. Maybe it's better on UltraD, I'll keep an open mind on it for now.

With the RH1 I tested a couple movies, Ready Player One and Fantastic Beasts. I could see a small layer of 3D, but it had a layered look to it. There was some out of screen effects, but usually it showed as a blur and crosstalk. And I studied the image pretty close, pausing it, changing angles. The neatest thing about the RH1 was the viewing angles which are fairly impressive. But that's not going to happen with older lenticular tech. So that's where 4V and 2D plus depth come in, but there's some drawbacks too, like a small range of 3D depth and crosstalk.

I really would like to see the UltraD in person and see how it's different than Leia and also how it compares to OLED, LCD and my DLP projection.

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post #137 of 155 Old 01-16-2019, 03:26 PM
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Hey, @tomtastic If anyone is going to audition Ultra, it should be you. You've been around this stuff and tinkered with it a long time. You have confirmed my suspicion that Ultra is simply pushing pixels forward from a 2D background into a refractive layer. Problem with that, is you will see the background and the pushed pixels at the same time in a confusing 3D perception. I think I understand the concept, but depth will be very shallow given that concept, but could be wide angle. For someone seeing this as an advertising display, it might be amusing, but for a long-length 3D presentation, it would be eye-straining after you realize that the depth isn't quite right.
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post #138 of 155 Old 01-17-2019, 12:59 AM
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Unless they changed the basic technology recently, when I was using it, it is autostereoscopy with multiple images. Basically the front layer angles the light rays so your eyes see a slightly different image. That's why it goes wavy close up as you're seeing multiple lines of images. Far away it's 2D simply because the eyes are too close to see separate images.

The whole 2D with depth map is an internal representation only, primarily for the signal format and file format. What happens is the image and depth map go into a rendering board that creates the multiple views (it's not left eye and right eye views, it's multiple views) displayed on the panel. You eyes look at the panel and see different views giving you the 3D effect.

And it is best for mild 3D, simply because it's always in 3D. If you attempt to push it, you can push it too far and be nauseated by he image (similar to how bad 3D can give you headaches). And for a screen always showing 3D, it's hard to turn it off. So the milder the better so you can watch it 24/7 without getting ill. But you can see pop out effects - I played the 3D rarities disc through the screen multiple times and I know there's a segment where I think a hand stick out. It does stick out. Ironically, I think this is where the 3D effect reaches out - I was out of the sweet spot when it showed and I definitely saw the pop out.

I've pushed the offset and depth settings. When you push it too far you get sick. But defaults are mild and always enjoyable.
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post #139 of 155 Old 01-17-2019, 07:36 AM
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[QUOTE=Worf;57452286 The whole 2D with depth map is an internal representation only, primarily for the signal format and file format. What happens is the image and depth map go into a rendering board that creates the multiple views (it's not left eye and right eye views, it's multiple views) displayed on the panel. You eyes look at the panel and see different views giving you the 3D effect.
[/QUOTE]
That is nothing more than a lenticular display on the fly.
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post #140 of 155 Old 01-17-2019, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
That is nothing more than a lenticular display on the fly.
The Ultra-D layer bonded to the display panel does not seem to be a lenticular layer - there is no need to align your eyes so that the left/right image goes to the respective eye - this layer produces a light field (with multiple views per eye, not a single view), the tech is different from the lenticular or parallax-barrier type glasses-free 3D displays. The light field display has a light scattering surface/layer which has a defined viewing cone.

RED Hydrogen One phone also uses a light field display (made by Leia), not lenticular.
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post #141 of 155 Old 01-17-2019, 10:56 AM
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post #142 of 155 Old 01-17-2019, 01:27 PM
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@dfa973 : Thanks for the link. Let's hope this 3D monitor is both affordable and works as described. If not, it will be another nail in the 3D coffin. If it works, it could start a big gaming trend--if indeed it is fast enough for gaming given the intensive software algorithm it must have to support it. I will remain uncertain until someone gets one and uses it.
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post #143 of 155 Old 01-17-2019, 04:24 PM
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There it is:

Quote from Sound and Vision : "These products are not yet available on the consumer market but the company hopes to have a brand partner this year with roll out in late 2019 or early 2020."

We've been hearing this line for 9 years now.....
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post #144 of 155 Old 01-17-2019, 11:48 PM
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Well, he gaming monitor is the easy part - and yes it can keep up. Mostly because the heavy lifting is done on the PC. The depth map signal is sent to the monitor (because when you're doing 3d in the PC, the models and such are right there, so why compute a 3d image when the raw representation is right there for you). I know when they did it, there was an SDK as well as unreal engine support. It was a special mode we had to implement - the ability to accept a raw image+depth map signal directly, bypassing the internal processor.
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post #145 of 155 Old 03-26-2019, 02:20 PM
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Just saw this...

https://lookingglassfactory.com/

Hope it is something special.
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post #146 of 155 Old 03-26-2019, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Morgus1 View Post
Just saw this...

https://lookingglassfactory.com/

Hope it is something special.
Definitely a start of something. As they grow the screen size, so will the concept. All things 3D take buyers to move them from lab to the street, so we will "see"...
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post #147 of 155 Old 04-13-2019, 06:16 PM
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Here's hoping there are no 16K panels coming soon or we'll have to wait yet again for Ultra - D glassless 3D (first it was 1080p displays then 4K and now 8K).

If it actually works I'd pay a good chunk of change extra for glassless 3D.
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post #148 of 155 Old 11-08-2019, 04:40 PM
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Well, it's fall 2019. Where is my glasses-free 3D TV? Don't see them at Best Buy.

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post #149 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 02:22 AM
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Where are the 3dtvs at best buy period...
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post #150 of 155 Old 11-09-2019, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Stream TV hopes to get products into the marketplace by the third quarter of 2018. The first offering will probably be a gaming monitor, followed by a 65″ TV
From the original article on this thread.

We've waited a whole year from that estimate. Maybe next year 3rd quarter. Yep, next year for sure. Don't panic.

Quote:
Demo footage included clips from Gravity, Life of Pi, Call of Duty, live basketball, and various commercials, such as the Heineken ad seen in the photo above. Stream TV had pre-processed the clips into the Ultra-D format, though this can be done in real time as well. The effect was entirely natural with no visible crosstalk. As I moved around the room, I could see subtle wavy distortions, but not when I was sitting in any one location, even if I moved my head. It was very impressive!
Footage pre-processed in 2D plus depth, which comes at a cost or you would need to buy the title again possibly thru their streaming network but not straight from the 3D disc then. What we need to know is if current native 3D content will work on the fly and how does that compare to a glasses 3D TV. We've only had one reviewer on here with a direct comparison with an OLED screen and it doesn't seem up to the task.
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Last edited by tomtastic; 11-09-2019 at 10:33 AM.
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