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post #31 of 100 Old 03-06-2014, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I have the same experience. s3D based on 1080 50i is not an issue for the 3D-HDTVs, and I do not think that 1080 60i will be an issue.

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post #32 of 100 Old 03-10-2014, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

I have the same experience. s3D based on 1080 50i is not an issue for the 3D-HDTVs, and I do not think that 1080 60i will be an issue.

So the problem is with projectors then? Cause my Benqw1070 and many similar 3d projectors do not support frame packed 1080 50 or 60i at all! Can we rely on Samgung and LG 3D HDTVs with active shutter glasses (latest models)? I am having difficulty to find this info on their spec sheets.. 

 

But although price for JVC td1 was best nowadays around 550-600 usd I found a clean second hand 24p capable GY-HMZ1 and did not want to risk to spend so much time with 60i to 24p conversion for bluray. However once have the time planing on separating L and R 60i images from GY-HMZ1 convert them to 60p with revisionfx's FieldsKit (users report very good results) and later convert 60p video to 24p with twixtor and later again merge L and R images and compare it with 24p original HMZ1 footage. The result can be interesting for most people who wants the best quality from their 60i jvc footage and distribute them in bluray although my described method is a bit time consuming.. BUT once we edit and finalize everything in 60i IF WE REALLY want the best 24p 3d bluray then it can worth it! Thanks 

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post #33 of 100 Old 03-10-2014, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I cannot say anything about your Benq projectors. But I know that my Panasonic 3D-HDTV can handle 1080 50i footage from the TD10 without any issue.

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post #34 of 100 Old 03-10-2014, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gur75 View Post

So the problem is with projectors then? Cause my Benqw1070 and many similar 3d projectors do not support frame packed 1080 50 or 60i at all! Can we rely on Samgung and LG 3D HDTVs with active shutter glasses (latest models)? I am having difficulty to find this info on their spec sheets.. 

But although price for JVC td1 was best nowadays around 550-600 usd I found a clean second hand 24p capable GY-HMZ1 and did not want to risk to spend so much time with 60i to 24p conversion for bluray. However once have the time planing on separating L and R 60i images from GY-HMZ1 convert them to 60p with revisionfx's FieldsKit (users report very good results) and later convert 60p video to 24p with twixtor and later again merge L and R images and compare it with 24p original HMZ1 footage. The result can be interesting for most people who wants the best quality from their 60i jvc footage and distribute them in bluray although my described method is a bit time consuming.. BUT once we edit and finalize everything in 60i IF WE REALLY want the best 24p 3d bluray then it can worth it! Thanks 

I've had compatibility issues with my JVC TD1's video (MVC) output and Samsung D7000 3D plasma, and with my Epson 6010 projector. I wouldn't count on being able to hook up a JVC camcorder directly and get good playback. It may work, but it may not. It's been my experience that there are worse compatibility issues today then there were 4 years ago. Get the HMZ1 and shoot at 24p. I shoot almost everything in 3D at 24p these days (with a JVC HMZ1 and Panasonic Z10K). It makes life so much easier when you edit. The HMZ1 also comes with a utility that splits the the MVC video into left/right h..264 files that can be used by most NLEs. I find Vegas fine for converting my TD1 60i footage to 24p, but I've always shot with slow pans that minimized artifacts. Of course, fast pans and/or fast moving subjects can be a real problem.

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post #35 of 100 Old 03-11-2014, 10:21 AM
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Joe- In your opinion, is it better to shoot, edit, and render with 24p if working hand held, or to switch your Z10K to 1080 60i then edit with that setting and only render to 24P for the BluRay? This choice has to do with occasional clips that have some faster hand held pans than you would normally do with sticks and a good fluid head.

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post #36 of 100 Old 03-11-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Joe- In your opinion, is it better to shoot, edit, and render with 24p if working hand held, or to switch your Z10K to 1080 60i then edit with that setting and only render to 24P for the BluRay? This choice has to do with occasional clips that have some faster hand held pans than you would normally do with sticks and a good fluid head.

That's a good point, Don. The fact is that I almost never use the Z10k handheld. I grab the JVC TD1 or HMZ1 for handheld shoots - family stuff, or anything where I need maximum mobility. I find the Panasonic too big and heavy for those situations. When I shoot handheld, I set the camcorder to 60i, then render to 720/60p 3D in post. For those occasions, I usually edit in PowerDirector. It's great for powering through a little project quickly.

For instance, I have great nephews who are 5 and 8. Getting those little guys is challenging. I tried to use a tripod the first time, but that experiment ended quickly. biggrin.gif Now I just run and gun (usually with the TD1). When I get home, I take out the SD card and transfer the clips onto an SSD in my edit PC. I can throw together a 60p 3D video in no time. For more serious work, I almost never shoot handheld. It's either a tripod or Steadicam. I shoot and edit in 24p.

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post #37 of 100 Old 03-11-2014, 11:13 PM
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So, you rarely or never mix the two camera formats?

What I was trying to determine is if I switch to 60i for my motion handheld scenes, ie run and gun. then back to 1080 24p for tripod stuff, how it will fare when I edit a mix of the two shots in a project rendered to 1080 24P.

A typical large project for me will be shot with:

1080 60i on the TD10
1080 24p or 1080 60i on the Z10k
1080 24p or 1080 60p on the NEX 5n twin rig using very wide angle and wide IA.
I also do pickup shots with my Panasonic 3D1 in SBS and MPO stills.

All mixed to 1080 24P

I may try my luck hauling my Z10K at Disneyland in a couple weeks since the park is smaller and when we are going there I expect low traffic / crowds. The new wider angle lens should help also with the handheld.

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post #38 of 100 Old 03-12-2014, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
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When I run in the situation that I have to mix 1080 50i footage from my TD10-units with Z10K footage I always set the Z10K to 1080 50i too - to avoid the situation that I have to mix up footage with different frame rates.

I think for 1080 60i it is even worser - since for 50i I could convert the footage be deinterlacing and stretching in a perfect way to 24p, but with 60i you can render the footage only to 24p (and we know that this will not be perfect).

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post #39 of 100 Old 03-12-2014, 08:33 AM
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Wolfgang- I knew that's what you were doing from prior discussions. I don't have that option with 60i which is why I addressed the question to Joe. Unfortunately, I don't think is process is quite like mine. So far for home video use what I do is acceptable but still looking to get some improvement for handheld 24P shooting. I shot my Carlsbad Caverns tour with 24P for all the cave video which also was dark. However, I wanted my opening chapter to be the drive into the park shot with my TD-10 in 60i as a windshield car cam. I love how that is working with the polar filter and the mount I made. I use my second TD10 in 2D mode to shoot the GPS screen and sync the two. But all this is 60i then rendered to 24P for the final presentation file.
The cave footage was all 24P plus all hand held and walking. So there is some wobble to the footage. Because of the scene movement there are many scenes with some stutter due to 24 fps not keeping up with the handheld motion.

While a steadicam would work, I doubt I have the stamina at my age to walk the steep trails in the cave. I know I don't. So that is out of the question, but I plan to use a monopod with a detachable ballast to stabilize the wobble I saw from my last trip in the cave. It will just be a little steadicam conversion kit I can attach to my monopod for the walking shots. I also bought the Cyclopital wide angle adapter that will help. The final decision will be should I shoot in 60i or stay 24P ?

I will be returning to Carlsbad Caverns in a couple weeks to shoot another passage that is smaller and tighter on a special tour and will need to travel lighter too. I'd like to have this decided. If I could shoot the Z10K with 1080 60p that would be ideal but it only supports 1080 30p.

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post #40 of 100 Old 03-12-2014, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

So, you rarely or never mix the two camera formats?

What I was trying to determine is if I switch to 60i for my motion handheld scenes, ie run and gun. then back to 1080 24p for tripod stuff, how it will fare when I edit a mix of the two shots in a project rendered to 1080 24P.

A typical large project for me will be shot with:

1080 60i on the TD10
1080 24p or 1080 60i on the Z10k
1080 24p or 1080 60p on the NEX 5n twin rig using very wide angle and wide IA.
I also do pickup shots with my Panasonic 3D1 in SBS and MPO stills.

All mixed to 1080 24P

I may try my luck hauling my Z10K at Disneyland in a couple weeks since the park is smaller and when we are going there I expect low traffic / crowds. The new wider angle lens should help also with the handheld.

I try very hard not to mix cameras, but it all depends on the project. If I were shooting mainly handheld in Carlsbad Caverns, I'd probably shoot the whole thing at 60i, then render to 720/60p for a 3D Blu-ray. When I first experimented with this type of workflow back in 2011, I was getting too many MPEG artifacts and loss of fine detail. I gave up on it. But with Edius, I can maintain quality a lot better. 1920x1080/60i translates well to 1280x720/60p and maintains motion without introducing judder. Barry C did it with his coral reef video and I think it turned out great.

With my Garden project, I found out after 2 or 3 days of shooting that moderate to fast movement of any kind was going to destroy the look of the video. That's when I slowed everything down dramatically. All my pans and tilts after that point were at least twice as slow as what I would have done for 2D, and everything is tripod or Steadicam. Although it was at the cost of a more dynamic video, that decision has made it possible for me to convert the TD1's 1080/60i footage cleanly to 1080/24p. I can also mix the 60i footage that I shot with the TD1 with 24p footage from the HMZ1. This approach works well, I think, because of the nature of this particular video - i.e. tons of beauty shots in a serene setting. It would not work at a Nascar race, or even if I did a project at Meramec Caverns - Jesse James' old hideout here in Missouri. I'm thinking about doing that one. I doubt they'd take kindly to having me suited up in the Steadicam rig and strolling around down there. biggrin.gif Although there are things I prefer about the Panasonic Z10k (such as the wider angle you mention), its look is different than my JVCs. That can be changed with the scene settings or in post, of course, but it requires more effort and it still doesn't match quite as well as using the two JVCs. I learned to tame a color saturation problem with the JVCs easily when necessary. I created video filters for Edius that make red look less like a nuclear explosion, and they mute other colors that can bloom in certain kinds of lighting. I do plan to use some of the Z10k footage in my Garden project, but it will be for specific intro sequences, and they'll have their own "look and feel." I'll match them as closely as possible to the JVC video.

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post #41 of 100 Old 03-12-2014, 11:51 AM
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With a Steadicam type attachment to the monopod, I'd shoot at 24p and move slowly. If it were all strictly handheld at 60i, it would probably have too much unacceptable judder when converted to 24p.

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post #42 of 100 Old 03-12-2014, 08:58 PM
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But the TD-10 clips converted to 24P look fine. I'm thinking of shooting the walking tour in 60i and as a personal backup grab a bunch of stills in 3D.

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post #43 of 100 Old 03-13-2014, 10:39 AM
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Yes, Vegas does a much, much better job of converting 60i to 24p than it did a couple/three years back. I remember being happy to have a plug-in filter as a stopgap until , IIRC, Vegas version 11.

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I'm way out of my league here, but I have the new Sony Movie Studio 13 Platinum (vegas clone), and have had problems with judder for handheld video going to 24p bluray from SBS 60i with my Panasonic 3D1. That said they have a filter that creates a phantom image in the frame to blur the transition of frame to frame. It seems to work well for all but the fastest pans I have. Going to 24p with a fast pan is judder vomit material for me and the audience in 3D. Which is too bad, since I find MPO stills now in frame packed to be ideal, and I don't have to SBS them anymore. Of course, I learned late to slow pan to a crawl now, and the video is great as long as it's well lighted. And I'm probably saying this just to hear myself talk...rolleyes.gifwink.gif
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post #45 of 100 Old 03-22-2014, 11:48 AM
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Hello,

 

one question from me side.

 

I have a Sony camcorder TD20.

It records 3D Files in MVC 1080 50i format.

I´ve create an AVCHD 2.0 confirmed Blu Ray Disc with Sony´s Play Memories Home.

 

The video files at the Disc have also the MVC 1080 50i 3D format (that´s O.K. and check it with Mediainfo).

 

BUT, it is impossible to play the Disc in the 1080i Resolution on my Beamer Panasonic AT6000 in connection with Denon AVR3313.

I tried the Sony Bluray Player S590, the newer S5200 and the new Pansonic BDT 234.

All these players should can handle AVCHD 3D.

 

I tried out many settings, but the BD Players always switch to the 720p Format. It is total crazy.

 

I don´t believe, thats a problem with my beamer or Denon.

If I connect the TD20 direct with HDMI cable on the Denon, the videos will play correctly in 1080 50i 3D on my beamer.

 

Does anybody know more about this problem ?

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post #46 of 100 Old 03-22-2014, 01:02 PM
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I've had plenty of compatibility issues trying to get AVDHD 2.0 discs to work with my gear, including a problem where my Epson projector (beamer) switched to 720p (or even lower resolution). The most compatible software for me came with my JVC camcorders. Using MediaBrowser, I could burn a disc that maintained the most original 60i image (NTSC) 3D quality and played most consistently in AVCHD 2.0 compatible Blu-ray players. Other combinations of software and hardware wouldn't work. This is a problem for which you may never find a consistent solution, and it's a reflection of how poorly this "standard" was implemented.

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post #47 of 100 Old 03-23-2014, 01:02 PM
 
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I was unable to burn an AVCHD disc for my Sony 590 bluray player, and finally found Sony Movie Studio 13 could cut a full frame-packed 3D bluray and that plays great on my Sony 590.
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post #48 of 100 Old 03-26-2014, 04:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Vegas Movie Studio 13 does exactly the same as Vegas Pro - it generates an MVC-based 3D-Blu-ray if you make an s3D output from the timeline using the Sony AVC encoder. Means you are limited to 720 50p/60p or 1080 24p. side-by-side is possible too.

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post #49 of 100 Old 03-27-2014, 07:54 AM
 
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My only complaint with Movie Studio 13 is for 1080/24p 3D bluray, the video looks very choppy, but the stills are great. I didn't think about creating a 720/60p disc of my video--thanks for the tip Wolfgang.
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post #50 of 100 Old 03-28-2014, 06:53 PM
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There's a lot of processing going on when Vegas converts 1080/60i to 1080/24p. It's usually not a serious problem if the scene is static, but as soon as you introduce motion the results can start to look very choppy. It has to try to de-interlace the 60 1920x540 fields of the original footage, then decide what to throw away and what to keep when it drops down to 24 progressive frames. Things can get messy fast, as the software tries to figure the best balance between judder and blurring. Neither is desirable, but even moderate motion forces a compromise. Fortunately, Vegas is much better at doing this than it used to be. Often, the better compromise is simply to scale each 1920x540 field of the 60i video to 60 1280x720 progressive frames per second. IMO, this is the only viable option for certain types of video. The original motion is maintained frame by frame, at the expense of spatial resolution, but the trade-off is more than worth it.

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post #51 of 100 Old 03-29-2014, 09:20 AM
 
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Thanks Joseph, I will try that and let you all know the results.
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post #52 of 100 Old 02-08-2015, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hallansen View Post
Hello,

one question from me side.

I have a Sony camcorder TD20.
It records 3D Files in MVC 1080 50i format.
I´ve create an AVCHD 2.0 confirmed Blu Ray Disc with Sony´s Play Memories Home.

The video files at the Disc have also the MVC 1080 50i 3D format (that´s O.K. and check it with Mediainfo).

BUT, it is impossible to play the Disc in the 1080i Resolution on my Beamer Panasonic AT6000 in connection with Denon AVR3313.
I tried the Sony Bluray Player S590, the newer S5200 and the new Pansonic BDT 234.
All these players should can handle AVCHD 3D.

I tried out many settings, but the BD Players always switch to the 720p Format. It is total crazy.

I don´t believe, thats a problem with my beamer or Denon.
If I connect the TD20 direct with HDMI cable on the Denon, the videos will play correctly in 1080 50i 3D on my beamer.

Does anybody know more about this problem ?

This is an old post but I think I'm having the exact same issue, although I've narrowed it down
a bit more.


Burned a AVCHD 3D disk (BD-RE) from my TD20 clips with no quality loss. Newer Sony 3D player
BDP-BX520 HDMI switched via Yamaha HDMI 1.4 receiver RX-A2000 connecting to Panasonic
3D plasma TV. any video processing on the Yamaha receiver is completely turned OFF


1) In the above connection configuration, the disk output shows 720/60P (3D) on the Sony player.


2) Camcorder TD20 HDMI connected directly to the same
Yamaha receiver, shows TV is receiving full resolution 1080 (3D) correctly switched via the receiver.


3) Sony Blu-ray player HDMI connected directly to TV (bypassing receiver)
shows the Blu-ray player output as full-res 1080 (3D).


What I want is somehow to get the setup #1 above to output full-res 3D. I can clearly see the
artifacts on that setup now due to the limited 720.


Based on the above experiments, it appears the Sony Blu-ray player is not sending
the 1080 signal to the Yamaha receiver only when playing a AVCHD 3D disk.
But it happily does so when the same signal is going direct to the TV. I played with the Blu-ray player
video out settings but so far unable to get it to do what I want..


Anyone care to comment?

Last edited by termite; 02-08-2015 at 04:38 PM.
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post #53 of 100 Old 02-09-2015, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Receivers must be able to pass-through the s3D signal from the 3D-Blu-ray player to the 3D-Beamer or 3D-HDTV. If the signal is not passed through when using AVCHD 2.0, then maybe because both 1080 50i/1080 60i from the 3D-Blu-ray player is not accepted by the receivers as a valid 3D-signal (maybe the receiver expects only what is 3D-Bluray conform, what would be 720 50p, 720 60p and 1080 24p). AVCHD 2.0 is an extended format.




In that case you will have to connect the 3D-Bluray player with the beamer/HDTV in a direct way - and can hope that there may be a firmware-update for the receiver (what is unlikely to take place I am afraid).

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post #54 of 100 Old 02-09-2015, 01:51 PM
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What's needed could very well be a firmware update for the receiver but I could also see a different
angle to this.

Basically when the AVCHD disk is playing on the Blu-ray player which is connected to the TV
through the receiver, we have 2 separate signal information screens:


1) The signal "output" display on the Blu-ray player. (accessed by the Blu-ray player remote)
This one shows it's sending out only a 720/60p signal into the receiver.

2) The signal "input" and "output" screen on the receiver display (accessed by the receiver remote)
This one shows the receiver is receiving a 720/60p and sending out (to the TV) the same 720/60p
unmodified. (video processing disabled by me on the receiver so this is expected)

From the above observation, it seems to me that the Blu-ray player is not sending the full 1080p
into the receiver to begin with. It however sends the full signal out, when the player is connected to
display directly.

Based on this one could also argue that maybe the Blu-ray player is the one which needs the FW
update so that it has some way to allow sending the full signal out regardless of what's at the other
end of the HDMI cable.
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post #55 of 100 Old 02-12-2015, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I think it is easier. Check if it works standalone when you connect BD-Player with the beamer. And if it works if the av-receiver is between BD-Player and beamer.


If the direct connetion works but the second one not - then it is the av-receiver.

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post #56 of 100 Old 02-14-2015, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post
I think it is easier. Check if it works standalone when you connect BD-Player with the beamer. And if it works if the av-receiver is between BD-Player and beamer.


If the direct connetion works but the second one not - then it is the av-receiver.
Wolfgang, I think that Termite already tested it and that direct connection works.
I agree that it might be av-receiver issue, but it might not as well. Why? Blu-ray player communicates with receiver in order to determine what kind of signals receiver accepts. It might happen that Blu-ray player thinks that connected receiver accepts only 720p50/60 and not 1080p50/60, even though receiver might accept later one as well. However, I think that it's more likely to be receiver's fault except if Termite finds out that receiver is realy capable of transmitting 1080p50/60 s3d signal.

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post #57 of 100 Old 02-14-2015, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I do not think so. Most receivers will only throughpass the signal - and must allow the handshake between 3D-Blu-ray player and 3D-HDTV or 3D-beamer. If the handshake is blocked but if it works without the receiver - well: then you have shown that the receiver blocks something. The AVCHD 2.0 3D-Blu-ray player allows 1080 50i/60i in the playback if the direct connecton works fine, and the beamer will allow that. But not when the av receiver is between. That is not so great - but might happen.

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post #58 of 100 Old 02-14-2015, 11:55 AM
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I was also trying to make the same point as Damir.


Why is it that the Blu-ray player's own signal output display is showing that it's sending a 720/60P
signal to the receiver?


If I see it's sending 1080/60i in playback to the receiver and I'm only getting 720/60P in the display,
then it's safe to say the receiver blocked the signal it received. Otherwise it looks to me like the blu-ray player never sent the 1080/60i to the receiver.
(Receivers own internal signal input/output display also confirms this)

Last edited by termite; 02-14-2015 at 12:02 PM.
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post #59 of 100 Old 02-15-2015, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by termite View Post
Why is it that the Blu-ray player's own signal output display is showing that it's sending a 720/60P signal to the receiver?

If I see it's sending 1080/60i in playback to the receiver and I'm only getting 720/60P in the display,
then it's safe to say the receiver blocked the signal it received. Otherwise it looks to me like the blu-ray player never sent the 1080/60i to the receiver.
(Receivers own internal signal input/output display also confirms this)

Well, you confimed by yourself what happens if you connect your Blu-ray player directly to the TV:
Quote:
Originally Posted by termite View Post
3) Sony Blu-ray player HDMI connected directly to TV (bypassing receiver) shows the Blu-ray player output as full-res 1080 (3D).

If the direct connection works fine in 1080i/p, I ask myself why you think that we have to blame the player for that?


But whatever the reason is - what can be a solution? Maybe a possible solution could be to use a hdmi-switch, where you connect the Blu-ray player directly with the hdtv/beamer. Or to wait if you are so lucky and if upcoming firmware-updates will solve that for you. I was so lucky - my Acer 3D beamer was not found as 3D unit when I passed the signal over my Denon receiver. An firmware-update for the Denon solved that for me.

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post #60 of 100 Old 02-15-2015, 10:56 AM
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Thanks for the reply. My thinking was that two devices at the opposite ends of the HDMI cable
communicates with each other and decide what/how to send the signal. Based on that thinking,
FW upgrade to any one of the 2 devices can possibly solve an issue. When the 3D monitor at the
other end, the player sees that as a valid receiver to send the AVCHD 1080/60i signal and happily
does so. However, when it sees the receiver at the other end, player for some reason doesn't recognize
that as a valid device to send the same signal and instead sends a 720/60p. So the problem becomes,
how to make the player send the AVCHD 1080/60i signal to the receiver. That has to do with
making the player recognize the receiver as a valid device and FW upgrade to the receiver can help
for sure. But I was also thinking maybe we can do something to the player also so that it'll send this
signal out regardless of what device the HDMI cable is connected to. Sounds unlikely.. based on what
I'm hearing here ..


Anyways I agree that I have to find a solution to this. Do you know of any HDMI switch that might
work? Or maybe what I really need is a HDMI splitter with one out for the receiver (audio) and the
other to the 3D projector (video) ..

something like this perhaps?
http://www.amazon.com/Panlong-PL-912...597774-7994943

Last edited by termite; 02-15-2015 at 01:12 PM.
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