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post #61 of 100 Old 02-16-2015, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I have very good experience with this splitter:


http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00Q...ilpage_o04_s00


- no switch time, since you can see even an 3D picture both on the beamer and the HDTV
- 3D capable for sure

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post #62 of 100 Old 02-16-2015, 09:53 AM
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Thanks! Yes my situation is similar .. currently the receiver is sending 2 HDMI outputs to the 3D Plasma & the 3D Projector.
Good discussion here ..
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post #63 of 100 Old 02-18-2015, 12:40 AM
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Unhappy

Another new development today is adding to this puzzle..
In my previous experiment I only tried connecting Sony player directly to my 3D Panasonic plasma
and during AVCHD playback it sent a full 1080/60i 3D signal when by-passing the receiver
middleman. Today I connected my Epson 5030UB 3D projector directly to the Sony expecting the
same results. To my surprise the player was only sending a 720/60P to my projector even though
the receiver is by-passed.

Now what does this tell us now? Receiver is no longer in the picture ..

On the other hand when I connect the camcorder to the projector and even when going thru
the receiver I get the full 1080/60i 3D on Epson.


Seems like the HDMI switch/splitter is not going to help here ..
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post #64 of 100 Old 02-19-2015, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Some Blu-ray player seems to send out 720 50p/60p only, if you play back own footage from a BD-RE. I do not know if you use that?


And the only answer is: use your other player! Not so nice, but a pragmatic solution.

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post #65 of 100 Old 03-06-2015, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by termite View Post
On the other hand when I connect the camcorder to the projector and even when going thru
the receiver I get the full 1080/60i 3D on Epson.
This maybe a dumb question, but I've run into this before and didn't see you mention it (apologies if you did): is your camera set (on s3D output) to "AUTO" or to Frame-Packed? If it's set to Auto, chances are it's down converting to SBS and not true frame-packed 1080i to your Epson.

Set your camera playback to Frame-Packed, then test with your Epson. If it works, then I agree, it's another issue. Otherwise, if it doesn't work, then your camera/Epson combo was working only in SBS and not true frame packed 1080i.
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post #66 of 100 Old 03-07-2015, 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jet-X View Post
This maybe a dumb question, but I've run into this before and didn't see you mention it (apologies if you did): is your camera set (on s3D output) to "AUTO" or to Frame-Packed? If it's set to Auto, chances are it's down converting to SBS and not true frame-packed 1080i to your Epson.

Set your camera playback to Frame-Packed, then test with your Epson. If it works, then I agree, it's another issue. Otherwise, if it doesn't work, then your camera/Epson combo was working only in SBS and not true frame packed 1080i.
Not a dumb question at all and thank you very much for that insight! You're absolutely right
on this guess and I had set my camera HDMI out to "AUTO" and it was converting internally
to SBS for Epson. This signal is displayed as such regardless of whether it's sent via the receiver
or not. When I set the camera HDMI out to "Frame Packed", even the direct connection to Epson
fails to display the video. Epson shows "unsupported" for this.
However the image when in SBS looks very good even on the large screen. It's displayed as 1080/24
and the camera internal conversion seems excellent.


Now I'd be happy if I can find a way to produce the same quality on the AVCHD 1080/60i disk
playback displayed on Epson. It now defaults to 720/60p (3D) even when I have a direct
connection from the blu-ray player and looks visibly inferior.

Last edited by termite; 03-07-2015 at 12:50 AM.
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post #67 of 100 Old 03-07-2015, 11:12 AM
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Now I'd be happy if I can find a way to produce the same quality on the AVCHD 1080/60i disk
playback displayed on Epson. It now defaults to 720/60p (3D) even when I have a direct
connection from the blu-ray player and looks visibly inferior.
So if your Epson will not take the frame-packed signal from your camera, it's not going to take the 1080i/60 disc signal either (from here on out, 1080i/60 refers to frame packed, not SBS). The Blu-Ray player will likely down convert it to 720p so it plays back.

And that to date has been my frustration: this half-baked 3D consumer format. 3D Blu-Ray specs were outlined in 2009, and AVCHD in 2011. You have 1080p/24 or 720p/60 for Blu-Ray 3D (you can do SBS, but that's not officially classified as a Blu-Ray 3D disc), and 1080i/60 for AVCHD. Panasonic releases an SBS camera, Sony and JVC release the AVCHD cameras. And all three companies are member of the Blu-Ray association, 2 of which are director level control companies. Yet, no one could seem to get their head around 3D from a content (professional) and consumer supported formats. It's no wonder 3D is on life support (albeit morphing into VR).

I've read the AVS 3D forums ad-naseum, and my take away is there is no perfect authoring solution for consumer 3D (just personal preference), especially when it comes to 1080i/60 AVCHD. What makes matters worse, even if the workflow existed tomorrow, there's no guarantee your display will accept said format. My Toshiba 3D panel will not accept 1080i/60 frame packed. From the camera, it requires SBS. From the Blu-Ray player (Sony S380) it is downconverted.

This really leaves me (personally) with a few choices, as I want to go deep with 3D, but I don't like the editing formats.

- Sony Vegas, first off, I say major FAIL to Sony for not incorporating an 1080i/60 AVCHD option (disc or SD card) in either Vegas Pro or the cheaper consumer version. It's just dumb to not even offer the format choice that your very own camera operates at. It's sad Sony can't even get it right (and I worked for Sony for 7 years, consumer electronics group is dysfunctional) with their hardware/software. But this is the software that outputs consistent Blu-Ray 3D compliant results. Personally, I hate, absolutely, hate the interface and editing vs. Premiere/Final Cut/etc and the stability across a multitude of system configs is terrible. That's just me, kudos to everyone that loves it.

- Power Director, it's not bad, but before I blow anymore money on software, I wanted to demo it. Can't demo the 3D outputs, that's all been disabled in the trial. Seems to be one of the only other options.

- Pinnacle Studio, no longer allows trials, and again, I'm just weary of wasting more money on another workflow that may/may not work.

- Edius, tried that, it's not bad, but I also don't find it good. Again, just differences in workflows with regards to editing, layout, tools, functionality vs. Adobe Premiere and every other editor out there. Seems to work, but I have reservations, given my 3D output, while it worked flawlessly, was 1/4 the size of the same exact edit/output from Vegas. And at $600+, again, just not comfortable or confident I'm getting a clean and avoiding recompression (on all but actual changes like MainConcept is known for).

Now, I was holding out hope for the new 4K Ultra HD Blu-Ray spec (specifically, a 1080p/60 3D inclusion), and then there could be a path to going from 1080i/60 acquisition to conversion to 1080p/60 (or even 30 - Blu-Ray does not support this format, only supports 1080p/24 or 1080i/30). Well, it's been announced there will be no additional 3D formats/modes added to 4k Ultra HD Blu-Ray spec. Nail in the 3D coffin here.

So, what does that leave users with a choice of (in my opinion):

- Continue to acquire at 1080i/60 and then either change editors (Edius/Power Director/Pinnacle Studio) to burn to a 1080i AVCHD disc, and hope you have compatible equipment that will play it back (and hold onto it, since the spec appears to be all but dead at this point);
- Use the included Sony PMB or PMH software to just burn your disc with little to no editing (the player downconversion is 10x worse than exporting from Sony Vegas at same 720p output)
- Continue to acquire at 1080i/60 and then for your final output, change to 1080p/24 (to much of a frame rate hit for my liking) or 720p/60 (my preference at this point);
- Consider switching to SBS outputs (not an option for me - I don't like the 50% horizontal resolution hit), but has the highest compatibility rate IMO;
- Consider switching to either the JVC HMZ1P or the Sony NX3D1U for native 1080p/24 capture and Blu-Ray output (excluding the $20k Sony and Panasonic 3D cameras) and using one of the above editing programs to stay native all the way through;

Finally, I considered getting the JVC TD1, and just using their POS editor to stay native from import to export, and then use a media player to play the native 1080i/60 s3D files. And yes, the JVC editor is a POS, but I only need cuts and fades (and for music, I could spit out my final edit, bring into Premiere, do my final sound edit, export sound only, bring back into JVC with the single soundtrack file limitation, and export my final edit). But you are still limited to your display accepting the 1080i/60 signal, which it appears many don't, and you can't assume new displays will.

It kills me Adobe didn't incorporate a template into Premiere to edit 3D natively and export to what I consider the three formats (BR 3D 1080p/24, 720p60; AVCHD 1080i/60).

So right now, I may continue shooting with the TD10 and just exporting 720p/60, and may get a NX3D1U and shoot 1080p24 natively, edit with that.

In a perfect world, I could edit in Premiere, export an EDL and import in Sony Vegas just to export to a 3D Blu-Ray, but while Vegas Pro 12/13 supposedly has this ability, all the reviews I've seen says it doesn't work or barely works (for 2D).

Anyway, I'm rambling at this point, but this is what it is, and your ability to play raw or edited 1080i60 s3D is very, very limited.
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post #68 of 100 Old 03-07-2015, 03:38 PM
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Pretty good summary, Jet-X, as to the state of affairs with consumer 3D shooting and editing. There is no trouble free 60i 3D format. It's a pity. You left out the Panasonic Z10000 as a relatively low cost native 24p 3D camcorder. It costs more than the smaller options (JVC, Sony), but it allows you to stay with a single camcorder and editor (Sony Vegas) all the way to Blu-ray 3D disc creation. It's also bigger and bulkier than the others.

Aside from the Panny, my camcorder of choice for most things is the JVC HMZ1. It's small, light weight and produces high quality 3D. I like Edius because it supports all my JVC 3D video natively and allows me to export to very high quality 24p files. From there, Blu-ray 3D at 1920x1080 is a small step in Vegas. It's a good workflow that produces good looking, standard discs that play in just about any 3D player ever made. It's not a perfect solution, but unless there's some magical turnaround with 60i 3D, it's the best I can do.

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post #69 of 100 Old 03-07-2015, 04:54 PM
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you left out the Panasonic Z10000 as a relatively low cost native 24p 3D camcorder
My bad Joe, I did forget about this camera. Kept thinking of the higher end $20k camera.

But I'd say 1080i/60 s3D for an final output format is dead.

Your workflow works for you which is great and I agree,staying native as much as possible is best to ensure the least amount of image degradation for the final result. I'm still on the fence what I'm going to do, but still considering all options. I am also looking into the JVC as an option as well, because if I'm going to have a final output at 24fps, then I'm going to shoot 24fps.

Sad that the consumer electronics industry is still screwed up today as they were decades ago.
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Yes, I struggled to find a viable and consistent frame packed 60i workflow and gave up. There's simply no guaranteed compatibility for the format in either software or hardware. It's a real shame, because if 60i 3D were a real "standard," I'd have no trouble living with it. Two days after starting to shoot with my JVC TD1 at full 34 mbps MVC quality, I knew it was capable of producing some jaw-droppingly beautiful 60i 3D video. But 4 years later, I still have to compromise that quality if I want the video on a standard Blu-ray 3D disc.

With all that said, my workflow results are really good for consumer gear, and I consider myself lucky. Those of us who love 3D have been able to acquire some great 3D production tools over the last four years. I'm still holding out hope that glasses-free 3D TVs (and an Avatar sequel in 2016) will revitalize consumer 3D. Even if it doesn't, I'm still having a blast with this hobby - and the 3D production friends I've made here on AVS.

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post #71 of 100 Old 03-08-2015, 01:04 AM
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Yes, I struggled to find a viable and consistent frame packed 60i workflow and gave up. There's simply no guaranteed compatibility for the format in either software or hardware. It's a real shame, because if 60i 3D were a real "standard," I'd have no trouble living with it. Two days after starting to shoot with my JVC TD1 at full 34 mbps MVC quality, I knew it was capable of producing some jaw-droppingly beautiful 60i 3D video. But 4 years later, I still have to compromise that quality if I want the video on a standard Blu-ray 3D disc.
...and with that said, I'm still intrigued with the JVC, but incredibly disappointed with Sony Vegas's lack of implementation of the MP4 container from JVC, and the lack of maintaining any real bitrate from the cameras (instead capping it at 15mbps for the left eye, and the incremental part for the right eye - I've witnessed 25mbps max). 60i is what intrigued me, and yes, interlacing artifacts aside, it looks great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark
With all that said, my workflow results are really good for consumer gear, and I consider myself lucky. Those of us who love 3D have been able to acquire some great 3D production tools over the last four years. I'm still holding out hope that glasses-free 3D TVs (and an Avatar sequel in 2016) will revitalize consumer 3D. Even if it doesn't, I'm still having a blast with this hobby - and the 3D production friends I've made here on AVS.
Well, at the 2014 CES, there were quite a few sets that did this well. I remember Toshiba (my wife works there, but in different group than TV), and in spending time in their booth, they had a set that could do multiple viewing points (i.e. 5 or so different viewers sitting in different positions) with a glasses free unit, albeit at 720p (this was if I recall correctly a 1080p set, but could have been a 4k set). Sadly we'll never see this unit ship. Toshiba not only didn't show it at CES 2015, but has now licensed their name to a Chinese TV set manufacturer.

Normally I wouldn't care so much about 1080i/60, but dammit it works so well, and should have been a supported format. Then again, Blu-Ray doesn't even formally support a 1080p/30 frame rate (you must do 30i, not progressive), so in some ways not surprising.
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post #72 of 100 Old 03-08-2015, 01:20 PM
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Ultra-D is the glasses-free 3D format that I've been watching for a while now. It's getting pretty good reviews (including Don Landis) and will be shipping this year. That is, it appears to be ready to ship in products this year, after multiple delays. Manufacturers may be reluctant to release 3D again, after its tepid acceptance in the marketplace, but word has it that there are companies lining up to buy it for commercial applications. Once it starts appearing in the public, I think the biggest 3D stigma (glasses) will go away and more people will be inclined to buy a 3D set.

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post #73 of 100 Old 03-08-2015, 07:59 PM
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So if your Epson will not take the frame-packed signal from your camera, it's not going to take the 1080i/60 disc signal either (from here on out, 1080i/60 refers to frame packed, not SBS). The Blu-Ray player will likely down convert it to 720p so it plays back.

And that to date has been my frustration: this half-baked 3D consumer format. 3D Blu-Ray specs were outlined in 2009, and AVCHD in 2011. You have 1080p/24 or 720p/60 for Blu-Ray 3D (you can do SBS, but that's not officially classified as a Blu-Ray 3D disc), and 1080i/60 for AVCHD. Panasonic releases an SBS camera, Sony and JVC release the AVCHD cameras. And all three companies are member of the Blu-Ray association, 2 of which are director level control companies. Yet, no one could seem to get their head around 3D from a content (professional) and consumer supported formats. It's no wonder 3D is on life support (albeit morphing into VR).

I've read the AVS 3D forums ad-naseum, and my take away is there is no perfect authoring solution for consumer 3D (just personal preference), especially when it comes to 1080i/60 AVCHD. What makes matters worse, even if the workflow existed tomorrow, there's no guarantee your display will accept said format. My Toshiba 3D panel will not accept 1080i/60 frame packed. From the camera, it requires SBS. From the Blu-Ray player (Sony S380) it is downconverted.

This really leaves me (personally) with a few choices, as I want to go deep with 3D, but I don't like the editing formats.

- Sony Vegas, first off, I say major FAIL to Sony for not incorporating an 1080i/60 AVCHD option (disc or SD card) in either Vegas Pro or the cheaper consumer version. It's just dumb to not even offer the format choice that your very own camera operates at. It's sad Sony can't even get it right (and I worked for Sony for 7 years, consumer electronics group is dysfunctional) with their hardware/software. But this is the software that outputs consistent Blu-Ray 3D compliant results. Personally, I hate, absolutely, hate the interface and editing vs. Premiere/Final Cut/etc and the stability across a multitude of system configs is terrible. That's just me, kudos to everyone that loves it.

- Power Director, it's not bad, but before I blow anymore money on software, I wanted to demo it. Can't demo the 3D outputs, that's all been disabled in the trial. Seems to be one of the only other options.

- Pinnacle Studio, no longer allows trials, and again, I'm just weary of wasting more money on another workflow that may/may not work.

- Edius, tried that, it's not bad, but I also don't find it good. Again, just differences in workflows with regards to editing, layout, tools, functionality vs. Adobe Premiere and every other editor out there. Seems to work, but I have reservations, given my 3D output, while it worked flawlessly, was 1/4 the size of the same exact edit/output from Vegas. And at $600+, again, just not comfortable or confident I'm getting a clean and avoiding recompression (on all but actual changes like MainConcept is known for).

Now, I was holding out hope for the new 4K Ultra HD Blu-Ray spec (specifically, a 1080p/60 3D inclusion), and then there could be a path to going from 1080i/60 acquisition to conversion to 1080p/60 (or even 30 - Blu-Ray does not support this format, only supports 1080p/24 or 1080i/30). Well, it's been announced there will be no additional 3D formats/modes added to 4k Ultra HD Blu-Ray spec. Nail in the 3D coffin here.

So, what does that leave users with a choice of (in my opinion):

- Continue to acquire at 1080i/60 and then either change editors (Edius/Power Director/Pinnacle Studio) to burn to a 1080i AVCHD disc, and hope you have compatible equipment that will play it back (and hold onto it, since the spec appears to be all but dead at this point);
- Use the included Sony PMB or PMH software to just burn your disc with little to no editing (the player downconversion is 10x worse than exporting from Sony Vegas at same 720p output)
- Continue to acquire at 1080i/60 and then for your final output, change to 1080p/24 (to much of a frame rate hit for my liking) or 720p/60 (my preference at this point);
- Consider switching to SBS outputs (not an option for me - I don't like the 50% horizontal resolution hit), but has the highest compatibility rate IMO;
- Consider switching to either the JVC HMZ1P or the Sony NX3D1U for native 1080p/24 capture and Blu-Ray output (excluding the $20k Sony and Panasonic 3D cameras) and using one of the above editing programs to stay native all the way through;

Finally, I considered getting the JVC TD1, and just using their POS editor to stay native from import to export, and then use a media player to play the native 1080i/60 s3D files. And yes, the JVC editor is a POS, but I only need cuts and fades (and for music, I could spit out my final edit, bring into Premiere, do my final sound edit, export sound only, bring back into JVC with the single soundtrack file limitation, and export my final edit). But you are still limited to your display accepting the 1080i/60 signal, which it appears many don't, and you can't assume new displays will.

It kills me Adobe didn't incorporate a template into Premiere to edit 3D natively and export to what I consider the three formats (BR 3D 1080p/24, 720p60; AVCHD 1080i/60).

So right now, I may continue shooting with the TD10 and just exporting 720p/60, and may get a NX3D1U and shoot 1080p24 natively, edit with that.

In a perfect world, I could edit in Premiere, export an EDL and import in Sony Vegas just to export to a 3D Blu-Ray, but while Vegas Pro 12/13 supposedly has this ability, all the reviews I've seen says it doesn't work or barely works (for 2D).

Anyway, I'm rambling at this point, but this is what it is, and your ability to play raw or edited 1080i60 s3D is very, very limited.

Great post Jet-X! Very informative.

Although my projector won't accept the Frame Packed signal direct from the camera, I found my
Panasonic 3D plasma is quite happy to display it. This is regardless of whether I have a direct
connection from the camera to the TV or if I sent it switched via my AVR. Now I see what you
mean by the non-existence of a standard here ..


I'm attaching the results of my experiments just in case someone find it useful at some point ..
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post #74 of 100 Old 03-08-2015, 08:50 PM
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That mirrors my experience with getting my JVC TD1 video to play. When I first got the camcorder in 2011, I had a Samsung C8000, one of the first 3D plasmas. I also had a JVC RS40 projector. Both played all the files (SbS and frame packed mp4) from the TD1 directly or through the AVR. The RS40 even played SbS files automatically - no need to switch manually as I had to do with the Samsung. During a winter 3D shooting hiatus, when I switched both projector (to an Epson 6010) and plasma (to a Samsung D7000 via a Best Buy replacement guarantee), the new displays refused to play back the files without tons of issues. The Samsung didn't like the mp4s anymore and wouldn't play the green channel (or red, can't recall for sure). The Epson wouldn't play the files without serious image degradation. I sent in my TD1 for repair, because I thought something had happened to it during a session in 19 degree snowy weather. It wasn't the TD1 at all, but the displays. We'd taken a big step backward, not forward. Yikes!

Yes, there is no consumer standard we can count on. It's as if the manufacturers (software and hardware) colluded to block our efforts to get consumer 3D production equipment to work properly. That may not be the case, but with the barriers that kept being thrown up, it felt like it to me at the time. All I wanted was to maintain the original quality I saw with my little TD1, but hardware and software limitations seemed dead set on not letting that happen.
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post #75 of 100 Old 03-10-2015, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, for me some of this conclusions do not take important parts into consideration:


- with 1080 24p of either the JVC or the Z10000 is is possible to create 3D-BDs that are great. I like my Z10000.
- to blame Vegas for the fact, that Vegas is one of the few consumer solutions that offer a real MVC-encoder is a funny thing. Vegas has incorporated that at least. And with 1080 24p it offers a nice workflow. To my opinion, if somebody does not like Vegas (what is fine) the next best solution is Edius. Even if Edius does not have a real MVC-encoder.
- So, other NLEs have not incorporated MVC encoder - and if they are able to generate 3D-BDs then this BDs will not stick to the standard really. Because the standard is based on MVC.
- the norm is outdated anyway. The Blu-ray consortia has not included even 1080 50p/60p over years, and not 1080 50i/60i for 3D. What a shame.
- NLEs that build in AVCHD 3D like Edius can generate AVCHD 3D BDs based on 1080 50i/60i - BUT not every 3D-BD-Player will be able to play that back.
- the future is not bright either - for the upcoming 4K-BD the Blu-ray consortia has not taken into consideration s3D at all! Again, what a shame.
- other user stick to the stereoscopic player - what is another way to present s3D.


So I like Vegas to be able to edit my TD10 or Z10000 footage, and even 720 50p from my TD10 looks better then what broadcast stations deliver with their side-by-side half format. And it works fine with my home equipment.

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post #76 of 100 Old 03-10-2015, 01:08 PM
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I believe Sony Movie Studio Platinum has support for Blu-ray 3D disc creation. Right, Wolfgang? It that's the case, then Edius + that software gives you the capability to edit JVC footage natively in Edius and then create the Blu-ray 3D with the Sony software. I started with Vegas, so it's not the workflow I use, but for JVC users it seems like a good solution if the goal is create standard Blu-ray 3D discs. I don't know if Studio lets you create 5.1 audio, though. Perhaps Wolfgang can clarify this.

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post #77 of 100 Old 03-10-2015, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post
Well, for me some of this conclusions do not take important parts into consideration:


- to blame Vegas for the fact, that Vegas is one of the few consumer solutions that offer a real MVC-encoder is a funny thing. Vegas has incorporated that at least. And with 1080 24p it offers a nice workflow. To my opinion, if somebody does not like Vegas (what is fine) the next best solution is Edius. Even if Edius does not have a real MVC-encoder.
I think something got lost in translation here. I blame Vegas for not incorporating an AVCHD 2.0 1080i/60 3D format as an option (as that's native to the camera and the select players/tv's that accept this signal).
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post #78 of 100 Old 03-10-2015, 09:41 PM
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Great discussion! Welcome to the world of 3D frustration where you're guaranteed a roadblock at every turn. Yet we persevere
My analogy for the current state of 3D:
A half finished ship, launched prematurely, and cast adrift to be forgotten.
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post #79 of 100 Old 03-11-2015, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
I believe Sony Movie Studio Platinum has support for Blu-ray 3D disc creation. Right, Wolfgang? It that's the case, then Edius + that software gives you the capability to edit JVC footage natively in Edius and then create the Blu-ray 3D with the Sony software. I started with Vegas, so it's not the workflow I use, but for JVC users it seems like a good solution if the goal is create standard Blu-ray 3D discs. I don't know if Studio lets you create 5.1 audio, though. Perhaps Wolfgang can clarify this.
Sure, you can edit the JVC footage native in Edius - render to L and R in a sepate way. Import that in Vegas Moviestudio, pair it, and generate a 3D-BD.


The only limitation is AC3 - since Vegas Moviestudio Platinum does not include the AC3 Pro encoder, but only the AC3 studio encoder (what is not 100% compatible with a Blu-ray). But what can be done is that one can use wave.

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post #80 of 100 Old 03-11-2015, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I blame Vegas for not incorporating an AVCHD 2.0 1080i/60 3D format as an option (as that's native to the camera and the select players/tv's that accept this signal).

I understood that, but it does not make sense for me. For following reasons:
- Vegas offers you a true MVC encoder. That technology is what is requested by 3D-BDs. So, if you go for 3D-BDs that are really compatible with the standard, then that is a great option.
- the major limitation is that the data rate is limited - but that is due to the fact that this technology is quite expensive in licensing (where Sony has internal advantages)
- I am not sure if AVCHD2.0 is the same format that is used in camaras like the TD10. The format this cameras use is MVC.
- AVCHD 2.0 seems to include L and R with the full data rate. That is great especially since you can render it to 1080 50i/60i - what means that you can avoid to re-scale the footage to 720 50p/60p or to render it to 1080 24p. So here you have an advantage - and that is what was discussed when I started this thread some years ago. However, the major disadvange is that AVCHD authored on a BD will be compatible with AVCHD 2.0/3D capable Blu-ray players - and specifications tend to be not very specific about that topic. So if you use that for your home presentation - great. But if you generate BDs and handover them to other people - take care. They will not even know if their BD-player is capable to read the disc.


So, since Vegas offers here a superior solution - why should they also include AVCHD 2.0 what is less superior in terms of compatibility?

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post #81 of 100 Old 03-11-2015, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post
I understood that, but it does not make sense for me. For following reasons:
- Vegas offers you a true MVC encoder. That technology is what is requested by 3D-BDs. So, if you go for 3D-BDs that are really compatible with the standard, then that is a great option.
- the major limitation is that the data rate is limited - but that is due to the fact that this technology is quite expensive in licensing (where Sony has internal advantages)
- I am not sure if AVCHD2.0 is the same format that is used in camaras like the TD10. The format this cameras use is MVC.

So, since Vegas offers here a superior solution - why should they also include AVCHD 2.0 what is less superior in terms of compatibility?
We're talking in circles here. You're misinterpreting what I'm saying as if I were suggesting AVCHD 2.0 over Blu-Ray standards (720p/60, 1080p/24). I'm not suggesting that at all. I am fully aware (as again everyone in this thread is) about the compatibility issues.

This isn't about the 'superiority' of MVC. The camera records MVC. It just can't be edited without substantial compromise (IMO), and it records an MVC format not supported by Blu-Ray standards. I get 720p/60 is the workaround for those that want to stay 60, or go to 1080p/24 if you want to maintain your horizontal resolution at the expense of framerate.

I'm not disputing the MVC encoder in Vegas. I know the Blu-Ray 3D standard (as does everyone in this thread I believe). However, it still does not change the fact that Sony/JVC/Panasonic released a format that cannot be edited/exported in its native format and used in some capacity the way the camera captures video. And these members sit on the Blu-Ray board (and two are controlling members). That's my point, I don't know how much more clear I can be.

AVCHD 2.0 is nothing more than a hybrid MVC format for 1080i/60. The superior solution would have been for the Blu-Ray group to include 1080i/60 s3D. They didn't, I get it and as a result, very few displays will support it. Sony/JVC have a workaround: Sony has a crude piece of software, I won't even call it editing but whatever (PMB) that will output the required format, and push to disc (can't even push back to the camera). JVC has a poor piece of software that will also output the required format, but doesn't burn to disc (you playback via camera or one of the few media players).

Sony is a big company. The range of 1080i/60 cameras isn't just thought up on a whim and pushed out to market. And even for a hybrid standard (AVCHD 2.0) takes considerable time to plan and implement. We're not just talking the TD10, or the 20 or the 30. They also have the DEV-3/5/30/50 cameras, the NX3D1 (which at least does the BD standard 1080p/24 s3D, but also does 1080i/60 s3D) and a whole host of other cameras.

But it still doesn't change my gripe that Sony should have offered users the ability to edit/export in the native 1080i60 s3D format (and AVCHD 2.0 is the hacked disc format that allows native playback, granted on select equipment). And I think it's a legitimate gripe given Sony makes more than a half-dozen cameras that support this format. I mean, I'm asking for one more template on export that doesn't exist, nor can I create. That's it. It's not complicated or unreasonable request.

If Sony didn't make the cameras, then I wouldn't complain. Nothing is going to change, Sony's abandoned 3D in the consumer and even professional market (for integrated 2 lens units - single lens units can still be connected and synched), so it is what it is.

But just to summarize what I said: it wouldn't have been hard at all for Sony to incorporate a template in Vegas Pro to support native 1080i/60 MVC AVCHD 2.0 exporting (to disc or memory card). The option should be there.

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post #82 of 100 Old 03-11-2015, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, you are not even able to maintain the horizontal resolution at the expense of the framerate, since the interlaced format 1080 50i/60i has a reduced horizontal resolution due to interline flicker, compared with a progressive format like 1080 24p. So, if you have to shoot in 1080 50i/60i and will always have a reduced resolution compared with shooting in 1080 24p in the acquisition. The decline in the horizontal resolution can be significant, depending on the movement in the footage. That is why the conversion to 720 50p/60p will not take away a lot of horizontal resoltion in most cases.


I am fully aware that the 1080 50i/60i footage is not compatible with 3D-BDs - sure. But SCS has always rejected to render an output for BDs that is not compatible with BDs - so if the BD-consortia allows only 720 50p/60p and 1080 24p, the MVC encoder in Vegas will only allow this output. Regardless that advanced user know enough to avoid incompatible BDs, the agrument for that was always that they have to protect the less experienced users. Or regardless that you want that.


Unfortunately MVC is a complete different technology, compared to AVCHD. True, both are H.264 - but to come up with an independent and a dependend video stream requests another encoder compared with two full-frame-streams muxed in AVCHD 3D. A lot of NLEs produce such streams - Powerdirector or Pinnacle Studio for example. And a lot of 3D-BD-players accept that too. Fine if you are happy with such discs - I for my part would not like to handover such a disc to a
paying customer. And also from that perspective I am happy to have at least one affordable tool to generate discs that are fully compliant with the 3D-BD-standard.


The PMB is not an NLE, even if it allows crude cuts. It is more a software to allow AVCHD 2.0 stuctures on a BD - but without menus at all. Sure that can be used for such discs - also for example together with an output of a AVCHD 2.0/3D structure of Edius. If somebody likes that it can be done.


Beside that you could render the footage to sbs-full with 2x1920x1080 as 50i - for example using the Mainconcept AVC-encoder. And playback that footage with the stereoscopic player, what would also accept seperate streams for L and R with 1080 50i. Another possibility would be to render to UHD resolution with either top-bottom full or sbs-full - if you have a player that is able to playback that footage. I am not sure, but maybe it could be done with players like the minix-UHD-player, but it will be hard to handover that type of footage to another person I think.


But in the end of the day cameras like the TD10/20/30 or the JVC TD1 have been consumer camcorder - and every company I know requests an extra bonus to offer 1080 24p - the professional versions of the TD10 or JVC TD1 offer that, but are more expensive - and also the Z10K is more expensive. So if you want to produce 3D-BDs based on 1080 24p without conversion, you have to pay more. As simple as that - but true for all of them (Sony, JVC, Panasonic). Beside the situation that there is only one camerea left in the consumer range - the Panasonic Z10000 - that is still available. What a pitty.

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post #83 of 100 Old 03-11-2015, 12:14 PM
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I've stated this before in previous posts, yep the BD format for 3D is totally inadequate for most 3D camcorder content (other than 24p). I also fully agree that when they were rushing 3D camcorders out to the consumer market in 2011, it was grossly irresponsible of Sony and JVC to offer consumers camcorders with primary formats which couldn't be recorded or played back at with anything other than the camcorder as a player. Furthermore, even this isn't possible through HDMI since it won't support playback of 1080 60i MVC at that native resolution and frame-rate. So, my main complaint at this point, is with the stranglehold that HDMI has on consumer display devices. Many of our problems could be solved by just adding a Display Port or DVI port to display devices besides just monitors. This would enable playback of 3D content at native resolution and frame-rates, assuming the use of a supporting player. Forinstance, one of the reasons I will not use a passive HDMI connected display for editing- and use DVI connected dual monitors- is that with DVI, I can use player programs like Power DVD to playback MVC at native resolution and frame-rates. Through HDMI, Power DVD will kick that same content down to 720p. When editing, through Edius, I can even playback Gopro Dual 3D content shot at 1080 60p. Of course, this is the only place I could play this. If they would just add the option of these additional ports on TVs and projectors, 3D would be set free.

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post #84 of 100 Old 03-11-2015, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
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...
AVCHD 2.0 is nothing more than a hybrid MVC format for 1080i/60. The superior solution would have been for the Blu-Ray group to include 1080i/60 s3D. They didn't, I get it and as a result, very few displays will support it. Sony/JVC have a workaround: Sony has a crude piece of software, I won't even call it editing but whatever (PMB) that will output the required format, and push to disc (can't even push back to the camera). JVC has a poor piece of software that will also output the required format, but doesn't burn to disc (you playback via camera or one of the few media players). ...
You make good points, Jet-X, and I think we have a legitimate beef with these companies for leaving us high and dry with a half-baked format that they created and then abandoned mid-stream. Shame on them for that.

To JVC's credit, they include Pixela software that allows you to edit (heads and tails, simple transitions, simple titles) and then export back to the camera in original quality. The Pixela software (Everio MediaBrowser) also lets you burn edited works to Blu-ray disc in BDAV format, which will play on some 3D BD players in 3D, but it's a crap shoot. I have three different Sony 3D players hooked up to three different 3D displays. On one, the discs play back in original quality in full 3D at 60i. On another, the disc plays back in 2D. On another, it plays back in 2D and at reduced resolution (looks like 480 at best). It's a mess.

Here's an iso file that I created entirely in MediaBrowser. Your player and display may like it and play it back, or it may not.

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post #85 of 100 Old 03-11-2015, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
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You make good points, Jet-X, and I think we have a legitimate beef with these companies for leaving us high and dry with a half-baked format that they created and then abandoned mid-stream. Shame on them for that.
Joe, you summed up what I said perfectly. And in far fewer words

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark
To JVC's credit, they include Pixela software that allows you to edit (heads and tails, simple transitions, simple titles) and then export back to the camera in original quality. The Pixela software (Everio MediaBrowser) also lets you burn edited works to Blu-ray disc in BDAV format, which will play on some 3D BD players in 3D, but it's a crap shoot. I have three different Sony 3D players hooked up to three different 3D displays. On one, the discs play back in original quality in full 3D at 60i. On another, the disc plays back in 2D. On another, it plays back in 2D and at reduced resolution (looks like 480 at best). It's a mess.
The JVC software (Pixela) was what I was alluding to above. However, I completely missed the fact that it will also do a BDAV disc , so I stand corrected and thanks for pointing that out Joe. I'm curious if the Pixela software will edit Sony s3D files? I also like that the Pixela software will let you play back edited content on the JVC camera.

I haven't tried frame packed 3D on my Sony PS3 3D monitor, but I'm curious if it works. I'm also curious (haven't seen it mentioned) if there's a correlation between displays that will display 1080i/60 s3D and those that won't (i.e. generally works on active shutter vs. passive displays)?

I'll try the ISO file later tonight when I'm home.

But yes, in summary, we got a half-baked format and were left high and dry. Argh!
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post #86 of 100 Old 03-11-2015, 06:33 PM
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The disc the Pixela software creates (selecting 3D Blu-ray as the export option) contains a single m2ts file in the stream folder. I'm assuming it's full res left/right muxed files (AVCHD 2.0). My Sony BDP-S480 3D Blu-ray player sends it at full resolution to an LG LM7600 passive LCD display (via a Denon 2313 AVR). It looks like the original 60i video that came from the TD1, but with dissolves and simple titles applied to the video clips. The same disc only plays in 2D from a Sony BDP-S570 player to an LG LA9800 OLED passive display (via a Denon X4000). From a Sony BDP-S590 player, the disc looks like garbage on an Epson 5030 active 3D projector (via a Marantz 7008 AVR). It's downrezzed significantly. As I said, it's a real crap shoot as to what you'll get with different combinations of displays, AVRs and Blu-ray 3D players.

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post #87 of 100 Old 03-11-2015, 06:37 PM
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The Pixela software looks at file info that tells it which camera was used for the recording. If it doesn't see the camera it's looking for, it won't edit the file. The same is true for the Pixela utility that comes with the JVC HMZ1 - which exports full res left and right files from the MVC (mp4) file. The utility works with footage shot with the HMZ1, but not the TD1.

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post #88 of 100 Old 03-11-2015, 06:39 PM
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BTW, the JVC MediaBrowser 3D player utility that comes with both the TD1 and the HMZ1 will play the MTS files shot by the Panasonic Z10000. I don't know how that little blessing slipped by the watchdogs.

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post #89 of 100 Old 03-12-2015, 10:25 AM
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Just to add more confusion to the 3D world:

http://www.i-micronews.com/imaging-n...he-future.html

Quote:
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:

8- There are a few technologies inching closer to realization. One is computational imaging and dual cameras, another one is 3D cameras. What is Sony’s position on computational imaging?

Computational imaging shall contribute further value to our sensors and we are highly interested in that sense. Our sensors are using a stacked structure and it makes sense adding features to the logic side to create differentiated values in the sensor. In line with this approach we have a strong interest in image processing technologies and so forth.

We are and also have been interested in supporting the path of Dual cameras and likewise 3D camera to answer our customers’ needs, meaning the demand is coming from customers.
Now, this is a still camera group/interview, but Sony's still cameras have always supported video capture. What the above means, don't fully know. But it's an interesting response from Sony.
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post #90 of 100 Old 03-16-2015, 02:44 AM - Thread Starter
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In the long run, and according to the re-structuring of Sony, that seems to be a consideration. However, in reality we have seen that they have withdrawn the Sony TD10/20/30. Unfortunately.

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