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post #31 of 645 Old 05-07-2014, 04:19 PM
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OK, I've just watched the result of my second try on Vegas. De-interlaced did the trick. Made both a 1080 24p and a 720 50p version. As expected, motion is better in the latter, the price in sharpness paid well worth it (if at all noticeable). At this time I'm having WinRar cutting the .iso in pieces so I can share the result with you guys.

 

After having watched this second try on editing my first footage, I learned a quite a lot:

 

1. In my man cave set-up using a Yamaha AV receiver, an Iconbit media player and an Optoma full HD 3D beamer, I have to add some stills at the beginning of the video because the whole system needs about 25 or so seconds before it produces the 3D image. So, should you take the trouble of downloading my second try, that's the answer to your question why this project starts with a still.

 

2. The up-close range of the TD20 is impressive. To make use of this in 3D, one needs to gradually zoom in. From a distant shot to a close up is too uncomfortable for the eyes to adjust (in my video the close up of the working ants).

 

3. Vegas can enhance the 3D effect. This can be helpful on longshots using small IA. However, it becomes difficult when zoomed out. I tried to solve this with a crossfade, but that doesn't prevent my eyes from having to re-align. What could help is an envelope attribute using key frames and being able to put a start value of horinzontal correction at the first and the desired nil correction at the last so Vegas gradually takes away the 3D correction whilst zooming out. I'll look in to that. Anyways, I believe that in this scenario (the shot with the distant white cows) I'd use the TD10 with SBE anyway.

 

4. My set-up of screens works fine. For some reason, utterly unknown to me, in my first attempt that ultimately did not produce a 3D playable .iso, I had superb 3D on my preview screen without ever having touched any setting. Now I sorta miss the 3D option that fits my set-up. SBS preview comes closest. But does not fully use the potential of my 3D monitor.

 

5. Work flow is critical. No use setting up a project, change the project settings afterwards to 3D and hoping for good results. Do as Don said, and whilst at it, make these settings the default setting.

 

6. The Webinar Sony provided take about an hour to watch. After that one is comfertable enough to get started with Vegas. I am at the virge of throwing Pinnacle Studio 16 (damn, I sponsored those Pinnacle guys a lot the last decade and a half with doing an upgrade every once and a while. Bottomline, I can only use Pinnacle Studio 16 for my 3D content if I install a Blu Ray burner and buy a pile of Blu Ray discs). Thank God, the Pro version of Vegas that has cost almost as much as a decade and a half Pinnacle Studio, includes pretty much the same scale of transitions and effects. Pfew. But, I must admit, Vegas has far more working options. Making crossfades for example is extremely easy in Vegas (put the Icon "Auto Crossfade" on and overlapping clips do this).

 

7. Black clips? Restart computer, open project.

 

8. Rendering is done pretty fast on my humble i5 system. Now that is a relief. My laptop is too old to give it a try (5 years and shows traces of wear and tear). Good news is we plan on visiting San Francisco and I remember a good computer shop there. Luckely for me, laptops are far cheaper in the States than over here, so I'll get myself a new laptop in Frisco and try to do as much as practically possible of the editing in the evenings. I know now from experience an i5 with 8GB and descent video card will suffice.

 

I'll throw the links to the .rar files on DropBox below once WinRar has finished cutting and DropBox uploading.

 

So far, thank you guys! I put pretty much all of my spare time in this 3D thing the last week and a half and don't regret a single minute of it! I don't have the illusion I know what it takes to be completely prepared for my holiday but I do know I am a hell of a lot farther on the road to making good 3D footage than I was a week and a half ago. And the contribution from you guys have reduced a learning/experimenting period of over 6 weeks to a meazly week and a half, and I thank you guys for that!

 

Next will be the edit with the links (they are still uploading), meanwhile it is bedtime down here! Good night!

 

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

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post #32 of 645 Old 05-07-2014, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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You can keyframe almost everything in Vegas, including stereoscopic adjustments. Can't get to the specifics right now, but it's pretty easy.

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post #33 of 645 Old 05-07-2014, 09:55 PM
 
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Bergj: What bit rate are you using to render your blurays?
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post #34 of 645 Old 05-08-2014, 12:22 AM
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Bergj- saw your production. It looked good and I'd say you got Vegas figured out just fine!

Couple criticisms-

The ant hill was the only shot where the 3D didn't work well and my eyes could not adjust. The Flower with bee close up looked fine. You'll have to figure out what you did differently.

The extreme negative parallax on the titles was a bit too much in front of the screen and had some background ghosting on the screen plane. I don't know how that happened unless you had two title clips causing that. While my eyes could handle the extreme depth, my preference is not to exaggerate the forward titles so much but that is just a personal thing. Get rid of the background ghosts and the ending credits should do better.


Do you plan on using a tripod on your trip? I usually carry a tripod with me except in crowded parks, there I carry a monopod and snap it to my belt. They work great to get the camera above the crowds in the parks. For long shots and scenery landscapes having the tripod will give you better steadiness. When using a tripod and panning, be sure to turn off OIS to avoid OIS motion blur.

PS- I viewed the iso file using my HiMedia player and my Vizio 32" monitor.

What render setting template did you use to create the iso file?

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post #35 of 645 Old 05-08-2014, 12:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threed123 View Post

Bergj: What bit rate are you using to render your blurays?

On the big project I'm working on right now, I render 60i 3D video at 10 bit precision from Edius as left/right AVCHD files - 25mbps average (50mbps peak). I import these files into Vegas and render to 1080/24p Blu-ray 3D at the max bit rate (25mbps). Vegas does the de-interlacing. A close inspection shows that the conversion from 60i to 24p looks softer than the original, but overall I think the results look great. It's possible to encode fairly high quality MVC at 25mbps, but it helps to start with the highest bitrate originals. Rendering the left/right files in Edius takes a long time, even with my Core i7 3930, but it's worth it. This is a hobby, and I'm fortunate not to have deadlines. smile.gif

Haven't had a chance to watch your video yet.

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post #36 of 645 Old 05-08-2014, 12:26 AM
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Bergj: What bit rate are you using to render your blurays?

Actually, in Vegas Pro all the *.iso templates are 25 Mbps.

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post #37 of 645 Old 05-08-2014, 12:32 AM
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Joe- Have you compared the Z10k source against the JVC? Here the bit rate of the Z10K is also 25 Mbit but it sports a 3 chip imager. Which is better quality, the single chip JVC at higher bit rate or the Panasonic with lower bit rate and 3 chip imager?

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post #38 of 645 Old 05-08-2014, 01:03 AM - Thread Starter
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You can't argue with the test results, which show the Z10k produces more detailed images. The JVCs also have a tendency to over-saturate colors, which I have to deal with in post sometimes. Still, I love the look, and the extra bits (34mbps) make a difference. I have no complaints with the sharpness of my JVCs. Plus, the smaller size makes them more convenient to use. And the TD1 has great manual and semi-automatic controls. I must have walked a couple of hundred miles with those cameras in the Botanical Garden, and it's never felt fatiguing. Honestly, though, I have a lot more shooting that I need to do with the Panasonic before I can make that call. Right now, I'm concentrating most of my energy on editing and pick-up shots on my Botanical Garden project. That will be with the JVCs.

I just had Vegas crash on me at about 97% of the way through an hour and 10 minute rough cut Blu-ray 3D render. Arghhhh!!! I forgot to designate a separate drive for pre-render files, and it was all going to C:. I just reset it, but I lost about 3 hours. Correct me if I'm wrong, Don, but you reset the render drive under "Properties," right? And this sends the temporary render files for the Blu-ray iso to that drive instead of C:? I've fallen victim to this before in Vegas, and I just read something you posted about it, but I've been rendering smaller segments up until now. This render crashed Vegas, right about the time it should have finished.

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post #39 of 645 Old 05-08-2014, 06:56 AM
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Yes, Joe, in the Properties as well as the final render. If you are rendering to just a wmv file it isn't as important or if you are rendering to a huge C drive with lots of room. I like to say 3 times what you think the final iso file will be just to break even. That was no problem in the days when we were using 1Tb C drives but today with a 256 Gb SSD and only 75Gb of free space it just will crash when you reach the final stages of an iso file render. For speed, divide up source video, temp files, and final render to different SSD. True- small projects don't add up that much. Hour long programs can be a problem.

FYI- on my Z10K and wide angle adapter. I left it on for almost every shoot, then took it off when I needed extra telephoto. Had to get used to the idea it doesn't work full wide due to left side vignetting ( even without the filter step ring) and full telephoto due to focus limits. I haven't contacted Cyclopital on the broken lens shade. The super glue is holding well and not a problem. I'm glad I always carry a small bottle of superglue in my camera bag!

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post #40 of 645 Old 05-08-2014, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Don. After I set a different drive for pre-render files in Properties, the iso burned normally. No problem. Before that, it was exactly as you describe: the 256GB C: drive had about 80GB free as I started the iso render, and it crashed about 97% of the way through. I don't understand why Vegas doesn't exit from that error more gracefully. It just dies. Since I don't do the meaty part of my editing in Vegas, additional juggling of different files appears to be unnecessary. I keep all my source files (video, audio and graphics) on a single SSD, and that hasn't been a problem yet in my Edius workflow. I might try dividing duties down the line, if things bog down too much.

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post #41 of 645 Old 05-08-2014, 03:49 PM
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You can't argue with the test results, which show the Z10k produces more detailed images. The JVCs also have a tendency to over-saturate colors, which I have to deal with in post sometimes. Still, I love the look, and the extra bits (34mbps) make a difference. I have no complaints with the sharpness of my JVCs. Plus, the smaller size makes them more convenient to use. And the TD1 has great manual and semi-automatic controls. I must have walked a couple of hundred miles with those cameras in the Botanical Garden, and it's never felt fatiguing. Honestly, though, I have a lot more shooting that I need to do with the Panasonic before I can make that call. Right now, I'm concentrating most of my energy on editing and pick-up shots on my Botanical Garden project. That will be with the JVCs.

I just had Vegas crash on me at about 97% of the way through an hour and 10 minute rough cut Blu-ray 3D render. Arghhhh!!! I forgot to designate a separate drive for pre-render files, and it was all going to C:. I just reset it, but I lost about 3 hours. Correct me if I'm wrong, Don, but you reset the render drive under "Properties," right? And this sends the temporary render files for the Blu-ray iso to that drive instead of C:? I've fallen victim to this before in Vegas, and I just read something you posted about it, but I've been rendering smaller segments up until now. This render crashed Vegas, right about the time it should have finished.



Joe,
I have 3 TD1s & on mine I don't get any over-saturation. One of them, though, has a bit of a reddish shift which must be dealt with in post. No big deal really. I don't have a z10K so have no point of comparison but the sharpness of the TD1 is pretty damn good for 1080i. Here is a link from a review which measured this:

http://camcorders.reviewed.com/content/jvc-gs-td1-camcorder-review/sharpness-performance
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Joe,
I have 3 TD1s & on mine I don't get any over-saturation. One of them, though, has a bit of a reddish shift which must be dealt with in post. No big deal really. I don't have a z10K so have no point of comparison but the sharpness of the TD1 is pretty damn good for 1080i. Here is a link from a review which measured this:

http://camcorders.reviewed.com/content/jvc-gs-td1-camcorder-review/sharpness-performance

That was a good read, Barry. It wasn't at all surprising, though. Without exception, people who've seen my TD1 footage have had high praise for the video quality. IIRC, our 3D buddy Don Landis said it looked like an expensive broadcast camera when he first saw some test footage. Don't quote me on that, though. I'd have to check the post to be sure exactly what he said (or let Don tell us smile.gif ). Another friend whose opinion I respect greatly said something similar. At 34mbps, the TD1 60i mp4 footage is so sharp that I'm comfortable doing 5-7% crop moves (digital zooms, pans and tilts) virtually any time I need to. That's how well it holds up. In addition, the TD1 creates an image right out of the box that can look absolutely stunning in terms of color and contrast. I'll try to post some clips soon that I think demonstrate just how good it can look. That said, the over-saturation issue is something I've seen a lot in my Botanical Garden footage. I've gotten footage of red tulips that's so overblown that I simply can't use the shots without filtering them in Edius. I've also had to set up blue and yellow filters to tame some clips. Edius makes that pretty easy. Without help, though, reds in some clips look radioactive. I have plenty of examples. Much of it can probably be attributed to the single chip design.

As for the JVC TD1 vs the Panasonic Z10k questions, I also have no complaints about the image quality of the Panasonic in terms of sharpness, even though its bitrate is lower. I think the 3-chip design negates somewhat the higher bitrate. The Panasonic also has a significant edge in wide angle shooting, and the Cyclopital3D WA adapters are multi-lens designs that out-perform their JVC counterparts. I've really missed that at times while shooting at the Garden. Still, it's usually not much of a contest when I think about picking up a camera and going out to shoot. For family and spur of the moment stuff, it's always the JVC. And that's not just because it's smaller and lighter. I just plain like the look of the video.

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post #43 of 645 Old 05-08-2014, 09:52 PM
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That was a good read, Barry. It wasn't at all surprising, though. Without exception, people who've seen my TD1 footage have had high praise for the video quality. IIRC, our 3D buddy Don Landis said it looked like an expensive broadcast camera when he first saw some test footage. Don't quote me on that, though. I'd have to check the post to be sure exactly what he said (or let Don tell us smile.gif ). Another friend whose opinion I respect greatly said something similar. At 34mbps, the TD1 60i mp4 footage is so sharp that I'm comfortable doing 5-7% crop moves (digital zooms, pans and tilts) virtually any time I need to. That's how well it holds up. In addition, the TD1 creates an image right out of the box that can look absolutely stunning in terms of color and contrast. I'll try to post some clips soon that I think demonstrate just how good it can look. That said, the over-saturation issue is something I've seen a lot in my Botanical Garden footage. I've gotten footage of red tulips that's so overblown that I simply can't use the shots without filtering them in Edius. I've also had to set up blue and yellow filters to tame some clips. Edius makes that pretty easy. Without help, though, reds in some clips look radioactive. I have plenty of examples. Much of it can probably be attributed to the single chip design.

As for the JVC TD1 vs the Panasonic Z10k questions, I also have no complaints about the image quality of the Panasonic in terms of sharpness, even though its bitrate is lower. I think the 3-chip design negates somewhat the higher bitrate. The Panasonic also has a significant edge in wide angle shooting, and the Cyclopital3D WA adapters are multi-lens designs that out-perform their JVC counterparts. I've really missed that at times while shooting at the Garden. Still, it's usually not much of a contest when I think about picking up a camera and going out to shoot. For family and spur of the moment stuff, it's always the JVC. And that's not just because it's smaller and lighter. I just plain like the look of the video.


Actually Joe,
I really can't say for sure that mine wouldn't over-saturate in shooting the kind of subject matter you are doing. Those kind of highly saturated colors can be a whole different kind of ball game. It looks like the roses in my yard will be blooming soon so maybe I'll try shooting some of the red ones with the TD1 to see if the video blooms as much as the rose does. I'll let you know. I also have a 3 chip 2d Panasonic camcorder which shoots at 60p and has extensive manual controls. I think I'll see what that one does with the same subjects in auto mode.

I like my SBE- what little I have used it- but after hearing about the one you have for the Z10K I must profess a bit of jealousy! I just bought a video tripod this week and plan on going back to Yosemite within the next month to try to put together some good smooth shots of the falls and mountains. I think I know enough about shooting with the SBE to use it more effectively now. Really quite pleased with it, but clearly there's a learning curve.
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Joe- you don't need to divide up the video source files as that would really create difficult file management during editing if the goal was to improve seek and read speed. Better to just go with faster drives for your source media. But, preventing the crash by making sure your temp files and final render has enough space is where a different drive comes in handy. Like I said, this is most critical for generating an iso file. Here you create the MP4 for the video, then the audio files, then from those you create the AVCHD or M2TS Blu Ray file structure, and lastly from that file structure you write the iso file. When all that is complete the intermediate files are deleted. Thus, my reason for making sure you have 3 times the projected iso file size in the disk space available.

BTW- I usually keep my backup veg files on the C drive because these are relatively small, and after loading the project into the timeline, I don't think that file is accessed, however, the Vegas program file is accessed continuously throughout the rendering. Virus scanner also steals CPU cycles throughout the rendering. That's why I pull the ethernet cable and shut down the virus file scanner while rendering big projects. It can knock off a whole hour on a 15 hour rendering.

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post #45 of 645 Old 05-09-2014, 01:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually Joe,
I really can't say for sure that mine wouldn't over-saturate in shooting the kind of subject matter you are doing. Those kind of highly saturated colors can be a whole different kind of ball game. It looks like the roses in my yard will be blooming soon so maybe I'll try shooting some of the red ones with the TD1 to see if the video blooms as much as the rose does. I'll let you know. I also have a 3 chip 2d Panasonic camcorder which shoots at 60p and has extensive manual controls. I think I'll see what that one does with the same subjects in auto mode.

I like my SBE- what little I have used it- but after hearing about the one you have for the Z10K I must profess a bit of jealousy! I just bought a video tripod this week and plan on going back to Yosemite within the next month to try to put together some good smooth shots of the falls and mountains. I think I know enough about shooting with the SBE to use it more effectively now. Really quite pleased with it, but clearly there's a learning curve.

Yes, the SBE definitely involves a learning curve. The Botanical Garden is a great place to use one, but even there it's often too "confined" a space for it. There are several shots in my Cyclopital3D video that push it. I'd frame many of them differently if I were shooting the video today. On the other side of the coin, there are many long shots that will end up in my Garden video that the SBE would have brought to life. They're so flat that I'd much prefer to use something like the 3D-Bee 2D to 3D conversion device. (It's a consumer device that doesn't license you to use it for such things.) It does wonders for landscapes and aerial views. In direct comparisons of native TD1 video (left eye extracted and played through my Samsung plasma), long shots converted by the 3D-Bee often looked much better than native 3D - as long as the native TD1 shots involved subjects over 30 feet or so away. Get closer and the native 3D shots win every time. Use a SBE and the native 3D shots win every time. I have a handful of such flat 3D long shots where I'd kill to have access to really good conversion technology. I've tried using PowerDirector, but I can't get the results I'm looking for. Perhaps you could give me some pointers on that, or take a look at a few of my shots to see what you can do for them in PD. My experiments crashed and burned. smile.gif

One last note for anyone considering the SBE: you have to use manual convergence control to get good results with the SBE on the JVC. Auto convergence doesn't work properly with it. Manual allows you to dial in convergence perfectly. Some of my very favorite shots are those done with the SBE.

When you shoot red roses with the TD1, I think you'll see what I mean. I checked to see if I was shooting in an extended color mode, but it wasn't active. You should be able to control it in post with the PowerDirector Suite. Edius has tools that let me fine tune color control, so I can tame it there.

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post #46 of 645 Old 05-09-2014, 02:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Joe- you don't need to divide up the video source files as that would really create difficult file management during editing if the goal was to improve seek and read speed. Better to just go with faster drives for your source media. But, preventing the crash by making sure your temp files and final render has enough space is where a different drive comes in handy. Like I said, this is most critical for generating an iso file. Here you create the MP4 for the video, then the audio files, then from those you create the AVCHD or M2TS Blu Ray file structure, and lastly from that file structure you write the iso file. When all that is complete the intermediate files are deleted. Thus, my reason for making sure you have 3 times the projected iso file size in the disk space available.

BTW- I usually keep my backup veg files on the C drive because these are relatively small, and after loading the project into the timeline, I don't think that file is accessed, however, the Vegas program file is accessed continuously throughout the rendering. Virus scanner also steals CPU cycles throughout the rendering. That's why I pull the ethernet cable and shut down the virus file scanner while rendering big projects. It can knock off a whole hour on a 15 hour rendering.

Thanks, Don. I forgot about those other steps. Vegas crashed on me again today and I had to re-render the video once more. It worked when I rebooted and started fresh, but I'll take the other precautions next time. My SSDs are pretty fast. I wouldn't try to break up the video files between them. That would make project management on a long form project too hairy. I keep all the source files for a project on one SSD and do a lot of preview renders. I still have nightmares about Vegas crashes in version 11. It was so unstable that I had to save after virtually every edit, even with a powerful six-core i7 and fast SSDs. Edius is stable enough that I get a little sloppy sometimes and don't save for 10-15 minutes. smile.gif I can count on one hand the number of crashes I've had the last few months, and I've yet to lose any significant amount of work.

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post #47 of 645 Old 05-09-2014, 09:00 AM
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I'm trying to limit my timelines to one hour or there about for large projects. My Panama Canal Cruise that lasted for 15 days will therefore span a two part video or 2 hours total. Part one is done and up on YT now. I'm into Part 2 and the first rough cut is about 2/5 done and 40 minutes for a render review. The render crashed 6 times before completion. So far here's the causes:
First 4 crashes were caused by a phantom clip that I did not have in the timeline but I had deleted from the work drive. This simple little jpg (reference) was still present in the Project Media tab but absent from the Explorer! Is this a Vegas v13 Bug that was not detected during the beta period?
The next two crashes had nothing to do with Vegas but rather my graphics card just stopped working and my screens blacked out for a second, then returned. I get a popup message informing me my GPU crashed and recovered. However, since My Vegas was using the GPU for rendering, Vegas also stopped and froze up.

I'm on number 7 rendering now of the 40 minute timeline with 6 video tracks and 16 audio tracks.

Some other observations since recent changes-

My CPU runs at 96% on all 8 cores. Vegas v12 only ran at 70%

My CPU runs at 195-206 °F Before making the change to a PCIe storage which has double the read rate as my OCZ Vertex 4 SSD, the CPU temperature ran 180°F

Timelines like this typically took 7 hours to render 1 hour timeline. Now with the faster storage for media, the time is 5 hours average. Considering the cooling has remained the same while the feed of media frames is avaiable at double the rate, I believe the CPU and GPU are able to work harder and they get hotter. I've never experienced GPU crash before adding the PCIe storage. Maybe the slower SSD work drive in the past allowed for some cooling between CPU cycles frame loading.

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post #48 of 645 Old 05-09-2014, 09:44 AM
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Hi Don, thanks for the tips. I myself found the ant hill akward as well. I tried to do a horizontal correction in Vegas, the result of that correction I had no chance to see for myself since I was far too eager to post my first results. Should I change render settings? So far, I have only set project settings, did my editing and from there clicked, tools, burn disc.

Meanwhile, I also figured out how to animate a 3D correction, I applied this at the cows shot (result of this also not in my DropBox version.

On our 110" screen, my son and I actually enjoyed the hovering titles (the main titles), I'll push the white subtitles a bit more backwards.

On my way to work, I picked up my TD10. $200,- extra custom and taxes fee.... Did not reckon those would apply on a refurbished cam. The people at the parcel office told me I can try to reclaim some of that tax money.

Good news is, I will shortly be able to shoot comparison shots between the TD10 and TD20. Should the result of these shots indicate a significant difference, I'll post the results on DropBox. Should my subtle adjusment of the ant hill do any good, I'll post that as well. I left it in this project to illustrate the close-up limit (I took the flower from a longer distance with more zoom, I had my TD20 pretty close to the little bugs). It would surprise me if the horizontal correction here would improve it. Clips like this wil not make it in my vacation project (departure in 13 day's, hurra!) obviously.

Thanks for the feedback! (Did you like Ilse DeLange her songs? I know there is this royalty thing, but I guess Ilse won't mind if here songs are carried across the ocean, if you like her music, check her out on iTunes!)
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post #49 of 645 Old 05-09-2014, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I'm trying to limit my timelines to one hour or there about for large projects. My Panama Canal Cruise that lasted for 15 days will therefore span a two part video or 2 hours total. Part one is done and up on YT now. I'm into Part 2 and the first rough cut is about 2/5 done and 40 minutes for a render review. The render crashed 6 times before completion. So far here's the causes:
First 4 crashes were caused by a phantom clip that I did not have in the timeline but I had deleted from the work drive. This simple little jpg (reference) was still present in the Project Media tab but absent from the Explorer! Is this a Vegas v13 Bug that was not detected during the beta period?
The next two crashes had nothing to do with Vegas but rather my graphics card just stopped working and my screens blacked out for a second, then returned. I get a popup message informing me my GPU crashed and recovered. However, since My Vegas was using the GPU for rendering, Vegas also stopped and froze up.

I'm on number 7 rendering now of the 40 minute timeline with 6 video tracks and 16 audio tracks.

Some other observations since recent changes-

My CPU runs at 96% on all 8 cores. Vegas v12 only ran at 70%

My CPU runs at 195-206 °F Before making the change to a PCIe storage which has double the read rate as my OCZ Vertex 4 SSD, the CPU temperature ran 180°F

Timelines like this typically took 7 hours to render 1 hour timeline. Now with the faster storage for media, the time is 5 hours average. Considering the cooling has remained the same while the feed of media frames is avaiable at double the rate, I believe the CPU and GPU are able to work harder and they get hotter. I've never experienced GPU crash before adding the PCIe storage. Maybe the slower SSD work drive in the past allowed for some cooling between CPU cycles frame loading.

In the last three days, I've rendered an hour and 5 minute video four times in Vegas and it's crashed twice (over 3 hours per render, with the crash happening right at the end). Once it probably failed because of the C: drive being used for temp pre-render files. The second time, I don't know why. The two times it finished successfully were after a fresh reboot. The files I used were generated in Edius, so Vegas wasn't doing any of the heavy lifting (stereoscopic adjustment, color correction, filters, etc.). Basically, what Vegas did was to convert from 60i to 24p, reduce the bitrate and create the files for the Blu-ray 3D iso. I'm going to set up some short test renders, then let Edius and Vegas do the same 60i to 24p conversions. I'll see how they compare. If Edius can handle interlace to progressive conversion as well as Vegas, I'll be asking even less of Vegas on those big final renders. I've gotten used to Edius rendering for hours on end, with my most complex timelines, without a single crash. It has a well-deserved reputation for stability, and these unpredictable Vegas crashes make me appreciate it that much more.

What monitoring software are you using to keep track of temps and drive access times? I think you mentioned it before, but I can't recall.

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I've read that bluray iso files can be chained into one iso. Anyone tried this? This would result in the compilation of several shorter renders and maybe less crashes. I'm amazed at the crashing talked about here, and all the crashes I've had with all the video packages I've had over the years. Makes one wonder if any of these packages are ready for primetime compilations of anything over about 5 minutes of content.
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post #51 of 645 Old 05-09-2014, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Edius has no trouble whatsoever with long renders, even to Blu-ray. It's known for its great previews and extraordinary stability. The one thing it can't do is create a standard Blu-ray 3D iso file, probably because of licensing restrictions. PowerDirector can create Blu-ray 3D discs (with 3D menus), but the bitrate is low enough that I don't like the hit in quality, at least at 1080/24p. 720/60p holds up much better at the lower bitrate. However, since my Botanical Garden project has really good detail, my only choice is to use Vegas or stratospherically priced authoring software. I'm not going to invest in such high-end software for projects at this level.

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post #52 of 645 Old 05-09-2014, 06:16 PM
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OK, I've just watched the result of my second try on Vegas. De-interlaced did the trick. Made both a 1080 24p and a 720 50p version. As expected, motion is better in the latter, the price in sharpness paid well worth it (if at all noticeable). At this time I'm having WinRar cutting the .iso in pieces so I can share the result with you guys.

After having watched this second try on editing my first footage, I learned a quite a lot:

1. In my man cave set-up using a Yamaha AV receiver, an Iconbit media player and an Optoma full HD 3D beamer, I have to add some stills at the beginning of the video because the whole system needs about 25 or so seconds before it produces the 3D image. So, should you take the trouble of downloading my second try, that's the answer to your question why this project starts with a still.

2. The up-close range of the TD20 is impressive. To make use of this in 3D, one needs to gradually zoom in. From a distant shot to a close up is too uncomfortable for the eyes to adjust (in my video the close up of the working ants).

3. Vegas can enhance the 3D effect. This can be helpful on longshots using small IA. However, it becomes difficult when zoomed out. I tried to solve this with a crossfade, but that doesn't prevent my eyes from having to re-align. What could help is an envelope attribute using key frames and being able to put a start value of horinzontal correction at the first and the desired nil correction at the last so Vegas gradually takes away the 3D correction whilst zooming out. I'll look in to that. Anyways, I believe that in this scenario (the shot with the distant white cows) I'd use the TD10 with SBE anyway.

4. My set-up of screens works fine. For some reason, utterly unknown to me, in my first attempt that ultimately did not produce a 3D playable .iso, I had superb 3D on my preview screen without ever having touched any setting. Now I sorta miss the 3D option that fits my set-up. SBS preview comes closest. But does not fully use the potential of my 3D monitor.

5. Work flow is critical. No use setting up a project, change the project settings afterwards to 3D and hoping for good results. Do as Don said, and whilst at it, make these settings the default setting.

6. The Webinar Sony provided take about an hour to watch. After that one is comfertable enough to get started with Vegas. I am at the virge of throwing Pinnacle Studio 16 (damn, I sponsored those Pinnacle guys a lot the last decade and a half with doing an upgrade every once and a while. Bottomline, I can only use Pinnacle Studio 16 for my 3D content if I install a Blu Ray burner and buy a pile of Blu Ray discs). Thank God, the Pro version of Vegas that has cost almost as much as a decade and a half Pinnacle Studio, includes pretty much the same scale of transitions and effects. Pfew. But, I must admit, Vegas has far more working options. Making crossfades for example is extremely easy in Vegas (put the Icon "Auto Crossfade" on and overlapping clips do this).

7. Black clips? Restart computer, open project.

8. Rendering is done pretty fast on my humble i5 system. Now that is a relief. My laptop is too old to give it a try (5 years and shows traces of wear and tear). Good news is we plan on visiting San Francisco and I remember a good computer shop there. Luckely for me, laptops are far cheaper in the States than over here, so I'll get myself a new laptop in Frisco and try to do as much as practically possible of the editing in the evenings. I know now from experience an i5 with 8GB and descent video card will suffice.

I'll throw the links to the .rar files on DropBox below once WinRar has finished cutting and DropBox uploading.

So far, thank you guys! I put pretty much all of my spare time in this 3D thing the last week and a half and don't regret a single minute of it! I don't have the illusion I know what it takes to be completely prepared for my holiday but I do know I am a hell of a lot farther on the road to making good 3D footage than I was a week and a half ago. And the contribution from you guys have reduced a learning/experimenting period of over 6 weeks to a meazly week and a half, and I thank you guys for that!

Next will be the edit with the links (they are still uploading), meanwhile it is bedtime down here! Good night!

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6

Hi just watched your Video good job! Cool tunes as well. I agree with Don about the ants. The rest looked really good. The only bit where I spotted judder was the pan in your village outside your house. I've been playing with my flycam tonight - that would have looked great where your chasing your dog lol ;0)
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post #53 of 645 Old 05-10-2014, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threed123 View Post

I've read that bluray iso files can be chained into one iso. Anyone tried this? This would result in the compilation of several shorter renders and maybe less crashes. I'm amazed at the crashing talked about here, and all the crashes I've had with all the video packages I've had over the years. Makes one wonder if any of these packages are ready for primetime compilations of anything over about 5 minutes of content.

I would be interested in this software.

What I experience here is new software dates have more crashes than after several bug fixes releases. Plus, everytime I make a hardware change, I go through a time where I experience more crashing. The last version 12 of Vegas could work for days and even weeks on a complex project and never crash. Then I add the new much faster storage card and then Vegas v13 and I start the game all over again. Five minute long projects are fine but when I get to 30 or 40 minutes, it seems to have more issues. I just completed a 40 minute timeline with no crashing and I made no changes to the settings, yet this same timeline failed to complete at between 20 and 90% on 7 prior attempts. I have no idea why it worked fine this last time. But, prior to this last complete render, I renterd the timeline in 3 shorter parts with no problems.

I also did a benchmark on V13 and the GPU now offers only a tiny 6% improvement over GPU off. Either my expensive graphics card is failing, or Vegas 13 has some problems with GPU rendering. I need further testing for more data points to verify this.

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I was trying to render in Pinnacle 17 Ultimate, which allows a bluray bit rate up to 40mbps, but it crashes most of the time right at the end when it's trying to finish the export. Anyway, I was reading on their forum that Pinnacle has a folder issue when rewriting to a directory folder that already has a bluray file in it--it must be a clean folder, and it also crashes when using the Nvidia GPUs/hardware assist rendering. So I'm wondering if Vegas might have the same problems. I'm guessing that, fundamentally, all these packages have similar underlying code in their codecs--based on my experience as a programmer of years ago.
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post #55 of 645 Old 05-11-2014, 12:24 PM
 
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Don, et al:

This is the software to combine multiple m2ts streams into one ISO. You would have to create an image folder with a BDMW and combine them using this program. It is also apparently 3D compliant and can connect multiple streams into an AVCHD file.

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/tsMuxeR

I have not tried this yet, though.
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post #56 of 645 Old 05-11-2014, 12:50 PM
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I'd be glad to learn from someone if that works. Till then I'll stick to my freshly acquired routine. But it does look promising! I'll get it as soon as I read it works (3D).

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post #57 of 645 Old 05-11-2014, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I would be interested in this software.

What I experience here is new software dates have more crashes than after several bug fixes releases. Plus, everytime I make a hardware change, I go through a time where I experience more crashing. The last version 12 of Vegas could work for days and even weeks on a complex project and never crash. Then I add the new much faster storage card and then Vegas v13 and I start the game all over again. Five minute long projects are fine but when I get to 30 or 40 minutes, it seems to have more issues. I just completed a 40 minute timeline with no crashing and I made no changes to the settings, yet this same timeline failed to complete at between 20 and 90% on 7 prior attempts. I have no idea why it worked fine this last time. But, prior to this last complete render, I renterd the timeline in 3 shorter parts with no problems.

I also did a benchmark on V13 and the GPU now offers only a tiny 6% improvement over GPU off. Either my expensive graphics card is failing, or Vegas 13 has some problems with GPU rendering. I need further testing for more data points to verify this.

I've run into these kinds of issues time and again. When I get something that's stable, I'm very reluctant to make changes. I have some sort of glitch in my Zotac graphics card (nVidia 660) that prevents it from rendering parts of the GUI. It's not Edius or Vegas. Sometimes even desktop icons don't refresh as they should. Despite that, I don't want to risk getting a new GPU until I finish the current project. It's a minor nuisance with an easy workaround. I've seen "minor" changes in a PC wreak havoc. Better to put up with this glitch than deal with a more serious and harder to diagnose problem.

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post #58 of 645 Old 05-12-2014, 01:27 AM
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It's looking Vegas Pro v13 has a problem with my AMD FirePro Graphics card. I had repeated crashing with the GPU turned on. On normal editing, the v13 crashes would happen after about 3-4 hours of editing, prompting a reboot of Vegas but not windows. When rendering, it would render faster but not by much. Basically, my tests were that what was taking 5 hours with the GPU on took 7 hours with it off. But I could not get much more than a 5 hour render using the GPU before it would crash and just freeze up requiring a complete reboot.. I still have v12 on the machine and should run a couple tests over night to be sure that still has no problems. Shutting off the GPU does take longer on short renders, but it is the old turtle and hair story on long rendering projects. Currently running no GPU and I have my final video that will take about 11 hours to render. Best news is that since not using the GPU the system has not crashed yet. It just chugs along and completes these overnight.

I wonder if the issue is heat. My moog system monitor does report a significant CPU and GPU temperature rise since adding both the PCIe card and Vegas v13. My computer is also due for it's annual Spring dusting to blow out the pollen build up. Pollen season was late this year and I decided to wait until after this current big project is complete before air dusting the computer. I know that pollen buildup inside thw FirePro may be contributing to the cooling problems. The computer has 4 large fans plus whatever is inside the FirePro. It is not quiet at all.

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post #59 of 645 Old 05-12-2014, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threed123 View Post

Don, et al:

This is the software to combine multiple m2ts streams into one ISO. You would have to create an image folder with a BDMW and combine them using this program. It is also apparently 3D compliant and can connect multiple streams into an AVCHD file.

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/tsMuxeR

I have not tried this yet, though.

I misunderstood on this. I thought this software could take several small iso files and combine them into one bigger iso file. I already have the software that can take a BD 3D file structure and mux an iso file. I use this ( DVDFAB) when I create my BluRay 3D with menus in Power Director and then want an iso of same to put on my media drive for the Home theater playback.

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Don Landis HT System: Projector Sony VPL VW665ES Players: Samsung UBD K8500 OPPO BD93 Sony BDP S6200 All Regions Player Denon AVR S940, 7.1 JBL Professional series and Klipsch PS3, XBOX360, Dish VIP722K; 3D; Apple TV 4K. Edit Suite:Adobe Premiere, Edius7.53, Vegas Pro v13, Power Director16, i9-7980XE/GTX1080Ti, LG 3D TV DM2752
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post #60 of 645 Old 05-12-2014, 07:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I misunderstood on this. I thought this software could take several small iso files and combine them into one bigger iso file. I already have the software that can take a BD 3D file structure and mux an iso file. I use this ( DVDFAB) when I create my BluRay 3D with menus in Power Director and then want an iso of same to put on my media drive for the Home theater playback.

I did find software that would take iso files and "chain them," but found out it was just ripping the isos into temp folders, grabbing the stream and restructuring to a new iso. Problem was that you could not determine how it was going to chain them, whereas the TSmuxer allows you to determine that (if it works...).

That said, have you used DVDFAB to chain multiple streams or just add a menu to an existing stream? I will try chaining with the TXmuxer and report back.
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