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post #61 of 645 Old 05-12-2014, 07:46 AM
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What I misunderstood is I got the idea that if I did 2 or 3 iso files of segments of my large project and found them ready, I could designate them for "chaining" with your software. That would save me having to then go back and re-render the total project to one big iso file. Like iso1 + iso2 +iso3 = isoTotal

What I use DVD Fab for is to overcome a limitation in Power Director that does not output 8.iso image files like I can do in Vegas Pro under burn disk ( image only) meaning you never actually burn a disk.

The way it works is you tell Power Director to burn a BD-RW and then put that BD-RW in the drive and have DVDFAB do a clone to to a Hard drive folder rather than to a second BD-R. Now you have an iso image file of your program with 3D menus and DTS sound. That image file plays just like a commercial 3D BluRay in my OPPO player accessing those image files on a hard drive. It's easier and lower cost than dealing with those BluRay disks. Rather than limiting to a 25Gb disk, I have 4TB at a time with a long list of titles in alphabetical order. Just scroll down the list and select a title to play.

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post #62 of 645 Old 05-12-2014, 07:57 AM
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Learned something about Vegas Pro last night and rendering large projects. This may benefit others who attempt large projects and suffer unexplained render crashes at the end.

I thought I had this thing figured out with a work around to just shut off the GPU, however, it seems there is one more Gotcha in the mix I discovered last night.

When the video is done rendering, the next step is to render the audio to an uncompressed temp file in wav format. Didn't know this but WAV has a 4Gb file size limit and if your audio will exceed that it will crash the long render to iso. When I tested this with just a wav format render, I got a warning that the project exceeds 4GB maximum. With iso burn disk there isn't any warning. Another possible bug in the code in Vegas. It should issue these warnings before wasting 10 hours on a render. So what's the fix? In the preferences menu there is a check box that is by default not checked to render wav as w64, a Sony proprietary format is the wav exceeds 4GB. I checked the box and now the render proceeded generating a w64 file for the 5.1 audio. I will test this to see if it also works rendering the iso file tonight.

I don't think too many are going to see this limitation unless you approach project sizes >90 minutes or there about. But it's something to recognize if you do ever try a long timeline with 5.1 audio.

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post #63 of 645 Old 05-12-2014, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for posting that, Don. I may not be the problem I ran into with my Vegas crashes, but it's a good tip for the final render.

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post #64 of 645 Old 05-13-2014, 08:56 AM
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Finally got through the long render to completion. Need to review it now. Hope I made no errors. ???

Currently rendering a SBS half with sound for the YT upload. That should take a good long time! The file is expected to be 14 Gb.



My new PCIe storage has 240Gb available and all the media files for this project took, 233 Gb. Just made it! I was getting worried it wouldn't all fit. I have one more big project to do and it has even more media files. Thinking I need to rewrite the script to split it into 2 or 3 projects.

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post #65 of 645 Old 05-16-2014, 08:14 AM
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I've gotten footage of red tulips that's so overblown that I simply can't use the shots without filtering them in Edius. I've also had to set up blue and yellow filters to tame some clips.

As for the JVC TD1 vs the Panasonic Z10k questions, I also have no complaints about the image quality of the Panasonic in terms of sharpness, even though its bitrate is lower. I think the 3-chip design negates somewhat the higher bitrate. The Panasonic also has a significant edge in wide angle shooting, and the Cyclopital3D WA adapters are multi-lens designs that out-perform their JVC counterparts. I've really missed that at times while shooting at the Garden. Still, it's usually not much of a contest when I think about picking up a camera and going out to shoot. For family and spur of the moment stuff, it's always the JVC. And that's not just because it's smaller and lighter. I just plain like the look of the video.

Would lowering the chroma color help on that TD1 issue? I shot a whole day with my 3DA1 and the color was set to default which was flat all across, after adjusting the chroma level it really livened things up. Then I shot some closeups of my red rose bushes out front and noticed they were over saturated at that level so I may need to back it down in some locations.

Bit rate does make a big difference, but the 3MOS sensors are nice too. I have to say, I'm a little disappointed with the Z10k's 3D, the PQ and sharpness are a tad muddy, but that's comparing it to the 3DA1, which is about 42 mbps combined and it also has 3MOS. Judging the Z10k for what it is, it's not bad. I wish the 3DA1 had some of the features of the Z10k, it's more of a bare bones 3D acquisition rig. The z10k is a nice all-in-one and it's size and boasts some great features. But if I'm shooting just 3D, I'm going with the 3DA1 and a tripod. If I'm not taking a tripod, I'd probably take the Z10k. The 3DA1 is not very hand-held friendly. No image stabilization and it's a bit lens heavy and awkward in your grip, usually requiring two hands to hold it and operate.

I've yet to find that one 3D camera that does it all. After reading everyone's experiences here on these 3D camcorders there isn't that one that really stands out as the best, which is why you need to have more than one. It just depends on the situation which camera you go to.

One disappoint I've noticed, there does appear to be some vignetting in the upper corners with the wide angle installed. Zunow proudly claims their lenses don't cause vignetting, yeah right. The kit is really nice as it fixes the close up problem on that camera from about 6 feet min. to about 18 inches not to mention it really widens the range on it to the point that I've just left the kit on. It appears to just happen randomly in how the light hits it. I need to measure it and find some filters and see if that helps. I contacted the company and they wanted more info which I gave them and I'm waiting to hear back.

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post #66 of 645 Old 05-16-2014, 10:01 AM
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Unfortunately, the TD1 doesn't have chroma adjustment options.

They now are available from Amazon vendors for $500-$600 range. A tremendous value, in my opinion.
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post #67 of 645 Old 05-16-2014, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry C View Post

Unfortunately, the TD1 doesn't have chroma adjustment options.

They now are available from Amazon vendors for $500-$600 range. A tremendous value, in my opinion.

Ah, gotcha, not much else to do then. Yeah at that price it's good value, and the size.

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post #68 of 645 Old 05-16-2014, 11:20 AM
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I have 3 of them. All & all, a pretty damn good camcorder. I think Joe Clark would agree.
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post #69 of 645 Old 05-16-2014, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, sometimes lowering the chroma level 5% or so can help with the JVCs. That's easy in most NLEs. I don't like to do much more than that because it starts to rob the image of its pop. It's usually only red that I'm concerned with, so I lower it and leave the rest alone.

I love my JVCs - a TD1 and an HMZ1. If the HMZ1s were still on sale for $850, I'd buy another. The two things I prefer about the Panasonic Z10K are its wider angle lens and the 3-chip design, which is probably responsible in part for the red color issue.

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post #70 of 645 Old 05-16-2014, 08:19 PM
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The HMZ1 has f 1.2 lenses, that's pretty fast for a video camcorder. These were priced higher than the Z10k when I was buying mine so I passed on it. No 3MOS sensors? It does time lapse in 3D, the Z10k doesn't, only in 2D. But you can always post time lapse.

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post #71 of 645 Old 05-17-2014, 12:36 AM
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If you get a Macbeth Color chip chart, you can shoot that with proper lighting and white balance, then adjust it using the vectorscope and histogram in Vegas views and make your adjustments by adding the effect as a preset to your timeline on every project. Now the red push on the camera can be adjusted globally. My TD10's have a lack of yellow and weak green but I use a preset to adjust it to balance against the Z10K which is a good match to the Macbeth chart.


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post #72 of 645 Old 05-17-2014, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post

The HMZ1 has f 1.2 lenses, that's pretty fast for a video camcorder. These were priced higher than the Z10k when I was buying mine so I passed on it. No 3MOS sensors? It does time lapse in 3D, the Z10k doesn't, only in 2D. But you can always post time lapse.

In case you weren't aware, the ONLY differences between the HMZ1U and the TD1 is that the HMZ1 will let you shoot at either 60i or 24p. Also the HMZ1 allows for an external mic and the TD1 doesn't. The TD1 is 60i only in mp4 mode. The 34 mbps bit rate is the same. The lens is exactly the same. Neither camera is 3 chip, as they use exactly the same processor.
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post #73 of 645 Old 05-17-2014, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually, there are a few other differences, Barry. The HMZ1 has a zebra feature. Also, the TD1 has an external mic input, but it doesn't come with the HMZ1's XLR to mini adapter/shotgun mic accessory. I haven't used it on the TD1, but I assume the HMZ1 accessory would work with the TD1, too. The biggest difference, of course, is that the TD1 won't shoot at 24p. However, the TD1 has several very helpful manual and semi-automatic features. Not having 3 imaging chips isn't as detrimental to image quality as it used to be. Single chip designs have come a long way in the last few years. Still, all other things being equal, a good 3-chip camera still out-performs most single chip cameras being made today.

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post #74 of 645 Old 05-17-2014, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Actually, there are a few other differences, Barry. The HMZ1 has a zebra feature. Also, the TD1 has an external mic input, but it doesn't come with the HMZ1's XLR to mini adapter/shotgun mic accessory. I haven't used it on the TD1, but I assume the HMZ1 accessory would work with the TD1, too. The biggest difference, of course, is that the TD1 won't shoot at 24p. However, the TD1 has several very helpful manual and semi-automatic features. Not having 3 imaging chips isn't as detrimental to image quality as it used to be. Single chip designs have come a long way in the last few years. Still, all other things being equal, a good 3-chip camera still out-performs most single chip cameras being made today.

Thanks Joe,
Forgot about the zebra!
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post #75 of 645 Old 05-17-2014, 06:40 PM
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And you guys said the JVC's don't import into Vegas? Why exactly is that? Is it a special MVC codec or just mp4?

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post #76 of 645 Old 05-17-2014, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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The JVC mp4 files aren't recognized by Vegas unless they're first split into left/right AVCHD streams (with a free utility that comes with the HMZ1, or a paid utility for the TD1). When the files are imported into Vegas, they're automatically paired as stereoscopic. Even AVCHD 2.0 files (a late software/firmware upgrade for the TD1) aren't recognized by Vegas. Both JVCs CAN be set to record native side by side 3D video files in standard AVCHD format (albeit at a lower bitrate). Vegas has no problems with those. For a "quick and dirty" project, using SbS JVC files in Vegas is great, since there's no MVC decoding to bother with. It simply scales the 960x1080 files to 1920x1080, and it makes for smooth, fast editing. The quality is pretty good (but not a match for 34mbps mp4, of course).

The JVC mp4s are fairly standard fare MVC, as far as I can tell - h.264 video and stereo AAC audio, with a left eye view and dependent right eye view. I don't know how much extra coding would be involved for Vegas to support the JVC files, but Sony decided not to do it. PowerDirector supports them, as does Edius. That's the reason I ended up an Edius user. IMO, it's as powerful as Vegas (stronger in some ways, weaker in others). It supports more video formats, has been FAR more stable for me, and the preview is smoother. I can drop my JVC files directly into Edius and edit more cleanly than I can in Vegas, even if I split the files first and Vegas doesn't have to decode MVC. Where Edius fails is not being able to burn to Blu-ray 3D. Also, Vegas makes audio editing much easier. So, I use both. The high quality and ease of use of my JVCs makes Edius a small price to pay for native format editing.

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post #77 of 645 Old 05-19-2014, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Actually, there are a few other differences, Barry. The HMZ1 has a zebra feature. Also, the TD1 has an external mic input, but it doesn't come with the HMZ1's XLR to mini adapter/shotgun mic accessory. I haven't used it on the TD1, but I assume the HMZ1 accessory would work with the TD1, too. The biggest difference, of course, is that the TD1 won't shoot at 24p. However, the TD1 has several very helpful manual and semi-automatic features. Not having 3 imaging chips isn't as detrimental to image quality as it used to be. Single chip designs have come a long way in the last few years. Still, all other things being equal, a good 3-chip camera still out-performs most single chip cameras being made today.

It has zebra feature, but it cannot be used in 3D view (as far as I remember).
Also note that 24p mode is not so sharp as 60i mode (which was a bummer for me, so I am exclusively using 60i mode).
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post #78 of 645 Old 05-19-2014, 07:12 AM
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A quick question on Vegas Pro. Is it possible when you're working on your project in stereoscopic mode, to change the project back to 2D? I'm wanting to render a 3D project but also a 2D having all of the edits and post work in place without having to do 2 separate projects. Is it just a matter of changing the project timeline back to 2D and then mute the right frames before doing the final encode?

Thanks!

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post #79 of 645 Old 05-19-2014, 09:26 AM
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On Vegas movie studio you can just render to 2D in the options or switch off 3D in the project properties. I take it Vegas Pro will be the same ;0)
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post #80 of 645 Old 05-19-2014, 10:19 AM
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What I usually do is select left only and then render to get a 2D version. It's pretty easy.

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post #81 of 645 Old 05-19-2014, 04:02 PM
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Ok, left only sounds like that will work then.

Not sure when I'm getting Vegas Pro, can't seem to get the funds for it right now with everything else going on, but I've only got around 4 or 5 hours of 3D footage so far so I may just wait on it. There's a few other items I need to acquire that are more important right now for filming anyway.

I just got a pair of UV filters ordered for my 3DA1 and a flush mount tripod mount for it and a 3/8" mount for the Z10k, now I won't have to take them off all the time. The 3/8" hole is a little closer to dead center on the Z10k so it should balance the weight better.

My first project is on The Old West at Cowtown Museum. I've finished up getting shots of all of the structures and interiors, now just need to film some of the people dressed up which is a little more difficult getting good shot selection. This weekend should be pretty interesting as they have "Steam Punk" day. It's a pretty big event, lots of people dressed up. I missed Civil War Day a few weeks back so I'll have to go next year and shoot that, so this project might not be completed to around this time next year. There's so much there it's really hard to get everything.

So far, filming it all with the 3DA1, in 3D of course and in 1080 24p for Blu ray.

My next project will actually just be across the street at the Botanical gardens, that one shouldn't take as long and should be a good test project to get on Blu ray quick just to see how the finished 3D looks.

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post #82 of 645 Old 05-20-2014, 06:43 AM
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This is what I made to put my quick connect at center gravity on my Z10K. This is the old one. I made a new one that is longer so I can move it further toward the lens because the Cyclopital accessories add even more front heavy Center of Gravity to the camera. The new one slides beyond the bump extension on the bottom of the lens.

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post #83 of 645 Old 05-20-2014, 07:52 AM
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I'm currently having to use the 1/4" to 3/8" plug adapter that came with the 3DA1 to use my current hex plate but won't have to for much longer. Can't wait till those get in, should make things easier. I don't plan on getting any of the accessories for the Z10k, just using that one as is.

I wound't mind getting the base extender for the 3DA1, a bit pricey at 2k, but 4x's the stereo effect, might be nice. Actually, I'm currently drawing up plans to build a beam splitter rig to handle distance and macro issues with these all in one side by side cameras. The pro ones are a little pricey to buy (around 6k for a mobile one). I'm hoping to have it built by end of year and then next year get another z10k to use as the second camera, just using them both in 2D. To keep the cost down, since I already have one Z10k, I'll just get a second for a matched pair. At some point I can replace them with Red Pro's (lol!, yeah right!) The second camera and the 50/50 mirror are going to be the biggest costs, I can get all the other parts for cheap.

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post #84 of 645 Old 05-20-2014, 11:01 AM
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Talk to Wolfgang. he has a Roberts Beam splitter rig. He can brief you on how much is involved in using it. My experience was only in a one on one class with 3D Technica Rig using Red cameras. It was close to $100K for the entire system. side by side is so much simpler, lower cost, and portable, plus it has more range and versatility.

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post #85 of 645 Old 05-20-2014, 11:06 AM
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The range is a little more on beam splitters since the lenses don't get in the way for up close, plus they can be spaced out for distance 3D, depending on how large of a mirror is used. I'm going with a 10"x14" mirror so I should get around 0-6 inch spacing at least.. Beam splitter won't be as portable or as easy though.

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post #86 of 645 Old 05-20-2014, 02:53 PM
 
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I found a problem in Movie Studio 13, that might ripple in Vegas. I used the trim marker to identify a piece of video to prerender. When I was done I ignored them and went about adding more still and video images. I then did a test render of the whole project to a bluray image, left the computer and came back several hours later. It stopped somewhere in process, but did not identify the error, just said there was an error. I was puzzled looked over the track and realized I still had the markers over the piece of video. When I closed them, the render worked perfectly--just sayin'.
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post #87 of 645 Old 05-21-2014, 12:45 AM
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What Markers? Those you put up with the M key? That should not affect the rendering and I have never had a problem using them.


Tom- It depends on how much work you will be dealing with extreme closeups in 3D. Another option is to use a zoom in and shoot from a distance. On the other side of this is if you plan to shoot wide angle lenses to capture large landscapes in the distance, 6" IA is hardly wide enough. My IA for Monument Valley scenery was using 28" IA with 10 and 12mm lenses. The wider the lens, the more IA separation you will need. I have a 1 meter bench but didn't have it along. Wish I did because the calculator was giving me a 60" spread for 10mm wide angle.

I suggest you do some homework before spending time and money. Imagine your scene in your projects. Then get one of the 3D stereo calculator aps for your ipad and enter the settings for your scene and then figure the lens capture area. You may be shocked at how wide the IA has to be to capture the full Z depth at those distances. You can find these aps in the apple store on line and they are free. The one I use is RittaiCalc3D

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post #88 of 645 Old 05-21-2014, 01:58 AM
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Tommorow is the big day: off on our vacation! Yesterday I picked up my brand new HDR-TD10 (it was new in box with those ad labels still on it). I want to do video editing, but funds are getting low after purchasing Vegas Pro Edit, one HDR-TD20, one HDR-TD10 and a Cyclopital SBE.... So I looked around and found a refurbished Sony Vaio fitted with an i5 processor that can boost to 2.6 GHz, 8 GB internal memory, 1 TB Hybrid drive and a 2GB nVidia GeForce GT 735M video card. Pretty much the same configuration as my desktop that works like a charm with the same software (even doing a preview in 3D on my second screen). However.... the picture jutters awfully in the preview. So, I took a look at Options and found it was trying to do the job using the onboard Windows Graphics... The nVidia GeForce seems to work, it did not give an error in the settings screen. Anyone here knows how I can get Vegas Pro to work with the nVidia?? I tried appointing the nVidia adapter to the program in the nVidia setings app, but I still can't select it in the preferences of the preview device..

 

Edit: Sony gives the impression the Vaio SVF15N1S2ES should do the trick, the pre-installed Movie Studio Platinum 12.0. In the tech specs of Studio Vegas my system configuration should do the trick... My problem is that I feel like learning to walk all over again because that Vaio thing is fitted with Windows 8 (I know, we have to leave the XP era behind us... that's why I have Windows 7 64 bit on my desktop...)

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post #89 of 645 Old 05-21-2014, 07:17 AM
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Unless you need mobile editing, I'd stick with a desktop machine, the processors, gpu, memory everything is more robust on that vs. a laptop. I have windows 8 installed on Bootcamp. I was never a windows person, so I'm having to learn a great deal on it now. The whole tablet interface is a strange concept on a desktop machine without a touch panel which I could do without. The other thing that bugs me is how long it takes to shut it down when it needs to update. Updating takes longer than installing OS 10.9 on the same machine!

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post #90 of 645 Old 05-21-2014, 08:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

What Markers? Those you put up with the M key? That should not affect the rendering and I have never had a problem using them.

Forgive my ignorance. I meant a selected video that I prerendered and left the selection in place for the final render. It appeared to throw an error.
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