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post #31 of 68 Old 06-01-2019, 09:29 AM
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tom- I have an imac that my wife uses. I felt it was a classy design fitting for our kitchen as PC's are too industrial looking, back when we bought it. They have improved but I still prefer the design of the iMAC. Only one cable which is the power cord. My edit room is built for function and efficient video production editing. I have two work station centers, one is hardly used anymore because it is tape based and the other has two work station class PC's. What I like best about a PC is you can modify and change things as needed.

I think the future of the Mac and iMac days are numbered at Apple. There focus today is for the mobile average user, so the priority 1. iphone and Apple watch; ipads; Macbook's. They can do some pretty amazing tasks such as basic VR editing of clips, but not yet full workstation editing. Most of my family who are serious Apple users have ditched their desktop iMacs and have Macbooks or ipads. Most just use the iphone for everything. In my case, I'm actually doing more production video shooting with the iphone Xs Max. The reliability and convenience allows me to do more shooting. I love 3D but that does not mean I have to do everything in 3D. My last trip I did I never even carried the Z10K or went on an excursion with the PANASONIC 3D1. Instead I carried the Vuze XR and put it in 3D VR180 mode when I knew I wanted 3D to use whith the Vuze 3D VR360 content. Today I question whether I should take my Z10K along because it is so bulky compared to these 360 cameras.

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post #32 of 68 Old 06-01-2019, 12:16 PM
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Over the past 7 or 8 years Apple has been moving to closed system, non user repairable or upgradable products. It's fine for some things, phones light weight laptops, maybe even the iMac but the lack of a pro desktop product since 2013 says it all. They've left the pro users behind. Even if they do release a new Mac Pro here next year or 2 it will likely be too expensive, 5K plus.

Now days I always have at least one 3D camera along since my phone is 3D but not every project is 3D for me. My 3D1 is basically retired now since my phone has better specs all around.

Where VR goes will be interesting. Possibly Netflix. There's more user control there. Watched an episode of Black Mirror last week, it was a choose your own adventure interactive feature with multiple dead ends and endings. Of course just 2D but this opens the potential for VR entertainment viewing.

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post #33 of 68 Old 06-01-2019, 01:22 PM
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Where VR goes will be interesting. Possibly Netflix. There's more user control there. Watched an episode of Black Mirror last week, it was a choose your own adventure interactive feature with multiple dead ends and endings. Of course just 2D but this opens the potential for VR entertainment viewing.
Haven't seen that on Netflix but there is an app for the VR HMD's that has a number of interactive videos like that. Most I have seen are for guys, like how to score a date with a super model, etc. There are places in the video where it pauses and you are asked to select a multiple choice. Depending on your choice you get to the next step or you are shunned. Another is you are invited to a party and you pick out someone to spend the evening with. Another is a survival camping trip and the choices you make determine whether you die in the woods lost or find your way back to civilization. Of course most of the games on Play Station and XBOX are like that.

Anyway, I'll look for Black Mirror next time I'm scanning through Netflix. Thanks.

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post #34 of 68 Old 06-01-2019, 03:05 PM
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It does a device compatibility test, has to be a compatible device to work and play the episode. There's some interesting episodes on Black Mirror, some of these I've already thought about or read about at one time or another but we're starting to see them in shows like this now. Black Mirror, it's sort of the dark side of technology type fiction, some pretty cool episodes though. VR is heavily featured in some of them, not with use but as a plot device and of course very advanced tech based on where we're at now so fiction really some of them are pretty far out there.

Overall though I like the series, series 5 is releasing in June, but I just watched everything so far this last week or 2. Bandersnatch is the interactive one, it took us about 2 hours or so to get through it because of the dead ends, finally got an ending. I may watch it again, I found a walk thru guide that shows each possible choice.

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post #35 of 68 Old 06-02-2019, 10:33 AM
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Tom- I checked out Black Mirror and realized that I had seen it before, the one interactive movie. Anyway I checked it out on my Oculus Quest and GO and neither was able to do the interactive. That surprised me. I see the only thing I have in the HT that will work is the Play Station or XBOX.

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post #36 of 68 Old 06-03-2019, 04:25 PM
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Well, I was off a little bit but over 5K as I expected. New Mac Pro will cost 6K starting price. Running 28 cores and 1.5TB of on-board memory with max options. Supposed to release this fall. Plus a 6K 32" screen that will cost 5K. For the price point the display just isn't worth it for that much more resolution stuffed into only 32" screen. And 6K for a Pro machine, Apple has finally lost touch of reality. They didn't sell many of the 2013 Mac Pro's, part of it was the design but part of it was the cost. They sold a lot more Pro desktops back in the 2000's because their prices were reasonable when compared to PC. Now they've gone off the deep end.

I'll probably just build a PC.

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post #37 of 68 Old 06-03-2019, 09:04 PM
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tom- I saw that today. I was wondering if you would consider it.

I know the Mac OS loves RAM as a way to run things faster but I wonder if the MAC OS also moves computer intensive calculations off the CPU and onto the GPU where the core count is several magnitudes more powerful.

When I configured my new computer I decided the optimum Ram count was optimized at 64GB for doing several timelines of 5.7K video channels. I was right as it seems with 4 timelines in adobe Premiere Pro my system renders peaking out at only 38-50GB as the GPU takes the brunt of the load with h264 rendering.

I'm using an i9-7980 XE with 64GB highest speed ram available. GPU is GTX1080 Ti all liquid cooling. That was expensive enough! Built by Velocity Micro. The base machine with one m.2 500GB card on the Motherboard for the C drive was $6700. Then I added two more m.2 high speed Samsung 970 cards for video work storage, 3- 4TB hard drives and a 1TB SSD drive, media card reader and fast Blu-Ray burner. That added another $2000.

Disappointed discovery- My GPU does not support hardware rendering of h265. So I have to use software rendering on the CPU. So while rendering a 5.7K timeline of a 1 hour video takes only 30 minutes, rendering to h265 will take 26 hours. But the image quality is much richer and the file size is reduced from 19GB to 5.8GB. I do that as You Tube now loves h265.

Edit- a little research and the GTX1080 TI should do hardware encoding of h265 so I need to do more research on this. I must have something set wrong.

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post #38 of 68 Old 06-03-2019, 09:16 PM
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BTW- my GTX1080 Ti is running 2 1080x1920 27" monitors, one being a passive 3D LG. Plus an Oculus Rift that tracks 360 degree video and plays the 5.7K 30 fps timeline in full resolution with no frame dropping in adobe Premiere Pro. When I have more than two timelines including titles with transition effects the playback needs to be reduced to 4K for 30 fps.

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post #39 of 68 Old 06-04-2019, 07:59 AM
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I was checking processors out yesterday, Intel i9 9980 18 core for 2K price or AMD Ryzen 2990 32 core. AMD appears to be the winner for now on speed/price point. And the 6K Mac Pro is just the 8 core base machine. I would say their 28 core will be 12k plus. They've priced themselves out of the market once again.

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post #40 of 68 Old 06-04-2019, 08:05 AM
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Yeah, I don't even both with h.265. It is way too much for my machine. Generally, h.265 adds 4 times the render time or more so I don't bother. I have fiber now so what used to take 2 to 3 days to upload 4k to YT now only takes 45 minutes. And deep storage is cheap enough.

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post #41 of 68 Old 06-05-2019, 04:44 AM
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The new 9980 vs my 7980 XE is the same except the overclocking rates 0.1Ghz higher. Not that much. I haven't considered the AMD processors because when I built my machine the MB's compatiuble offered many less features making the combination a lower quality offer. That may have changed this year. Look into whether you can install m.2 storage for C drive and a second card on the MB for direct memory access, vs the bus transfer.

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post #42 of 68 Old 06-05-2019, 09:18 AM
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Yeah, I've been reading about AMD vs Intel. Intel's been the leader for longer but with Ryzen AMD has been a game changer and it's a more back and forth battle. Right now AMD has more cores but who knows in 6 months or a year or next week.

I did some custom builds online with 32 core, 64gb memory, 1tb m.2 drive with option for a second and 2 addition bus drives, one gpu with space for 2. I'm not looking to buy right now but just comparing what Apple offers and what you can get if it's custom PC built.

So for 6k Apple offers 8 core 3.5ghz. I think their desktop is pretty advanced, it's all fan cooled, not liquid. Apple hasn't done liquid cooling since the Power Mac G5 days which I still have one that runs and no liquid ever spill out of it. It also has support for 2 gpu's and 8 additional pcie slots. The processors are Xeon which are server grade but I don't know if that makes a big difference any more compared to Intel and AMD.

Mac Pro has numerous Thunderbolt connections, not sure on PC. It's supported with USB-C connection but it depends on PC. I've yet to buy any Thunderbolt devices, my old Mac tower doesn't support it.

I think it really depends on how much their 24/28 core option will run but if it's over 10k then it's going to cost too much if your goal is the fastest processor on the market. The custom PC builds I'm seeing you can get setup in the 6500-7500 range for a 32 core AMD or latest i9. Space for dual gpu there was another case that offered 4 gpu space but more money. You can probably build a custom PC with Apple's base specs for half the price 3-4k range.

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post #43 of 68 Old 06-05-2019, 10:17 PM
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tom- I need to do another current build on paper after a year with my current machine. Just to see the new costs and speed improvements. I'll also take a look at the latest AMD benchmarks for video rendering. I have not seen any real improvement on the CPU nor the GPU card. But what I need to do is figure out why my GPU is not allowing rendering h265 encoding. It's supposed to have encoder/decoder for h265 HEVC. The one hour 5.7K video takes around 26 hours on a 36CPU. A similar project on an 8 core computer takes 5 days of rendering. The GTX 1080Ti also is capable of 8K 3D so it should be plenty adequate. The advantage of the new RTX series is that it does ray tracing which is primarily an advantage for playing certain games but for my use has no advantage. If I were authoring games, or 3D animation vectors rather than rendering bit mapped video, then the RTX card would be the way to go. I got my start in video doing 3D studio many years ago. I was on the Yost Group beta team. I did mostly 3D animation crime scene reenactments for trial lawyers. Here, ray tracing was important.

From my experience a 500GB C drive is more than adequate for all my media editing packages, as well as documents and some business software. I do not store library files such as graphics, sound effects and music libraries on my fast C drive. Those are better archived on a slower hard drive and when selected and needed for a project, I transfer them to my video work storage on a Samsung 970 m.2 500GB drive. This is a way to reduce cost and speed things up. I have 2 500GB m.2 project work storage cards. At the time of the build 2 500GB 970's were less expensive than a 1TB. As prices come down I can easily upgrade. Besides, my big projects typically run about 200GB each so there is plenty of storage for 4 ongoing large projects at a time. Then when complete, I just transfer the entire project folder to a hard drive that plugs into a Thermaltake outboard socket.

It's been over 10 years since I did a project on a Macbook Pro with Final Cut, but I recall trying to archive a project like that and the Apple OS maintained many large files on the main hard drive that when deleted or moved away, prevented me from simply recovering. We could not get back into the project to make changes. I consulted with Apple locally with two of their FCP experts and they told me what I wanted to do was not possible. A couple months later I sold the entire package for $5000 and got all my money back. Plus I made a little on the project for my client who insisted the project be done on FCP. He could not load the project files on his Mac either. Later he switched to Vegas Pro which was the best video editing at the time. He used Boot Camp to run Vegas Pro too.

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post #44 of 68 Old 06-06-2019, 07:17 AM
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So it's not letting you select gpu rendering? Keep in mind it would only be able to render either with CPU or GPU as fast as it can read/write to the storage location(s) so you may already be hitting the max speed. What's the speed on your m.2? I take it you're in the 1.5gb-3.5gb range. Yes, I do the same thing, I have 2 SSD's for now, I keep non task-critical stuff on cheep, deep storage drives but always running out of space, hard to keep up.

I found some more info on the Mac Pro, so the 28 core that will probably add 7500 to the base price so yeah it will be 12k plus starting for the top model and that's before any added memory, storage, GPU options. Maxed out it would be around 50k. But it can hold 1.5tb of memory, 4 gpu with 128gb. It's a beast, for those that can afford it. I want a fast PC but I can't start out at 6k for a base machine. Not sure when I'll upgrade but it's probably going to be a PC build.

I'll probably stick with Mac though for laptop use, I like the Mac Mini too, makes a nice media machine and the prices on those are still competitive. They are charging 5K for a 6K resolution screen, the stand is not included which will cost 999.00 or you will have to spend 200 on a vesa adaptor to use your own stand. The price point for the monitor is just absurd and I can already tell it's too small for that many pixels. I wish my 4K monitor was 30 or 32". A 6K display would need to be 36-40". I use my monitor without scaling on so the text is pretty small. But with scaling off that sort of defeats the purpose of that many pixels.

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post #45 of 68 Old 06-06-2019, 04:02 PM
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3500MB/s read, 2300MB/s write for the C drive and two video work storage drives. The C drive and one storage drive has direct access to the CPU. The second 970 storage is on the expansion slot with an M.2 card.

My one SSD drive is a Crucial Read is 560MB/s and write is 510MB/s


I just did an online build similar to my system at Velocity Micro and the price is higher by about $500 since last year but it includes an upgraded GPU to the RTX version. Comes in at $7309 now. I had to look up the invoice and it was $6700. If I were to lower the price with a compromise, it would probably be 32GB or ram as I rarely need more than that. Paging out to a 970 C drive would be that much of a hit I don't think. If you tell them to not populate the memory spots for 32GB it can be upgraded later on easily. Adding the additional SSD, hard drives and 2 more 970 sticks will significantly increase the price tag to about $8500 now. But those upgrades can be done later. Regardless, I think this build will be more powerful than the Mac Pro. Adding a 6K monitor is unnecessary. Spend the money on an Oculus Rift S. I do just fine with two 2K monitors for the desktop work. I don't even have a desire to add a 4K monitor for the desktop displays. Don't waste money on 128GB either. 64GB is optimum for what we do. When I get close to 50GB it's that I may have adobe Premiere rendering h265, Magix rendering an animation, photoshop loaded, windows Paint, Google Chrome and the a couple of other things running as well.
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post #46 of 68 Old 06-06-2019, 04:16 PM
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So it's not letting you select gpu rendering?

Not in adobe Premiere Pro with h265 encoding. But the GPU is accessed for h264. The same video timeline in h264 will complete in 20 minutes with the GPU. In 4 hrs 30 minutes with the CPU. about 16 hours with my older i7-950 machine CPU. I'm sure there is a way or something I'm not doing right. I will be researching this with tech support soon. The GPU specs out with h264 and h265 encode/ decode up to 8K video so I believe the hardware is capable, just the the rendering is not accessing it.

Here's a picture of the 950 machine:
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post #47 of 68 Old 06-06-2019, 05:55 PM
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Read this, possible solution: https://www.videoproc.com/troublesho...port-nvenc.htm

One thing to consider: hardware (GPU) rendering is not as reliable as software (CPU). Faster render vs quality. CPU will provide better quality but at slower speed.

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post #48 of 68 Old 06-06-2019, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Read this, possible solution: https://www.videoproc.com/troublesho...port-nvenc.htm

One thing to consider: hardware (GPU) rendering is not as reliable as software (CPU). Faster render vs quality. CPU will provide better quality but at slower speed.
Thanks for the link but that appears to be a solution for an older version of aPP, ie CC2018. I'm on CC2019. Maybe soon aPP will push out another update that fixes the problem of no GTX1080Ti HEVC encoding. not long ago h264 did not work either but the latest update fixed that. adobe calls it the Mercury engine and it was grayed out so you couldn't select it for export rendering. Now it is selectible. and while you can select it for h264 now, when trying to output h265, a popup box appears stating "h265HEVC export is unavailable, software encoding will be used. OK"

Still searching but I suspect Adobe will update with a fix before we find a good plugin that isn't so iffy. That's one thing I really like about Adobe is they have frequent updates between major upgrades annually.

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post #49 of 68 Old 06-06-2019, 09:31 PM
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Yeah, it's likely on Adobe side but could be Nvidia driver as well.

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post #50 of 68 Old 06-06-2019, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
3I do just fine with two 2K monitors for the desktop work. I don't even have a desire to add a 4K monitor for the desktop displays.
I wanted to respond to this but forgot.

Yes, 2K is fine. I do like my 4K display but I have to be about 2' or closer to really notice the resolution. Wish it were a little bigger so I could notice it in the 2.5'-3.5' range. I've wanted to pick up another one, but I don't have the space currently, need to do some rearranging. If we're talking in the 28-32" range of monitor's I don't see any need to go beyond UHD resolution. 5K or 6K, unless it doesn't cost any more, I wouldn't bother.

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post #51 of 68 Old 06-07-2019, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Yeah, it's likely on Adobe side but could be Nvidia driver as well.
Nvidia claims it is supported so I doubt it's them. Adobe Premiere Pro has the popup notice so I'm sure it's them. It was the same notice earlier in the year for all GPU rendering including h264 and that was fixed I believe in March. Funny, it worked in CC2018 but got broken in CC2019 until the update.


Note- saw an ad that Samsung is going to offer 8K monitors soon.

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post #52 of 68 Old 06-07-2019, 06:23 PM
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tom- this afternoon I tested voukoder, the 3rd party encoder in adobe Premier. It wasn't too difficult to install and showed up in my plugins. So I selected it and the a new encoding list popped up but what I saw immediately was the software h265 encoder was replaced with CUDA GPU. That was a good sign. Then I saw there was a whole list of settings that were pretty difficult to understand so I left them all in default mode except I had to select the one for HEVC which was designated x265, not h265. I also had to select the color bit depth as BT709. It also has selections for BT2020 and HDR. I will experiment with those later.

I used my Bonaire test file I recently posted on YT. That file took about 20 hours to render with the CPU and created a 5.5GB file in h265. This Voukoder took 90 minutes with the CUDA GPU rendering. That is a significant improvement. The file size was a bit smaller too at 3.2GB. I checked the properties on each and discovered the bit rate was 40MB/s on the CPU adobe rendering while the Voukoder was only 23MB/s. Visually both look the same to my eyes so maybe I'll have to see it on a larger screen to see the difference. Also, I'll need to dig into those voukoder settings to see where the nit rate adjustments are.

Regardless, first impressions on voukoder for faster h265 on my system is a winner! Thanks for the lead, tom.


OK I found where I can set the variable bit rate in the settings. It is labeled Vbit and Vbit Max. The setting is in Kb/sec. It's rendering now but setting the h265 to 60Mb/s as I did in the CPU test render is taking just a little longer, about 2 hours now. Still this is quite the time saver. The quality of the render looks as good as before in the Oculus Rift.

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post #53 of 68 Old 06-08-2019, 02:32 PM
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Cool, what you could do is use your gpu to render your rough draft and see if everything looks good and use the cpu for your final render since it should produce the best results but if you find the gpu render good enough, probably just use that then. Yeah, that's a MAJOR time saver. 2 hrs. vs. 20 hrs. They'll likely update here at some point. As you no doubt already know, compatibility with hardware/software has always been problematic.

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post #54 of 68 Old 06-08-2019, 11:26 PM
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Yes but I really don't need to do test renders with this computer as it is fast enough to play my timelines at full resolution in real time. So if I did my job in the timeline run through, the render should be fine. I want to play with the BT2020 10 bit color space and HDR that this encoder offers next. Not sure I will see the difference with my cameras, however. I actually didn't see much difference between 40MB/s and 23 MB/s. Looked the same in my highest resolution HMD, the Oculus Quest. The Quest has a finer pixel array than the Rift which is direct off the GPU so I can view the timeline with the Rift.

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post #55 of 68 Old 06-10-2019, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
So it's not letting you select gpu rendering?

Not in adobe Premiere Pro with h265 encoding. But the GPU is accessed for h264. The same video timeline in h264 will complete in 20 minutes with the GPU. In 4 hrs 30 minutes with the CPU. about 16 hours with my older i7-950 machine CPU. I'm sure there is a way or something I'm not doing right. I will be researching this with tech support soon. The GPU specs out with h264 and h265 encode/ decode up to 8K video so I believe the hardware is capable, just the the rendering is not accessing it.

Here's a picture of the 950 machine:
I am way out of my league here, and haven't done any encoding myself. Just bringing up for decoding H265 I found I need to have the right codec's installed, and it seemed to be a bit inconsistent to me. I was getting choppy H265 playback on a couple of my PCs and could see in Task Manager that the GPU wasn't being used to decode. On one PC as I recall I needed to uninstall HEVC and reinstall it. I also needed to use either the KLite or LAV filters to get it to use the GPU for decoding. I am not even sure if this is related to being able to encode. If it isn't GPU encoding using H265 maybe you would want to try playing an H265 video, go into Task Manager, then the Performance tab and see if GPU is being used to decode.
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post #56 of 68 Old 06-10-2019, 09:16 AM
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Ron- Decoding has never been a problem for me. The h265 decoders have been free for CPU and most modern graphics cards have the decoder built in for playback. Even YT now has h265 as their standard and you use that for playing back YT content, except for some Flash content. Here you now have to install a flash player for YT. I think that change was last year sometime. I have the Flash plugin installed in Chrome and once in a while I need to select it to play a YT video. But this is software CPU decoding. To use Hardware graphics card decoding, your card has to support it. I have an older AMD card that does 3D video 1080P very well but only H264. My new computer has the GTX1080 Ti and it's h265 decoder and encoder is built in but to access encoding you have to have software that can access it. In adobe Premiere Pro, it's called a Mercury Cuda engine. With that selected decoding is activated allowing camera clips higher than 4K or h265 to be played from the GPU. While the GPU has the encoder for h265, Premiere doesn't activate it so it will default to the CPU even with the Mercury CUDA engine selected. So I had to install a 3rd party plugin to get Premiere Pro to render my video using the GPU.

This is not a new problem. Last summer, in order to edit 360 VR I had to install several plugins from a company, Mettle to be able to edit 3D 360VR. A month later Adobe bought the 360VR technology from Mettle and added it to their software changing the name to "Immersion" plugin collections of effects and transitions. For 2019 adobe fixed all the bugs in the Mettle plugins to and now it is a perfect addition.

For your decoder problems make sure you do the updates for your GPU and chip set. Decoding should not be a problem as the decoders for h265 have been free but not always included on the older cards. Encoding has been a paid update, either by the software or hardware company. The encoding is not guaranteed so be sure to check the specs on your GPU.

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post #57 of 68 Old 06-14-2019, 01:07 PM
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Hey Don, I can view the EVO files on my phone with the included glasses.

Is there some simpler way to view these on an Oculus Rift? I thought there would be some PC software or something with this to create the files. I know you use Adobe, is this pretty much the only want to be able to create videos or even pictures that can be seen on the Rift?

Edit: I found your post #27 which talks about the Studio software. I couldn't find this searching the EVO site, or mention of it. Clicking on your link just takes me to the EVO store to purchase the product. I copy/pasted your link and it took me to the Studio download. I will give this a try to see if it creates the files I need to view on Rift. Thanks.

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post #58 of 68 Old 06-14-2019, 01:33 PM
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What player app have you installed on your Rift? There are several but Skybox seems to be my favorite for viewing 360 and 180 VR files from your computer storage drive. You'll need to open the settings and select the format.

Once you combine the twin insv files in the studio you should be able to view them.

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post #59 of 68 Old 06-14-2019, 02:51 PM
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It was the combining of the insv files that I needed. The Evo Studio software you pointed me to, allows me to do that, thanks.

It creates an MP4 file. I had skybox installed earlier, but for some reason the MP4 file created doesn't show up when I look for it with Skybox. An MKV file in the same folder shows up.

I tried Virtual Desktop. I guess we need to allow Sterescopic in the settings for it?

But the video is really choppy, fps are 20 or so. This is with a 2060 GTX. Performance monitor shows nothing is being decoded by the GPU, and Virtual Desktop is taking up 74% of CPU and CPU is constantly pegged at 100%. In this case I am trying it with a Samsung Odyssey+, i.e. WMR. I will need to try it with with one of my 1070 Rift PCs.
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post #60 of 68 Old 06-14-2019, 08:40 PM
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Not sure why your Skybox couldn't see the MP4 file. I will look into that later.

As for your computer not being fast enough, a couple things you can do in Studio is when you have the VR180 3D insv files loaded, and proper VR180 LR selected. ( if you shot the video camera upside down you may need to use RL) Next you export to a file you have a choice to lower the resolution and the bit rate. I would start with a lower bit rate first and test your playback. Save your insv files and if you upgrade to a faster computer you can later render to higher bit rate quality. Same goes for resolution.

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