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post #1 of 27 Old 07-14-2018, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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please recommend a 3D camcorder

Greetings everybody

Is there a 3D camcorder on the market that

has a 2.5 to 3.2 interaxial
captures in 2K
captures in 4K
has a 1.85-1 / 16x9 aspect ratio
accepts genlocked / interchangeable spherical lenses
is matched to a 3D edit and finishing software

and that's just the beginning of my questions.

I'm gearing up to shoot my films in 3-D and would appreciate some input from those who toil in the field.

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 27 Old 07-15-2018, 07:01 AM
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Who is your target audience and what sort of "films" are you planning to do?

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post #3 of 27 Old 07-15-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard--W View Post
Greetings everybody

Is there a 3D camcorder on the market that

has a 2.5 to 3.2 interaxial
captures in 2K
captures in 4K
has a 1.85-1 / 16x9 aspect ratio
accepts genlocked / interchangeable spherical lenses
is matched to a 3D edit and finishing software

and that's just the beginning of my questions.
I'm gearing up to shoot my films in 3-D and would appreciate some input from those who toil in the field.

Thanks in advance.
There are currently no 3D camcorders on the market. There were several models manufactured between 2010-2013 from various companies like Sony, JVC and Panasonic but are no longer sold. You will have to pick them up used. All of them had fixed stereo base and non removable lenses. There were 3rd party attachments produced by Cyclopital3d for awhile but you would have to inquire what item you're looking for. They no longer make some of the items on their site. They have base extenders to widen the range of 3D effect.

All of the 3D camcorders shoot in 1.78 16x9 and are HD. No 4K 3D camcorders have been made yet, other than some 180 VR 3D stuff.

If you want to take a look at some of the models that were made there is a page on BH that has a list of most of them with some information on them.

Take a look here at BHphoto and here.

Some of these models will be hard to find now as they've been out of production for awhile, have to check around.

If you're looking for professional solutions then you will want a beamsplitter and there you can use dual cameras. Check out 3dfilmfactory for professional rigs just to get an idea. But using beamsplitter rig you will need to either hire a professional stereographer or start training because there's a lot more to it than 3D camcorders.
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post #4 of 27 Old 07-15-2018, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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My thanks to both of you gentleman for responding.

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Who is your target audience and what sort of "films" are you planning to do?
Micro-budget independent genre films. I've set up a website to keep colleagues and co-workers in the know, mostly people I've worked with before. I'm nearing 61 years old and have been in and out of regional television production and film most of my life. I write chamber plays. They can be staged for the theater, or they can be small films. No big expensive setpieces. As an example of the size and scope of my proposed productions, check out the first Paranormal Activity -- no not my film -- that cost the filmmaker under $15,000 to make and to his astonishment it spawned a multi-million dollar franchise. There are many similar examples. My target is the annual American Film Market in Santa Monica, where distributors come from all over the world to meet with independents and buy their films. It's sort of like a supermarket across the tracks, in the independent neighborhood. I'm confident my first effort will find a distributor and an audience, but if it doesn't I'm not worried. We'll just put out some ads and sell it on a website. By which time I'll have moved on to the next one.

Many thanks for your question. Richard.

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post #5 of 27 Old 07-15-2018, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your good reply, tomtastic.

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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
There are currently no 3D camcorders on the market. There were several models manufactured between 2010-2013 from various companies like Sony, JVC and Panasonic but are no longer sold. You will have to pick them up used. All of them had fixed stereo base and non removable lenses. There were 3rd party attachments produced by Cyclopital3d for awhile but you would have to inquire what item you're looking for. They no longer make some of the items on their site. They have base extenders to widen the range of 3D effect..
I hoped in 2018 to find something new and more versatile in 3D camcorders, but it seems the opposite is the case. I wanted shooting to be simpler and less time-consuming. I'm hearing about a Red Epic 3-D camcorder, but it isn't out yet.

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All of the 3D camcorders shoot in 1.78 16x9 and are HD. No 4K 3D camcorders have been made yet, other than some 180 VR 3D stuff..
1.78-1, of course. what was I thinking. A comfortable frame to compose in, and just right for me.

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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
If you want to take a look at some of the models that were made there is a page on BH that has a list of most of them with some information on them.

Take a look here at BHphoto here and here.

Some of these models will be hard to find now as they've been out of production for awhile, have to check around..
They are hard to find if not impossible. I visited BH's 3D camcorder page years ago, forgot it existed. I had a couple of hours practice with the Sony TD300 and a similarly rated camera which was either a JVC or a Panasonic I don't remember. A cameraman who owns both has a 3-D Studio in Burbank and charges $300K minimum for his services. Anyone who can't afford his rate is not up to professional level and therefore beneath his notice. He works occasionally, however.

I have two 3D camcorders sitting here but neither is suitable, a consumer-pro Panasonic and a little JVC 960-BU. Neither can be fed into any kind of edit system.

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If you're looking for professional solutions then you will want a beamsplitter and there you can use dual cameras. Check out 3dfilmfactory for professional rigs just to get an idea. But using beamsplitter rig you will need to either hire a professional stereographer or start training because there's a lot more to it than 3D camcorders.
Thanks for the reference. I've checked out the website and talked to Craig. 3Dfilmfactory is probably the solution, although not quite the solution I was looking for. I would still have to choose the cameras to mount in his rigs. This means I could shoot in 4K as desired, but
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post #6 of 27 Old 07-16-2018, 07:19 AM
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I see several issues here beyond getting a camera. The venues you are looking at for marketing and displaying your films probably don't have projection setups for 3D--or do they? Unless you are dealing with large theater chains, I doubt the independents buying up small productions have the 3D venues needed.

"I have two 3D camcorders sitting here but neither is suitable, a consumer-pro Panasonic and a little JVC 960-BU. Neither can be fed into any kind of edit system." I'm not sure this is true. Have you looked at Edius from GrassValley: https://www.grassvalley.com/products/edius_pro_9/ This is a popular editing system for many of us. Plus Cyberlink PowerDirector, which is great for taking output from Edius and creating 3D blurays. PowerDirector is also a 3D editor.

Also, not sure what you gain by capturing 4K video. It still would have to be edited down to 1080p to be able to show it.

Also, unless depth is an advantage to your films (for example, underwater or scenic documentaries), then I don't see the value of 3D other than making a stage play look real. In that case you would also need video cameras and projectors that can do high frame rate interpolation to make the actors look "real" as in soap operas.

That said, I know all of us 3D guys on this AVSforum would love to see someone venture out with new 3D ideas and be successful at it, so keep the fire going. You have a lot of knowledge sitting around in this forum.
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post #7 of 27 Old 07-16-2018, 08:15 AM
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Yes, I'm waiting to find out more info on the Red 4K 3D rig, myself. What we know about it so far: it will be an all in one camera and recorder setup in an over/under rig with beamsplitter glass. It will be adjustable stereo base and I believe also adjustable lenses, to what degree isn't clear like interchangable/removable. It will be 4K with dual lenses. It will use the new Hydrogen One phone as a pair-able 3D viewscreen. It will store the footage in RED's .h4v codec. The big questions are: what is the price range (they indicated prosumer market) and will the footage be usable after it's in h4v to be converted to a regular codec to work in existing NLE's with 3D workflow. If the footage can't be used in anything other than RED's proprietary software, I'm not interested.

Probably the best thing to know is what is your budget and like Don said what is your target? If you absolutely have to have 4K, then you really have to go the beamsplitter route and you're looking at a much larger budget for the rig, cameras and lenses but this is how the professionals do it. And likely you'll need at least 2 or 3 guys running that type of rig because there's a lot more going on there than point and shoot. Someone to check the 3D alignment, convergence and someone to pull focus. You'll also need a 3D monitor on set so you can check the 3D live so you're not shooting blind. Setting up a rig like that takes a lot of experience and knowledge. I built a small beamsplitter rig myself and I can tell you, it's no easy task getting the images lined up right. You've got all 3 axis to worry about. And you have to check it all the time for every shot and adjust the stereo base for the subject and distance. I mainly built it for macro work where I can't get close enough with my side by side cameras so it's task specific for me. I wouldn't want to use it as a primary camera for what I do right now, just too much hassle.

You can get good results with some of the prosumer 3D camcorders that were released, they are only HD but are a much cheaper solution and not as much to invest in with hardware and learning. A few of the consumer models only offered interlaced recording but the higher-end models have 24p film recording. You'll find that on models: JVC GY-HMZ1U, Sony NX3D1, Panasonic HDC-Z10000, Panasonic AG-3DA1/3DP1, Sony TD300. The final 3 models listed here in bold are the professional-grade 3D camera models that have SDI outputs, all other models only offer internal compression recording.
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post #8 of 27 Old 07-16-2018, 11:15 AM
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Richard- As Tom and bob already stated, the low end of 3D cameras are just no longer being made but you can still find them on ebay and other used markets.

I was also afraid you were either an aspiring independent film maker or a student in film school. Most of us here in this forum are hobbyists enjoying the technology for fun. Only a few here have actually made "films" that have been sold. Joe Clark was one and I am another. But today, my projects are all targeted to me and family. I do not monetize any of my work these days. My professional career was in TV advertising with over 2000 half hour TV infomercials in my portfolio. None of those were done in 3D, and because it was a few years ago none were even in HD. My company had a two bay edit suite and a 4 betacam mobile truck I traveled up and down the east coast doing production.

As Bob said producing in 3D for a public audience requires 3D presentation and that is almost non existent in the consumer arena. So, once you get it sold, it has to go to the theaters where 3D projection equipment still exists. I may be wrong on this but the days of a Blair Witch style low budget production are gone and probably would be saved by 3D. Sorry to be so negative.

I see tom has advised on several cameras and he is right to suggest the Panasonic 3DA1. It is about the minimum level camera to do a big screen movie with. Then if your project requires wider IA, I would too suggest checking out the rental houses as they would have the high end variable IA rigs and can even supply a tech person to do the shooting. These systems are highly technical and require specialized knowledge to set up and operate. The wide IA stuff some of us have done to experiment with are mostly for static long range shots that don't require genlocked cameras.

So once you get your shooting done, how do you plan to edit- Yourself with a high powered laptop to off line an edl? Most low budget film makers go that route and then take the footage and edl to a professional studio to the online session. 3D will limit your choice of studios for that.

Quote:
I know all of us 3D guys on this AVSforum would love to see someone venture out with new 3D ideas and be successful at it, so keep the fire going. You have a lot of knowledge sitting around in this forum.
Couldn't have said it better myself, Bob.
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post #9 of 27 Old 07-16-2018, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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post #11 of 27 Old 07-16-2018, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
I see several issues here beyond getting a camera. The venues you are looking at for marketing and displaying your films probably don't have projection setups for 3D--or do they? Unless you are dealing with large theater chains, I doubt the independents buying up small productions have the 3D venues needed.
In a word, yes. They do. But you're getting ahead of yourself here, 3DBob.

Find out about the AFM here:

americanfilmmarket.com

The AFM is equipped to screen everything. Even 3-D. Independent films at all budget levels are screened. All media including torrents are enabled. All media venues and all media rights in all territories in all countries are on the table. Distributors minor major and independent as well bankers and studios negotiate with filmmakers. The principle venue in this day and age is not theatrical but home video. Each year hundreds of films in dozens of languages are made, bought and sold. 4K capture has become a major selling point. It's an option on the menu along with standard bluray and 3-D. The filmmaker is responsible for providing a DCP (Digital Cinema Package). So one distributor might recover the filmmaker's expenses in Germany, where 3-D blurays are popular, while another distributor might do only theatrical rights in, say, Portugal. Any film that is professionally shot, artfully made, reasonably entertaining, and budgeted low is going to get distribution and recover its expenses.

The exception is horror films -- horror doesn't have to be professionally made to recover a hundred times what you spent on them.

But none of this is of concern here. I was asking about cameras.

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"I have two 3D camcorders sitting here but neither is suitable, a consumer-pro Panasonic and a little JVC 960-BU. Neither can be fed into any kind of edit system." I'm not sure this is true. Have you looked at Edius from GrassValley: https://www.grassvalley.com/products/edius_pro_9/ This is a popular editing system for many of us. Plus Cyberlink PowerDirector, which is great for taking output from Edius and creating 3D blurays. PowerDirector is also a 3D editor.
Actually, editing 3-D capture was to be my next post, or thread.

I was trained on the Grass Valley control room in the analog days. And three-chip cameras. How things have changed.

I've experimented with several consumer-end 3-D camcorders. I still have them, but they're not up to specs for the professional world. I used to shoot 16mm in my student and news days. But that was a long time ago. I was raised on Viewmaster and 3-D photography, so I have that background.

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Also, not sure what you gain by capturing 4K video. It still would have to be edited down to 1080p to be able to show it.
That's correct. But I'm talking about 4K in each eye.

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Also, unless depth is an advantage to your films (for example, underwater or scenic documentaries), then I don't see the value of 3D other than making a stage play look real. In that case you would also need video cameras and projectors that can do high frame rate interpolation to make the actors look "real" as in soap operas.
My films are conceived as stereoscopic experiences from script to screen. Personally I love working in 3-D and that's what I'm going to do. 3-D is still a marketable commodity, but I will work in it whether it's marketable or not because it pleases me to do so. Seriously disciplined stereoscopic photography will be my company's brand even if it's only for a niche market. I have specific stories I want to tell in the way I want to tell them. I make a highly professional film and then I go in fully loaded to supply the distributor's needs. I'm sufficiently realistic and down-to-earth enough to realize that I'll never get rich doing this, but I also know, from experience, that my expenses will be recovered with perhaps enough profit to pay all my friends and colleagues a little extra. It's not about big money. It's about doing what makes one happy.

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post #12 of 27 Old 07-16-2018, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Yes, I'm waiting to find out more info on the Red 4K 3D rig, myself. What we know about it so far: it will be an all in one camera and recorder setup in an over/under rig with beamsplitter glass. It will be adjustable stereo base and I believe also adjustable lenses, to what degree isn't clear like interchangable/removable. It will be 4K with dual lenses. It will use the new Hydrogen One phone as a pair-able 3D viewscreen. It will store the footage in RED's .h4v codec. The big questions are: what is the price range (they indicated prosumer market) and will the footage be usable after it's in h4v to be converted to a regular codec to work in existing NLE's with 3D workflow. If the footage can't be used in anything other than RED's proprietary software, I'm not interested.
You echo my own and everyone else's questions. I will be pleasantly surprised if RED is ready to announce the camera next month. If it checks off all the boxes watch for a new era in 3D filmmaking and 3D live event broadcasting followed by a surge in home video 3D sales. Regarding lenses, I wish the high-grade Zeiss or Angenieux primes could somehow be tooled for 3D and 4K capture. The sharpest, deepest and most aesthetically pleasing photography is always spherical; always. Manufacturers boast about the zoom lenses on their video cameras, but I'm not impressed. If I had a choice in the matter I wouldn't allow a zoom on my set. I hope RED will take lensmanship seriously and offer interchangeable primes instead of zooms.

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Probably the best thing to know is what is your budget and like Don said what is your target?
These things have been determined but I'm not discussing them here. I will say this much: each project is conceived from the get-go as a 3-D experience and is built upon available resources. Single camera. A script is 75 pages, storyboarded, some take place in real time, 12 days principle photography maximum. No gore.

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If you absolutely have to have 4K, then you really have to go the beamsplitter route and you're looking at a much larger budget for the rig, cameras and lenses but this is how the professionals do it. And likely you'll need at least 2 or 3 guys running that type of rig because there's a lot more going on there than point and shoot. Someone to check the 3D alignment, convergence and someone to pull focus. You'll also need a 3D monitor on set so you can check the 3D live so you're not shooting blind. Setting up a rig like that takes a lot of experience and knowledge. I built a small beamsplitter rig myself and I can tell you, it's no easy task getting the images lined up right. You've got all 3 axis to worry about. And you have to check it all the time for every shot and adjust the stereo base for the subject and distance. I mainly built it for macro work where I can't get close enough with my side by side cameras so it's task specific for me. I wouldn't want to use it as a primary camera for what I do right now, just too much hassle.
Your points are well taken and have occurred to me. That's why I was hoping to find a sophisticated and economically priced 3D camcorder that would be easy to shoot with. I wanted to avoid hiring a large camera crew and just use a couple of people I had worked with before.

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You can get good results with some of the prosumer 3D camcorders that were released, they are only HD but are a much cheaper solution and not as much to invest in with hardware and learning. A few of the consumer models only offered interlaced recording but the higher-end models have 24p film recording. You'll find that on models: JVC GY-HMZ1U, Sony NX3D1, Panasonic HDC-Z10000, Panasonic AG-3DA1/3DP1, Sony TD300. The final 3 models listed here in bold are the professional-grade 3D camera models that have SDI outputs, all other models only offer internal compression recording.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't rental services for all the above cameras ended? Hasn't technical support and repair ended as well? If I spend the money on a used Panasonic AG-3DP1 with an expired warranty and it turns out to have issues, that's the end of 3D production. Hiring someone to shoot the film who owns the camcorder and guarantees it will work costs more than buying it used and inevitably busts the budget.

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post #13 of 27 Old 07-16-2018, 10:03 PM
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I doubt any place would still have these for rent. None of these would have any existing warranties now but Panasonic still has service options on them for repair at owner cost. The 3DP1, good luck finding that one for sale anywhere, they seem to be more common overseas. They were used during the London Olympics 2012 along with a few 3DA1 models, I remember viewing some of the 3D content on DirecTV. The shoulder cams, quite a lot to haul around and would only gain 10 bit and better compression and slightly larger sensors. Given that there are so few consumer options for 3D, I just provided what was released.

If you've never shot 3D before there are consumer models too which is where I would start. Sony released a few models: TD-10, TD-20 and TD-30, all of these are basically the same and can be easily edited on various NLE's. The TD-10 models can be picked up used on eBay between 350-700 now, I bought 2 this year myself and have used one of them for several projects. It makes a nice walking around camera with decent image stabilization. One drawback since it's consumer grade is 60i only recording and make sure you don't order a Pal 50hz model, they show up on eBay USA too. There's also JVC-TD1 similar to the TD10 but they don't show up as often on eBay.

If it was me, I would pick up a used TD10 before you get in deep on it, if you've never filmed in 3D before. Use that camera for awhile and frame some scenes and then decide where you want to go. Obviously, the TD10 and even the professional 3D camcorders aren't going to match the professional rigs out there with better recording codecs, sensors, glass and adjustable interaxials, but it's a start.

After I finished making my homemade beamsplitter and started in on alignment, I realized how much I took for granted what these all in one 3D cameras can do. They are already aligned on the horizontal and vertical axis you just have to set your convergence when you film, or not. If you screw up convergence in camera on these you can always adjust them later in post, but not so much on physical toe-in of beamsplitter or side by side rigs which is burned in for most part. You can do some adjustment in post but there are limits.

I don't think anyone was asking specifically what you're plans were just that you need to consider budget and target audience because 3D has been slowly fading over the past few years. The number of households with a 3DTV are only what they were a few years ago at most since 3DTV's are no longer made, and the numbers are dropping as they upgrade to the newest 4K screens that aren't 3D equipped. So you just want to keep things in perspective, have a budget and your target venue in mind. I certainly wouldn't go all out on a 3D beamspitter rig with Red Epics and all that if you can't make sufficient ROI, you get the idea.

And BTW, I saw last year there was a low budget horror movie filmed on the Panasonic HDC-Z10000 and GoPro hero called Found Footage 3D. The Z10k (as we call it around here for short, a few of us have that one) was the main camera used for both A and B rigs, they used the Hero3D for placement shots in corners. It was in small theater distribution when I inquired if they were releasing a Blu ray 3D on it, they responded they hoped to get it on Blu ray at some point. I checked recently and saw it was available for streaming in 2D and 3D on Amazon but I think just anaglyph. The trailer looked decent, only in 2D, very professional for a low budget gig and glad to see someone using the Z10k for 3D films, I really like the camera overall, it could use higher bit rate recording but overall, it's not bad, has a ton of options in menu. Unfortunately the HDMI output only allows SbS half so if you go to external recorder it will not receive full HD frames.

The only one that will in the lower end budget is the 3DA1 which I also have. It has separate dual stream internal recording which is less compressed than the MVC compression that the TD10 and other models use. It also has SDI outputs if you want better recording control. But it's a much larger camera than the TD10 and even the Z10k. Weighs in at 6.5lbs with battery and Zunow lenses installed, not including external recorders. I have a standard-sized steady cam and it's a beast on there, takes all the weights to keep it steady.

But it's not an auto camera at all, have to manually focus, manually control exposer and convergence. The lenses are pretty narrow, like 47 degrees so you either have to shoot everything 10 feet out or buy the Zunow kit which is a wide angle adapter to bring the field of view to around 30 degrees, more usable.

The professionals will tell you beamspitter is the way to go. They're probably right. If you have the budget and expect to get something back on it. Other than the Red 3D camera and even if that's in a feasible price range and the footage can be used at all or just in their holographic codec, there isn't much other options. I have built a side by side portable 4K3D rig with dual Sony AX100's. But I only use it for mostly static shots, scenery and such. I've shot a few wide base shots with it too so it's nice to get distance shots with it where these close interaxial cameras can't reach. But since the cameras aren't genlocked, I can't use it for a lot of things or it will show mis-sync.
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post #14 of 27 Old 07-16-2018, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
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....
And BTW, I saw last year there was a low budget horror movie filmed on the Panasonic HDC-Z10000 and GoPro
hero called Found Footage 3D. The Z10k (as we call it around here for short, a few of us have that one) was the
main camera used for both A and B rigs, they used the Hero3D for placement shots in corners. It was in small
theater distribution when I inquired if they were releasing a Blu ray 3D on it, they responded they hoped to get it
on Blu ray at some point. I checked recently and saw it was available for streaming in 2D and 3D on Amazon but
I think just anaglyph. The trailer looked decent, only in 2D, very professional for a low budget gig and glad to see
someone using the Z10k for 3D films, I really like the camera overall, it could use higher bit rate recording but
overall, it's not bad, has a ton of options in menu. Unfortunately the HDMI output only allows SbS half so if you
go to external recorder it will not receive full HD frames. ...

I would like to study 3-D footage shot with the Panasonic HDC-Z10000. For that matter, I would like to study
footage shot with the other 3-D cameras we've mentioned here.
But forget about Found Footage. It's anaglyph junk. It's supposed to come out on bluray September 24 but
whether or not in 3D is not yet clear.

There are many low-budget and micro-budget horror films shot in 3D for the home video market, especially
in Germany. For example, get yourself A Haunting In Salem 3D (The Asylum, 2011):

https://www.amazon.com/Haunting-Sale...oding=UTF8&me=




The film was shot with two RedOnes thru a beamsplitter. Stereographers were Shannan Benna and Neil A. Clark
who, I understand, were trained by Stereovision and Stereoscope in Burbank. The dp was a Alexander Yellen.
The film isn't much, but the 3-D is excellent.

My information is that it was shot over two weekends on a budget of $40,000 which is huge for The Asylum
Entertainment Group, a direct-to-DVD company that thrives on micro-budget genre films.
More later.

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post #15 of 27 Old 07-17-2018, 07:52 AM
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Richard--"That's correct. But I'm talking about 4K in each eye." Even if you were able to get and produce 4K 3D, there is no way to show it other than stacked 4K polarized projectors, and I doubt if that exists in the commercial marketplace. Interesting idea, though.

It appears that you have a lot of video industry knowledge, which is obviously a plus, and I hope you succeed. My 3D experience started out with a Realist camera, viewer and 3D Realist projector. Still have the cameras and viewers. I then got into 3D video using the gopro 3+ twin genlocked camera system--almost impossible to find but some do show up n ebay now and then. Many of us 3D AVSforum junkies started that way. Also have a Sony TD-10, pocketable Panasonic 3D1, and Fuji W3. The TD-10 is the only one that gives decent video along with the gopro 3+ system.

This company might be your only hope for pro 3D stuff: http://www.radiantimages.com/cameras/3d/3d-cameras

According to their blog, they are getting into VR technology. It might be the door to start. While VR isn't exactly what you had in mind, you are more likely to find cameras, software and rentals in that emerging technology.
http://www.radiantimages.com/blog

You might want to start with viewing some of the videos shot by us "amateurs," just to see what can be done on the "cheap" if you will. Along with video, audio is also a problematic area as many have found out--that is another nemesis along with capturing good 3D.

Here is an example of using the gopro 3+ system and editing in Edius. This had to be stablized. Ignore the stupid chatter .
The reason I picked this video is it shows what can be done with wide angle lenses and an interaxial of about 1.5 inches. The depth is better than you might expect, and you will see that closeups can be done (example the engine mounts) without a lot of converge issues. This was shot in 2.7k and reduced to SBS 1080x30p. I'm assuming you have a 3D TV, PC or projector to watch these videos--if not you're going to have a bigger problem than just making 3D movies.

Perhaps Don, Tom and Barry can share some of their videos, especially those using twin cameras and other more professional video cameras...Youtube now only shows 3D videos on PC browsers using HTML 5, which is anaglyph. I managed to bypass that in some videos, so the example above should download as SBS. If not you will need to use PowerDVD and download videos to watch, or get a youtube downloader that captures the original format. Most 3D projectors, when going through a smart app (ala a bluray player that has the youtube app) will show the 3D correctly.
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post #16 of 27 Old 07-18-2018, 06:10 AM
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post #17 of 27 Old 07-18-2018, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Richard--"That's correct. But I'm talking about 4K in each eye." Even if you were able to get and produce 4K 3D, there is no way to show it other than stacked 4K polarized projectors, and I doubt if that exists in the commercial marketplace. Interesting idea, though.
All motion pictures and all television are digital now. Sometimes film is still used, but it's a digital industry. 4K is standard operating procedure. 6K and 8K are also widely used for capture and will become the standard soon. 4K capture helps a micro-budget indy sell to distributors. In fact 4K is a bigger selling advantage than 3D, although 3D is still perceived as an advantage in many territories. 4K is becoming commonplace in home video. There are many 4K | 3D combo packs:



As I said in the post above, 4K and 3D are options on the menu. An indy filmmaker really has to step up to the plate if he expects to get distribution. The rule of thumb is: GIVE DISTRIBUTORS WHAT THEY WANT. In 2018 they want 4K, 3D and HD options as well as projection codes -- i.e. a DCP. Commentaries, supplements and electronic press books have to be built-in. A distributor will decide to use it or not use it, but it has to be built-in when you deliver. But my films are really small, and if I don't get distributed, I'll just sell my brand on a website and through online retailers. I'll do everything that's expected of me to make money for my colleagues who give their time and effort, but if the film doesn't make money I'm not going to worry about it. I just want to make sure I shoot it right and proper.

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It appears that you have a lot of video industry knowledge, which is obviously a plus, and I hope you succeed.
Thanks. Forgive me if I sound like a know-it-all, but I have a lot of production experience. I know how to produce a program and a feature film, and I know how to put the product into the marketplace. I'm also an experienced writer and director with a practical working knowledge of all disciplines involved. I know all the camera setups. I haven't worked in the business in twenty years, and there is zero chance of ever getting back in, but I keep abreast. Right now I want to make some small humble films, personal films, stories I want to tell in a specific way. I write the scripts to give myself something to direct. They are not ambitious films. I don't have unrealistic expectations. But in the end, I want people to see them.

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My 3D experience started out with a Realist camera, viewer and 3D Realist projector. Still have the cameras and viewers. I then got into 3D video using the gopro 3+ twin genlocked camera system--almost impossible to find but some do show up n ebay now and then. Many of us 3D AVSforum junkies started that way. Also have a Sony TD-10, pocketable Panasonic 3D1, and Fuji W3. The TD-10 is the only one that gives decent video along with the gopro 3+ system.
I tinkered with the Stereo Realist as well. Fumbled over the slide-making which frankly drove me nuts. Sold all that on ebay years ago. I have several of the little digital 3D cameras. I've shot a number of events with my consumer-level 3D camcorders, trying out different approaches at the zoo and visits to the wax museum. Viewmaster was my first acquaintance with 3-D. I had hundreds of them when I was a kid. My favorites were the TV tie-ins like Batman, Dark Shadows, and Star Trek. I also collected foreign places that interested me. I have the Viewmaster projector and screen, a gift from a 3-D technologist who worked at Stereovision International. My first 3-D experience was the revival of House of Wax 3D in 1971. Saw it many, many times, and again when it was revived in 1981. I was a devoted ticket-buyer during the early 1980s 3-D Revival. I attended every screening at the World 3-D Film Expos in Hollywood in 2003, 2006 and 2013. I own about 200 3-D films on bluray, including the IMAX documentaries. I have a ton of 3-D footage people have shared with me.

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This company might be your only hope for pro 3D stuff: http://www.radiantimages.com/cameras/3d/3d-cameras

According to their blog, they are getting into VR technology. It might be the door to start. While VR isn't exactly what you had in mind, you are more likely to find cameras, software and rentals in that emerging technology.
http://www.radiantimages.com/blog
Thanks for the link. I spoke with Tony at Radiant Images. Some of the stereo cameras on their website haven't been available for years. He says the 3D section needs to be revised. We went down the list of 3-D inventory, what's available and what the rates are. Right now they're renting stereo rigs for $1,500 a day and two 6K REDS for $1,000 a day. Matched lenses are an additional charge. They generally include Angenieux 30-60mm zooms. I love the brand but not the zooms or the f-stop. All in all this company is good to keep in mind, but so far out of my price range as to be no more than wishful thinking. I could buy equipment and own it for the prices they charge. Or, I could buy a house in Queens NY and convert it to a mini-studio with a two-story green cyc and a white cyc and a lighting grid overhead.

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post #18 of 27 Old 07-23-2018, 12:52 PM
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I would like to study 3-D footage shot with the Panasonic HDC-Z10000. For that matter, I would like to study
footage shot with the other 3-D cameras we've mentioned here.
If your primary goal is to have low cost, Blu-Ray 3D MVC compliant video, your options are limited (unless you have access to the Sony DoStudio $20k software suite that can encode any 3D stream into MVC).

For Blu-Ray 3D compliant MVC video (edited with Vegas), your choices are limited to Sony or Panasonic cameras as the JVC and other 3D cameras are not Blu-Ray compliant (without separate MVC encoding software). If that's not a concern (i.e. Blu-Ray 3D isn't your final destination, but SBS or O/U is), then your choice in cameras and editing suites opens considerably.

If you're looking at the HDC-Z10000 you might as well look at the Panasonic 3DA1 as it has a much wider IO distance between the lenses.

If you were looking at the Sony side of things, then the Sony NX3D1 (broadcast version of the TD10 but also supports 24p) for very close scenes (i.e. within a 10-15 foot radius) and the Sony DEV-50 digital binoculars (had a very wide IO distance) for bigger scenes beyond 10-15 feet. Unless you're working in very tight quarters, I'd avoid the Sony TD20/30 as the IO distance is even narrower than the TD10 and the 3D tends to go flat if objects aren't within 7-10 feet of the camera. I owned the TD10/20/30 and the DEV-50 and shot a production with all of them (and didn't want 24p, so that wasn't an issue). I ended up going out 720p MVC Blu-Ray 3D which was fine for my needs.

The Panasonics are high quality cameras, but in my limited experience of shooting 3D, I never found a single camera fitting all needs, and thus shot with multiple. However, I have since gotten out of 3D, but entertain the idea of getting back into it. If I did, the Sony TD10 and DEV-50 would suffice for me.

A TD10 can be had for about $500, a DEV-50 around $1500 (likely have to import from Japan, U.S. models don't come up for sale frequently - but the DEV series can have the language changed to English unlike the consumer TD series)

The Panasonic cameras aren't cheap with the Z10000 going for ~ $2k and the 3DA1 for over $4k.

My .02
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post #19 of 27 Old 07-24-2018, 10:45 AM
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I'll add a couple points, I've only seen one Dev-50 come up recently on eBay and they wanted around 2500 for it. Way over priced. If you really need to shoot distance 3D, dual cameras is the way to go. I've shot some longer lens stuff with 80-130mm stereo base dual cameras and it turned out decent and it might be a cheaper way to go, plus with better cameras.

There's also Power Director which produces 3D Blu rays, if you don't mind the 60i to 24p conversion you can use any 3D camcorder and put on blu ray. I've seen some conversion this way and it's not too bad. If you want native progressive frames, you're limited to the prosumer or professional 3D camcorders I listed before. And only the top 3 models have 720p 3D native recording like the 3DA1 but I've only used it once or twice. 1080p24 is much superior quality, just have to keep camera stable.

The 3DA1, it has a 60mm stereo base but you need the wide angle kit which reduces the stereo base so the camera is usable under 8 feet. It has a very narrow FOV of 47mm which is quite awful stock. So having wide I.A. lens spacing isn't always important, only if you want more distance 3D which becomes more complicated especially with zooming at distances.
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post #20 of 27 Old 07-24-2018, 11:51 AM
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There are many 4K | 3D combo packs:
Actually this combo is very new. I bought Pacific Rim and it seems these are something Best Buy is getting exclusively. I like it!



Richard- I can see you have a long history in the business. Most of us here in this forum are not in the film production business, rather are hobbyists experimenting with the format. I worked in TV advertising which is far different from film. But I dabbled in just about everything from low budget films, to news, to soft porn, to sports, documentaries, and educational videos, professionally. You mentioned 16mm. My first film camera was a Bolex winder. Later I discovered Super 8 with a Canon 1014 and under water housing. I made 4 20 minute films of underwater Caribbean and did the lecture circuit with them at colleges and Universities in NY. What I am reading into your posts is you seem pretty certain you need 3D for your story. I think we all recognize that 3D for the 3rd-5th time has had it's day. It may be getting a comeback in 360VR now but the only format driven success story I recall in recent years is IMAX. The part of the business you are doing I really know nothing about. I'm an equipment guy, who worked for people like you that lacked the equipment and/or technical understanding of the process. To be a success, it seems you should define your best talent and then partner with other experts who can do the parts you are weak in. While I dabbled in most of the areas of the business, it wasn't until I partnered with a producer, writer, director from NYC that we both achieved success. There was a synergism that together, he would say 1+1 =10. He said he struggled to get 1 show a month on the air and after we teamed up as 50:50 partners, we were doing 12-20 shows a month. From 1 market to 9 markets.

Today, I'm only interested in this as a hobby and shoot and edit for the fun of it to document my personal travels. I really don't care if others look at the video on YT. I don't monetize them and don't care if others put their ads on my work. Our small group here pretty much has the same attitude. I wonder if there are any good forums for the professionals. There used to be but I recall many members were not very respectful and often rude.
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post #21 of 27 Old 07-25-2018, 03:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Richard- As Tom and bob already stated, the low end of 3D cameras are just no longer being made but you can still find them on ebay and other used markets.

I was also afraid you were either an aspiring independent film maker or a student in film school. Most of us here in this forum are hobbyists enjoying the technology for fun. Only a few here have actually made "films" that have been sold. Joe Clark was one and I am another. But today, my projects are all targeted to me and family. I do not monetize any of my work these days. My professional career was in TV advertising with over 2000 half hour TV infomercials in my portfolio. None of those were done in 3D, and because it was a few years ago none were even in HD. My company had a two bay edit suite and a 4 betacam mobile truck I traveled up and down the east coast doing production.
Hmmm, I drove an ENG mobile truck for Cox cable to shoot events all over southern California in the early 1980s. Grass Valley-equipped.

From what I have read here and the samples I've seen, Don Landis I would say you're as professional as they come. In the areas of computer technology and your grasp of stereoscopic videography you surpass everyone I've met (except for an old-time 3-D technologist who made a lot of movies and is now too frail too work). I don't know anyone who could have built that supercomputer for editing that you put together. That takes real know-how, and I'm as envious as everybody else, but then, everybody I've met in this forum is awfully smart and generous with what they know.

As I said before, I haven't worked in the business in twenty years. I keep up with developments and changes, but I don't have a job in the industry. I don't particularly want to work for anyone, either. Instead of taking orders and doing what administrators and executives order me to do, I just want to make my own little films and be happy doing it. I don't monetize my work, either, meaning that I don't pay myself a salary to make my film. But I do offer financial colleagues an irresistible deal -- they make first money. After the film is released and they've recovered 100% of the money they put in, I take a hefty percentage. But first everyone who put money in gets it back. This could happen overnight if a distributor offers a straight buy-out, which is likely to happen.

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As Bob said producing in 3D for a public audience requires 3D presentation and that is almost non existent in the consumer arena. So, once you get it sold, it has to go to the theaters where 3D projection equipment still exists. I may be wrong on this but the days of a Blair Witch style low budget production are gone and probably would be saved by 3D. Sorry to be so negative.
Micro-budget run & gun horror thrives in the direct-to-bluray / DVD market. I have a recent link about this and just received an update that I will look for in the chaos of my emails and post here:


Even if the micro-budget horror film isn't a big hit, even if it doesn't break through to movie screens, one can still make enough money in home video to live on for awhile, or enough to make a better film with. Take a look at The Asylum Home Entertainment catalog or Full Moon for example. Not my cup of tea, but they sell a ton of their own product every year:

https://www.fullmoondirect.com/

http://www.theasylum.cc/

Again, not my cup of tea, but the business model makes sense and the money talks.


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So once you get your shooting done, how do you plan to edit- Yourself with a high powered laptop to off line an edl? Most low budget film makers go that route and then take the footage and edl to a professional studio to the online session. 3D will limit your choice of studios for that.
I'm buying a new computer next week for 3D video edit software. Still sorting out which and what. It won't be anything special, I'm afraid.

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post #22 of 27 Old 07-25-2018, 08:49 AM
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Richard- I can't take all the credit on the computer build. I did the research and got to the point with the components that nobody in the industry could document. That was how many cores would be used by present edit software. I took a chance and spent $1200 more to go for the max. It paid off! Every edit program uses all 36 cores. The Nvidia graphics card was a different story. Vegas Pro v13 that I have doesn't recognize the GPU. I haven't looked into why. But it does render with all 36 cores on the CPU so it still is blazingly fast on stuff I still edit with Vegas Pro.

After much reading and comparing prices, I decided to have Velocity Micro build and test the base computer. They have the testing facility, I don't. The base included the MB and operating system and CPU with refrigeration unit. VM allows you to design your computer on their web site. So they build it and test it for a few days to certify it will run without trouble, both base and over clock. After I received it, I then made small modifications and additions. The m.2 OS drive was kept on the MB, but for video work drives I added two more m.2 as the MB had the slots plus an SSD as a hot swappable drive. Added a media card reader, Thunderbolt card, and 3 4TB hard drives for archive media storage. If you want your timeline to play smoothy in full resolution, no proxy files, you have to use the fastest storage drive for your camera clips. These would be the m.2 sticks that plug in directly to your mother board or into a PCIe card using a slot ( but this method is slower as they often share total bandwidth with another PCIe slot). SSD drives usually are not fast enough for 3D high resolution video files in real time speed.

Recommendations:

My 2 cents: No single edit software can do everything.

For 3D stereoscopic editing:
I would recommend Edius. But Edius is not good for audio in 5.1. only audio in stereo.
For the 5.1 sound track use Vegas Pro. or a dedicated audio editing program.

Avoid Premiere Pro because it doesn't support stereoscopic editing except in 360VR. So if you are doing 360VR in 3D it is about the only game in town that will do it all.

Most of us amateurs here like Power Director from cyberlink because it can create a Blu Ray disk with 3D menus, and DTS 5.1 sound. But I find basic editing awkward so I only use the timeline for assembling 3D video files that have been pre-edited in Vegas or Edius. Prefer Edius because it is less buggy.

I also use Magix but only for the Travel map animation package. It was cheap so I justify just for that tool for my travel videos.

For 3D editing highly recommend having two monitors minimum. One dedicated for your output 3D screen. These are going to be hard to find. I had to order my LG from China and the remote is in Chinese but I figured it out. Therefore your graphics card should support two monitors minimum in 3D. Be sure to verify that. They can use display port or HDMI but you will need the display port to HDMI adapter.

The editing packages all support second monitor for 3D, either TB, SbS, Line interleave on a passive monitor. I set my output to line interleave since that doesn't require switching the monitor manually. It will display 2D or 3D automatically. All passive 3D monitors work that way. If you use an active monitor you will need to use a manual mode like TB or SbS. For single viewer editing, I recommend passive over active. No eye fatigue on passive either.
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post #23 of 27 Old 07-25-2018, 09:31 AM
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Unsure if this is any help but... years ago when attending Interbike (the international bicycle show) GoPro had some 3D videos being played that had been made w/2 GoPro cameras recording simultaneously. May be worth looking into.

I've no experience so I only offer it as a possibility. GoPros are pretty cheap in the camera world... No idea what software was used to merge the images or what kind of external device may have been used to capture the video.

Good luck!!
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post #24 of 27 Old 07-25-2018, 10:06 AM
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Muphasta- We are familiar with the GoPro 3D rig and most of us have and use them. There are threads here that discuss the technology, features and limitations. But thanks for the suggestion.
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post #25 of 27 Old 07-25-2018, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Unsure if this is any help but... years ago when attending Interbike (the international bicycle show) GoPro had some 3D videos being played that had been made w/2 GoPro cameras recording simultaneously. May be worth looking into.

I've no experience so I only offer it as a possibility. GoPros are pretty cheap in the camera world... No idea what software was used to merge the images or what kind of external device may have been used to capture the video.

Good luck!!
I've been keeping an eye on GoPro 3D. I may get a GoPro to play around with down the road, but it's not useful for these film projects. I'm not doing extreme sports nor action movies. There will be considerable suspense, I hope, but no skydiving nor skiing stuff. I'm not athletic anymore. Actually, I do have a relationship drama about three twenty-somethings on a boat. It takes place on the water and involves swimming. I have selected the location. It will be very cheap to make although additional crew will be needed to wrangle boat and water. But that project is a few years away.
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Last edited by Richard--W; 07-26-2018 at 12:36 AM.
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post #26 of 27 Old 07-26-2018, 09:13 AM
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I don't want to dredge up a whole re-discussion about the Gopro 3+ system, but we had a great time back in 2014-2016 discussing it.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/192-3...n-cameras.html

Here is a 3D printed version of a non-waterproof case I used in Africa in 2016:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/192-3...l#post44005874 It was easier to carry around the neck. Of course, without any LCD, I had to guess, but found that I did a pretty good job of getting the subjects in the center of the camera. Note the tripod screw mount in the bottom.
Using a modified genlock/sync cable, I was able to flip the cameras and double the interaxial distance for more 3D depth. Problem with that was it also introduced miniaturization, so I didn't use it much.

There is also mention in the 3+ forum of other genlocked twin camera systems (see Tomtastic) if you are willing to wade through all the threads.

If you do decide to get a system, note there are two systems, one for the Hero 2, which is much cheaper and one for the 3+ cameras. Avoid the Hero 2 system. For the 3+ 3D system, you will need to buy the "system" pack, which contains the plastic underwater case and the sync cable, and also two Gopro 3+ cameras, which are almost impossible to find these days, but they are around. We have found the later production models sometimes fail the 3D alignment properly and have to be realigned in editing software. The biggest issue with this system is no onboard stabilization, so that needs to be done in editing. The 3+ allows shooting in several view-angle sizes for super-wide to normal-- which is less problematic. Plus 2.7k, which can then be scaled to 1080p. The virtue of using 2.7k is that you can zoom in on subjects in editing software and still maintain good HD scaling. As surprising as it might be, with the proper tripod, and audio, this system could be used for 3D production--or for 3D scene rehearsals. Just takes some practice and good editing.
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Last edited by 3DBob; 07-26-2018 at 09:16 AM.
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post #27 of 27 Old 11-09-2019, 05:30 PM
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I just now saw a auction listing (on that famous auction site) for a nice used Sony TD30 at a reasonable price $899. Might want to check it out.
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