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post #1 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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New 3D camera does it all

The latest 3D camera from Vuze is now available for preorders. It's the Vuze XR

https://vuze.camera/camera/vuze-xr-camera/

It is actually a convertible 360VR camera that can open up to a 3D camera that shoots 180 degree wide angle. Very clever design that can switch formats with the push of a button. It shoots 5.7K at 30 fps and 4K at 60fps. Has image stabilization. It also will have an underwater housing available to ship in Q1 2019. The camera is now available for preorder to ship to US end of November. Preorders are $439 for the camera and UW housing. However for existing customers registered with HumanEyes Vuze360 owners, there is a 20% discount through an email that ends Oct 30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=qcPnOlky4Uo


https://www.facebook.com/xiality/vid...AwNTE4Nzc2MTI/


VuzeXR in the UW housing:
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post #2 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Ordered mine yesterday!

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post #3 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 11:34 AM
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Wish they would show some 3D video...Not sure what to expect.
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post #4 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 11:51 AM
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Yes, there's nothing more convincing than sample footage.

No LCD screen. Yi Horizon was supposed to release this fall but we're still waiting. It's also 400.00 5.7K and has adjustable touchscreen LCD back. It's only 180 VR 3D but only 2 lenses for 360 will not work anyway unless you like walleye vision.

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post #5 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
Ordered mine yesterday!
Don I have seen your 3D video's in the past like awesome except I do not know how to enjoy the through my Z9D 3D TV ?? What glasses do I need I have active shutter . Not sure my TV is picking up the 3d signal. Thanks .
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post #6 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Few people have seen this in action except for employees and those associated with the company. I believe they have showed it now at several VR trade shows in Europe. I tried to get my hands on one but was denied. LOL!

This was shot by an associate of the company who got the early beta model back in September when they first announced the camera. I have only seen this in anaglyph and some of the video was probably shot too close for 3D with a 60-65mm interocular distance. But the 3D in wider open spaces looks pretty good. For a 180 FOV the quality is pretty decent.




I loaded it up on my new iphone XS Max and put the phone in google cardboard mode and put in my HMD and the 3D was perfect, even the close up stuff. So if you have a large screen iphone and an HMD you can see the quality of the VuzeXR in 3D. I may try to download a SBS of this and see how it looks in my home theater screen later.

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post #7 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I was able to download the video and then play it on my passive TV. The formatting of the 3D is SBS from the YT but in 3D equirectangular formatting specifically made for HMD. The image quality looks very good, I would say close to 1080px1920 HD which is a real improvement from the 360VR stuff in 4K.
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post #8 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobKnapp View Post
Don I have seen your 3D video's in the past like awesome except I do not know how to enjoy the through my Z9D 3D TV ?? What glasses do I need I have active shutter . Not sure my TV is picking up the 3d signal. Thanks .

Hi Rob. I'm not sure what TV you have but I would suggest reviewing the manual for your TV.

To view 3D off of You Tube you should put the TV in the mode that is most common to start, That would be 3D side by side. If that doesn't work, thyen put the TV in top / bottom or over under. You Tube requires this with 3D TV's if you don't have a 3D TV, like most computer screens than YT defaults to anaglyph or red/cyan and then you need colored glass as seen in Bob's avatar. The color will be off but you will be able to see 3D. You might need to change the settings in YT to access anaglyph.

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post #9 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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No LCD screen.
No, it doesn't need one. However, if you insist the camera live streams to an iphone screen. You can mount the iphone on the handle or view from a wifi distance. My Vuze 360 works the same way but you see 4 cameras in windows.

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post #10 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 02:00 PM
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No, it doesn't need one.
I disagree. I have a screen on every camera, otherwise I would be shooting blind. And linking to phone is not a substitute for a built in screen.

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post #11 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I disagree. I have a screen on every camera, otherwise I would be shooting blind. And linking to phone is not a substitute for a built in screen.
You may not understand the type of camera this is. A VR360 camera shoots everything. The VR180 shoots everything in front of you. So a screen is really superfluous. To use an analogy, you put a scope on a hunting rifle but you would not put one on a hand grenade. VR cameras do not replace flat image format cameras, 2D or 3D.

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post #12 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 03:56 PM
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Yes, I understand. It's VR 180/360, well hardly 360 with only 2 cameras but they're calling it that anyway. You still need a screen even with 180 FOV, otherwise how would you know if you have everything in frame when shooting handheld? If you're going to always shoot from mounted location then yes, a screen isn't required since you just prepare to capture whatever is in its path, but still how much does an LCD add to the cost these days? I would expect an LCD by now without having to clumsily pair to a phone. Most of the shooting I would be doing with something like this would be handheld. Other benefits of LCD screen would provide easier function control and file navigation in camera.

GoPro added LCD's for a reason, sure you can use them without, but why not have an LCD if given the choice?

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post #13 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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with 180 FOV, otherwise how would you know if you have everything in frame when shooting handheld?
The point of this action camera is that it captures everything in front of the camera 180° wide angle so it is no longer critical. It's a completely different shooting philosophy. Even different between shooting 360 vs 180 is different. The best way to shoot 360 is to mount the camera on a monopod and then get away from it and let it capture everything. I've been trying to use the 360 cam in walking tour and it is very difficult as the stitching lines do not match well when your face is close up. The technology is just not good enough yet. So holding the 360 out in front at arm's length is the best you can do. VR180 solves this since it doesn't capture behind the camera plus the resolution in the HMD is doubled adding far more detail in the scene. This was really noticeable. Even cropping the 360 to 180 gets rid of the close up person holding the camera but doesn't help with the resolution.

But, let's consider that you are doing a scripted event and MUST follow the director's camera moves. Yes this might need the monitor. I used to work this way in business so I know the drill. The wide angle of a 180 capture makes it far less critical since scripted shooting can and usually is edited in post. But say it isn't. Directed shooting, whether working under a director's orders or you direct your own scripted moves, adding the iphone display is fast and easy if they did it the way they did with my Vuze 360.

When I sot with the VR360 up on a monopod above my head, I used the iphone remote screen to control record / pause as well as see that the camera was level as I walked through my planned path. To use the screen and controls was as easy as launching the app and hitting the wifi button on the camera. In 2 seconds I had all 4 camera angles in view. There are 6 cameras on the 360 but there is no need to see the stereo pair. In a more complicated system the higher end Vuze 360 offers live streaming and stitching to stereo if you have a computer with a 3D monitor. I saw this in action at NAB but I just have no need for that.


Quote:
GoPro added LCD's for a reason, sure you can use them without, but why not have an LCD if given the choice?
First of all GoPro is not a VR camera and it's shooting is much more limited in FOV than a VR180. However, the GoPro also offers the option of remote streaming and my gimbal for the GoPro even has a mount for the iphone. If you use several GoPro's in a VR system there is no live streaming nor monitor either.

My GoPro 3D rig eliminates the monitor, so I added a 3rd GoPro for recording 4K in alignment and it has a LCD back for aiming. I wouldn't be without it the screen on the GoPro 3D camera system. But it is mostly unnecessary on a VR camera except when I need to operate remote control.

If you don't plan on doing action shooting for VR best viewed with an HMD then the VuzeXR is the wrong tool. Stick to flat screen TV cameras.

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post #14 of 44 Old 10-16-2018, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
https://youtu.be/Q787tRrmbJ4
First of all GoPro is not a VR camera and it's shooting is much more limited in FOV than a VR180.
About a 30 degree difference than GoPros, half spherical. If you don't keep subjects within center they would fall out to the edges where fish eye distortion effect is most severe on these.

You still have to consider framing, maybe you're trying to keep certain subjects out as well which would be even harder with fish eye, not just pointing in the general direction and hoping for the desired shot, and with 3D certain images that would cause edge violations.

The Yi Horizon seems to use the same Sony sensors as the Vuze. Vuze uses Sony IMX378 processors, Yi uses IMX377 if the claims about using the same sensors as the Yi 360 are true or maybe they upgraded to the 378 by now. Due out this summer, well that came and went, lol! They say Yi never releases when the say. They changed it to fall 2018 so should be any time now. I think for the same money, who wouldn't want the screen? And it flips around.



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post #15 of 44 Old 10-17-2018, 12:09 AM - Thread Starter
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The Yi Horizon is also a nice rig for just VR180 and 2D 4K and is probably better suited for what you want to do. I was looking for one can to do both 360VR and VR180 in 3D plus be able to go underwater. I have 360VR in 3D now.

Both Vuze cameras have underwater capability but my Vuze360 needs a gimbal for stabilization while the new XR has stabilization built in, similar to that of the GoPro Hero 6.


Here is a great piece produced in VR180 3D. Looks really great in Google cardboard mode in my HMD. Not sure what cameras they used but Google is supporting VR180 with the YiHorizon, so I've heard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=9r6NI9m_IxM

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post #16 of 44 Old 10-17-2018, 06:43 AM
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The difference between the YI and the Vuze is the Vuze has 4K stabilization and the YI does not--though can't really tell from YI's website. It could be the reason they are holding off on selling it until they can implement it with the newer sensors.

This is a good read on the difference between the 378 and the 377 sensors. The 378 appears to have great HDR.

https://www.xda-developers.com/sony-...-its-features/
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post #17 of 44 Old 10-17-2018, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Bob- what smart phone do you use? I know you have an HMD but not sure what smart phone you use with it.

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post #18 of 44 Old 10-17-2018, 10:35 AM
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The Yi prototype was with last year's 377, could be they plan on using newest sensors with release, don't know, at this point they're a year old by now and Yi doesn't have the specs for the lenses posted, but reports indicated they were the last model not the current, but the new 378 were likely not available then when the prototype was released.

The difference is a BSI stacked backside illuminator which has phase detection auto focus. Yes, it's just for 180 which is all I would be interested in. I think for 360 you really need more lenses like your Vuze with 4 cameras, Don. With only two fish eye lenses for 360 that would be very restricting on the view directly behind and in front of the camera, it makes sense that most professional 360 rigs consist of multiple cameras, the more the better. For myself, I'm really only concerned with how the image looks for regular 16x9 3D which from the YT sample for the YI doesn't look too bad to me. A screen would further benefit keeping focus points centered for further cropping in post.

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Bob- what smart phone do you use? I know you have an HMD but not sure what smart phone you use with it.
Samsung 8. It has a high-res mode. I still see too much pixilation with it, so haven't used in a while.
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post #20 of 44 Old 10-17-2018, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Vuze with 4 cameras
Actually, the Vuze360 has 8 cameras that have 90 degree fov. The second 4 are for 3D pair. There is always a tradeoff with more cameras and narrower FOV. The tradeoff is processing beginning with the stitching. You can solve the stitching processing power by throwing money at the computer, like I did for a reasonable time to stitch the 8 cameras and render a 4Kx4K 120mbps clip in h265. But the actual work to stitch the seams can be very time consuming. A two camera 2D 360VR usually has very accurate stitching and is done in hardware on the camera. As the software gets better to stitch multicamera 360 video plus 3D it also gets obscenely expensive. Last I looked Mistika stitching system was subscription at $600 per month. Unless this is your business, it is hardly affordable. For a hobbyist, I just use the Vuze software that works good enough for my 8 cameras. The company is also important because they have frequent upgrades for free adding features and improvements and bug fixes.

I'm sure the Yi is going to move to the 378 camera. Otherwise they won't sell at the $400 price point. You may recall the "Two Eyes" kick stater camera I ordered going on 2 years ago. It had 4 cameras for 3D 360. They still are stalling. It had one advantage of a 2 stitch line 3D camera. Every month I get an email telling me how much trouble they are having getting the product made. Too many of these non common named companies are not well funded and can't deliver nor support the product if they do deliver. My first 360 camera the Giroptic360 made one upgrade that was not up to state of the art and then went out of business.

My daughter's Real Estate company is considering a 360VR 3D high end system that costs $4000 for a good system but then the video has to be sent to the company for stitching and editing which is a service charge. It can run into 5 figures for each property. Obviously only good for $1m + homes on the market. I shot two 360 videos for her as a favor and at no charge. She sold the properties with the video. One was shot with the Giroptic and the other with the Vuze.

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post #21 of 44 Old 10-17-2018, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Bob- I just compared my Sony Xperia Premium with the 4K LCD screen against my new iphone XS Max with the OLED screen and while the Sony has a higher resolution the iphone actually has better brighter image with better color saturation. 3D looks great on both. My older iphone 6+ was like your Samsung with obvious screen door look and poor detail. The Sony's only remaining advantage is the camera can shoot 960 fps for extreme slomo. But I have only used it to shoot a bullet firing from a gun. Just don't do that much slow-mo.

I have been waiting for Oculus to build a HMD with 4K per eye panels and then I plan to purchase. At this point the iphone XS Max with our cheap HMD holders has better image quality.

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post #22 of 44 Old 10-17-2018, 01:08 PM
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Bob- I just compared my Sony Xperia Premium with the 4K LCD screen against my new iphone XS Max with the OLED screen and while the Sony has a higher resolution the iphone actually has better brighter image with better color saturation. 3D looks great on both. My older iphone 6+ was like your Samsung with obvious screen door look and poor detail. The Sony's only remaining advantage is the camera can shoot 960 fps for extreme slomo. But I have only used it to shoot a bullet firing from a gun. Just don't do that much slow-mo.

I have been waiting for Oculus to build a HMD with 4K per eye panels and then I plan to purchase. At this point the iphone XS Max with our cheap HMD holders has better image quality.
Interesting, you XS Max has a resolution of 2688x1242, and my Sam 8 has 2960x1440. I should be getting a better image. Maybe I'm not doing something right...need to check...
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post #23 of 44 Old 10-17-2018, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, I didn't know your Samsung had the higher resolution with AMOLED. Does it use HDR for video playback? Both should be equivalent. But the Sony while funnier pixel density doesn't have the color saturation. The iphone 6+ is only 1080 x 1920.

I meant finer pixel density. The spell checker got me!

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post #24 of 44 Old 10-17-2018, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
Sorry, I didn't know your Samsung had the higher resolution with AMOLED. Does it use HDR for video playback? Both should be equivalent. But the Sony while funnier pixel density doesn't have the color saturation. The iphone 6+ is only 1080 x 1920.
Yes, it does have HDR. I have to laugh. I just haven't gone into the camera to see what all it can do--doh! And me with all of my other 5 cameras.... I need to look at this thing with a little more respect, apparently.
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post #25 of 44 Old 10-19-2018, 08:58 PM
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Meanwhile, back in the Gopro stoneage, having completed this year's time lapse films, I've finally started the Cozumel 3D underwater film for 2018. I'm still amazed at just how good that camera does at 2.7K Protune raw/flat mode. Now, I just wish they'd start selling replacement control button O-rings for the housings. They're only good for 1 or maybe 2 years and not more than 30 dives before they compress and start leaking when the buttons are pushed. Every year, I drown another camera and have to go on Ebay to replace it. From now on, I'll have to use a new housing every year. Fortunately, I've stocked up on them- for now. And no, the stupid crappy O-rings are proprietary and you can't find matching ones. The VERY experienced tech at our local dive shop has tried in vane, to no avail.
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post #26 of 44 Old 10-20-2018, 12:49 AM - Thread Starter
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And no, the stupid crappy O-rings are proprietary and you can't find matching ones. The VERY experienced tech at our local dive shop has tried in vane, to no avail.
Bull *****! I told you before the o-ring in the Gopro button seals are size 004 and use BUNA N 70 hardness.
https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Buna...ize+004+Buna+N


I looked at the metric size of 1.6x2.2 but it's ID is too loose.

The main seal and lens seal is indeed proprietary but not the push button Orings.

Lubricate the replacement oring with silicone high vacuum grease and pack the oring plastic collar before pushing the metal button into the oring. The hardest part is putting the tiny snap ring in place or removing it.


I would not trust the dive shop clerk on this. He obviously doesn't know much about this stuff.


I saw this on ebay you may want to bid on for cheap, not sure this will work for the Hero3 Black set. :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GOPRO-3D-HE...kqJ7:rk:1:pf:0

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post #27 of 44 Old 10-20-2018, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
Bull *****! I told you before the o-ring in the Gopro button seals are size 004 and use BUNA N 70 hardness.
https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Buna...ize+004+Buna+N


I looked at the metric size of 1.6x2.2 but it's ID is too loose.

The main seal and lens seal is indeed proprietary but not the push button Orings.

Lubricate the replacement oring with silicone high vacuum grease and pack the oring plastic collar before pushing the metal button into the oring. The hardest part is putting the tiny snap ring in place or removing it.


I would not trust the dive shop clerk on this. He obviously doesn't know much about this stuff.


I saw this on ebay you may want to bid on for cheap, not sure this will work for the Hero3 Black set. :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/GOPRO-3D-HE...kqJ7:rk:1:pf:0
Thanks Don!! I won't guarantee that my memory is better than yours- and probably isn't, but I don't recall you telling me about that specific o ring. But, no matter. I just ordered them and will be quite interested to see if they will indeed do the trick. Assuming they will, that will certainly solve a major problem.
That Ebay listing is for an older camera system housing, not the one for the 3+ Black.
Actually, each time I've drowned a camera, Gopro has provided me with another free one. This year, they did so again. Additionally, B&H had some they were discounting and I picked up another pair of them for $99. each. They've since raised the price back up to $199.
I'll let you know how this works out. The 3+Blacks on Ebay are getting to be much more hit and miss these days. I had to send two back. One, which they claimed had been thoroughly tested, didn't work right out of the box. Another turned out to be a Hero 3 and not a 3+ Black, although the listing said it was. After this, I saw several 3+ Black listing which were 3s and not 3+. You can tell by looking at the pictures. The 3+ will have a + on the lower right, the 3 will not.
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post #28 of 44 Old 10-20-2018, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a nice size chart from an actual oring company:
https://www.marcorubber.com/o-ring-size-chart-as568.htm

When I pulled one out to measure it, I noticed the oring chamber was filled with silicone grease high viscosity. I used this to repack the oring:
https://www.amazon.com/Corning-High-...ilicone+grease

I recall the last time this came up I looked online and saw a thread about it where some expert was using petroleum jelly. This is not good because the rubber will absorb the petroleum solvent and ruin the rubber.

Other Gopro comments-

Many Gopro enthusiasts are not happy with what GoPro did this year- The came out with a Hero 5 and claimed this was the best ever GoPro and it was really a great little camera. I attended a Seminar given by a GoPro rep on the Hero 5. He was also selling them for full list price. I decided that I would invest in a new Hero 5 to get some of the new features. By the time I got home and got around to ordering they were pushing the Hero 6 and claimed it soled all the problems and complaints with the 5. So I waited a month and bought the 6. It was a great little camera. Same price as the 5. I had to order all new accessories because the 5 and 6 weren't compatible with the 4. I think it was 2 months after I bought the 6 they released the 7, for the same price and claimed it fixed all the problems ( that I really didn't notice ) they had with the 6 and also claimed the video and stabilization was superior. People who bought the 5 and the 6 feel they got conned. Considering the time to go from the 4 to the 5 they could have waited and come out with the 7 features as a 5 with all the features and capabilities. Why sell the 5 in those factory seminars when in a couple months they release a 6 and in a couple more month a 7. Some GoPro enthusiasts believe that they will release an 8 with the sync connection for VR180 and VR360 3D because there are more and more people hacking into the cameras to enable this. There is considerable interest now for underwater VR 180 and 360 but these people are using the Vuze UW camera system as it is the best out right now.

BTW- at the seminar I went to was free but to participate in the hands on second day you had to buy a Hero 5 and then if at the end of the seminar you decided not to keep it, they gave you your money back less $100. So you got to do hands on seminar for $100. I just tagged along. Several bought in and I wonder what they thought when 2 months later the 6 was out and the advertising videos were showing how bad the image on the 5 was compared to the 6. I bet GoPro pulled the same stunt when they released the 7. It was nothing more than a trick to sell more cameras to enthusiasts who have to always have the latest bells and whistles.

Now having said all that, I will say the Hero 6 does perform voice control very well and I found myself using it more than I thought. The 5 ( from my seminar) failed quite a bit. It's IS is good too but still is improved with a gimbal.

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post #29 of 44 Old 10-20-2018, 10:31 AM
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I haven't really looked at any new Gopros in quite sometime, but just took a look at the specs on the new 7 black. It does have some nice features but, unfortunately, it still doesn't have the features that I would find most important. I wish they would update the sensor to allow for shooting 4K in FOVs narrower than just wide. I don't ever use wide and much prefer what used to be called medium FOV and always use 2.7K. The time lapse feature on the 7 is impressive, but for a HUGE limitation. It has very limited shutter speed flexability. Nowhere near enough to do really good quality lapses of moving people, cars, etc. For that, it's best to be able to drag the shutter to speeds between 1/8th to even 1 full second. Of course, this often will require the use of a ND filter- which would open up a whole new can of worms for GP. On the other hand, it is good to see that the camera has the ability to set video shutter speeds. All things being equal, for most video at 30fps, I would generally want to use a 180° shutter angle- 1/60th/second, or occassionally 120th= 90.° The 3+Black has no ability to set video shutter speed, which is unfortunate.

So, they've certainly come a long way, just wishing for a couple of steps further.
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post #30 of 44 Old 10-20-2018, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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The goal of the new line of GoPro's is to continue in the direction of an action camera for the masses. Unfortunately for GoPro is the smart phone is quickly exceeding their capability in the Hero 5-7.

Another interest of mine is the ability to shoot high quality video and sound in stealth mode. I have a pair of eye glasses that shoots 1080p, mono audio.

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