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post #1 of 32 Old 01-21-2019, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Oculus Rift - Wow

I've used my phone with a 3D headset and was never impressed with it. Too confining, too pixelated and hard to watch. Well, last night I had a chance to look through an Oculus Rift headset driven off a PC and was blown away. Image is still pixelated, but you really can get into the VR space inside them. I watched a demo, and in one clip I was standing high up on a platform and could look all around me and walk to the edge and look down and it was like being there-really makes you think about taking that next big step. In another clip, a huge dinosaur came running toward me and spit at me--again very real. If the room you are in is big enough, you can even walk around in the scene. Another clip had me sitting on a bed in a small bedroom, being spooked by a ghoul that came out of the closet and crawled around and finally attacked. I definitely let out a,"eeeyow!"

The field of view was impressive, side to side, up and down. I actually felt like I was in the environment. The Rift also has hand controls that let you reach out and grab objects, etc. Others can watch what you see on a 2D monitor. If this is where 3D VR is going, then it really has a chance. The one drawback is the headset is heavy and requires some adjustment for getting the right focus, and the image is still somewhat pixelated, but that should improve in years to come. The field of view is what makes this impressive and the feeling of being there. You do need a good gaming level PC to make this work properly, though.

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post #2 of 32 Old 01-21-2019, 04:00 PM
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If you were impressed with Oculus Rift, you'd be blown away with the PiMax 8K 170° FOV. It is lighter on the head than the Oculus and Vive and it has 2 4K panels for impressive 8K viewing. The cost is similar to the Vive Pro. They just started to deliver to the preorders now so by this summer, when it is in my budget, I'll be ready and they should be on the open market. There are some excellent videos on YT now that review the PiMax. While these are mostly designed for gamers, the 8K is ideal for us 3D video enthusiasts. But like you said the gamers need a really powerful GPU to drive the PiMax for 90frame rate. Fortunately, I'm set up for that part now with the GTX 1080 Ti.

This guy does an excellent in depth review:
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post #3 of 32 Old 01-23-2019, 10:56 AM
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Occulus is nice, but I get sick in about 5-15 minutes of use. Same with PS VR. So I guess VR isn't there yet, at least not for me.
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post #4 of 32 Old 01-23-2019, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
Occulus is nice, but I get sick in about 5-15 minutes of use. Same with PS VR. So I guess VR isn't there yet, at least not for me.
Probably not. Technology is still in early stages. I recall my grandfather claimed my parent's new color TV would make him sick and we would have to adjust it so it was Black and White to make him happy.

What can make many people feel vertigo is standing up while in the VR world. Easier to sit in a swivel chair so you don't lose your sense of balance.

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post #5 of 32 Old 01-23-2019, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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My son told me he was motion sick for two days after playing one game, but only because it was almost too real for the mind to comprehend with lots and lots of motion. But, other than that experience, he loves it. It's an adjustment that a lot of people are going to be able to handle, I think. It's a matter of taking it slow and getting used to it. I've tried it, and it really is more of a real feeling, than I ever thought it would/could be. Your mind has fears about heights and lack of control in the real world that get transferred into this unreal world, and that has a devastating effect on you, until you get used to it, of course. Having wider-angle glasses, so your peripheral vision gets involved, is the answer, and the current Oculus Rift does a reasonable job of including your peripheral senses.
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post #6 of 32 Old 01-29-2019, 01:02 PM
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After much consideration and looking as dozen reviews I decided the Pimax 8K has too many problems and decided to go ahead and order the Oculus Rift.

The two biggest issues I discovered with the Pimax 8K is the lenses that give you the wide field of view. These make the images out of focus in the peripheral extremes so some reviewer chose to narrow the FOV. I ask why pay for wide FOV if you are going to chop it off to that of the Oculus and VIVE?

The second problem is the delivery is too backordered, so much so that they are still trying to fulfill the Kick starter orders. If I prepay to get on the list it might be next summer before I get it.


So since I did test the Oculus Rift on Premiere Pro at NAB I know what I am getting. Plus it should arrive here today and the price is 1/3 of the Pimax 8K.

8K sounds nice on paper but actual video through the HMD was disappointing. I may need to wait for generation 2 or 3 before I go for the 9K HMD. Besides, Premiere Pro is Oculus Rift ready, just plug it in and set the preferences to channel the preview monitor to the HMD. This will allow me to see my 3D 360 VR the way it was meant to be seen for more accurate editing. No more anaglyph on a flat screen.

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post #7 of 32 Old 01-30-2019, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Don, I'm looking forward to your experience with Oculus Rift. The price is reasonable now too.
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post #8 of 32 Old 02-02-2019, 01:16 PM
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Yes I got it for $350 less Amazon Prime discounts.

The first problem I had was getting the Rift to play consistently as it was intermittently blacking out. After quite a bit research I came up empty as to why and was beginning to believe I had a defective HMD. But then I realized there was one more thing to test. I removed my Monitor #2 from the only HDMI on the GTX1080Ti GPU and installed it there. Then I reconnected the 3D Monitor to Display Port #3 with an adapter that I had. Problem solved! Don't know why the adapter didn't work because it was the latest V1.4 and blessed by Oculus support.

Next I spent some time setting up the sensors and that was a bit of a challenge but got two calibrated.

I spent the remaining part of the day, just exploring with the games offered for free and was just blown away at the quality of the 3D and the response. It was a little tricky getting the audio right but now I have it so it is a familiar switch from the Rift headphones which sound great in my old ears and the 5.1 speaker system for general computer play. It is a bit of a learning curve with the had controls and where everything is and how to work it all but I'm up to speed on that now.

Next I was eager to get it working in Premiere Pro to view editing. Basic editing will still be done on the two desktop monitors but when I get into timeline review and minor adjustments, the Oculus Rift will be a tremendous time savor. It's hard to describe the look of the process but basically your 360 3D display is the entire inside of the spherical world that you are in. You also have your two monitor screens suspended in front of you. One is the Premiere editor, the second is the Monitor #2 mirrored in VR for the mouse navigational view. So when I make a change toi the timeline I can review each way to watch the program without having to render a preview version and then watch that file after copying it to an SD card to see in the stand alone HMD. Now it's all immediate. Their is no lag. Plus when editing ambisonic sound that also is instant and tweaks to the sound placement are fast and easy now.

To make all this happen was not simple as Oculus Rift is only supported after two additional apps are loaded. The first one is, of course the Oculus app. Next I had to download and install and calibrate SteamVR. Had to set up another account for that. This gets your Premiere Pro recognized in Oculus for display. But to display the 360 VR world in 3D I had to download and install yet a 3rd app called Skybox 360 3D VR player. That's what projects your program to the virtual world from the Premiere timeline. I also use this to project my productions already completed and resident on the hard drive.

Problems to work out yet-
I haven't tested You Tube VR content nor Facebook yet, but Skybox has all the 3D options for 360 and 180 VR plus the special configuration to display You Tube and Facebook VR content. Mostly this will be geometry correction. But Facebook is ahead of the game now as they also have Augmented Reality content and you can interact with the videos like a game with the hand controls.

Premiere Pro doesn't seem to support VR180 yet as when the timeline is set up with VR180 content, the immersive video gets grayed out and your video doesn't play except on the flat screen monitors either virtual or real monitors. There is no projection to the sphere. That may be something they will fix in an update. However, I was able to play a finished VR180 3D project with Skybox Player to the sphere.


The system does require USB3.0 and for everything to work with no lag I was warned to connect each of the two controllers and the HMD to separate USB 3.0 busses. Fortunately I have 4 USB 3.0 busses in my system. So that was nice.
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post #9 of 32 Old 02-02-2019, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Don, I was blown away by the prospects of creating a 360 degree environment also. With the right camera this could be an out-of-body experience with home-grown 3D. I don't have the $$ to invest in finding this out...so, I await your hands-on experience .
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post #10 of 32 Old 02-03-2019, 11:27 AM
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Don is really going to be the go-to guy in our little group for all things VR. Glad he has the patience and enthusiasm to work out the many issues. I'm hoping that someday if will be as easy as just plugging in something like a flash drive directly into the headset to make it all work. That's when I'll jump on board! I wouldn't be surprised if that happens in the next 5 years- or less.
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post #11 of 32 Old 02-03-2019, 06:29 PM
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Oculus Go is $199 and that's pretty much how that works. The Rift is much more robust for gaming and use in video editing. The new Quest is a combination of the two, eliminating the cable to the computer and the powerful computer. The Quest is mostly for gamers who don't want to spend for a powerful computer. I don't think it is shipping yet. For me the Rift is what I needed to be able to use with video editing. It will be obsolete when the higher resolution and wider FOV is readily available.

Currently YouTube is a real problem with multiple format publishing. I'm on my 6th upload experimenting with the meta data.

Barry, I added the insta360 OneX in UW housing to my gopro 3D housing and did a video of it shot in 3D 180VR. The underwater content is 2D 360 VR. The video plays perfectly in the oculus rift, but so far totally FUBAR on YT. While adobe Premiere Pro latest version can now handle multiple formats in VR on the timeline and render it, YT is a mess. It only works well when the entire movie is one format. eg. 3D 360 is TB, 3D180 is SBS, then we have 2D 360 which is full frame in my timeline. YouTube gets all confused with that.

In the virtual world of editing, you can post virtual monitors in front of you a virtual; keyboard, and you use Oculus touch devices that resemble your hands in an avatar. Then you start editing. While you see 2D rendition of your project on the virtual monitors, the VR output is painted on the inside of your virtual world sphere including 3D objects you can place and avoid collisions in the space. If one of the monitors is in the way, you reach out and push it out of the way. I'm still a little awkward with it but learning is fast once you know the location of things. What I find most interesting is being able to see the result of my edits immediately in real time in the virtual world. But it is a little weird to watch yourself talking to you that looks more realistic than looking in a mirror.
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post #12 of 32 Old 02-04-2019, 08:27 PM
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Just wondering- since I prefer simplicity- would it be possible to play a 3D 16:9 sbs h.264 .mp4 file from the HDMI of a PC graphic card to the HDMI on an Oculus without having to do any other serious tinkering or calibration? I'm not concerned
with 360 at this point but would be interested to just watch decent 16:9 3D from a headset.
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post #13 of 32 Old 02-04-2019, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry C View Post
Just wondering- since I prefer simplicity- would it be possible to play a 3D 16:9 sbs h.264 .mp4 file from the HDMI of a PC graphic card to the HDMI on an Oculus without having to do any other serious tinkering or calibration? I'm not concerned
with 360 at this point but would be interested to just watch decent 16:9 3D from a headset.
Yes! While reviewing an editor timeline in 3D VR 360 and 180 can only be done in Premiere Pro because it has the drivers for the Vive and Rift. You can also view the rendered MP4 file in SBS or TB to 3D in a VR world theater audience seat. The cool thing is that the perspective of the theater virtual screen can be sized. So it can be made to appear in your HMD vision to be like sitting in front of an outdoor theater screen or, as small as a 55" panel TV. The size is continuously variable. All it requires is you download and install the Skybox viewer which is free. If the MP4 is a VR meta data injected file then it does not activate the theater screen, instead it puts you in the virtual world that you created with your VR camera. It looks so real it actually is rather creepy.

As for simplicity- We're not there yet but Oculus is working on that. The Rift is the original and requires the most involved setup. Basically you need a gaming level computer, ie. a strong GPU with two video ports and one to be HDMI, and at least 2 USB 3.0 ports plus a USB 2.0 port. The faster the computer the smoother your HMD will work. I understand there is a test app on the Oculus web site you can check your system out and it will determine if your computer will work.
You have to connect two IR sensors that are positioned around your room to detect your two hand controllers. Calibration is guided and takes a couple minutes.

The Oculus Go is not connected to a computer so it has to be charged up and has it's own processor. I believe it has one simple control which limits gaming and you can't play from the timeline.

Both of these units use twin panels so the resolution appears higher than my older HMD with a single panel and even higher than my Sony with the 4K screen. I have no problem reading small text in the web browser.

Soon, Oculus is releasing the Quest which is the new generation of the HMD which will be wireless like the Go, but have the gaming capability of a low end gaming computer. It also will have a slightly higher resolution set of panels than the Rift. It is just $50 more than the Rift.

IMO- while the Rift is great for my edit room as it works with video editing, I have been considering getting the Quest later this year for my Home theater room if the reviews are good. It will save me the cost of a gaming computer for that room and eliminate the sensors, yet give me VR capability for the home theater. I think it comes with 64GB of storage for apps and content which should handle a good collection of my library. The Quest also maps the room furniture too so your screen appears in your own room. It uses 3D cameras on the HMD to do that. The Rift also maps your space but that appears only as a wire fence that pops up if you are about to come in contact with furniture or a wall as you move around. Mapping your room is a second calibration that you should do and doesn't take long either. Took me about 30 seconds, but I think the Quest takes a little longer as the furniture is more complex than a simple wire cage.

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post #14 of 32 Old 02-05-2019, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Don--The Quest sounds like a clear winner. I like the idea of seeing my 3D stuff through this thing if possible. Thanks for being the beta tester for all of us here!
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post #15 of 32 Old 02-05-2019, 07:54 AM
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3DBob-

Well as long as you aren't interested in using it for editing or need to store more than 64GB then the Quest is probably the winner. Like I said, I am looking at mthe Quest for my Home theater just to have 360 VR capability in that room. I have no regrets now with the Rift. But, I have not seen or tested the Quest and I want to go check it out in person before deciding to buy 1st gen product or wait. Lots of unknowns.

Recall a few weeks ago I was excited about wide FOV and 8K of the PiMax. Looked promising on paper specs. But the reviews are beginning to surface now and many are not so great due to fails in: Flat focus, Chromatic aberrations; reduced field of view to achieve frame rate, poor black levels and washed out color; and compatibility issues with my main purpose.

While the Rift is a first generation model it has several years now of system improvements to make the installation and use pretty much bug free.

Two things I discovered (so far)-
1. Contrary to what some say, you cannot use 3rd party HDMI to DP adapter as the HDMI is special to Oculus Rift according to Oculus tech people feedback. Therefore the Rift cannot be plugged into a Blu Ray player as it only works with certain GPU's products.

2. The reports that you need a third sensor to get 360° hand controllers or sometimes the virtual hands can freeze if you block the IR path to the sensor. The package only comes with 2 sensors. A third is $59 plus you probably will need a special USB 3.0 extension cable to reach it. I will probably add a third sensor soon.


Another thing to keep in mind, these HMD's are not really good if you wear glasses for focus. You may need to get the special Rx lens kit. Best to go try one at a store before you buy to see if your eyes are compatible. My wife needs her glasses for our 3D theater so I made special active clip-on frames for her Rx glasses. ripped off the parts from clip-on passive 3D filters and fastened it to a pair of active 3D glasses with the arms removed.

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post #16 of 32 Old 02-06-2019, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Just talked to my son again who uses the Rift with a top-of-the-line gaming computer. He just bought the latest graphics card as some of the newer games demand it, which makes me think the Quest will be limited to a subset of the games out now. He also said, that he's played some games for over an hour, and when he quits he has to reboot his mind into the real world as you begin to accept the VR world as the real world after a while. That has him a little shaken. He's wondering what it will be like in a couple of years, when it gets very real inside that world, like the holodeck on Star Trek.
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post #17 of 32 Old 02-06-2019, 03:08 PM
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Question

Can a individual watch movies on rift?

Or they have to be 3d movies?

And when you talk about video editing, what exactly/how Ridt helps? In which editing software can u use them

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk
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post #18 of 32 Old 02-06-2019, 10:59 PM
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Bob- have him watch the Matrix Movies. That will answer his question.

Gabre-
Can a individual watch movies on rift?

Absolutely! I was going through some of my personal videos on my hard drives and ran across an old VHS video I produced in 1988 of my Cave Diving exploration into the far reaches of Devil's Eye Cave. I have been disappointed at how this old VHS movie looks in my home theater and on a panel HDTV but was pleasantly surprised how it was automatically done in the rift using Skybox player app. While 360VR 3D projected automatically in the sphere like you are there in the scene and can wander around, the old 2D VHS movie opened up a large empty theater where I was sitting in the center row and there was a huge screen in front. When I looked behind me there was the hole in the back wall with a flickering light of a projector. Then my video started and it looked really good. I ended up watching the full 2 hour trip where I see my dive team exploring the underwater cave. Very nostalgic for me since I have long since retired. I think the trick is more about getting a movie on Blu ray into the Rift due to copy protection than watching in the virtual theater. Of course you can stream Netflix and similar which also works.

As for video edting- I have already described that in this thread.
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post #19 of 32 Old 02-15-2019, 08:33 AM
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Completed testing of 4K60fps 3D in the Oculus Rift. Really great detail in the image. The virtual screen was virtual IMAX theater size. The video was shot with two GoPro Hero 7's in side by side frame. I recorded using Protunes raw flat and added proper color and white balance in post in Edius using a Macbeth color chart.

The detail in the image was amazing. I could see the weave of the fabric in my shirt.

The frame sync was better than the test with 4K30 fps but nowhere near as good as with the GoPro Hero 3+Blacks with the sync cable. The left to right panning offered a little mismatch in fast movement but near perfection when I slowed the panning down like is spec with 24 fps film.

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post #20 of 32 Old 02-15-2019, 08:44 AM
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Exciting results! Thanks for spending your time doing this. If the Quest is able to achieve the same kind of results, I'm going to be seriously tempted. Of course, I'll be upscaling 2.7K 29.97p. However, I might even upscale it to 4K 60. Converting 30p to 60p, usually works extremely well. For that matter, I suspect that native 2.7K might very well be indistinguishable from 4K, so no upscale would be necessary.
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post #21 of 32 Old 02-15-2019, 10:50 AM
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I already tested the upscale of 2.7K raw flat 30fps to 4K30 and compared to shooting 4K15 native with the Hero 3+Blacks is was very soft, even on my 1080P LG . I didn't bother testing on the 4K Projector. The image quality of the Hero's 6 and 7 in 4K is superior to the 4K15 in the 3+Blacks as well. In this case I had to evaluate a still image because the 15fps was distracting. There is no single solution that is perfect. Too bad GoPro doesn't give us a sync back like the Hero 2 and 3 had. I wonder why.

I also tried to enhance the quality of the 2.7K to 4K in the Hero 3+B using Edius' sharpen up to 35 and that helped a little but it is not in the same league as the Hero 7Black and 6 Black.


The 7 also shoots 4K at 120fps and 240fps and I was thinking of testing that out for even better frame sync then render the video to 60 fps in the export to prevent slomo. The 6 is limited to 4K60 so to run this experiment I would need to buy another 7. Right now I want to see if there will be a hero 8 that offers sync (doubtful) but I don't want to spend the bucks for that right now. The 6 +7 works very well at 60 fps with slow pans. The frame I made is near perfect alignment and the cameras match very well as the stereoscopic adjustment only corrects a tiny adjustment. Lucky I guess. I hope the underwater bench is as good.

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post #22 of 32 Old 02-15-2019, 10:55 AM
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On the Oculus Quest- I saw a report by one of the beta testers claiming the processing in the Quest is about 1/10 that of a Rift driven by the GTX1080Ti GPU. So it will not perform to 90fps many claimn is the goal for gaming. Mine hits 88-89 on most applications. Reports on the Quest is 45-50 plus some lag in the hand controls. I'm afraid the first gen Quest may not deliver what people are dreaming it will. Like my rude awakening on the Pimax 8K.

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post #23 of 32 Old 02-15-2019, 11:55 AM
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LAst week I tried The Void VR attraction at Disney Springs
https://www.thevoid.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Void_(virtual_reality)

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The Void's mixed reality experiences utilize aspects of virtual reality, haptic feedback, and other physical effects; users wear a helmet with a head-mounted display, noise cancelling headphones and a hand tracking sensor, and a haptic suit containing 22 vibrators and a computer to power the headset. The system is designed to allow its users to freely walk through and explore a virtual world; in reality, the user is confined to a "stage" equipped with ceiling-mounted motion tracking cameras to read the user's movements. To provide physical feedback, the "stage" contains foam walls, special effects equipment such as fans, mist machines, and heat lamps, as well as props representing items such as guns and torches; all of these physical elements correspond with elements within the virtual world seen through the headset, increasing the illusion of immersion.[1]
Did the Star Wars VR game/story.

They built a multiroom/level warehouse with walls/ramps/etc to match what you see in the Star Wars VR world. Just bare black walls/tables, etc, but the VR world texture maps onto them and matched positions.

We played as a group of 4. When you looked at other players, they looked like storm troopers, as well as when I looked down at myself.

Coolest thing, if you raised your hand, it was wearing storm trooper gear/gloves, and your fingers and hand motions were mirrored in the VR world in the headset, i.e. the headset had motion tracking - for the rest of your body- I was not wearing anything but the full headset helmet (video+audio) and a force feedback haptic vest to feel blaster shots from the bad guys, ie no gloves

Still some ways to go and some glitches and mismatches between body position/real world components and VR counterparts, but as close to a real holodeck to date that you and I could partake in.

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post #24 of 32 Old 02-15-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
I already tested the upscale of 2.7K raw flat 30fps to 4K30 and compared to shooting 4K15 native with the Hero 3+Blacks is was very soft, even on my 1080P LG . I didn't bother testing on the 4K Projector. The image quality of the Hero's 6 and 7 in 4K is superior to the 4K15 in the 3+Blacks as well. In this case I had to evaluate a still image because the 15fps was distracting. There is no single solution that is perfect. Too bad GoPro doesn't give us a sync back like the Hero 2 and 3 had. I wonder why.

I also tried to enhance the quality of the 2.7K to 4K in the Hero 3+B using Edius' sharpen up to 35 and that helped a little but it is not in the same league as the Hero 7Black and 6 Black.
Don, I know you have a very high regard for the GP 6 & 7 and consider the IQ to be a quantum leap above the 3+. I'm wondering how you are rendering your test clips. What bitrate are you using? For 4K upscale from 2.7K, I generally use VBR at 60-80mbps, and use h.264 .mp4.

After reading your post, I was really scratching my head over your results showing both the original 2.7K & 4K 3+ upscale to be soft in comparison to the 7 content. I have never found any of my 3+ content to be the least bit soft, or any upscaled content either. Just for the hell of it, I just went downstairs and looked at some 2.7K 3+ Black clips- shot with Protunes but not even raw or flat taken in 2015 on a fishing/camping trip for my mother's 95th birthday. I put the unedited clips on my 32" 4K monitor, and as expected, they are razor sharp. No sharpening would need to be applied. I then did a quick upscale to 4K and same result. In fact, I would go as far to say that they were as sharp as what I would expect to get shooting in 4K with my Sony A7S2 using a $1,000. lens, if shooting the same subject matter. Of course, the Sony would have some other advantages, but sharpness wouldn't be better.

So, I'm wondering why we are seeing such a huge difference. I've looked at content from the GP 6 & 7 on YouTube, admittedly not the best way to compare, and I really can't see any significant differences of any kind. Of course 4K 60p, etc, would be an advantage, but far superior IQ, I just don't see it and can say with absolute certainty, that it wouldn't be possible to improve on the sharpness which I am seeing. I should also point out that all my content is at medium FOV so I can't state what might happen at wide FOV.

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post #25 of 32 Old 02-15-2019, 02:41 PM
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Barry- you've been around long enough to know that the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. You Tube is a weak link as they compress all video even 4K to 60Mbs or less. To answer your question I render all 5.7K at 150Mbs and 4K30 at 120Mbs. The 2.7K30 I also jacked up the bitrate to 120Mbs. 1080P30 is really bad at 7Mbs on You Tube but I usually render it to 30Mbs. I used CBR as the video was pretty busy so no real savings with VBR. That usually helps on video with lots of solid colors and black background. I recall UHD disks are standarized at 128Mbs.

Your 4K monitor should be a strong link for 4K visual until you said 32". That makes it a weak link because 4K was said by most mfg's to require a minimum of 55" or it doesn't look better than 1080P. There were several blind test studies done years ago by Sony and Samsung to come to that conclusion.

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For 4K upscale from 2,7K, I generally use VBR at 60-80K, and use h.264 .mp4
I think you meant 60-80Mbs, not kilo or K.


I have no problem with upscaling as it can reduce screen door effect on large projection screens. But even the Sony patented process of pixel interpolation ( their "Reality Creation" upscaling) isn't the same as native 4K content.

The weak part of the GoPro 7 Black is the lens distortion, not the pixel density. To shoot 4K on the Hero7 I must use wide framing or super wide. That curves the sides but It's been my experience that effect goes away underwater because it uses a flat port.
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post #26 of 32 Old 02-15-2019, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
Barry- you've been around long enough to know that the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. You Tube is a weak link as they compress all video even 4K to 60Mbs or less. To answer your question I render all 5.7K at 150Mbs and 4K30 at 120Mbs. The 2.7K30 I also jacked up the bitrate to 120Mbs. 1080P30 is really bad at 7Mbs on You Tube but I usually render it to 30Mbs. I used CBR as the video was pretty busy so no real savings with VBR. That usually helps on video with lots of solid colors and black background. I recall UHD disks are standarized at 128Mbs.

Your 4K monitor should be a strong link for 4K visual until you said 32". That makes it a weak link because 4K was said by most mfg's to require a minimum of 55" or it doesn't look better than 1080P. There were several blind test studies done years ago by Sony and Samsung to come to that conclusion.

I think you meant 60-80Mbs, not kilo or K.


I have no problem with upscaling as it can reduce screen door effect on large projection screens. But even the Sony patented process of pixel interpolation ( their "Reality Creation" upscaling) isn't the same as native 4K content.

The weak part of the GoPro 7 Black is the lens distortion, not the pixel density. To shoot 4K on the Hero7 I must use wide framing or super wide. That curves the sides but It's been my experience that effect goes away underwater because it uses a flat port.
First off, I think you will be happy shooting wide underwater with the flat port. The results are quite good, distortion virtually nonexistant!

I've got to disagree with you about the effectiveness of a 4K 32" monitor. The 55" minimum would be relevant for home theater viewing at normal viewing distances. And, I would agree. But, I'm only approx 18" away, at times and that's a major difference. So, no weak link here. Furthermore, when I downscale well shot and produced 3+ 2.7K content to 1080 and view it on my 132" screen, its also very sharp. So, again, I'm not sure why we are seeing so much of a disparity from our 3+ content.

PS: Totally agree that YouTube is not a good way to do detailed comparisons. Also, I suppose that there could be an issue with you pushing up your bitrate so high above native. My Sony is 100mbps, the GP at 2.7K is 45. That's why, I'll usually stick to about 60 VBR for GP 2.7K 4K upscale. Additionally, YouTube wants 4K uploads at that bitrate.

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post #27 of 32 Old 02-16-2019, 02:08 PM
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But, I'm only approx 18" away, at times and that's a major difference.
Yes! That is a major difference. If your 18" vision is perfect you probably see the screen door effect. My main screen is 2 ft away and my second 3D monitor is 4 ft away but these are only 1080P 27" monitors. My vision is not perfect but I had reading classes made for viewing 2' to 6 ft perfect focus. I have another pair that are normal reading glasses that are for 9" to 2 ft perfect focus. I don't need Rx glasses for distance. The Rift is pretty sharp focus and I can see the screendoor effect but it seems small enough that I don't mind it. The visual in the Rift is such that I can make the viewing screen for traditional 3D small like a 27" computer screen or as large as the visual of the largest IMAX theater. In VR mode you don't size the screen as everything looks natural size in the center FOV, to the peripheral vision the VR images close up get a little distorted. This is a problem is wider FOV like the Pimax HMD because the distortion in the peripheral is more exaggerated. Everything is a trade-off.


Quote:
I'll usually stick to about 60 VBR for GP 2.7K 4K upscale. Additionally, YouTube wants 4K uploads at that bitrate.
Somewhere there is a paper YT published with those specs. I recall those numbers too and I think 1080Px1920 was 25Mbs. But what they do is compress it further. I haven't tested this but I believe if you send a bigger file than what they want it just takes longer to process the various streaming resolutions. YT prioritizes frame rate and no buffering over resolution.


Quote:
Furthermore, when I downscale well shot and produced 3+ 2.7K content to 1080 and view it on my 132" screen, its also very sharp. So, again, I'm not sure why we are seeing so much of a disparity from our 3+ content.
I think it is because when you view 1080P content regardless of how it is originated it is still 1080 x 1920 pixels. And viewed on a 1080 x 1920 projector or a 1080 x 1920 TV is can offer no better pixels than 1080 x 1920. So you look at your monitor and the best is can get is what it's native is and you assume that it's "very sharp." That it may be, but resolution is not sharpness. Resolution is the ability to see detail in the image. If I want to evaluate sharpness I look for edge definition like small white text on solid color background. Sharpness is also a function of the pixel pattern in the screen. If I want to see resolution I look for tiny bits of detail in the image such as in my tests the fabric weave of my clothing, blades of grass in the distance, etc. Of course focus is important. Color is another and here we look for banding in the gradient of the blue sky for example. All these components have to be balanced to make a good picture. But, your projector cannot display a higher resolution than it's native pixel density. My projector uses a 4096 x 2160 panels so it can display a 1080 x 1920 resolution better than a panel designed for 1080 x 1920. However, it cannot offer better resolution on an 8K source than a 4096 x 2160 source. Note: while the Sony uses a full 4K panel, to maintain AR compatibility, I set the side masks in the menu to 3840 x 2160 which is UHD standard.

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post #28 of 32 Old 02-16-2019, 02:36 PM
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As usual, you raise some good points. When editing, I do wear reading glasses and judge how sharp/detailed an image is by first looking at the overall image, and then trying to find an element which has something like fabric, tree bark, highly textured rock- granite forinstance, or some other element with detailed texture. This is probably not much different than what you do, I get the feeling. As far as seeing any screendoor effect on the monitor while looking at full screen 2.7K or upscaled to 4K, I'm really not seeing any. Perhaps if I got even closer than 18" and did some serious pixal perping, I would. But, I don't see that as something which in a real world viewing sense would be worth bothering with. However, you certainly have experience with head mounted gear which I don't so maybe there, it would be a significant issue. I'll rely on your judgement as to how significant before I ever decide to buy one of these.

Again, my main interest is viewing my own content, an occassional, movie, or stuff done by folks like you. And like you, I have no interest at all in gaming- of course, I may have to rip the damn thing off my son's head, as he's a devout gamer- typical 19 year old kid!
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post #29 of 32 Old 02-16-2019, 11:32 PM
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Barry C-

Well, I'm glad you are looking in the right direction but just to be sure let be state that the screen door effect is a function of the display, not the resolution of the file being displayed. With my two close up glasses I described I can see the individual pixels and the screen door grid although very tiny on my 27" 1080 monitors. I cannot see any on my 92" screen projector even up close unless I put those glasses on and then at 18" away from the 92" wide screen I can see the individual pixels. At normal viewing seating, 8-10 feet away, no.

With HMD, in those forums there is an ongoing debate / fight, of resolution vs. FOV vs fps where gamers have the loudest voice. I'll bet Ryan could explain that debate to you. To me, resolution of the panel is more important as long as the fps is 60+fps. Gamers find 90 the holy grail. FOV sounds great but the VR world sphere tends to distort too much in the peripheral due to the state of the art optics ( remember GoPro lenses and fisheye problem. I find the Rift FOV quite adequate. BTW- I have little interest in games for the sake of competition but I do get a kick out of experiencing the advancement in that technology so I have downloaded all the free stuff available. As a former combat medic, I was well qualified with small arms and while I don't particularly find combat games entertaining having survived several CQB experiences, I do enjoy the arcade games for a few minutes and then move on.

I lost track of time and still thought Ryan was in HS. My daughter moved away 300 miles from home after graduation. Moved in with 3 other girls in Boca Raton. Only lasted a year and she transferred back to Jacksonville to finish college. She bought a condo at the beach and enjoyed living by herself. The 4 girls in the apartment in Boca taught her a lesson. After college she got married and together they sold the Condo a year later and had enough for a down payment on a house. She only lived at home after HS for two months.

Have you been keeping track of the used 3D GoPro Hero3 3D stuff lately. I decided to pick up a backup set and purchases two more cameras housing. I had a problem with what I did with the first twin case mounting everything to the case back. When I added the 360 camera and it's globe case it was too much and simulating pushing it around the pool it cracked the GoPro case. The new one will have all the features but now I am using a bench or tray base so no stress on the cases now. Picked up a new case in the box for $30 on ebay. The auctions are the cheap way to go.

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post #30 of 32 Old 02-17-2019, 10:18 AM
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Don,
As for Ryan, time really flies. He graduated from high school last year and is now in his first year at UNR which, fortunately, is only a mile down the hill from us. He wants to be an engineer- possibly electrical. So, he's still living at home and will probably be for the next several years, which is just fine with me. He and I are very close and I'm going to be a bad empty nester when he does move out someday.

As for the 3D Gopro thing, since I seem to drown at least one camera every year due to leaky housings- the drowned one is the one which sits lower in the housing- last year I purchased a couple of new housings from B&H, who had them discounted by 50%. I also have another new one which I got from Gopro who replaced one of the leaky ones at no charge. Additionally, when I came back from the last Cozumel trip, over the next couple of months, I bought 4 more 3+ Blacks off Ebay. Good ones seem to be in the $80-90 range. So, I figure I've got enough of all these things to keep me going for awhile. I suspect that good used 3+ Blacks will be increasingly harder to come by, as time passes.
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