3D Autostereoscopic Displays - Is That the Answer? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 32 Old 02-28-2010, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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One of the other 3D oriented threads has had quite a discussion of so-called "Glassless 3D Displays". The point was brought up that this topic deserves a thread of it's own. So here it is.

Here is one of the links from that thread (thanks Lee) that lists a lot of the "players" in this area.

http://www.3dcgi.com/cooltech/displa...e-displays.htm

Sounds great - BUT??????

What are your thoughts.

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post #2 of 32 Old 02-28-2010, 04:09 PM
 
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An emerging technology that is going to takes years to perfect.

There are so many different issues associated with Auto 3D:

1. Resolution of the images you see. Today - what was shown at CES 2010 - a bit better than DVD resolution.

2. Being able to watch either 2D or 3D like todays 3DTVs will allow.

3. The number of views needed so that moving your head will not collapse the 3D affect. Most are in the 9 view range (Stereoscopic 3D has 2 views = L & R) - it isn't enough. This coming week, an Asian company will show a 27" Auto 3D display with 64 views at CeBit (Germany) which starts this coming week. I will post whatever they announce in this thread.

4. Cost - frightfully expensive.

PS: Thanks for the mention
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post #3 of 32 Old 02-28-2010, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

2. Being able to watch either 2D or 3D like todays 3DTVs will allow.

The Phillips one could couldn't it?
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Philips' WOWvx allows 2D and 3D viewing on a single display. By detecting the content type, a soft switch makes a seamless transition between the two viewing modes. In 3D mode, each lens in the display bends the light in several directions, generating a 3D image. For displaying 2D content the lens effect can be eliminated by...

http://www.3d4you.eu/images/PDFs/ste...background.pdf
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post #4 of 32 Old 02-28-2010, 09:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

The Phillips one could couldn't it?

http://www.3d4you.eu/images/PDFs/ste...background.pdf

That Auto 3D has been discontinued and Phillips pulled the plug on their Auto 3D R & D.

I see it says it can do both 2D and 3D. Anyone ever see a demo? Most of the current Auto 3D displays don't do both.

The cost of that Auto 3D was $9000. I wouldn't call that a consumer priced product for that size of a display.
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post #5 of 32 Old 02-28-2010, 10:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

I see it says it can do both 2D and 3D. Anyone ever see a demo? Most of the current Auto 3D displays don't do both.

I did at their lab but unfortunately, it was only 3-D. It was pretty nice though from what I recall.
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post #6 of 32 Old 02-28-2010, 10:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I did at their lab but unfortunately, it was only 3-D. It was pretty nice though from what I recall.

Hey Amir!

Did you by chance see their 4K 32 view Auto 3D?
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post #7 of 32 Old 02-28-2010, 11:23 PM
 
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Hey Lee .

No, this was a few years ago...
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post #8 of 32 Old 02-28-2010, 11:47 PM
 
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post #9 of 32 Old 03-01-2010, 01:22 AM
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I was very interested in seeing glasses free 3D at CES. I was sorely disappointed at the results. If you click the link above, one of the manufacturers says it will be used for "signage." In other words, the picture is really sucky, but the effect is just good enough to where you could put a display in a mall and it would get people's attention. The screen is divided into sections using a lenticular lens. The content on the screen is multiple versions of the same subject shot at slightly different angles. Because the subject is repeated, the picture is low rez and if you're not lined up exactly with one of the angles, a blurry mess. However, when you are lined up, it looks OK, and when you walk by it or change you're point of view, the video changes with you--also impressive. Again, it will be just good enough to get peoples' attention for advertising, but nowhere near the way you would want to watch a movie. And of course the big caveat is that it's not compatible with today's HD video standard. I'm convinced that it will be many years before we see glasses free 3D in the home. The above approach could work perhaps if you could start with a 4K resolution picture before dividing up the screen. We all want 3D holographic displays that you could actually walk around someday as well, but again, these technologies are totally incompatible with what we have now.
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post #10 of 32 Old 03-01-2010, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fire407 View Post

And of course the big caveat is that it's not compatible with today's HD video standard. I'm convinced that it will be many years before we see glasses free 3D in the home. The above approach could work perhaps if you could start with a 4K resolution picture before dividing up the screen. We all want 3D holographic displays that you could actually walk around someday as well, but again, these technologies are totally incompatible with what we have now.

It can be converted to the format they use - ie. they can convert 2D to their format or stereoscopic to their format (not necessarily in very good quality but at least it can) or much better - any 3D CGI film if they have access to all the original full 3d (not just stereoscopic) data.
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post #11 of 32 Old 03-01-2010, 09:50 AM
 
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I am posting this link here because although the TV in question was just a protoype and Philips has stopped their R & D on Auto 3D, it does show what could come out in 7 to 10 years (just guessing)

Philips’ 3D HDTV Might Destroy Space-Time Continuum, Wallets

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2008/10/philips-3d-hdtv/
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post #12 of 32 Old 03-01-2010, 05:11 PM
 
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Calibrating Camera and Projector Arrays for Immersive 3D Display

http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Harly...as-EI-2009.pdf
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post #13 of 32 Old 03-01-2010, 05:24 PM
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I produce photographic quality autostereoscopic prints and that requires about 1,000 vertical lines of resolution PER INCH along with twelve 21 megapixel high end cameras to produce the content. Video monitors are going to need at least four times their current resolution to be in the ball park of quality. Of course this only provides for left/right 3D and no vertical information. The cool tech coming is microdot lens material used in conjunction with plenoptic cameras with millions of lenses. This has great potential but perhaps 10 years off. In the meantime, I think shutter glasses or polarized passive glasses are going to dominate and the autosterescopic monitors won't get much traction because they aren't good enough.
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Do a search and find my blog where I go into a lot of detail about 3D multiperspective photography. There is a lot involved in making it work. The display tech is actually the easy part ;^)
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post #14 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 07:33 AM
 
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Nintendo Tips Hand On Plans For 3D DS System

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Tokyo - Nintendo announced here this week that it has developed version of its popular DS handheld game player that supports 3D without the need for special glasses.

The Nintendo 3DS will use two screens and will be backward compatible with current DS and DSi games, the company said here Tuesday.

http://www.twice.com/article/450598-..._DS_System.php

Autostereoscopic 3D!
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post #15 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 09:04 AM
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re: Nintendo DS

In a way it is going to be misleading to people because the DS tech will rely on the user being basically stationary in space in relation to the screen. People will see that and say "why can't they make a big TV out of this technology so we don't need glasses?" but of course it doesn't work for multiple viewers at different angles.

This whole 3D arena is going to be hard to educate the general public on why it can't be done with their existing TVs because when they go to the movies it just looks like a big TV with a blurry picture and they put on some funny sunglasses and voila, you've got 3D!
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post #16 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoEyeVideo View Post

This has great potential but perhaps 10 years off. In the meantime, I think shutter glasses or polarized passive glasses are going to dominate and the autosterescopic monitors won't get much traction because they aren't good enough.

Agree.

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post #17 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 01:09 PM
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Seems like it'll be years and years off. But still, Id be surprised if someone doesnt try to come out with a mainstream solution within a couple years.

You never know what type of conversion processes these companies come up with.
http://gizmodo.com/5441710/toshiba-c...-3d-conversion
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post #18 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 01:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjLancer View Post

Seems like it'll be years and years off. But still, Id be surprised if someone doesnt try to come out with a mainstream solution within a couple years.

You never know what type of conversion processes these companies come up with.
http://gizmodo.com/5441710/toshiba-c...-3d-conversion

Both Samsung and Sony are/will offer that.

Autostereoscopic 3D display present 3D with no glasses

How they work:

http://www.3d-forums.com/autostereos...splays-t1.html
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post #19 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Both Samsung and Sony are/will offer that.

Yeah but like the Toshiba, you still need glasses.

Quote:


Autostereoscopic 3D display present 3D with no glasses

How they work:

http://www.3d-forums.com/autostereos...splays-t1.html

Yes I know, I was talking about the possibility of a an autostereocopic display incorporating processes that convert 2D to 3D, different 3D formats etc.
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post #20 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 01:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjLancer View Post

Yeah but like the Toshiba, you still need glasses.

You lost me - this is a thread on Auto 3D. Why show the Toshiba Cell TV? It isn't an Auto 3D display

Quote:


Yes I know, I was talking about the possibility of a an autostereocopic display incorporating processes that convert 2D to 3D, different 3D formats etc.

LOL - let's see one do 3D properly first. BTW - all the Auto 3D displays are based on 2D to 3D conversion. They all need a PC attached to them to create the multiple views using special software sold by the Auto 3D display manufacturer.
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post #21 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

You lost me - this is a thread on Auto 3D. Why show the Toshiba Cell TV? It isn't an Auto 3D display

I was pointing out the automatic 2d>3d conversion process and whether something like it could be possible with an auto 3d display(in realtime)

Quote:


LOL - let's see one do 3D properly first. BTW - all the Auto 3D displays are based on 2D to 3D conversion. They all need a PC attached to them to create the multiple views using special software sold by the Auto 3D display manufacturer.

Yeah current auto 3d displays. I thought it was pretty obvious I was speculating about the future.
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post #22 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 02:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjLancer View Post

I was pointing out the automatic 2d>3d conversion process and whether something like it could be possible with an auto 3d display(in realtime)

Yeah current auto 3d displays. I thought it was pretty obvious I was speculating about the future.

Not that difficult. Much harder to get the resolution up to where S3D is today, then it is to do 2D to 3D on the fly. Just need BIG buffers and LOTS of processing power.
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post #23 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 02:10 PM
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Well if its 'not that difficult' to reconcile 2D formats to 3D displays then I guess its not an issue then?
Quote:
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There are so many different issues associated with Auto 3D:

2. Being able to watch either 2D or 3D like todays 3DTVs will allow.

Just sayin.
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post #24 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 02:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjLancer View Post

Well if its 'not that difficult' to reconcile 2D formats to 3D displays then I guess its not an issue then?
Just sayin.

Oops! Guess you don't understand. Some Auto 3D displays can't show 2D. It's 3D or nothing.
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post #25 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 02:37 PM
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Oops! Guess you don't understand. Some Auto 3D displays can't show 2D. It's 3D or nothing.

Which is why I brought up the possibility of realtime 2D>3D conversion processes reaching future auto 3d displays:/ ie. solving an issue
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post #26 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 02:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjLancer View Post

Which is why I brought up the possibility of realtime 2D>3D conversion processes reaching future auto 3d displays:/ ie. solving an issue

And what happens if all you want to watch is 2D?

You haven't solved any issue.
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post #27 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

And what happens if all you want to watch is 2D?

You haven't solved any issue.

Youre asking me a question about a made up possibility that I put forth. I obviously dont know what 2D compatible content would look like on a future auto 3D display and whether it would satisfy this theoretical audience of yours. Could it? maybe.

And why would I solve the issue? Im not designing these things.
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post #28 of 32 Old 03-23-2010, 08:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjLancer View Post

Youre asking me a question about a made up possibility that I put forth. I obviously dont know what 2D compatible content would look like on a future auto 3D display and whether it would satisfy this theoretical audience. Could it? maybe.

Here are some of the hurdles that are present currently with Auto 3D displays

1. Not all can present 2D. That means that you don't have a choice - you either watch everything in 3D or nothng at all. You can't turn the 3D off. Those that can are frightfully expensive.

2. Auto 3D is based on multi views. 8, 9, 16, 32 and just recently, 64 was show. One of the disadvantages of Auto 3D is the number of views. The less views - the less places to sit in front of one and see the 3D images. You could be sitting on the couch next to your wife in front of an Auto 3D display - you see the 3D fine - she doesn't. Stereoscopic 3D is 2 views - L & R. So how do you create all those views?

You either need a whole mess of cameras or you need a powerful PC that interpolates what each view should look like (each has to be a little different).

3. Resolution. Todays S3D with glasses offers Full HD per eye. Because you have those multiple views, you are reducing the resolution. The ones they showed at CES 2010 were barely better than DVD resolution and that was with 8 views. Go to 16 and you are looking at VHS resolution.

They are currently being used for signage in public places. They are runing a minute or two clip over and over. You take your desired clip, then with the special software, you create 8 views from a single view (2D).
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post #29 of 32 Old 03-31-2010, 08:26 PM
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I've posted some not so positive remarks about the glasses thing.

This "glassless" 3d will be the big winner for 3d adoption.

just mho
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post #30 of 32 Old 03-31-2010, 08:32 PM
 
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I've posted some not so positive remarks about the glasses thing.

This "glassless" 3d will be the big winner for 3d adoption.

just mho

If they can ever perfect it. Maybe in 10 years.
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