3DXL issue with DLP-Link Glasses - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 311 Old 12-20-2010, 09:02 AM
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I believe that there is a tactic he uses to spread fear and uncertainty about the 3DXL so as to sell his product fix. He has already mentioned it and even had it priced out using the forum as a vehicle before the Mods temporarily suspended him.
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post #242 of 311 Old 12-20-2010, 09:41 AM
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Maybe so.. I feel a little better if he got a time out. I got one for arguing with him.
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post #243 of 311 Old 12-20-2010, 10:09 AM
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Well, I will be getting the 3DXL and I will see if this is actually a significant problem with the sync. I am sure that it is necessary to verify that the correct sync is chosen when starting a new BD or changing source components. I have a Harmony remote that I can program and control the HD66 and get the re-sync down to a one button push on the Harmony. How difficult is possibly a one button push at the beginning of a session?

Others here have tested with their DLP link display (non-checkerboard) or projector and reported it is not a significant issue.
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post #244 of 311 Old 12-20-2010, 10:59 AM
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I myself can confirm DLP-LINK runs great for me on the projector.

I am pre-ordered as well, I can't wait to get my hands on the 3D-XL.
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post #245 of 311 Old 12-20-2010, 11:25 AM
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While the issue posts have been informative I'm not sure there is enough there for me to keep me from buying the 3d-xl. The fact the unit doesn't up convert so to speak non 3d programming to 3d is more of an issue and still not the be all end all. From what I keep reading it sounds like DLP is the absolute way to go other than the sync issue which is more than correctable especially for those with Harmony One (myself) or similar remotes. Hell, now glasses are coming out which you only have to hit one button to reverse the problem although that could be an issue with multiple users given some may not know they are out of sync etc. In any event look very much forward to the release of this box and seeing how it works!

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post #246 of 311 Old 12-20-2010, 01:47 PM
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DLP link tells all glases which lens to display so with multiple users either all are out sync or all in in synce unless some user have viewsonic glases whcih are capable of reversing the sync signal they are receiving.
The box outputs 720p/60 frame sequential content to the 3D DLP PJs for which it is compatible unless you have a dual projector set up then you can send 1080p left eye to one PJ and 1080p right right to the other PJ.
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post #247 of 311 Old 12-20-2010, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

DLP link tells all glases which lens to display so with multiple users either all are out sync or all in in synce unless some user have viewsonic glases whcih are capable of reversing the sync signal they are receiving.

Yeah, that's the situation I was getting at. If some had reversed theres and others hadn't it could be an issue or if you were viewing with some having these selectable glasses and others not if you reversed the sync they'd have to follow suit etc. Again, small issue but an issue.

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post #248 of 311 Old 12-21-2010, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

You can confirm it by playing a movie that has side by side configuration and contains left image with text "left image" and right image with text "right image".
By pausing the movie you can look trough your DLP-Link shutters glasses with right eye closed and see if the image says "left eye" Then do the pay /pause sequence several times and see if you always get "left image" text when your right eye is closed.
If you do not know how to create such movie then please let me know and I will create one for you and post a link to it.

Mathew Orman

Link to quote.

Link to test files
16:9 aspect ratio, Side by Side Left side first, 1080p resolution - squished

Also these test files are good to test for ghosting.

While playing the test files close one eye and see if the text is doubled.
Ghosting is visible if "Right Image" and "Left Image" text is being shown at the same time with one eye closed.
You wear your 3d active polarized or passive polarized glasses for this test.


There is new, and then you are new.
This is a moral of the bears and their cereal.
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post #249 of 311 Old 12-21-2010, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Dear Mathew,

Thank you for your interest in DLP(r) Link.

You are correct that DLP 3D Ready projectors do not support the DLP HDTV
checkerboard input as the display devices used in our projectors and our
HDTVs are made differently. The DLP 3D Ready projectors do, however,
support 120 Hz or 60 Hz inputs as well as 120 Hz output frequencies.

The native format for the DLP 3D Ready projectors is frame sequential 3D
(as opposed to checkerboard, side-by-side, or over/under). The benefit
of using this format is that there is no compression of the image as in
the other 3D formats, but the drawback is that the projector must know
how to decode which frame is used for the left eye and which frame is
used for the right eye. There are many proprietary encoding and decoding
formats that will allow the frame sequential source material to insert
metadata into the content to mark each frame and have the display device
decode it correctly, but unfortunately, there is no mainstream standard
of how to do this with current 3D content. Current DLP 3D Ready
projectors, therefore, do not automatically support this type of
automatic left/right detection. Most, if not all, DLP 3D Ready
projectors have a menu control to invert the L/R sequence if a pseudo
stereoscopic condition exists. The same control also exists on most 3D
software and 3D compatible PC graphics cards.

In recent months, this 3D standard situation has changed with the
adoption of the HDMI v1.4a standard. This standard defines 7 different
3D formats that all display devices must support. Since it is a digital
interface, the content is in a fixed format and it is very easy for the
display device to know which frame is used for left eye and which is
used for right eye. Our more recent home theater 1080p DLP projectors
that support HDMI v1.4a (including BluRay) formats do not have the
problem of pseudo stereoscopic image display. As more and more of the
DLP 3D Ready projectors adopt support for the HDMI v1.4a standard, the
pseudo stereoscopic issue will no longer be an issue.

Sincerely,

DLP(r) Call Center
Texas Instruments
888-357-2984
www.dlp.com
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post #250 of 311 Old 12-21-2010, 06:09 PM
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Are they saying Acer is adding 3D support to the Acer H7530D? I am returning my 5360 pretty dang quick if that is true.
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post #251 of 311 Old 12-21-2010, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

Dear Mathew,

Thank you for your interest in DLP(r) Link.

You are correct that DLP 3D Ready projectors do not support the DLP HDTV
checkerboard input as the display devices used in our projectors and our
HDTVs are made differently. The DLP 3D Ready projectors do, however,
support 120 Hz or 60 Hz inputs as well as 120 Hz output frequencies.

The native format for the DLP 3D Ready projectors is frame sequential 3D
(as opposed to checkerboard, side-by-side, or over/under). The benefit
of using this format is that there is no compression of the image as in
the other 3D formats, but the drawback is that the projector must know
how to decode which frame is used for the left eye and which frame is
used for the right eye. There are many proprietary encoding and decoding
formats that will allow the frame sequential source material to insert
metadata into the content to mark each frame and have the display device
decode it correctly, but unfortunately, there is no mainstream standard
of how to do this with current 3D content. Current DLP 3D Ready
projectors, therefore, do not automatically support this type of
automatic left/right detection. Most, if not all, DLP 3D Ready
projectors have a menu control to invert the L/R sequence if a pseudo
stereoscopic condition exists. The same control also exists on most 3D
software and 3D compatible PC graphics cards.

In recent months, this 3D standard situation has changed with the
adoption of the HDMI v1.4a standard. This standard defines 7 different
3D formats that all display devices must support. Since it is a digital
interface, the content is in a fixed format and it is very easy for the
display device to know which frame is used for left eye and which is
used for right eye. Our more recent home theater 1080p DLP projectors
that support HDMI v1.4a (including BluRay) formats do not have the
problem of pseudo stereoscopic image display. As more and more of the
DLP 3D Ready projectors adopt support for the HDMI v1.4a standard, the
pseudo stereoscopic issue will no longer be an issue.

Sincerely,

DLP(r) Call Center
Texas Instruments
888-357-2984
www.dlp.com



What a revelation!! They've confirmed exactly what most of the people who have actually USED the tech (ie, not you) have been saying all along:

-You're right about how it works (except where you falsely state the frequency of needing to resync),
-You're wrong that it is a defect: the 3d orientation switch method is exactly as designed.
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post #252 of 311 Old 12-21-2010, 06:48 PM
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To me the most interesting bit is "more recent home theater 1080p DLP projectors that support HDMI v1.4a"! Where is such projector? I'll buy one in a heart beat if the price is under $3k...

regards,

Li On
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post #253 of 311 Old 12-21-2010, 06:54 PM
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I don't have a direct link off hand, but I think Sharp is planning a 1080p DLP PJ for sometime in 2011.
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post #254 of 311 Old 12-21-2010, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Are they saying Acer is adding 3D support to the Acer H7530D? I am returning my 5360 pretty dang quick if that is true.

The blue direct links you are seeing an unfortunate side effect of AVS making (selling) links to popular "buzz words", and are not in the original posts.
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post #255 of 311 Old 12-21-2010, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

What a revelation!! They've confirmed exactly what most of the people who have actually USED the tech (ie, not you) have been saying all along:

-You're right about how it works (except where you falsely state the frequency of needing to resync),
-You're wrong that it is a defect: the 3d orientation switch method is exactly as designed.

You are wrong again.
Only people with nVidia quad buffers have less trouble.
If you ran 120 Hz frame sequential from software directly
it does happen on every start, pose or glitch.
And the switch supposed to be only for installation of glasses just like on DLP-Link TVs that use checker board.

Mathew Orman
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post #256 of 311 Old 12-21-2010, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

You are wrong again.
Only people with nVidia quad buffers have less trouble.
If you ran 120 Hz frame sequential from software directly
it does happen on every start, pose or glitch.
And the switch supposed to be only for installation of glasses just like on DLP-Link TVs that use checker board.

Mathew Orman

I ***USE*** it -nearly every single day -, and do not experience this issue of losing sync at every start, pose or glitch as you describe. Since AMD launched hd3d with qb support I've yet to EVER have to set it in mid-use. You, meanwhile, continue spreading misinformation about something which you not only do not use, but obviously aren't as in-the-know as you think. ATI quad buffers on all 5xxx and 6xxx series cards were enabled in their drivers in September (and open to any developers, unlike nvidia). iz3d, tridef, and all bluray softwares were working with ATI to have their software utilize that function shortly after launch (admittedly, the first month was rough, you had to registry hack to get it working, but that's since been corrected). Since enabling them, NEVER have I had the eye switch without completely exiting and restarting the game or movie. Not once.


Meanwhile, the menu option to switch eyes was designed by **OPTOMA**, not icester. Therefore OPTOMA, being the designers of the menu options, get to tell us what they designed those menu options for, not icester. And they have told us that, by design, the switch is used to syncronize with displays at the start of movies or games.
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post #257 of 311 Old 12-22-2010, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

I ***USE*** it -nearly every single day -, and do not experience this issue of losing sync at every start, pose or glitch as you describe. Since AMD launched hd3d with qb support I've yet to EVER have to set it in mid-use. You, meanwhile, continue spreading misinformation about something which you not only do not use, but obviously aren't as in-the-know as you think. ATI quad buffers on all 5xxx and 6xxx series cards were enabled in their drivers in September (and open to any developers, unlike nvidia). iz3d, tridef, and all bluray softwares were working with ATI to have their software utilize that function shortly after launch (admittedly, the first month was rough, you had to registry hack to get it working, but that's since been corrected). Since enabling them, NEVER have I had the eye switch without completely exiting and restarting the game or movie. Not once.


Meanwhile, the menu option to switch eyes was designed by **OPTOMA**, not icester. Therefore OPTOMA, being the designers of the menu options, get to tell us what they designed those menu options for, not icester. And they have told us that, by design, the switch is used to syncronize with displays at the start of movies or games.

The same still stands:

You are wrong again.
Only people with nVidia quad buffers have less trouble.
If you ran 120 Hz frame sequential from software directly
it does happen on every start, pose or glitch.
And the switch supposed to be only for installation of glasses just like on DLP-Link TVs that use checker board.

Mathew Orman
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post #258 of 311 Old 12-22-2010, 08:17 AM
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LOL


Reality is irrelevant. Icester's version of it is all that matters.


Seriously, man, find somebody with an ATI card and dlp link setup on a 120hz projector and try it yourself. Your repeated restatement of the same thing in opposition to those of us actually *using* the device you're talking about is getting silly.

*edited to be less disrespectful*
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post #259 of 311 Old 12-22-2010, 08:56 AM
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Rut Roh...

That one may get you a time out....


I will be happy if I can just start any given content, sync it once and then let it play through. I do not pause movies / content in my theater very often if ever.
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post #260 of 311 Old 12-22-2010, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

LOL


Reality is irrelevant. Icester's delusion is all that matters.


Seriously, man, find somebody with an ATI card and dlp link setup on a 120hz projector and try it yourself. I'm starting to get kindof embarrassed by your willful defense of the rectitude of your ignorance.

No difference for ATI quad buffer if you switch from desktop to full screen or vice verse you will have the same 50% chance of getting pseudo-stereo.

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post #261 of 311 Old 12-22-2010, 10:07 AM
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So why would one switch full to desktop and back during a screening anyways?
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post #262 of 311 Old 12-22-2010, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

So why would one switch full to desktop and back during a screening anyways?

Many games do that and stereoscopic player does it as well.
But that is nothing compering to software page-flipping mode
where there is no quad buffer used at all.

Mathew Orman
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post #263 of 311 Old 12-22-2010, 12:01 PM
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I've never had stereoscopic player exit full screen until I told it to. I've got probably 50+ games in my library, and while I'm sure you are correct that *some* switch to desktop or change resolution at times, it's quite rare (none of mine). And who cares if software-only page flipping might have issues? NOTHING USES IT. Stereoscopic player: hardware hd3d. All bluray softwares: hardware hd3d. any directx: hardware hd3d. Software page flipping is irrelevant now.

Seriously, please, just stop. We understand the issue, no one is arguing with the validity of your basic statement. You're ***RIGHT***. Just please stop trying to exaggerate the impacts and listen to those of us using it every day.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

I've never had stereoscopic player exit full screen until I told it to. I've got probably 50+ games in my library, and while I'm sure you are correct that *some* switch to desktop or change resolution at times, it's quite rare (none of mine). And who cares if software-only page flipping might have issues? NOTHING USES IT. Stereoscopic player: hardware hd3d. All bluray softwares: hardware hd3d. any directx: hardware hd3d. Software page flipping is irrelevant now.

Seriously, please, just stop. We understand the issue, no one is arguing with the validity of your basic statement. You're ***RIGHT***. Just please stop trying to exaggerate the impacts and listen to those of us using it every day.

You've made another false assumption about applications that do not use quad buffers.
Also if you have no problem with pseudo stereo then
you do not need to post messages in my thread.

I want to hear from people who are concerned about it and
can provide input on how to correct the problem.

Mathew Orman
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post #265 of 311 Old 12-22-2010, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

You've made another false assumption about applications that do not use quad buffers.
Also if you have no problem with pseudo stereo then
you do not need to post messages in my thread.

I want to hear from people who are concerned about it and
can provide input on how to correct the problem.

Mathew Orman

When I see inverse stereo, it's a huge problem, but it's a problem that is easily corrected and doesn't return in the midst of a game or movie. I also have a problem with false statements being spread as truth, so when you make them, I'll post my rebuttals in order to ensure that no one new to 3d gets the false impression that this is a major issue.

Again, your falsehoods are clearly documented. What I've stated involves absolutely zero assumption, it's all in public documentation.

ATI HD3D is, by nature, quad buffered. It's the way AMD/ATI implemented 3d support: they built quad buffer functionality at a hardware level into their drivers. Therefore, any software which utilized hd3d architecture are quad buffered. That includes cyberlink, roxio, tmt5, stereoscopic player (starting with 1.66 if I remember correctly), tridef's latest version, and iz3d since 1.12. All utilize AMD/ATI's hd3d quad buffering.

Check the driver release notes for catalyst, it specifically says that. Check the release notes for the softwares above, they all specify the use of ATI hd3d architecture. This is documented, public information, not my word against yours. Look it up and please stop this crusade of falsehood: every word of misinformation you spread harms the adoption of 3d.


Do you live anywhere near Arkansas, or know anyone who does? PM me and I'll be happy to provide a demo to you with all the tests you want to see. Maybe you had a bad experience with some of the early implementations of 120hz 3d, or something, I dunno - but you really should find someone with a good current setup and see what you're missing.
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post #266 of 311 Old 12-22-2010, 02:26 PM
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"I want to hear from people who are concerned about it and
can provide input on how to correct the problem."

I am concerned about it. The easy solution is to buy a $15,000 1080p 3D projector with HDMI 1.4. Am I $14000 concerned about it? No. I will push a few extra buttons to switch sync when starting a movie, even if it is every other time. I gotta turn on my lights, turn on the comptupter, turn on the amp, make sure it is switched to the computer input and turn the volumne way up since movies are way quiter than computer games, turn the lights off, wait for the stupid fbi warnings and previews so I can pause the movie at the intro, go downstairs and get some butter from the fridge and nuke for 30 seconds, get popcorn out of the pantry and nuke, grab a glass and fill with water and ice and run upstairs and put in the theater room while the popcorn cooks, stir and nuke the butter for another 8 seconds. Get a bowl out and put the popcorn in, get the salt shaker from the cupboard and put on the popcorn and put it back, stir the butter and pour on the popcorn. Put the butter back in the fridge and grab a couple beers. Grab the opener off the fridge and pop one of the tops. Saving the other for later since one beer doesn't quite get you through a bag of popcorn. Put the dishes away and head back up to the theater room. Now I am ready to watch a movie. A few buttons on the remote to switch sync isn't a big setback.
Warren.
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post #267 of 311 Old 12-22-2010, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post
"I want to hear from people who are concerned about it and
can provide input on how to correct the problem."

I am concerned about it. The easy solution is to buy a $15,000 1080p 3D projector with HDMI 1.4. Am I $14000 concerned about it? No. I will push a few extra buttons to switch sync when starting a movie, even if it is every other time. I gotta turn on my lights, turn on the comptupter, turn on the amp, make sure it is switched to the computer input and turn the volumne way up since movies are way quiter than computer games, turn the lights off, wait for the stupid fbi warnings and previews so I can pause the movie at the intro, go downstairs and get some butter from the fridge and nuke for 30 seconds, get popcorn out of the pantry and nuke, grab a glass and fill with water and ice and run upstairs and put in the theater room while the popcorn cooks, stir and nuke the butter for another 8 seconds. Get a bowl out and put the popcorn in, get the salt shaker from the cupboard and put on the popcorn and put it back, stir the butter and pour on the popcorn. Put the butter back in the fridge and grab a couple beers. Grab the opener off the fridge and pop one of the tops. Saving the other for later since one beer doesn't quite get you through a bag of popcorn. Put the dishes away and head back up to the theater room. Now I am ready to watch a movie. A few buttons on the remote to switch sync isn't a big setback.
Warren.
Sure,
it only would be a problem for newbies who cannot instantly identify pseudo-stereo and end-up watching it.

Mathew Orman
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post #268 of 311 Old 12-22-2010, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icester View Post

Sure,
it only would be a problem for newbies who cannot instantly identify pseudo-stereo and end-up watching it.

Mathew Orman

Agreed, they should definitely be made aware. I just hope we can avoid crossing the line between education about an issue and scaring people into thinking a system works much worse than it actually does.
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post #269 of 311 Old 12-23-2010, 12:00 AM
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Someone posted this in the other forum, the upcoming Sharp Z17000 1080p DLP 3D projector.

http://www.sharpusa.com/AboutSharp/N..._XVZ17000.aspx

It uses DLP Link. With native HDMI 1.4 Input, the projector will always know which frame is Right or Left, so there won't be any eye swap problem like 720p frame sequential we are having now.

Looks like I will change projector again next year!

regards,

Li On
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post #270 of 311 Old 12-23-2010, 07:54 AM
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I like it but is it a 120Hz? The article did not say.
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